Two Weapon Fighting

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not see two weapon fighting anywhere in the rulebook. Why did two weapon fighting get taken out? I saw another post about Double Slice being the two weapon fighting of 2nd edition. Is this correct? Why?

Double Slice is it I think but others may have found other stuff hiding later in the book.

It looks like two-weapon fighting is more an assumption, than a feat. As in 'if you can hold it in one hand why not have two?' kind of thing. It also looks like rules for dual wielding are indirectly given in double slice. -2 circumstance on weapons not of the agile trait for the weapon being off-handed. If not using double slice it's probably an action to use the other weapon.

I don't believe there are any rules. Given the current action economy, and lack of full attacks, it makes sense that the old way doesn't work. Really, the only benefit to wielding two weapons is that you can wield an agile off-hand weapon, gaining the benefits of a main weapon in one hand while reducing your attack penalty, and damage, for the off.

I don't believe there are any rules. Given the current action economy, and lack of full attacks, it makes sense that the old way doesn't work. Really, the only benefit to wielding two weapons is that you can wield an agile off-hand weapon, gaining the benefits of a main weapon in one hand while reducing your attack penalty, and damage, for the off.

Where did you find any of that? I haven't seen anything about wielding two weapons at all, aside from Double-Slice and the Paired property.

It's mainly just the fact that you attack with a longsword in one hand (d8) and then take two attacks with the agile shortsword in the other (d6). Since the multiple attack penalty is being reduced thanks to agile, you have better odds to hit at the cost of lower damage on the follow up attacks.

Page 178: Multiple Attack Penalty

If you attack more than once on the same turn, your attacks after the first take a penalty called a multiple attack penalty. Your second attack takes a -5 penalty, and the third takes a -10 penalty. This penalty is untyped and cumulative with all other penalties.
The penalty doesn't apply to attacks you take when it isn't your turn (such as attacks made as part of a reaction), though these attacks often have their own penalty. You an choose a weapon with the agile trait to reduce your multiple attack penalty (see page 182).

Agile:
The multiple attack penalty you take on the second attack each turn with this weapon is -4 instead of -5, and -8 instead of -10 on the third and subsequent attacks in the turn.

The problem I'm having is, I don't fully understand how Double Slice works with multiple attacks, and why the 2nd attack is at a -2 if the weapon DOESN'T have the Agile trait.
Does this mean that the total penalty on the second strike without the Agile trait is at -7?

I was trying to figure this out, last night.

I came to the conclusion that without Double Slice, it's just another action to attack with a second weapon with the normal penalty for the second attack (and any other penalties that I don't yet understand).

Of course, that could always have been done in PF1 if your BAB was high enough to grant a second attack.

I also don't get what Double Slice is actually supposed to do. Isn't it the same outcome if I just attack something twice? What does the language about combining the damage of the weapons mean?

I think you can have two weapons and just use one or the other for any given attack. But that's not really two-weapon fighting. For actual two-weapon fighting, it seems to be gated behind the fighter and ranger classes with feats like Double-Slice. I'm really not a fan of this. There seems to be a trend of various combat feats and styles now being attached to particular classes like Power Attack being fighter only and cleave barbarian only. And classes seem focused on one particular build-style like paladins being tanky.

I strongly oppose this decision. In my mind the entire point of making everything feats was to allow for more diverse characters. This just restricts concepts and styles to particular classes. We should easily be able to make things dual-weilding dex-based barbarians, lightly-armored swashbuckling paladins, greataxe-wielding cleaving rangers and strength based bruiser rogues. But these options seem to be restricted now. This is a big step backwards. I really hope this trend is reversed.

I also don't get what Double Slice is actually supposed to do. Isn't it the same outcome if I just attack something twice? What does the language about combining the damage of the weapons mean?

Both attacks are at full BAB, the secon isn't -5. Also the damage combines so if enemy has damage resistances it only applies 1 time.

Thank you, ChibiNyan.

That helps.

Both attacks are at full BAB, the second isn't -5. Also the damage combines so if enemy has damage resistances it only applies 1 time.

Okay, thank you. I get the damage combination now. But my brain is still hiccupping over the last part of the feat description, where it says, "This counts at two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty."

I just want to understand your reasoning for why there's no penalty on the second strike.

Wait, I think I got it. The one attack from Double Slice counts as two attacks, and so technically the multiple attack penalty wouldn't apply until you made a third attack, at which point it would take the -10 penalty.

Am I right?

Wait, I think I got it. The one attack from Double Slice counts as two attacks, and so technically the multiple attack penalty wouldn't apply until you made a third attack, at which point it would take the -10 penalty.

Am I right?

Yes!

Double Slice requires two weapon fighting and its strong for the actions, at 14th level a fighter can get two-weapon flurry(also requiring 2 weapons) to gain 2 swings with both weapons in 1 press action. Combined with Graceful Poise Fighter style at level 16 they can use Double slice for their first two actions, take no multiattack penalties than use Two-weapon flurry for 4 attacks all at max attack bonus if i'm interpreting it correctly, and thats without haste. You can also then get the ability desperate finisher to do two-weapon flurry again for another two attacks at the end of your turn forgoing reactions, but im not sure if multi-attack penalties apply to that or not.

Double Slice requires two weapon fighting and its strong for the actions, at 14th level a fighter can get two-weapon flurry(also requiring 2 weapons) to gain 2 swings with both weapons in 1 press action. Combined with Graceful Poise Fighter style at level 16 they can use Double slice for their first two actions, take no multiattack penalties than use Two-weapon flurry for 4 attacks all at max attack bonus if i'm interpreting it correctly, and thats without haste. You can also then get the ability desperate finisher to do two-weapon flurry again for another two attacks at the end of your turn forgoing reactions, but im not sure if multi-attack penalties apply to that or not.

Graceful Poise negates the "counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty. Meaning normally attacks would be, no penalty/-5/-10. Double slice makes it look like this: no penalty(-2 if off-hand isn't agile trait)/-10/-10. two-weapon flurry you get: -8/-5/-10. DS+TWF= no penalty(-2 circumstance)/-10/-10. GP+DS+TWF= no penalty/-8/-10. GP+DS+DS+TWF= no penalty/-5/-10

They are all locked into the Fighter and Ranger class feats. There is: Double Slice, Twin Parry, Twin Riposte, Improved Twin Riposte, Two Weapon Flurry, Twin Paragon.

You can get the first few with a multi-class into Fighter. But you can't get access to most of those since they are >10 level feats and the multi-class only gives you up to 10th level feats at 20th level.

Graceful Poise negates the "counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple attack penalty. Meaning normally attacks would be, no penalty/-5/-10. Double slice makes it look like this: no penalty(-2 if off-hand isn't agile trait)/-10/-10. two-weapon flurry you get: -8/-5/-10. DS+TWF= no penalty(-2 circumstance)/-10/-10. GP+DS+TWF= no penalty/-8/-10. GP+DS+DS+TWF= no penalty/-5/-10

I might be reading it differently then you, Double slice(DS) with Graceful Poise(GP) is going to be +0/+0/-4 (Graceful Poise says it needs to be an agile weapon). Because of this unless you had haste going u could not use Two-Weapon Flurry(TWF) because to use TWF your attack needs to be a -8 of more. So if you had Haste on you could do DS+GP +0/+0/ strike from haste -4/ TWF at -8/-8.

Sucky thing is TWF won't stack with Agile Grace as you will Never get above a -6.

Double Slice has two uses - it applies Resistance only once, and the second attack is made at your full bonus (or -2 if it isn't an Agile weapon). The benefit from the first is obvious, but the benefit from the second isn't just +20% chance to hit - it also makes it easier to crit an enemy on the second attack, since you crit if your attack roll is equal to the target's AC+10. If you choose to make another attack that turn then you will take multiple attack penalties as if you had made two Strikes normally, so -10 with normal weapons or -8 with Agile weapons.

Two-Weapon Flurry is worded oddly, however. Once you are taking multiple attack penalties from two attacks (-8 For Agile or -10 for normal) you no longer increase it any further, so the second portion stating they don't count towards your multiple attack penalty doesn't actually do anything.

Edit: I meant Two-weapon Flurry in that last paragraph, not Graceful Poise. Darn brain.