Oooooh, if only Aegis (powered up) didn't weigh so damn much, I could totally throw her into foes. Maybe I'll throw Mud someday instead.
My best guess is that if you let go of me while I passed a foe, you'd probably need to roll breakfall (with minuses for speed) to not go prone, but you wouldn't have to worry about damage since you'd be desolid. I'll let mdt (or someone else with better Hero rules mastery than me) confirm or correct.
Clinging at full strength plus damage shield is one of the tricks I was insinuating, yes.
The counterpart to that, of course, is the "Seeker Special," in which a Martial Artist builds a persistent damage shield that only triggers when the character is grabbed or being restrained in some way by another character. I have some unkind thoughts about the logic behind that, but I won't editorialize. Suffice to say, it's effective.
Another fun one is the stretchy brick. Being able to exert your full brick strength at a distance is particularly fun. Especially if you buy it Indirect (you put your muddy arms into the ground and they pop up twenty meters away and smack the bad guy).
Mud could probably throw Aegis. That dude gets strong...
@Violet: Have you seen Janice's stats? She's basically only got one trick per form, but I and MDT tried to make them reasonably unique tricks.
Her vine form (mobility+defense) can stretch and gets decent combat boosts, but can't actually deal damage; essentially, she turns her arms into clingy vine lassos to trip/disarm/grab, exerting decent martial skill at range (not quite brick level, but martial artist level)
Flying form (mobility+offense) can deliver single, nasty, gravity/speed-powered dive bombs that should cut through most defenses, though they're pretty hard to set up
And tree form (defense+offense) combines brick defenses (30 PD/22 ED) with the ability to slowly paralyze enemies by surviving long enough to deliver a paralyzing dose of plant-toxins.
Another fun one is the stretchy brick. Being able to exert your full brick strength at a distance is particularly fun. Especially if you buy it Indirect (you put your muddy arms into the ground and they pop up twenty meters away and smack the bad guy).
Mud has this. Only 4" and Direct, though.
Ok, I need to take my time on this, so it'll be this weekend before I can get the fight set back up again.
Mud could probably throw Aegis. That dude gets strong...
@Violet: Have you seen Janice's stats? She's basically only got one trick per form, but I and MDT tried to make them reasonably unique tricks.
Her vine form (mobility+defense) can stretch and gets decent combat boosts, but can't actually deal damage; essentially, she turns her arms into clingy vine lassos to trip/disarm/grab, exerting decent martial skill at range (not quite brick level, but martial artist level)
Flying form (mobility+offense) can deliver single, nasty, gravity/speed-powered dive bombs that should cut through most defenses, though they're pretty hard to set up
And tree form (defense+offense) combines brick defenses (30 PD/22 ED) with the ability to slowly paralyze enemies by surviving long enough to deliver a paralyzing dose of plant-toxins.
I actually try really really hard not to look at other people's character sheets (in any game, not just forum games), unless the situation calls for it - so my checking out Aegis' sheet was to see if I could come up with some suggestions.
I'm a fan of Bricks exerting strength through Indirect means, because it can confound most of the primary-tier defensive maneuvers and HTH-combat foils. If the attack isn't coming from the same direction as the attacker, it suddenly becomes more expensive to defend against (other than straight up defenses - I'm talking special "no, you don't!" defenses, here).
Autofire for SFX attacks (like your lassos - autofire trip? BAD NEWS) is also pretty nasty. As is NND on portions of an SFX Brick's strength - so for instance, if Mud put NND on 50% of his strength, with the SFX "My mud gets into your nose and eyes and mouth and you lose your ability to focus on getting out of my grasp because you're too busy freaking out" (and made the defense "Life Support: Breathing"), you'd very suddenly find a lot of the bad guys doing their level best to get out of town when he showed up.
They're not actually autofire, just linked strength with "no figured characteristics, can only be used for non-damaging attacks." Also, they're my arms, so if they get chopped off I have to spend a minute or two regrowing them.
NND is a... tricky beast. It's useful against high-defense dudes, but not low-defense ones.
I was suggesting you consider adding autofire, not that you already had it. ;)
I would contend that NND is useful against everyone, equally, regardless of their defenses. The people it's usually not useful against are the outliers and the well-equipped thugs. The example of "Life support: Does not need to breathe" could easily be obtained by the Minions Of Doctor Lizardo, assuming they were all SCUBA equipped Frogmen. Or were otherwise equipped with breathing apparatuses.
The most esoteric NND I've ever seen was "Defense is not having flight" - which is technically allowable, considering it's a reasonably common condition, but was still a jerk move.
Autofire actually makes sense for Janice eventually, since she's learning how to control her body's distributed intelligence. But let's say that's a future plan. (Because of how fixed VPP works, leveling up any one of my forms means leveling up all of them).
The thing about NND is it does very small amounts of damage, so the only necessary defense is having high BOD or decent healing.
Different strokes, I guess. I don't personally consider the near-total guarantee that your attack will do guaranteed STUN against a target, with no defenses in the way, as "very small amounts" of damage. It might not do BODY, but it'll still do Knockback and almost certain defense-free STUN is nothing to sneeze at. There's a big difference between "35 STUN before defenses" and "35 STUN, no waiting." One is likely to irritate the bad guy, the other is likely to con-stun him every time.
And you bought your forms as VPP and not Multi-Form? As someone who's never liked the multi-form rules, I applaud this decision. :)
Err, right, sorry, having high STUN is the defense against it. With high REC and STUN, most NND attacks can't really touch you. (No NND is ever going to do 35, because the scaling is very different).
I started out with it as a multipower, but MDT suggested that was too complicated and gave me a VPP with six fixed slots. Only two of those wound up being based on the character I was inspired by (Black Orchid, my favorite superhero), but the other things we came up with were pretty interesting.
The basic premise is that Janice can only really control her shapeshifting via muscle memory (at least if she wants to become something useful and quickly); the six forms she can take are the six forms she practices in during superhero training.
Err, right, sorry, having high STUN is the defense against it. With high REC and STUN, most NND attacks can't really touch you. (No NND is ever going to do 35, because the scaling is very different).
Erm...
I'm honestly not trying to flog a horse, here, but... Are you sure we're both talking about the same thing?
NND is a multiplier that you place on a power. It's relatively easy to buy a 10d6 Energy Blast (50 points) and then slap an NND on to it (+1 Multiplier). 10D6 averages 35 most days. Now, granted, that makes the base active points of the EB rather a LOT, but if you've got the ability to do so (if your GM gives you the active point cap), then do it. Heck, if you make it a particularly easy-to-defeat NND, you can get that down to a +1/2 modifier ("Defense is having resistant defense", for instance).
I'm not sure what you mean by the scaling being different?
We're both talking 5th Edition HERO System "No Normal Defense Attack" modifiers, here, right?
It is late and I am tired, so perhaps I should have just gone to bed and answered this in the morning, but I am genuinely confused by what you mean, here, and honestly am trying to figure out where you're coming from in terms of NND's not being able to touch their targets. From my experience with HERO, the only thing worse than an NND is an AVLD, in terms of "well, it was nice being conscious while it lasted," at least.
In the long term it's not really important, I guess, but from one clearly long-term HERO player to another, I really am curious to find out what your experiences with NND's have been and how they've been so different from mine. :)
I started out with it as a multipower, but MDT suggested that was too complicated and gave me a VPP with six fixed slots. Only two of those wound up being based on the character I was inspired by (Black Orchid, my favorite superhero), but the other things we came up with were pretty interesting.
The basic premise is that Janice can only really control her shapeshifting via muscle memory (at least if she wants to become something useful and quickly); the six forms she can take are the six forms she practices in during superhero training.
Speaking of Black Orchid, did you feel, as I did, that she got the short end of things in Justice League Dark? I felt they really didn't use her properly, and basically resorted to doing nothing but questioning her loyalty and using her as a pocket brick when things got bad. Gross under-use. Just bad. :(
Edit to add:
Also, I just really, really, REALLY hate the Multiform rules. They actively punish the character for wanting to do something cool. Almost as badly as Duplication. :\
Well, for the NNDs, you also have to factor in that Kittiface doesn't let them be as strong, because well... NND. They might not be that expensive, but the logic behind preventing someone from CON stunning someone over and over and over and over...
Well, you get the idea.
If you look at the only NNDs he's added, he's been very careful not to allow NNDs to be reliable 'stun' effects, because it's just not fair. Likewise, I don't think we have to worry about being hit by NND Stun Clouds, despite how cheap (and effective) they may be.
Remember that Kittiface uses 'Damage Classes' which advance NNDs and Killing Attacks at different rates than the standard ones, in order to keep things at least at a modicum of balance. :)
Especially egregious if you treat those NND Stun Clouds as being different NNDs, each of which are being used in a team attack...
Oh! No, that's my bad. I thought NND damage scaled like killing attacks, but it doesn't. (Probably because of the way our GM limits it with damage classes).
I've actually never played HERO before, I just pick up systems really fast (and have done several eds of GURPS), which is why I think I know more than I actually do.
* * *
Justice League was a bit annoying. They took my four favorite DC characters (Black Orchid, Constantine, Deadman, and Swamp Thing) and put them on a team with some other cool dudes and then it just sort of went nowhere. I thought they used Black Orchid properly, but only for, like, one page. She's done better in some of the cartoons, but barely.
I make no promises to not hit you with stun clouds, or other area effect NNDs...
On the other hand, they won't be doing 35 stun either...
Damage Classes are a core concept.
1 Killing Attack Die = 3 Damage Classes
3 Normal Attack Dies = 3 Damage Classes
1 NND die = 2 Damage Classes
2 Autofire Normal Attack (x5) die = 3 Damage Classes
etc...
So, 1D6 RKA = 3d6 Energy Blast = 2d6+1 NND
Sorry, to correct myself: You don't have to worry about every badguy ever having AoE NND with huge stun, simply because they're strong, they should fit the theme, though.
Thematically, I don't expect to not see them, as they're a very wide variety of options (Pulse could get a flash electromagnetic stormcloud NND later. Basically all 'poison clouds' are likely to be NNDs, so on.)
On that note: AoE NNDs are particularly scary, as unless set up properly, you wind up with a basically impossible-to-miss ability that doesn't care about a target's defenses and then does 'a thing'. And that thing doesn't have to be stun or body. It can be a flash (think Flashbang), it can be a suppress or drain... etc.
Oh! No, that's my bad. I thought NND damage scaled like killing attacks, but it doesn't. (Probably because of the way our GM limits it with damage classes).
I've actually never played HERO before, I just pick up systems really fast (and have done several eds of GURPS), which is why I think I know more than I actually do.
Awesome, thank you for coming with me on that to get it cleared up. I was very confused because my point was "Here are some neat tricks you can do as a Brick where your strength is concerned" and it seemed a little odd to be talking about what I now see were differing concepts of what the neatness would be.
I've been playing HERO through five editions for the last 30 years, so picture me sitting here scratching my head and going "Muh?" and you'd have an accurate image in your mind of me, last night.
Super appreciate figuring out what the stumbling block was. Sincerely. :)
Justice League was a bit annoying. They took my four favorite DC characters (Black Orchid, Constantine, Deadman, and Swamp Thing) and put them on a team with some other cool dudes and then it just sort of went nowhere. I thought they used Black Orchid properly, but only for, like, one page. She's done better in some of the cartoons, but barely.
John Constantine is one of my favorite magician characters, and I'm grossly disappointed with the way he's been handled in The New 52. Recently, he's gotten a lot better, but I'm still missing the old Constantine charm. And bastardry.
Oh no, did I accidentally say "Justice League" when I meant "Justice League Dark?" Oh well.
Yeah, Constantine was always barely a part of the rest of the DC universe back when Vertigo was doing its own thing, and that seemed to work out better. DC, in general, I feel doesn't handle teams nearly as coherently.
Also bummed that Guillermo del Toro isn't working on the Justice League Dark anymore.
* * *
EDIT: I just realized Hotaru has "Physical Limitation: Disrupts Electronics with long term exposure." Dang. If Janice ever convinces Aegis to buy us $250,000 of DNA sequencing and analysis equipment (for her personal "is there a meta gene?" project), there might be some drama.
We keep Pulse out of the labs for exactly this reason. Although apparently she does have a shielded computer, now, so there is hope!
And I knew what you meant when you were talking about JLD and Black Orchid.
No Del Toro on the cinematic JLD makes me sad, I have to say. Hopefully we'll one day get Pacific Rim 2, though. One day.
Yup. I guess Hotaru didn't hammer home the 'no touchy electronics.' part.
Hotaru, look!
PEACH PIE.
Ok, done rebalancing.
Make your plans IC with the two new players.
Let me know when you're ready to attack.
Does anything change in the intro scene then? Sense of urgency?
Kittyface! I was looking at Aegis's sheet, and under skills/perks/talents, she's got 'Rapid Healing'. I'm guessing that's a naked power advantage on her REC? It seems to match up mathematically for a +1/4.
How does that work out, exactly? Heal body in 1 week as she normally would in a month seems right. Does it affect the faster stuff, too?
Snapdragon has Rapid Healing too. I forget what it actually does, but it's how she heals regular injury (since her modified regeneration powers only regrow limbs, return from death, and heal ability damage)
I think it just speeds things up on the time chart.
For every full one hour of rest he receives 1 Body back. It is not, however, regeneration. So scars form, tattoo's are ruined, etc.
Er, yeah, sounds appropriate. Janice’s “natural” form is roughly her, but with a number of green scars and/or bark-textured regrown limbs.
Rapid Healing is one of my favorite perks to give to villains, actually.
"How is this guy back in business a day after we threw him into a volcano?!"
Gets 'em every time.
Just a note to Janice, 'not killed by bullets' and 'nothing to fear from bullets' are two different things. :) And some people use force fields, which if they go down, let them get turned into swiss cheese...
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Yeah... but when I turn into a tree, my resistant PD is pretty darn high. And Janice is an optimist. :D
@Kittyface: Did they not have a Shadowcat style demonstration of what an armor piercing round does?
It's also odd how Hotaru says 'Phasing' and 'Knocks people out by running through them' and Janice goes 'I could probably grab and throw her!'
:P
If we make it through this alive, Rocket will get a full run-down of Violet's mental issues, in exacting detail, assuming Hotaru doesn't google them for him and tell him to run screaming.
@Kittyface: Did they not have a Shadowcat style demonstration of what an armor piercing round does?
I was wondering that, myself. Talk about your traumatic training experiences.
It's also odd how Hotaru says 'Phasing' and 'Knocks people out by running through them' and Janice goes 'I could probably grab and throw her!'
:P
OPTIMISM! :)
Yes, they did... it didn't appear to take...
It's also odd how Hotaru says 'Phasing' and 'Knocks people out by running through them' and Janice goes 'I could probably grab and throw her!'
If she's phasing all the time, this is a bad idea. If she only phases in bursts, well... martial throws are a *great* way to hurt speedsters.
Yes, they did... it didn't appear to take...
Sure, armor piercing rounds are nasty. But most average mobsters won't have any loaded, and Janice... isn't really taking this whole "deadly force is deadly" thing seriously yet.
I'm not gonna lie, in character? Violet is really scared at how many of the other characters think this is a game or a comic book.
Normalcy bias, dude. Take ten people, give them superpowers? Nine out of ten aren't going to take it seriously.
Also, like, Janice was a straight-A student with lots of friends and decent family money who's probably just not used to hardship or risk in life (aside from the brief "sort of dying" thing). Violet, Hotaru, and Whip have plenty of experience being frightened of things. But from what I can gather, Rocket is used to being a star athlete, Saffron is a rich playboy (girl?) closer to Tony Stark than Bruce Wayne, and Mud just hasn't really tested his limits.
Soldiers, hardened adventurers, even murderhobos we ain't.
Here's the crazy thing. Hotaru does take it seriously. You can't read comic books and think 'Super Powers are Sunshine and Rainbows!'. If you do... I'd like to know what it is you're reading, so I can avoid it :P
The issue is, Hotaru is Brash. Says so on the sheet. She'll do stupid things if she thinks she can help people (a constant for the characters I enjoy).
:)
The 'would be using normal bullets' is probably an oversight on your character's part. 'Run of the mill goons' who work for supervillains typically have flamethrowers or laser rifles, or whatnot. :P
See, out of character, I get the Normalcy Bias angle. I know for a fact that if I woke up tomorrow with the powers of Superman, I would lose my cool and freak out and maybe do some REALLY stupid things.
In character, Violet has had experiences such as her handler getting shot in the head while she was in telepathic contact with him, which is enough to make anyone think twice about going back out.
There's a reason she works so hard to make sure that her "family" is safe and happy, and it comes from knowing that anyone can die, at any time.
Though I have to say I'm a little amused by the way people are grating against "Business Time Violet." It's kind of fun.
As to Hotaru being brash, well, yes. (even though I haven't really read her sheet - I haven't read anyone's sheet unless necessary) She is that. :)
Hotaru is also a brat, I'm finding. :) And so far, Violet is the most fun target to mess with. The 'slicing out a quarter of the pie' thing was to make it look like she intended to take a quarter of the pie for herself. :)
It's even more amusing when you consider that I forgot to mention that Violet had secured an entire pie just for Hotaru (mostly since Rocket tends to eat everything that isn't nailed down or explicitly marked as for other people).
If you do... I'd like to know what it is you're reading, so I can avoid it :P
Janice hasn't really read many comics. This is December 2015, so she's seen all the Marvel movies through Ant-Man, but aside from that she's mostly just read Wikipedia articles on major heroes (and she has a good memory).
(I've been basing her casual knowledge off roughly the same things I'd know and mention in a conversation, except without any KS: Comics so not counting anything I've actually read)
I'm not gonna lie, in character? Violet is really scared at how many of the other characters think this is a game or a comic book.
Yea until the fighting starts Aegis is likely going to be bratty because of the 'spoiled rich girl' thing i was working with similar to iron man like thunder said and she'd become more team relevant and less cocky as it went on, if it's a problem or becomes one let me know and I can give her a change of heart
also while I am overplaying pretty heavy Aegis does need to drink or bad things
Just looked at the map. We're fighting two Jason Stathams. We're going to lose. He always wins in the movies.
cheers
I don't know, man, we have Abercrombie on our side.
I don't know, man, we have Abercrombie on our side.
I think Abercrombie changed characters and won't show up... unless that's Rocket
What IS a group of Statham's called, anyway?
A Transport?
A Huddle?
A Manly?
What IS a group of Statham's called, anyway?
A Transport?
A Huddle?
A Manly?
A Crank? An Accent?
A slaughter, obviously.
BTW: GM is waiting on the players to figure out what they are doing.