(2) - Dawn of the Metahumans

Game Master mdt

My tentative build modifications (incorporating 8 XP that I see listed for us in the tracker spreadsheet):

mdt or others, thoughts?

Sammy

The comment about a martial speedster reminded me of a speedster someone played in a game. THe above isn't him, but it's fairly close.

Not a super high OCV/DCV, about the level of a projector. But higher defenses, and unlike most speedsters, can go all day without running out of juice.

Plus it has the advantage of being able to hit 4 people as easily as hitting one.

@Rocket

Concerns
A) 10 OCV/DCV is already at the extreme high end. Going to 11 just makes it even harder, and means I have to start throwing cars at you, which will hurt you much worse than getting hit by another speedester or projector for 8D6 (because it'll be a brick doing 12d6). Pixie only does about 7-10 HP per round, so she's a steady drain on resources, but it takes a turn for her to be annoying. A speedster who can't be hit by anyone will get targeted ASAP (you guys would do it as well, hey Aegis, car that guy!). As the link above shows, more more more is not always the best solution. Sometimes versatility or spreading out the lighter damage to multiple targets is a better solution?
B) Teamwork can only be built up, it can't be learned completely in a couple of months. I believe I said in one of the threads, at most you can buy it as a familiarity (except for Whippoorwill, due to backstory).
C) You haven't even worked out with Violet yet, and you already have MD? So I can't hit you, can't ego you... the game is no fun if you're unhittable and undamageable... Being able to stop everything from affecting you might be great for Superman, but it's not a fun character to play...
D) I haven't given the exp out to spend yet. And you may want to wait and see if the group wants to buy things (like bases!) as that may cut into your awards. I allowed Aegis to spend 2 of her points, because that is only 1/4 of what you got, and I would never pull more than half for bases/followers/vehicles/etc from awards.

For those who are curious about Kestrel...

Her bow is a MP with 4 charges per slot. It's a 30 point multi-power (half the campaign max).

She has 8 penalty levels to negate called shot penalties with all combat (she hits you wherever she wants, nose, right finger, etc).

She has 6 penalty levels to negate ranged penalties.

She has 6 overall combat levels.

Basically, she is a pure skill speedster. She doesn't do a lot of damage, but she does consistent damage, and is hard to hit. This counteracted by low defenses (Combat luck) and normal characteristic maxima. She has flash defense (special effect, fast reflexes to close her eyes).

I want to ask about holding actions, because I felt really helpless when Ace held his action several times during the fight. I think I would have been more effective if I had closed with someone and fought hand to hand, but could Ace simply have moved away every time? Or worse, watched to see what I rolled, and then simply blast me mentally since mental actions go first? Am I always at a disadvantage unless I throw attacks at him that he knows he can ignore/withstand?

I was under the impression characters only spent END on STR once on any given segment, no matter how many times or different ways they use it. Applying an advantage on it, however, would muddy things. Especially one like autofire. That changes my END expenditure on a full barrage from 11 (3 for full STR and 8 for four claws) to 20 (3 for full strength and 2 for a claw, four times).

You did a bit different math, assuming only enough STR to get the die lowers expenditure by one for each strike brings END usage down to 16 for a full barrage. Painfully expensive, but potentially devastating.

You said HKAs only go up against Resistant defenses, and I'd like to state that they do for BODY, but if a target has ANY resistant defenses, ANY at all against an attack, they get to use their FULL Defenses, resistant or not, against the STUN.

With the Reduced Penetration you put on the Claws, the only time I'll ever do body is against someone with at most 5 rPD, cause 6 rPD will eat every point of BODY I can generate with my claws. However, if the same target had 25 normal PD on top of that, I'll also have to roll 11 Body total with an average 3 STUN Multiplier to do any stun at all. Or 7 BODY with a max 5 STUN Multiplier.

We'd probably not have to worry about over 25 total defenses, given your campaign parameters, though.

@Whip: From my understanding, Held actions must be spent in a very specific way. In the case of Great DM, we just have to trust him that he's doing what they're prepping to do, but when we do it, we need to set a condition. It's just like in pathfinder. 'When that speedster starts to run, I want to smoke feather the area right in front of him.' pr 'I will do my thing on Dex 12 of this phase' is also valid from what I understood.

Also, is it possible to buy Autofire for Whip's feathers? And allow her to throw more than one pin at a time? Tossing a smoke and a grenade in the same-ish space would be pretty neat, but not something she could ordinarily do.

Does Autofire specifically -not- stack for bypassing defenses? Is there a way to add 'fires simultaneously' to make it do that? Because that makes it -scary-.

You can't autofire two seperate attacks. That would require a multiple powers maneuver/them to be linked or combined in some way. She could, however, Autofire grenades to pepper a location with three explosions. She'd eat a crap ton of endurance to do so, though.

I've read over Autofire, and I swear there was a point in the rules somewhere that made it so Autofire attacks don't auto-coordinate/stack. They apply to defenses separately, that I found, but I can't find where it says what gets through is counted separately for CON-stunning targets.

EDIT: Okay, I found it, it was in the Fighting Section of Chapter Two and not under the Autofire Advantage itself.

Page 377. Second paragraph of Autofire Damage. :)

@Resistant Defenses - Sorry, I should have put that in the tutorial, I use the optional combat book rule where only resistant defenses defend against killing attacks. Deadlier Killing or something like that. So 5 resistant 50 non still only defends 5pts.

Holding actions either have to be : I go on Dex N, or I act on Trigger X. If it's I go on Dex X, they can't interrupt someone elses action. If it's I act on Trigger X, they can interrupt an action.

You are correct about spending end for str once per phase... except when using Autofire. Game-balance wise, it's too devastating a freebie.

The only way attacks 'add together' for stunning is when a specific rule allows it, such as Teamwork. Note, an autofire with teamwork would pick the highest damage from the autofire for the teamwork add, not all of them. So 3 grenades go up separately against defenses.

One of the GMs I play with in real life used that deadlier killing rule for a long while, and I don't like it personally. Even as I'm trying to get Drider to work well using a HKA, I would rather have nonresistant apply to my Killing Stun than be conned myself.

I could be very biased, however. Said GM had a tendency to throw 4/5d6 Killing Attacks at us. Even with my 22 rPD/rED, they utterly wrecked my STUN. As long as the Brick has 30 rPD/rED and Damage Reduction, I guess he thought that was "fair" to the rest of us.

You'll notice I used the killing attacks rather sparingly. Mostly to get people exposed to them.

Kestrel had a small one (2d6). And Transducer did too (also 2d6, but area of effect). If I use killing attacks, I usually prefer to go low dice with advantages, not super high.

Having said that, there are going to be people who show up and do a 6D6 killing attack. But it should be the exception, not the rule.

I'd rather do an uzi than a bazooka, a Wolverine AP/Penetrating than an Apokalypse Eye Blast, a Firestorm hand blast than a Superman Buliding Slicer.

By the same token, there will be people you just don't fight, you work around, you out smart, you run from and figure out a way to stop them without confronting them. Nobody beats Galactus, they just convince him to go somewhere else.

On a related note, my Claws can't overcome the DEF of my Entangle, BODY wise without pushing/haymakers. If I barrage a target in my Entangle with claws, how much stun does the Entangle prevent? Six for it's defense? Or Ten from it's combined DEF and (average) BODY? The way Entangle is worded, it almost sounds like the Entangled target is completely immune to damage until the Entangle is destroyed.

Yes, I had noticed that while creating your character. :)

It would prevent the defense, since the defense is resistant, the body is not resistant, so the target would not get the body as defense under the 'deadlier killing' rule.

Like I said, I'm not sure increasing the amount of dice on your killing attacks is necessary, given the rules I'm using.

It does mean I'm ignoring roughly 5 more points of defenses, give or take, than a Normal Attack. That makes damage calculations swing in my favor. As long as the 6d6 KA only come out when we're doing something COMPLETELY wrong, I think I can handle.

In any case, I don't plan on using the web blobs much, as I stated earlier. I'd rather Entangle at range. I'm trying to think of something to replace the blobs, but I'm drawing a blank on what to make in its place.

@Drider - If you don't want the EB, perhaps a force wall

Force Wall (5 PD/5 ED; 5" long and 1" tall), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (58 Active Points)

Probably with a limitation 'Degrades over one turn' so it doesn't get too obnoxious.

Since my flight sips endurance, is there other uses for it? I hear things like adding strength to damage, but I couldn't find it in the rules. Another rules variant?

Since my pinfeathers are limited and take a long time to grow back, I don't see autofire being viable.

You can use flight to add to str to hold things up, not to add damage. Not directly, unless you do a move-by/move-thru, in which case it adds 1d6 per 5" (or 3" for move through)

mdt, thanks for your feedback.

Does that build really seem superman-ish? If so, let's change it! I definitely will defer to you on balance issues, but my impression is that Rocket gets to act a ton...but he only has one attack that has a chance to get through peoples' defenses (movethrough), and when he's using it his OCV is 5 and his DCV is 7. (I realized that when I hit Violet with my moveby I forgot to do STR/2 so rolled too many dice: 9d6 instead of 7d6).

If Rocket hits with his movethrough, he hits like a brick (which is more than I'd intended), and if he attacks with anything else he doesn't seem to make a dent through folks' defenses (which is less than I'd intended). My inclination is to get rid of his 13d6 movethrough and replace it with several options that do ~9d6.

I agree that DEX is quite powerful for him and am happy not to add any more...but what do you think of my suggestion of transitioning to martial maneuvers so that his DC will be ~9d6 and his DCV will (in practice) be a 9 or 10 most rounds? I *like* that (with only an 8 rPD/ED or 14 PD/ED) he's very easy to knock over, and I think of DCV as really his only defense, so it makes me nervous to have it typically be at 7...but if you tell me you think that those defenses will work out, knowing the game you're planning, I'm happy to defer to you.

As far as mental defense, my hope was to make him not a complete pushover (but certainly *not* invulnerable). If 8 AP of nonresistant defense is too much for that, just let me know what the right amount would be. Again, I'm trying to build things because I enjoy building them and it's a useful part of my brainstorming and relearning the system...but I depend on you to tune things up or down for balance.

Thanks for all the attention you give to helping us master (or remaster) the system, and build balanced characters that match our visions!

Actually, I meant uses for endurance, not flight (although that's helpful to know). How do you add strength to damage?

At 11Ocv, targeting Hotaru, you'll hit about 98% of the time. She has 20pd, which means that with your 9d6 (I think) rapid punch, she would take an average of fifteen stun per hit. This means that in the time it takes me to get two rounds, I will already be unconscious (you go three times to my two). One of those rounds would be a force abort to force field, or street pizza. This also doesn't include any kickbacks incurred.

My reaction would be to throw a flash at you. I think your dcv for this maneuver is still 10. If that is correct, Hotaru needs to roll a 7 or less to try to stop you from going her on your next action. My average flash will be two, so that only saves me from one hit. And to make matters worse, you'll avoid that counter attack at 10 dcv roughly 84% of the time.

Bear in mind, Hotaru is not built to be combat-heavy, but in the entire fight so far, Hotaru has taken 16 damage. Only one of which is still 'stuck'. She seems to be fairly resilient, but also hasn't been focused at all.

How would the group feel about me rebuilding Goo as a bow user? I like Goo but we lack a consistent ranged attack and something about it, I just can't get rid of the idea. Anyway, what are your thoughts I really would like your input before moving forward.

I agree that increasing his DEX (and therefore raising his OCV & DCV above 10) is the wrong way you go. 9d6 * 3.5 = 31.5 average damage, or 11.5 past your defenses (or 7.5 past Violet's defenses, or 3.5 past Aegis', and of course it would do nothing to Goo.) It would do 15.5 past Whip's defenses...but with wings she's way harder for me to connect with. Since it's a martial maneuver it also will rarely do knockback (since martial maneuvers subtract an extra 1d6 from KB) though he'll have a maneuver that can knock someone down.

In terms of options for Hotaru, what do you think of making your Flash Area of Effect (1 hex)? That means you're attacking DCV 3 instead of the DCV of the person in the he'd.

They can still drive for cover but that wasted an action AND puts them at half DCV... Which I think is still a win for us, almost as good as if your foe was blinded. I think that that one change--if you like the direction--makes you a powerful battlefield controller without deviating from your “not a heavy hitter” image.

If I were to play Pulse v a speedster like Rocket, I'd try to hold an action to blind him while he's running. He needs space to decelerate and so you can completely ruin an action for him, possibly get him to run into something...and then get him set up for being pounded on by your teammates. With only a 14 PD, if Aegis punched him with her 12d6 punch he’d take 12*3.5=42-14=28 stun, be stunned (losing his next action) and more than halfway to unconsciousness. That punch would have a hard time connecting if Rocket were at his best, but after a flash (or forcing him to dive for cover to avoid a flash) it gets way easier.

Goo, I'm fine with you making a change if you prefer. You should totally do it. I thought of Whip as a ranged combatant but am realizing now she's built more for melee (with some cool ranged bonus options). I'm sure there's a ranged option for Goo if you wanted too, similar to Drider's ranged web attacks...but if you are more excited about a new concept, I say go for it!

Yeah, that was my bad. :p I was including velocity damage and forgot velocity OCV in the pool (which would drop you to 95% hit). But I now see that Velocity only matters for specific maneuvers. :p

I do like the idea of my starburst being a tiny aoe, but I don't think it's ideal. It'd give me a 91% chance to hit (barring modifiers) with an NND Stun and Flash. That's insanely powerful. I'd be sporting 1.8 seconds of cc per 3 seconds, which would absolutely wreck certain enemy types (Speedsters, specifically). It'd be way, way too strong, I think. I definitely like the idea, but targeting DCV 3 is just crazy powerful.

As for Archer... I'm happy to play with virtually anything anyone else wants to play. There are obvious limits to that, of course, but I don't have much of an issue at all, and it does cover one of the team's weaknesses.

Would it be more feasible to rebuild Whippoorwill into more of a ranged attacker?

Holy wall of text, Batman!

Jack's performing a bit under, although I'm sure he feels like he's performing a lot under. The dice roller hated him in the combat, with forethought and malice. I think Jack either needs another speed (to 5) or another DC in his martial arts.

I'd be really careful about boosting Jack. He's already got the highest OCV, DCV, and by far highest damage output at our table. He just rolled poorly, but that guy's definitely a combat beast. More martial arts levels might just be overkill, and more speed would run out his endurance; maybe we could just get him a glowy sword that does killing damage or gives armor divisor, so that his attacks can always deal damage to bricks like gridlock. EDIT: Nope, I was reading his stats wrong. Still, he got to roll 12d6...

Snapdragon is kind of a cross between a speedster and a martial artist. She's almost useless against bricks, but very good against speedsters and projectors. Given her inherent flexibility, I think she balances out well being slightly under for either class she's a mix of.

Heheh, I can do tons of things to bricks! I can trip them... or, I can trip them! Also I can trip them.

Possibly RC summons would be really fun, too.

Car familiars!

How would the group feel about me rebuilding Goo as a bow user? I like Goo but we lack a consistent ranged attack and something about it, I just can't get rid of the idea. Anyway, what are your thoughts I really would like your input before moving forward.

Goo is probably one of the most unique character concepts that I've seen, and I've been playing Champions through five editions and over 20 years. As a player, I would hate to see you change that concept just to "fit a role hole."

Also I kind of love Goo just because.

mdt: I just read Sammy. Great stuff there! I'll play more, but let me know if you have any other comments/suggestions too. I see you managed to do the thing I was talking about before--find a way to negate multiple attack penalties.

I'll keep from using XP for now, and keep Teamwork to just familiarity. (And I'd always intended to hold the mental defense until after he'd had a chance to practice with Vi and/or Ace.)

Vi & Goo: Goo is a very fun, unique character from my perspective too. I agree that I wouldn't change to fill a party role...and I think there are several directions that Goo could go mechanically that I think would be super fun to play...but if you're genuinely more jazzed about your archer build then you should go for it. (I'd rather be playing with folks who're really excited about their characters.)

If whip wanted shed make a great ranged instead of changing to a bow user goo could get a projectile attack maybe shooting goo bullets or something?

I think Pulse is Ranged so we do have some and aegis can throw Cars at people

Once I get her speed up I'll try to buff aegis tanking ability or maybe her regen because 12d6 seems like more than enough damage losing her block kind of sucks but I think I'd be better off just tanking more often than constantly aborting to try a block

mdt, thanks for your feedback.

Does that build really seem superman-ish?

Not quite supermanish, but on the way. :) Covering every weakness. They had to bring in kryptonite to give him a weakness. :)

I agree that DEX is quite powerful for him and am happy not to add any more...but what do you think of my suggestion of transitioning to martial maneuvers so that his DC will be ~9d6 and his DCV will (in practice) be a 9 or 10 most rounds? I *like* that (with only an 8 rPD/ED or 14 PD/ED) he's very easy to knock over, and I think of DCV as really his only defense, so it makes me nervous to have it typically be at 7...but if you tell me you think that those defenses will work out, knowing the game you're planning, I'm happy to defer to you.

I thought it was a fine idea, you'll notice I put up a similar concept that it reminded me of. The only issue I'd have is if he's hitting 9D6 with 9 or 10 OCV, as that puts him up with a projector for damage, but twice the OCV of a brick, if you see my concern? Even with lower defense. I would feel better about an average 8, and a 9 or 10 that's really likely to be either hard to pull off or hurt himself (IE: Charge = 10, flying strike = 8).

As far as mental defense, my hope was to make him not a complete pushover (but certainly *not* invulnerable).

Not that 8 is invulnerable, it's just that he's then not actually working toward gaining it in the game, he's starting with it. I have no problem with him building it up, but I'd rather he did it in game working with Violet?

Thanks for all the attention you give to helping us master (or remaster) the system, and build balanced characters that match our visions!

That's what a GM is for. No need for thanks. Just glad people are not taking it as 'you are dictating my character'. :)

Actually, I meant uses for endurance, not flight (although that's helpful to know). How do you add strength to damage?

Pushing is what you would want to use that END for. Pushing Strength, pushing Movement, spending for strength when punching.

I'm not quite sure what your question is on 'add strength to damage'. When you punch, or use a martial maneuver, the damage from that is directly based off your strength, and you pay endurance for it.

Example, your Offensive Strike is a STR+5d6 Strike. Your strength is 15, so you do 3D6+5D6 = 8D6 with that strike. You pay 2 END for the strength

As to Whippoorwill rebuilding as ranged, I'd hesitate to do that, just because the player has a mental image of the character, and altering it too much might ruin the fun.

Same for Goo.

Also agree with Pulse, AoE flash & NND a bit too good. As it is, NND is basically a Ranged Touch Attack.

For ranged, I would suggest that (A) you don't really need it, you've got high speed people who can close fast (Whippoorwill & Rocket), and you've got a mentalist, which is a ranged character. You've got medium speed people (Goo & Aegis) who can take hits while they close. And, Pulse has the ability to pick up ranged attacks down the road (flinging metal bits at people, Foci of Opportunity limitation, etc).

Metal surfing does have a rather clear growth into 'rail gun', doesn't it? ;)

There's also a ton of ranged on table 2--I'm the only one without it, and I still sttetch--but I don't think switching people around is necessary.

I thought about a Force Wall effect for Drider, but I can get a similar effect by using my Entangle to create barriers. I can't Abort to it like I probably could with Force Wall, but that's minor, I'd say.

I had toyed with the thought of either giving her a "tremor sense" (Ranged and Targeting on Touch Sense" by creating strands of silk to float in the air that she can feel disturbances with. Another thought was a Change Environment to reduce Running, Jumping, and/or Perception.

I quickly dismissed an Aid to her Entangle's DEF, as that would be rather rude. Her 6 DEF, 4 BODY holds you down, then she walks up and just spins more webbing around the target until it has 12 DEF? I'd call that a bit abusive.

EDIT: Unfortunately, it's a Web Multipower, could put a DEX or STR Drain neurotoxin in that slot or something, otherwise.

The difference between using entangle, and having a force wall, is that the force wall would be 5" by 1" on being created, where the entangle would be a 1" x 1" wall.

Not sure if the change environment would be as much help as you think, mainly because of the effect on your allies.

Entangle Barriers are one Hex long for every point of BODY in the Entangle, actually.

Okay, I am convinced. Goo is staying around.

DOH, what I get for not checking before I post. :)

They're one Hex tall and a half Hex wide, though. You might have been remembering that.

But yeah, I would like to have a nifty cool utility/lockdown something in that slot.

Going back to the Change Environment idea, I believe a 4" Radius (1" doubled twice) that reduces both Running and Leaping by 4" would cost about 40 Points, adding Costs Endurance Only To Activate would bring it up to the Multipower's 50 point limit.

Re Hotaru, I agree that a Flash+NND AoE:hex is too much, I forgot that they were tied together. Since it's in a Multipower, perhaps at some point--if you want--you could do a "more light than shock" version of it that drops the NND but hits a wider area. Could even be a cone.

Mmhmm. Prismatic spray!

I want too much.... :o

OK Folks. I'm changing characters. I've remembered that I'm not a big fan of M'Artists, and as MDT pointed out, Jedi is partially a Mentalist, too. Fortunately, our table doesn't have a brick, and that's what I enjoyed playing.

Yes, I thought about adding a lightsaber power to Jedi, but lightsabers are too deadly against anything besides other lightsabers. And I couldn't imagine Jack being deadly to anyone.

So the new character concept will build this guy. I've tentatively named him Adam Storm, code-named "Mud". His first order powers will be Mud Mimicry. After he's an effective brick, his second order powers will be Mud Manipulation. I'm thinking that he would be Susceptible to being immersed in water to the point of dissolving.

Any other ideas would be appreciated.

cheers

Would a secret organization like this just let Jack leave? Or would we just be retconning him away?

...it might be interesting if he came back as a villain. It would be thematically appropriate for a Star Wars-themed character, right?

Well... he does supposedly have a rival to show up and kill his father... Go all gormogon!

But, on the other hand, leaving was one of the options they gave us. 'We'll teach you how to control what you do so you don't hurt yourself or someone else, and send you on your way... unless you become a problem.'

He'd likely become an NPC working somewhere else. Or he'd simply leave, and promise not to use his powers. The organization would keep an eye on him, but he could leave.

As to Whippoorwill rebuilding as ranged, I'd hesitate to do that, just because the player has a mental image of the character, and altering it too much might ruin the fun.

I have a vision of what she has been. How easy/expensive would it be to increase her ranged capability through experience points and leveling?

Depends on whether you want to be able to do some damage, or real damage. To approach your HtH damage, very expensive.

Being able to do melee and ranged is expensive, in that you're buying two sets of powers.

Well, what else am I going to spend it on? :)

Also, I had meant for my "flare" quill to be a flash/blinding attack. I know Hotaru has a flash attack, so I don't know if it would be worth it to have another character with that.

Okay, so... because I am able to english, I am not incorrect in my reading of 'Find Weakness' that I could never have Hotaru go full-on Tricorder and then tell someone else where to shoot, correct?

You'd have to by it with usable by others to grant other people the effect.