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So I had a friend just make up his first character, and he wanted to go with a wild shaping druid. Based on the ancestry and class tables in the front matter, he decided to go with a Halfling - the Druid entry had no mention of STR, so he ended up after ABC having 10 Str.... until he came to the Wild Shape rules, where for some reason the number of shapes is based on Strength.... I have absolutely NO idea what the basis of that idea was... but he promptly went through and completely remade his character as a dwarf instead...
A bit frustrating.
I like it thematically it gives a good reason to have a Strong druid. I actually preferred the old way where beast from was based on your own stats but I understand that was a lot of math potentially.
I'm okay with them wanting to make a strong druid - I think that'd be cool - but it is not well described that you might need it until the last stages of character creation, and then even with that, it seems to only affect one part relatively minor (yet central) part of the entire character concept.
We have a player who is dealing with this same thing. Previously STR wasn't as important as wild shape made up for this because of what you turn into. But STR being core as opposed to WIS does not make sense to us. We've been looking through the book trying to put together the logic for this because we're just trying to understand at this point. But it is very frustrating, they too got to the class and realized they had to change their build.
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Well Str has absolutely no effect on Wild Shape. Unless you have a specific 10th level magic item. Or are a Wild Order Druid. If you are a Wild Order Druid you get Str mod uses of the Wild Shape feat, instead of just 1.
I'm okay with them wanting to make a strong druid - I think that'd be cool - but it is not well described that you might need it until the last stages of character creation, and then even with that, it seems to only affect one part relatively minor (yet central) part of the entire character concept.
That is a very good point. If one of my players wants to make a wild druid I'll be sure to warn them. And hopefully in the CRB it will be listed with the other needed abilities.
I think the best 'fix' for this would be to base the wild shape points on CON instead. Con is listed as a secondary stat for druids, and as far as I know, has no actual druidic use.
In addition, I can't see how, flavor wise, Strength has bearing on how many times you can change shape. To me, it should be either Wisdom, to reflect how strong your connection to the primal magic is, or on Constitution, to reflect just how well your body can deal with the changes.
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I like it thematically it gives a good reason to have a Strong druid. I actually preferred the old way where beast from was based on your own stats but I understand that was a lot of math potentially.
They should really look and 3.5e PHB2 druid variant.
Shapeshifter:
At-will, swift action
at 1st level you got +4 str and +4 AC(natural) and one bite attack
at 8th level you got +8 str and +8 AC, large size and bite and claw attacks.
there were some other shapes but I'm not at home ATM to look it up.
It was simple, based on your humanoid stats so you cant dump physical stats to be effective shapeshifter.
Yea currently you basically need to put your 2nd highest stat into STR, probably a 16. Does that give you 3 wild shapes in a day or 4?
Would Str 10 give you 1 wildshape?
Would Str 12 give you 1 wildshape (or 2) ?
As written, STR 10 (+0) would give you 1 wild shape. STR 12 (+1) would give you 1 wild shape. STR 16 (+3) would give you 3 wild shapes.
Is strength important to wild shaping? How do they relate to each other outside of the number of times you can wild shape?
I believe when you wild shape you take the stats of that form including strength so does that mean that the only thing a higher strength is doing is increasing the amount of times you can wild shape and that's it?
It matters for when you wear druid vestments(level 10 item) and you want a higher attack bonus. All wild druid will probably get druid vestments at level 10. I actually wish they let wild druids have an 18 str at 1st level since wisdom doesnt help much for them.
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It matters for when you wear druid vestments(level 10 item) and you want a higher attack bonus. All wild druid will probably get druid vestments at level 10. I actually wish they let wild druids have an 18 str at 1st level since wisdom doesn't help much for them.Is strength important to wild shaping? How do they relate to each other outside of the number of times you can wild shape?
I believe when you wild shape you take the stats of that form including strength so does that mean that the only thing a higher strength is doing is increasing the amount of times you can wild shape and that's it?
That is a ridiculously limited reason for strength to apply at all the the wild shape mechanic, and designing a class around a specific item seems to be very much against the design philosophy of pf2e.
Wild Claws benefit from a high str for those times you don't wild shape. Also without druid vestments the form spells, especially the low level ones that max out at 5th level heighten, would be very weak. Low AC and Attack Bonus would have druids never using animal form. Maybe the form spells should use wild druids stats when wild shaping in the first place without druid vestments but it isn't much different than the investments all melee focused druids used in 1st edition with the wild armor.
I asked Mark the same question when the druid blog revealed that wild druids need strength.
His resonse was the following:
Magic-pseudo-explanationwise, the more you've trained up your muscles, the more they can handle shifting into these more taxing forms.
Conceptually for the character, it's good to have a strong incentive for the specialist in beating things up who gains powerful claw options and is otherwise a scrapper when in their wild form to not be a weakling when in natural form, especially so you don't wind up playing a character that has to wait around for several levels until it gets a nasty battle form before it kicks in (you can still do that and play the scrawny weakling who becomes a powerful animal if that's your concept, but the added benefits for putting in some Strength make it an actual question of what you'll want to do).
Basically, a wild druid is supposed to be something of a melee character. Of course, the Claws you gain from your level 1 power have the finesse trait, making the whole thing seem a bit wonky.
It does however make some minor sense if you consider that wildshape is useless in combat before level 4. So a decent strength will allow you to go into melee earlier.
Starting with strength 12 is probably enough for a wild druid. You can't use wild shape much before level 4 anyway and you can get an additional use with a strength boost at level 5. but yeah, mentioning it somewhere would be a great help, especially for new players.
Page 182 under finesse it says "You can use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier when making an attack roll with this melee weapon." So it seems to me you can use your strength if you want. A waste of a trait but doesn't hurt high str druids wanting to use Wild Claw.
Having only 2 Wild Shapes are level 5 seems rough. You'd have up to 4 by 10th level if you started with a 12 str. 14 seems more realistic to me but if you start with a 16 then by level 15 you'd have 7 wild shapes if you had a belt of giant str. Starting with a 14 you'd get your 7th at level 20. tbh it would be the extra bonus to hit with the help of the druid vestments that I'd be more worried about missing out on since a wild druid will need every bonus since he's only trained in any melee attack. Realistically Dragon Form has a high enough attack bonus until level 18 heightened to level 8 but elemental form and lower level forms will lag behind by level 15 and earlier without druid vestments and a good str.
It is weird that wild druids need to have 2 pools to track. Spell Points which can be spent on Wild Claws and Call of the Wild and whatnot derived from wisdom and Wild Shape points derived from strength. With being forced into using your own attack stats because wild shape (even the highest level of dragon shape gives a +26) having such a low attack bonus (in my earlier post I hadn't even taken into account having a quality bonus from handwraps so by level 15 I could get a higher attack bonus than the level 8 spell can give 15+6str+3handwraps+3legendary=27 assuming minimum level to gain the handwraps and belt of giant str and starting with a 16 str).
It is weird that wild druids need to have 2 pools to track. Spell Points which can be spent on Wild Claws and Call of the Wild and whatnot derived from wisdom and Wild Shape points derived from strength.
It works exactly the same with clerics who have two pools for channeling (based on Cha) and Domains (based on Wis). In that case I believe the idea is to admit that Clerics are going to be called on to heal a whole bunch, so we should just give them a separate pool for just that so they can spend the rest of their resources on whatever they want.
I'm guessing it's much the same with the druid who is going to be expected to shapechange from time to time, so doing that doesn't eat into your other resources. Less fundamental than healing but still part and parcel to the class.
It is weird that wild druids need to have 2 pools to track. Spell Points which can be spent on Wild Claws and Call of the Wild and whatnot derived from wisdom and Wild Shape points derived from strength.It works exactly the same with clerics who have two pools for channeling (based on Cha) and Domains (based on Wis). In that case I believe the idea is to admit that Clerics are going to be called on to heal a whole bunch, so we should just give them a separate pool for just that so they can spend the rest of their resources on whatever they want.
I'm guessing it's much the same with the druid who is going to be expected to shapechange from time to time, so doing that doesn't eat into your other resources. Less fundamental than healing but still part and parcel to the class.
I am all for a class having a reason to have a secondary stat and having mechanics to help support it like Wild Shape. To me it makes sense to have the melee druid have to invest in the melee stat. I just don't think there's much reason for a wild druid to care about wisdom. Wild druids need to be able to hit their target and even crit.
For the other 2 physical stats a high con would be nice but if you start with a 12 then by level 15 you'd have an 18 which is plenty, plus wild shape gives extra hp. You only need a 12 dex because wild shape doesn't remove max dex bonus for armor and since general feats seem weak and wasting one on heavy armor doesn't seem like a hard choice. Also the form spells actually have a decent AC. So you then choose between int and chr for your 4th stat.
Off topic I'd like to say I dislike Form Control and Elemental Form sharing the level 10 spot. I guess I rather they give Wild Druids Form Control has a bonus for taking Elemental Form but that may not be balanced haha. Or maybe if Wild Druids take 5 Wild Druid Feats they get Form Control and let non wild druids make the choice at 10th level.
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I am not totally against strength, but constitution still looks more appropriate for the ability.
First, metaphysically, to sustain the form you rather endure the changes then hold them with brute force. You do it with your whole body, not only muscules. It is "how many times you can endure it". Like fortitude saving throw for polymorph spells (see Baleful Polimorph).
Second, strength comes online for the wild form only at 10 lvl, when the vestment appears (or not :-), while everything constitution gives you (hp, fort save) are allways with you. Wild shape (properly heightened and chosen) is usually better then level+6 attack, which is effectively Strength 22 character. Considering magic items you can get Strength 18 from the belt, so 10 base strength attack differs from 20 base strength attack only by +2.
Third, constitution is marked as secondary skill for druid, but strength is not. Of course it can be changed, but it is confusing for now.
Last, you allways can have heigh strength and constitution if you want. But now you are forced to have heigh strenght. What if I don't want to have heigh strength and to be a melee character? I only want more shapeshifts a day.
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Constitution makes more sense to me than Strength for Wildshape ability, due to organic chemical changes taking place, especially to elemental types. Strength is just muscular mechanical property of the organ.
I am not totally against strength, but constitution still looks more appropriate for the ability.
First, metaphysically, to sustain the form you rather endure the changes then hold them with brute force. You do it with your whole body, not only muscules. It is "how many times you can endure it". Like fortitude saving throw for polymorph spells (see Baleful Polimorph).
Second, strength comes online for the wild form only at 10 lvl, when the vestment appears (or not :-), while everything constitution gives you (hp, fort save) are allways with you. Wild shape (properly heightened and chosen) is usually better then level+6 attack, which is effectively Strength 22 character. Considering magic items you can get Strength 18 from the belt, so 10 base strength attack differs from 20 base strength attack only by +2.
Third, constitution is marked as secondary skill for druid, but strength is not. Of course it can be changed, but it is confusing for now.
Last, you allways can have heigh strength and constitution if you want. But now you are forced to have heigh strenght. What if I don't want to have heigh strength and to be a melee character? I only want more shapeshifts a day.
I personally have no problem with it being con, but they would need to fix attack bonuses for the form spells if it was. It is woefully low. I understand people not liking druid vestments being necessary but, as written right now, they are and with a high str needed also to be a good wild druid past level 10. By level 10 you get elemental shape. +15 to hit. A battle cleric will have 10(level)+4(Str)+1(quality)+2(potency) for a total of 17. Melee classes will be even higher.
Maybe their should be some added bonuses to the forms given by the wild shape focused path. You don't want it to over shadow the martial classes but you want it to be effective never the less.
Constitution makes more sense to me than Strength for Wildshape ability, due to organic chemical changes taking place, especially to elemental types. Strength is just muscular mechanical property of the organ.
It's intended as a balancing factor. You're paying for the synthesist summoner's sins, essentially.
Alternatively if they just allowed attributes to have some sort of an effect on the form I suppose that is moving backwards however?
It's intended as a balancing factor. You're paying for the synthesist summoner's sins, essentially.
It's more like you're playing for the sins of CoDzilla, from the days when 3.5e Druids could dump their physical stats and roam around slaughtering monsters better than a Fighter.
That was why they made wild-shaping in PF1 use your own physical stats (with bonuses) rather than the stats of the creature you were becoming.
If they're sticking with short-duration wild-shape for PF2, this no longer seems necessary.
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A battle cleric will have 10(level)+4(Str)+1(quality)+2(potency) for a total of 17. Melee classes will be even higher.
As I understand, quality and potency do not stack, as both are item bonus.
And Elemental Form is 5 spell level. So you actually can use it as prepared from 9th. At 10th level druid is just able to use it through the Wild Pool.
So they are practically equal. That's Balance :- ))
For the melee classes, they will be very disappointed if a druid (full caster) performs the same in their trade :- )
A battle cleric will have 10(level)+4(Str)+1(quality)+2(potency) for a total of 17. Melee classes will be even higher.As I understand, quality and potency do not stack, as both are item bonus.
And Elemental Form is 5 spell level. So you actually can use it as prepared from 9th. At 10th level druid is just able to use it through the Wild Pool.
So they are practically equal. That's Balance :- ))For the melee classes, they will be very disappointed if a druid (full caster) performs the same in their trade :- )
I chose 10th level because that's the item level listed on druid vestments. Also thanks for clearing up quality and potency not stacking for me. It isn't balance because druids don't get better like everyone else does at hitting someone when they level. A level 10 druid is the same as a level 9 in melee with their elemental form spell. The attack bonus with a spell is supposed to be helpful, not be a penalty. Druids should be able to use their own stats in place of the spell or wild shape if they're better than the spells without needing druid vestments. What's funny is heightened animal form (5th) is has a +16 to hit and with double damage dice does 4d8+7 damage in bear form.
When i play a wild druid i want to be a melee class. My biggest hope for this modular edition was druids bring able to sacrifice casting spells for melee. It happened in so far that they'll cast form spells to give extra weaker at times form spells. Wild druids don't need spell casting prof or so much wisdom. I'd be fine losing more casting if it means better wild shape. That said i purposely didn't list a fighters attack bonus at 10th for the very reason i expect a fighter to be better.
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Polymorphing should either use the spell's statistics or your own, whichever is higher. This way, the spells are most useful by spellcasters built as combatants, but still useful for others.
It's also an anti-pattern to have wild shape scale with Strength when polymorphing completely negates the benefits of having a high Strength.
It's also an anti-pattern to have wild shape scale with Strength when polymorphing completely negates the benefits of having a high Strength.
I believe this is deliberate to disincentivize people from having very low strength become not an issue once they can transform into something that replaced said strength.
Plus, given that wild shape uses are limited, and a wild druid probably wants to be in people's faces, it makes sense to have that druid being compfortable in a "stand and bang" situation whether they are a dinosaur or not.
We just need some heavy armor options which aren't metal, and 18 Wis, 16 Str, 14 Con dwarf wild druids will be fun.
I think the wild shape and similar forms should, thematically, be animalistic forms of the base creature. Meaning I want the druid in bear shape to look like the druid in bear shape - not 'generic bear number 3'. Look at the amount of variation between members of the same species, and you'll see that not all black bears, for instance, are created equal. This is one of the reasons I really liked the pf1e version of the polymorph rules, because the base creature's capabilities were still reflected in the polymorph'd creature.
I don't worry about the druid putting fighters in their shadow - the duration is still a limiting factor, and mostly dedicated to those 'we need the green guy' moments.
I think the wild shape and similar forms should, thematically, be animalistic forms of the base creature. Meaning I want the druid in bear shape to look like the druid in bear shape - not 'generic bear number 3'. Look at the amount of variation between members of the same species, and you'll see that not all black bears, for instance, are created equal. This is one of the reasons I really liked the pf1e version of the polymorph rules, because the base creature's capabilities were still reflected in the polymorph'd creature.
I don't worry about the druid putting fighters in their shadow - the duration is still a limiting factor, and mostly dedicated to those 'we need the green guy' moments.
Another point on putting fighter in druids shadows is that druids are already 2 actions down on a fighter just by using wild shape. That itself puts druids behind fighters even if they had the same attack bonus and damage.
The other problem I see with how the wild shape feats ignore existing mechanic - is where does this leave the Druid (wild) + Fighter multiclass? This is something that should be totally viable, but is there any indication that fighter abilities will impact the capabilities while in wild shape?
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When i play a wild druid i want to be a melee class. My biggest hope for this modular edition was druids bring able to sacrifice casting spells for melee. It happened in so far that they'll cast form spells to give extra weaker at times form spells. Wild druids don't need spell casting prof or so much wisdom. I'd be fine losing more casting if it means better wild shape. That said i purposely didn't list a fighters attack bonus at 10th for the very reason i expect a fighter to be better.
Unfortunately it is not modular enough and druid is supposed to be a caster for now. But you actually have the vestment and you can boost the strength. Only weapon proficiency is missing for now if I do not miss something.
The other problem I see with how the wild shape feats ignore existing mechanic - is where does this leave the Druid (wild) + Fighter multiclass? This is something that should be totally viable, but is there any indication that fighter abilities will impact the capabilities while in wild shape?
I suppose the same as for the fighter. The biggest problem is that you just do not have "feat space" for multiclassing. Each time you get class feat you probably spend them on ___shape feat, not the fighter multiclass feat. But that is probably a problem of the multiclass system.
At least they could make those expertise spelcaster class feats (those 12, 16 and 19 level) modular, not frozen. So you could go fighter instead.
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I think the problem with Wild Shape as it stands now is that the difference between a Druid in Wild shape and a Sorcerer casting the spell is insignificant, maybe some hit points but that is it. Instead the wild feats should offer some minor benefits to all forms you take rather than just offering forms you have to have to level up. Something like Animal form druid feat increases your athletics in all form by +1. This way the Wild Shaper is a slightly better shapeshifter than the other caster classes.
Shapechange as a spell needs to be thrown out. It doesn't work at its current duration since you can just pick that spell heightened, expecially on a spontaneous caster chassis. It need to be replaced with an ability to increase the forms to a level 9 version.
As it stands right now there is no wild shaping for combat before level 4 (with the feat) and after level 15 (nothing increases beyond this point) until level 20 with 1/day Nature Incarnate.
Druid Vestments should not be an item just to let you use your own stats. This should be built into the spells. Druid Vestments should give you a minor boost while in those forms or let you increase your wild shape pool by 2.
I would also love to see Wild SHape be a single action. This would allow two things, first spending a round buffing with both a spell and wild shape and 2 letting you do the Wild shape move and attack routine that would be very cool. Also having more compat related options for wild shape druids at higher levels to fulfill the roll of secondary fighter would be awesome.
For druid vestments i think of them like the wild armor enchants from pf1 to let you use your armor bonus to ac. Attack bonus should be based on your level. It'd be cool if form spells gave something like attack bonus is equal to prof+item+x. I can live with druid vestments as is but i would prefer the spells to work differently for attack bonus. Wild druids should have a weapon expense from level 1 even if they are handwraps.
On what page in the PF2 Rulebook is Druid Vestments, as I am unable to find this item?
On what page in the PF2 Rulebook is Druid Vestments, as I am unable to find this item?
Page 388.