Cavalier, How to get the most out of the Lance?


Advice


So, If you where a medium sized Cavalier, With a Medium Lance, How would you get the most damage out of your lance on a mounted lance charge?


Power attack, wield your lance two-handed for the extra damage. Spirited charge means your lance charge does triple damage, including all that str and PA damage.

More importantly, make sure you can consistently get those charges off in the first place. Trample at the bare minimum, but a flying mount is the best bet.


Wheeling charge may be better than trample if you can get it. What sort of level are you looking at though?


Oh! Sorry, I was thinking arround level 10.

Thanks for the replies! I realy like the Cavalier, But I only played one so far (Halfling Cavalier on a wolf, Because I loved the idea of riding a wolf as wolves are my favorite animal.. xD) And I realy want to try it again so I'm thinking of making my next character a Cavalier, And started pondering stuff about them.


Right, so you want order of the sword for their level 8 ability. Adding the mounts strength as well is a decent bonus to the charge damage (especially if you take the beast rider archetype or the beast rider feat; these are different) and the other parts are decent too.

You'll get five general feats, two bonus teamwork feats, one bonus combat feat, and one bonus feat from order of the sword's mounted mastery by 10th level, assuming no multiclassing. Possibly one more from being human. Your mount has five feats and may have a bonus feat or two from an animal companion archetype like daredevil or totem guide.

You may want pack flanking (shared with your mount via tactician), and if so both you and your mount probably want outflank. Your mount will need lunge to make that work properly.

You can probably afford a magic item of flight for a non-flying mount by then which is good because cavaliers don't get a lot of ways to get a flying mount; spending two feats on monstrous mount + mastery is the only way I can think of.


Thanks! ^_^


* Unless you're going to be 20th level, multiclass, because it's a pain to tuck in all the feats if playing from 1st. For example, one level of fighter[Dragoon] gets you Mounted Combat and Skill Focus(Ride), one of which is mandatory and the other very desirable when your mount becomes a viable (and ongoing) target.

* The Fighter[Drill Sergeant] archetype will net you three feats (one a Teamwork via Tactician) in two levels. This enables taking cavalier and alternatives that forfeit Teamwork, such as Samurai or Gendarme -- which is the one the lance-charger is likely most interested in, and especially since it doesn't forfeit the Expert Trainer class feature (more on that below). Note that Drill Sergeant won't provide its third teamwork feat (via Tactician) if you have a cavalier archetype that also has Tactician.

* Indomitable Mount is a neigh mandatory feat by mid-level, as otherwise your mount will be subjected to a lot of saving throws.

* Pack flanking is great, but won't work all the time, such as when you're lance charging (because your reach with the lance is greater than the mount, so you won't receive the +4 at the moment of impact; the mount would be +4 on it own attacks, however, provided you haven't been disarmed; if you're fending off adjacent opponents with short weapons, then you're fine).

* Some GMs won't let you get away with the Pack Flanking + Lunge trick (they'll argue that the rider, by dint of being mounted on the lunging animal and moving in tandem with it, will always have greater reach, and thus perfect overlapping of the threaten zones of his mount and his lance's sweet-spot isn't likely).

* One way to get around non-overlapping threaten-zone problems is by multiclassing Hunter (typically three levels, because Hunter's Tactics is the sweetest nectar) in the archetype Primal Companion (which lets you drop a few Evolutions on your mount, one of which will be for increased reach).

* The feat Boon Companion let's you multiclass away up to four levels of non-mount-raising classes care-free, and Horse Master lets you have any number of levels of non-mount-raising classes -- but you cannot be a cavalier archetype that forfeits the Expert trainer class feature (which is prerequisite for the feat).

* If you multiclass a lot, your will save will be trash. Actually, it'll be trash even without multiclassing. Plan accordingly.

* Look at your character design at, say, 12th level. Is there one feat in the entire build that you could maybe do without? ...If the answer to that is "yes", then consider not being a human.

* Don't dump your Dex too much (because Ride is a Dex skill, which factors into Mounted Combat and Indomitable Mount checks).

* Don't overemphasize damage (because you'll be doing a crapton anyway) at the expense of maneuverability (Wheeling Charge, etc) and survivability (Indomitable Mount, etc). For example, Weapon Specialization:Lance will only net your +6 on a Spirited Charge, and you're probably doing over a hundred by mid-level anyway. Even the pile from Order of the Sword can look small if you're beastly strong.

* Very desirable items: Vambraces of the Tactician and Champion's Banner.

* When money permits at mid-level, purchase a Daikyu of Commanding Presence (and they're another reason to not dump Dex).


Bea small on a medium animal
Less damage but WAY more charges in.

Risky striker,power att, mounts str and there is no point in smite. Its a 1 shot charge.


Also:
Take 4 hunter levels and get :
1. Team feat with the mount.
2. Pack flanking = +4...escape route is no aoo movement.
3. Take reduce animal spell so your large wolf is now medium with super str....

Grand Lodge

Risky striker does not work on a charge.


I am going to go a bit away from the central premise (helping the cavalier's charge) in order to try to make the charge more 'useful'.

Coordinated charge can be a fantastic teamwork feat under the right circumstances. When one of the users makes a charge, others with the feat can also make a charge as an immediate action. This immediate action charge is, at its core, movement made outside of your turn that puts you right next to a melee target. That makes it into a pseudo pounce- it allows you to move, and then later on your next turn you can probably full attack (assuming the enemy did not get its turn before that and move away).

As such, a charging cavalier using tactician could lead to most of the party getting full attacks on the next round. Your own damage doesn't improve, the the general damage of the party does.

The only flaw with this method is that it is slightly out of sync with your tactician ability- tactician only allows you to use the bonus teamwork feats you gain from that ability (and you don't skip the necessary prerequisites for those feats). You gain another teamwork feat at level 9... and coordinated charge needs BAB +10. If you are interested in this method, you might need to take a dip into some full martial class, like barbarian, so you can sync things up.


Well... I plan on playing something more balance.
Charging are still good, but not 1 shot.
Cavalier of the sword x / unchained rogue 4 (thug and scout).
I have blades of mercy trait, dex to hit and damage with aldori sword.
+2d6 and sneak and huge debuffs without saves (rogue 4+sneak ability+sicken + damage).

Scout 4 = auto sneak when i charge.
Feats to build in slowly
Mounted combat, ride by, wheeling,spirited, power attack, enforcer boon companion.
Can add expertise and gang up.

So...slowly you build good damage wit hand without the mount.
Supet skills and debuffer.


Merellin wrote:
So, If you where a medium sized Cavalier, With a Medium Lance, How would you get the most damage out of your lance on a mounted lance charge?

Can I give you advice as someone who's dealt with this problem issue as a fellow player, GM, and the lancer?

Don't try to optimize it too hard.

You will practically be able to splat any target in a single attack once you get to level 10. It stops being fun other players at the table, and the GM. And then the GM starts finding ways to deny your mount the ability to charge.

Also, if you put all your eggs in the mounted charge basket you wont have anything for times when you really can't find a charge lane in a small room or difficult terrain or other situations.


Pack Flanking is much more useful if you're a sword-swinger pouncer-build on a pounce-kitty.

Grand Lodge

Most mounted builds have martial weapons and power attack. If you can't charge this has been fine to cover me. Charging can actually fall behind in damage around 11 (full bab) when haste is active depending on the build and gear so full attacking won't be too far behind.

If you can retrain you can overcome the problem lemerer lays out with getting access to coordinated charge a level late.


mix in 5 lvls of Paladin and take focus on weapon bond - lance, bless weapon spell, and smite evil on a charge, if the target is evil, crits are auto confirmed with Bless Weapon.


Scrapper wrote:
mix in 5 lvls of Paladin and take focus on weapon bond - lance, bless weapon spell, and smite evil on a charge, if the target is evil, crits are auto confirmed with Bless Weapon.

If you mix in five levels of paladin and take weapon bond, then the mount is suffering -5 levels.

(And, if you're lawful-good, you're probably better off being all or mostly paladin in the first place. Cavalier is mainly for those who aren't LG.)


I disagree about the LG of a cavalier. Some orders are perfect for LG.

And if you choose a warhorse you won't lose any levels at all


If you multiclass paladin, your mount is already losing levels (he'll get them back at paladin5...if you choose mount and not weapon-bond).

The only way LG cavalier is superior offensively to paladin is if the build is dumping charisma in point-buy (yielding a higher relative attack-bonus versus non-Smite targets). But saving throws are the bane of cavaliers, whereas paladins are usually quite well endowed in that area.


Boon Companion feat would compensate mostly


Slim Jim wrote:
Pack Flanking is much more useful if you're a sword-swinger pouncer-build on a pounce-kitty.

I disagree.

Its perfect for your plan b.
Can you charge ? If so do it and get +4 from cavalier.
You cant?
Drop the lance, grab a greatsword and get +4 via outflank and pack flanking, attack WITH the dog for overall decent attack.
You wont beat the barbarian, but thats ok.


don't forget getting for you (and or your mount depand on gm) the rhino charge feat so after you spirited charge. you can move away and ready ("when i say 'go'", ready doen't need to be triggered by others) to charge the target again. can get that team feat for you and mount where you don't get aoo for moving if you are in reach of ally with same feat (and you and mount are allies and in each other reach so perfect).


Claxon wrote:
Merellin wrote:
So, If you where a medium sized Cavalier, With a Medium Lance, How would you get the most damage out of your lance on a mounted lance charge?

Can I give you advice as someone who's dealt with this problem issue as a fellow player, GM, and the lancer?

Don't try to optimize it too hard.

You will practically be able to splat any target in a single attack once you get to level 10. It stops being fun other players at the table, and the GM. And then the GM starts finding ways to deny your mount the ability to charge.

Also, if you put all your eggs in the mounted charge basket you wont have anything for times when you really can't find a charge lane in a small room or difficult terrain or other situations.

Oh, Dont worry, I try to avoid power gaming and over optimising, I just wanted some tips and ideas on how one could boost the Lance. I was thinking that if I get a few tips and ideas I could look into them and use a couple at most. I just like thinking and pondering and examening things, Then I go away from things that seem like they would make my build too powerful.

I hope I dident come off as wanting to over optimise and power game..


Well, I don't mean to say that optimization is bad.

It's just easy to make a character that is very overwhelming, and then the GM attempts to counter it to keep play at a reasonable level for everyone else. Which can make you feel personally attacked.

I think going for a lot of utility options in being able to preserve your ability to charge is a good route to keep you useful, without being overwhelming.


Well then of that is the case, the way to get the most out of a lance is simple. Charge.

The only things stopping you are
1. Is there 10 feet to start a charge
2. Are allies stopping my charge
3. Is there space to fit for a charging pet
4. Is the terrain going to allow me to charge

Now when you factor all this in, the best way to go around this is a small character on a medium pet. As people pointed out, a couple damage will not matter in the end, so maybe throwing weapon specialization back in will off set the penalty.

Or look into playing a dwarf with the undersized mount feat and a belt of ant haul for the pet? Muleback cord? Chain challenge at level 7, plus dwarven flavoured class option is half a point to challenge... that's 3 at 7, so 9 on a charge and its chainable...

The only way to do damage on a charge with a lance is to be able to charge in the first place.

So the question isn't "what does the most damage" the question you wanted to ask was "what should I take that allows me to charge the most often"?

Feats like wheeled charge, medium sized mounts to get past allies and for through doorways... that's what you need.


Or....
Go flying...


666bender wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Pack Flanking is much more useful if you're a sword-swinger pouncer-build on a pounce-kitty.
I disagree. Its perfect for your plan b.

Spending two feats (you also need Combat Expertise) is a very annoying expense for "plan b".

--I'd rather spend two feats on Plan C: "What do I do when I'm dismounted and my mount is absent/killed/dazed/not near me?"


to any GM who is heaving problem with non-flaying charging lancers - invest in caltrops ;)

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