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A few comments:
1) Be aware Gravity Hold doesn't play nice with Plasma Sheath and vice versa. Its purely an either or to get combat benefit out of them. It takes a minimum of 1 turn to switch between them as well. If you're currently in Photon, at the start of the turn you drop to unattuned (losing any benefits), then the start of the next turn you can go into Graviton (unless you have a level 11 magic ring).2)Reflection is Dex based because it makes a ranged attack roll. With starting 10 Dex, you'll really, really want to be in Graviton attunement to have a reasonable chance of hitting. If not, you'll be at -7 to hit relative to your normal melee attacks.
It just means you need some thought put into what you want to do at the very beginning of a fight. At 2nd level there are a couple of powers whose primary benefit doesn't matter on the attunement mode you are in.
Those are: Flare, Gravity Boost, Stellar Rush
Most of the 6th level revelations are both mode friendly, except Corona.
Yeah, even if Plasma Sheath & Gravity hold didn't play well together (I am in the camp that believes you just need generic attunement for Gravity Sheath) I think GH's ability is worth it. Keep in mind that nothing says it is for enemies only. You can use it to move your allies next to opponents for a pseudo pounce. Or you could throw foes off of cliffs. Also Starfinder doesn't seem to have a clause about involuntary movement not provoking AoO's, so that may be a thing as well.
That's a good point on reflection. I may have to reconsider that power, maybe Defy Gravity,
Yeah, even if Plasma Sheath & Gravity hold didn't play well together (I am in the camp that believes you just need generic attunement for Gravity Sheath) I think GH's ability is worth it. Keep in mind that nothing says it is for enemies only. You can use it to move your allies next to opponents for a pseudo pounce. Or you could throw foes off of cliffs. Also Starfinder doesn't seem to have a clause about involuntary movement not provoking AoO's, so that may be a thing as well.That's a good point on reflection. I may have to reconsider that power, maybe Defy Gravity,
Actually, I like using Black Hole as a pseudo-pounce, as it is explicitly no AoO on moving, and it hits multiple targets - only problem is it is not usable every round. However, at low levels given its short range, its mostly good for bringing people 5' away after a guarded step into range for a full attack. However, I take your point on Gravity Hold.
I also wasn't saying you shouldn't take it, but you need to consider carefully the various attunements. It takes finesse if you can't use it in photon attunement. However, I've since been converted to the any attunement camp.
Since the topic came up in this thread, I've created a thread over in rules to ask if gravity revelations require graviton attunement.
Rereading Black Hole and Supernova versus Dark Matter, I think they may not require it except where specifically mentioned.
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Just played the quests last night with a 14 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Int, 14 Cha Solarian. Using a taclash, I provided about as good of battlefield control as to be expected at level 1. Between normal attacks, readied attacks and attacks of opportunity, he was able to take down every attacker pretty much before they got to him. I think he only missed on two attacks and hit at least five (he downed five enemies). Also, since the Quests goes into starship combat, he actually had a use in starships. As Captain, he succeeded in two of three attempts to taunt the enemy (giving them -2 on piloting and science checks for 1d4 rounds). Poor rolls meant that he didn't whip his crew to the +4, but he could assist the gunners on a 7+ as Captain. He also jumped into a gunners seat after about the 6th round of space combat to act as another gunner (he was better than one of our gunners who only had a +2 as a strength based soldier). All in all, he had a very successful outing. His diplomacy and intimidate were also useful in the social interactions between the combats, especially as there was no other face type character (since I foresee only envoys or other solarian having a positive charisma modifier).
Yeah, even if Plasma Sheath & Gravity hold didn't play well together (I am in the camp that believes you just need generic attunement for Gravity Sheath) I think GH's ability is worth it. Keep in mind that nothing says it is for enemies only. You can use it to move your allies next to opponents for a pseudo pounce. Or you could throw foes off of cliffs. Also Starfinder doesn't seem to have a clause about involuntary movement not provoking AoO's, so that may be a thing as well.That's a good point on reflection. I may have to reconsider that power, maybe Defy Gravity,
Actually, I like using Black Hole as a pseudo-pounce, as it is explicitly no AoO on moving, and it hits multiple targets - only problem is it is not usable every round. However, at low levels given its short range, its mostly good for bringing people 5' away after a guarded step into range for a full attack. However, I take your point on Gravity Hold.
I also wasn't saying you shouldn't take it, but you need to consider carefully the various attunements. It takes finesse if you can't use it in photon attunement. However, I've since been converted to the any attunement camp.
Unfortunately, as King of Anything mentioned in another thread, it looks like the pre-gen character sheet for Altronus (the iconic Solarian) settles the matter the other way. :(
In particular, it explicitly spells out the "attuned or fully attuned" clauses in the various revelations to mean "attuned or fully attuned to [the mode of that revelation]". Some quotes:
Plasma Sheath As a move action, Altronus can cause all his solar weapon damage to become fire damage (though attacks still target KAC) for 1 round. If he is attuned or fully attuned to photon mode, he also increases the damage dealt by 2, and the effect lasts as long as he maintains stellar attunement.
Corona (Su) As a standard action, Altronus can wreathe his body in flames for 1 round, gaining cold resistance 10, and any adjacent creature that hits him with a melee attack takes 2d6 fire damage. If Altronus is attuned or fully attuned to proton mode, the effect lasts until he loses his attunement, and any creature that starts its turn adjacent to him takes 4 fire damage.
Gravity Surge (Su) As a full action, Altronus can perform a disarm or trip combat maneuver against a foe within 30 feet with a +15 attack bonus. When he is attuned or fully attuned to graviton mode and has a hand free, if he disarms a target of an item, it flies to his hand, and if he trips a target, he can pull it up to 10 feet closer to him.
@Porridge
Although historically the pre-gens have violated rules, this does seem to indicate they intended that the revelations require you are attuned to that mode. Really would have been a nice thing to note at the top of the section if that is what they wanted.
The secondary effects require you to be attuned, going off the Pregen. You can still use the standard version of the revelations when not attuned.
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I'm thinking of going Lashunta Bounty hunter for my Solarian.
+2 Str, +2 cha, -2 wis, then +1 Con from bounty hunter.
Gives base stats
12, 10, 11, 10, 8, 12
Before spending points.
Provides some cool spell like abilities to go along with the Solarian abilities.
+2 in any two skills you choose (From Lashunta) means I can buff out that penalty to wisdom for skills like perception and insight (which I think of as important for a bounty hunter)
Given my Dex is less likely to be too high here, I'll focus my Solarian ability as armour to compensate. Weapons are easily attained for credits so keeping up with that isn't an issue I see coming up.
Seems like a fun class to play. Moderate combatant with great skill back up and some cool abilities for situational use.
Reminds me of inquisitors from Pathfinder actually.
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Seems like a fun class to play. Moderate combatant with great skill back up and some cool abilities for situational use.
Reminds me of inquisitors from Pathfinder actually.
I'm still bemused how 'highest DPR in the game' is widely considered 'moderate combat ability'.
Oh, and remember that by going Solar Armor you're giving up the possibility of Heavy Armor...which gives better AC at low Dex. IMO, a Str-based Solarian should go with the weapon and grab Heavy Armor Proficiency as a Feat. It's Dex-based ranged Solarians who should grab Solar Armor. Now that's an interesting build.
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Seems like a fun class to play. Moderate combatant with great skill back up and some cool abilities for situational use.
Reminds me of inquisitors from Pathfinder actually.I'm still bemused how 'highest DPR in the game' is widely considered 'moderate combat ability'.
Oh, and remember that by going Solar Armor you're giving up the possibility of Heavy Armor...which gives better AC at low Dex. IMO, a Str-based Solarian should go with the weapon and grab Heavy Armor Proficiency as a Feat. It's Dex-based ranged Solarians who should grab Solar Armor. Now that's an interesting build.
Sorry, I wasn't saying Solarians are moderate combatants. I'm suggesting the way I was building mine was moderate.
I haven't looked into feats too much yet. This is just my first impressions and trying to combine the things I've found coolest so far.
I just see it as being a Gap filler for any party, if I were going to play in organised play situations.
If were playing a home game with fixed players, I'd have a better idea of what was coming along and would tailor my strengths more towards that synergy instead.
Seems to be the devs agree with your take on things though. I think the sample builds they put in the Solarian class have chosen weapon over armour for the most part.
There actually two each of weapon and armor.
The Solarian player in my recent game also took a level of Soldier. The Solarian was not up to his expectations, and yes, they were high. But really, the nail in the coffin came when after getting Solarian powers and finally getting to a point where a) there were multiple enemies close enough and b) he was fully attuned... all the enemies were fire resistant. Not a fair situation? He knows how common fire damage and resistance is in PF... he expects (rightly or not) for the same to happen in SF. He's still doing his own version of what this thread is doing to determine if he'll continue the Solarian route or go back to Soldier.
Unfortunately, the party has non-combat stuff pretty much taken care of, often times with overlap. The Operative alone has almost the entire skill list. He doesn't see any value (yet) in an overly wide selection of skills for a combat focused character. Sure, he needs and/or wants Athletics, Perception, and probably Stealth. While a combat focused character may be one-dimensional, he's having a hard time justifying not doing that when the other three in the group don't really need anything *but* a combat focused character.
If everyone in the party is combat competent, do you really need a combat focused character?
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Interesting.
I've got the first instalment of the AP.
I've also got the free Pathfinder society module.
Nothing is fire resistant in those modules at early levels where the Solarion is going to be using his AoE ability.
The KC/EC range of the baddies isn't high.
The to hit mods of the baddies isn't over the top.
Basically everything I'm seeing as complaints for this class aren't in the game unless the DMs are deliberately putting them in place for their "trial" of the Solarian.
Interesting.
I've got the first instalment of the AP.
I've also got the free Pathfinder society module.Nothing is fire resistant in those modules at early levels where the Solarion is going to be using his AoE ability.
The KC/EC range of the baddies isn't high.
The to hit mods of the baddies isn't over the top.Basically everything I'm seeing as complaints for this class aren't in the game unless the DMs are deliberately putting them in place for their "trial" of the Solarian.
The Akatas have fire resistance 5. His first Solarian level was character level *2*.
I thought he took the level of Soldier after?
I thought he took the level of Soldier after?
No, he was a level 1 Soldier at the start of the campaign because he wanted Str for resolve points and he left his Cha at 10. Now you have me wondering if I posted the wrong thing in my after action post... will look later. :)
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Multiclassing and then not doing well with class abilities that are a level behind is unfortunate, but has more to do with that specific circumstance than the class in question's quality.
Melee Soldier is a perfectly valid build, if he's not interested in Solarian he should go with that. If he is interested in Solarian, well, it gets better as levels go up.
Yeah, for your post I thought you were talking about a full on Solarion, not a Soldier who multiclassed into Solarion.
This kinda highlights the pitfalls of multiclassing, your abilities are going to be weaker than a full on class of the same level, and that's not even taking into account everything making the save DCs because you dumped the stat they use.
Multiclassing and then not doing well with class abilities that are a level behind is unfortunate, but has more to do with that specific circumstance than the class in question's quality.
Melee Soldier is a perfectly valid build, if he's not interested in Solarian he should go with that. If he is interested in Solarian, well, it gets better as levels go up.
I think you are missing the point. He was already skeptical about the Solarian and was trying it out to see anyway. He had several preconceptions going in that led him to start as a Soldier. There aren't many fights in the first module that feature more than 2 opponents, and of those, only 1 worked out to have 2 nearby when he had the ability available and useable. And when it happened it was fire resistant enemies. It's his own experience with the class, and that's leading him to feel it's lack luster. So whether the class is good or not, the module provided him with a negative impression. I hate to think how much worse the experience would have been as a full Solarian with only light armor, as no one else in the group was a meleer.
Whether the dependency on fire damage becomes a longer term problem remains to be seen, but again, he's making those assumptions. The entire group suffered against the Akatas (at least the first encounter with them) as they were using lasers as well. It had the desired effect, and now the whole party is keeping around a locker full of weapon types. A solarian doesn't have nearly the flexibility with damage types.
Having a Solarion with a Charisma of ten left him with a negative impression.
That and misconceptions.
Solarion didn't do anything.
Yeah, for your post I thought you were talking about a full on Solarion, not a Soldier who multiclassed into Solarion.
This kinda highlights the pitfalls of multiclassing, your abilities are going to be weaker than a full on class of the same level, and that's not even taking into account everything making the save DCs because you dumped the stat they use.
Akatas have a +3 Ref. As a full Solarian with a 16 Cha that would be a 45% chance (40% if you started with an 18 Cha, which would be crazy) to make the save for 3d6 damage (avg 10)... for 5 damage on a failed save and 0 on a successful one. All while standing there in light armor getting pounded on? That's effective?
Having a Solarion with a Charisma of ten left him with a negative impression.
That and misconceptions.
Solarion didn't do anything.
Again, he didn't use the ability. Not because of low Cha, but because the target was fire resistant. That is one negative impression out of a few over the course of the first module. Solarian failed to provide him any sense of that espoused "utility". So yeah, Solarian didn't do anything.
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But if he was a second level Solarion he could have used flare to blind, or gravity hold to immobilise an enemy, or dark matter to have DR, depending on his choice.
Again, this comes down to multiclassing weakening his class and affecting his perceptions. However, as purely anecdotal evidence it turns out your player isn't happy with the class and all his experience so far hasn't changed that.
You have brought up a valid point on energy resistances though. If fire resistance is wide spread and you've focused character build on the Solar aspects of the class, it could get frustrating. This was a problem with elemental sorcerers in Pathfinder too. I suspect that's why you have to diversify your revelations between fire and gravity, so,your ire not putting all your eggs in one basket.
Personally, if I'm going light armour I'd be choosing Dark matter as my second level revelation. The DR is always useful.
My Solarian has 14/15 for his defenses at the moment. In light armour using the armour manifestation. That's him specced more for melee so his Dex is only 14.
If I wanted I could spec more for ranged which means swapping Dex and strength stats. Then his AC goes to 15/16
From the AP bad guy stats that puts him at 50% chance to get shot if he's not in cover, less than 50% if he's in melee.
From what I've seen in the stats, engaging at range really means you should be in cover. (Not sure why but the enemies in the modules I've gotten so far seem to be rolling at +6 to ranged combat. That's like the best optimised ranged PC you could build at level 1. Seems weird and I can't seem to find why this is true).
As for out of combat utility. The AP has a section where diplomacy is used extensively for investigation. It's a class skill for Solarians. Mine has +8 (dropped one of the Lashunta skill bonuses into it). That's very useful as far as I can tell.
I see more issue with your friends build than I do with the character.
Couple of points.
1) Every encounter in the adventure is with multiple opponents.
2) Solarion saves are based on Charisma, so if you want to be competent at what a Solarion do, you gotta put something in Charisma.
3) Solar weapons start with a base of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. All fire related stuff is added on by Plasma Sheath and such, so at least he can get in there and start laying down some damage.
4) Fire Resistance is not fire immune. as Jim Carrey said in Dumb & Dumber "So, you're saying there's a chance!"
That is all.
Have fun! :-)
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From what I've seen in the stats, engaging at range really means you should be in cover. (Not sure why but the enemies in the modules I've gotten so far seem to be rolling at +6 to ranged combat. That's like the best optimised ranged PC you could build at level 1. Seems weird and I can't seem to find why this is true).
Different design philosophy compared to Pathfinder.
What you'll notice in starfinder is that monsters and npcs will have high to hit and low armorclass, while players will most likely have high armorclass and low to hit.
This is partially done to prevent a partywipe or player kill because the most combattwinked character got dominated and proceeded to kill a player per round. The idea is that pc's will have less chance of hitting themselves in case of domination.
Couple of points.
1) Every encounter in the adventure is with multiple opponents.
2) Solarion saves are based on Charisma, so if you want to be competent at what a Solarion do, you gotta put something in Charisma.
3) Solar weapons start with a base of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. All fire related stuff is added on by Plasma Sheath and such, so at least he can get in there and start laying down some damage.
4) Fire Resistance is not fire immune. as Jim Carrey said in Dumb & Dumber "So, you're saying there's a chance!"
That is all.
Have fun! :-)
1) Please re-read Incident at Absalom Station, because that isn't remotely true. Then read the after action report if you want, and see how many fights went to three rounds with more than one target still surviving.
2) Absolutely, and the more you do that, the worse you will be at surviving melee or putting out damage. You can do one, but not both as a pure Solarian early on.3) The added damage from Solar mode is the only thing he found useful.
4) Just because there is a chance doesn't mean it's a useful option among those avaiable. I think he actually determined after the fact that a grenade would have been more useful, but he forgot he was carrying them.
Akatas have a +3 Ref. As a full Solarian with a 16 Cha that would be a 45% chance (40% if you started with an 18 Cha, which would be crazy) to make the save for 3d6 damage (avg 10)... for 5 damage on a failed save and 0 on a successful one. All while standing there in light armor getting pounded on? That's effective?
I think that level 2, 16 Charisma Solarian should have a save DC of 14 (10+1 (level) + 3 (Cha) and been doing (3d6+1 (photon attunement)-5 (Fire resistance)) * (number of targets). 11 or higher saves, is 50% odds. 3d6+1 averages to 11.5.
Assuming only 2 targets, then 2*(0.5*6.5 + 0.5*0.75) = 7.25 expected damage, with a minimum of 0 damage and a maximum of 28 (14 to two targets).
Thats actually pretty good damage at level 2 against enemies specifically designed to stop you. I know a level 1 Soldier that would have been doing 0 to 3 damage, average 0.75 using a laser rifle, or 2.5 with a Survival Knife. And that assumes 100% hit rate. A laser pistol wielding Operative would have had just as much luck, with 1d6+1d4-5 = 1 average.
I don't argue that its going to potentially be hard to convince enemies to crowd you, but I do feel you are short changing the damage a tad in that example. And if it had been two DR 5/- enemies instead of FR 5 enemies, then you're looking at 2*(0.45*11.5 + 0.55*5.75) = 16.675, minimum 4, maximum 38. At level 2, what other attack does that much expected damage in an AoE? I'd even like to see what single attack is expected to do more than 8.3 average damage taking into account saves and hit odds.
Its not perfect, and definitely feels clunky in places, but I don't feel Supernova is that bad of a power for what it is, a point blank AoE. I've used it in melee against a single enemy as it has better average damage than my 1st level attack with a melee weapon.
But if he was a second level Solarion he could have used flare to blind, or gravity hold to immobilise an enemy, or dark matter to have DR, depending on his choice.
The only reason those are "better" options is the lack of heavy armor. He would need one of those things to survive holding the doorway he was in.
Personally, if I'm going light armour I'd be choosing Dark matter as my second level revelation. The DR is always useful.
Absolutely agree there.
My Solarian has 14/15 for his defenses at the moment. In light armour using the armour manifestation. That's him specced more for melee so his Dex is only 14.
What are you using as a weapon?
As for out of combat utility. The AP has a section where diplomacy is used extensively for investigation. It's a class skill for Solarians. Mine has +8 (dropped one of the Lashunta skill bonuses into it). That's very useful as far as I can tell.
The player was not looking for out of combat utility. As I said, the rest of the group had pretty much the entire skill list covered, including Cha skills. The utility that he had heard about prior to playing was that the Solarian was going to have more options in combat, things similar to the battlefield control like what his character (Fighter I think?) in 4e had. (This is what he told me and I don't know the source). If simply taking heavy armor proficiency negates the need for a fair amount of that in-combat utility, then it's not very good utility in his opinion. Again... elevated expectations are probably at fault here for some things he's saying (a lot of this is coming from him), but I don't agree that the Solarian is particularly good at anything, and is hampered in a few ways that make it hard to make use of what the class does give you.
I'll find out this weekend whether he keeps the multi-class, goes pure Solarian, or pure Soldier. He's kind of bummed that for full BAB, he only has 2 options, but it's a new game. Maybe I should tell him to make a melee Operative and just completely blow up the skill system. :)
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2) Absolutely, and the more you do that, the worse you will be at surviving melee or putting out damage. You can do one, but not both as a pure Solarian early on.
This is just not true.
You can contribute and survive just fine without having to play a Soldier-lite and ignoring the Solarion's powers. You are not required in any way, shape, or form to play a Soldier-lite in order to contribute.
And as your game shows multiclassing and ignoring CHA in favor of trying to mimic the Soldier does not do the Solarion any favors. Dipping Solarion and not having any CHA also means your powers are going to be near uslesss compared to everything else you can do.
The player was not looking for out of combat utility. As I said, the rest of the group had pretty much the entire skill list covered, including Cha skills. The utility that he had heard about prior to playing was that the Solarian was going to have more options in combat, things similar to the battlefield control like what his character (Fighter I think?) in 4e had. (This is what he told me and I don't know the source). If simply taking heavy armor proficiency negates the need for a fair amount of that in-combat utility, then it's not very good utility in his opinion. Again... elevated expectations are probably at fault here for some things he's saying (a lot of this is coming from him), but I don't agree that the Solarian is particularly good at anything, and is hampered in a few ways that make it hard to make use of what the class does give you.
I'll find out this weekend whether he keeps the multi-class, goes pure Solarian, or pure Soldier. He's kind of bummed that for full BAB, he only has 2 options, but...
Well that's easy to declare when you haven't seen a single classed Solarion, you've seen someone take a dip into Solarion who also only had a 10 Charisma. That's a bit different than a full class Solarion with some investment into Charisma.
I'm not too excited about the Solarion's fully attuned powers so I don't mind dumping Cha. I expect the workhorses will be the ones that do things when you have at least 1 point of attunement (and don't offer saving throws).
Of course, if my experience proves otherwise and I wish I could use fully attuned moves with higher DCs, I might try that. For our first campaign, the DM has agreed to allow us to rebuild if we find we're doing poorly, on account of it being a new system for us all.
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@Darkbringer - I haven't settled on my weapon yet. Initially I'm looking at tactical Spear and some form of pistol. I'm not worried about dealing energy damage in early levels, kinetic still kills things. I'm building for versatility at low level and will work out my specialty as I get further in. Specifically what my role is will be in part determined by the rest of the party. I've got diplomacy hammered so they're not likely to overlap that one too much.
As for the combat control he's having an issue with, Level two has combat control stuff all through it. I mentioned two of them above. Even level one Gravity whatever will move opponents around.
That means pulling them out of cover if you can position well, or readying an action to fire it off and stop charging or moveing into combat (which I don't know if you can do in this system yet, but is something I've been considering).
My Solarian has a 14 charisma so his abilities are at least in the positives for saves. And mixing up abilities to target Fortitude instead of Reflex is always good. As is mixing up things so you're not just one trick pony dealing fire damage.
Anyhow, none of this is going to change your players point of view. I'm fairly sure he wants something the class probably won't do and might just be better going soldier for his vision.
Akatas have a +3 Ref. As a full Solarian with a 16 Cha that would be a 45% chance (40% if you started with an 18 Cha, which would be crazy) to make the save for 3d6 damage (avg 10)... for 5 damage on a failed save and 0 on a successful one. All while standing there in light armor getting pounded on? That's effective?I think that level 2, 16 Charisma Solarian should have a save DC of 14 (10+1 (level) + 3 (Cha) and been doing (3d6+1 (photon attunement)-5 (Fire resistance)) * (number of targets). 11 or higher saves, is 50% odds. 3d6+1 averages to 11.5.
Assuming only 2 targets, then 2*(0.5*6.5 + 0.5*0.75) = 7.25 expected damage, with a minimum of 0 damage and a maximum of 28 (14 to two targets).
Thats actually pretty good damage at level 2 against enemies specifically designed to stop you. I know a level 1 Soldier that would have been doing 0 to 3 damage, average 0.75 using a laser rifle, or 2.5 with a Survival Knife. And that assumes 100% hit rate. A laser pistol wielding Operative would have had just as much luck, with 1d6+1d4-5 = 1 average.
I don't argue that its going to potentially be hard to convince enemies to crowd you, but I do feel you are short changing the damage a tad in that example. And if it had been two DR 5/- enemies instead of FR 5 enemies, then you're looking at 2*(0.45*11.5 + 0.55*5.75) = 16.675, minimum 4, maximum 38. At level 2, what other attack does that much expected damage in an AoE? I'd even like to see what single attack is expected to do more than 8.3 average damage taking into account saves and hit odds.
Its not perfect, and definitely feels clunky in places, but I don't feel Supernova is that bad of a power for what it is, a point blank AoE. I've used it in melee against a single enemy as it has better average damage than my 1st level attack with a melee weapon.
Yep, my on the fly calculation was a little low. I've forwarded this to my player, but really it's him going through this sort of exercise to get what he wants. He's the one that pushes the optimizing envelope in the group usually, but as a whole they have toned down what they do. At one point in Pathfinder, they got very good at it and group optimized their way into a very easy AP because I don't have the time to adjust things to up the challenge.
2) Absolutely, and the more you do that, the worse you will be at surviving melee or putting out damage. You can do one, but not both as a pure Solarian early on.This is just not true.
You can contribute and survive just fine without having to play a Soldier-lite and ignoring the Solarion's powers. You are not required in any way, shape, or form to play a Soldier-lite in order to contribute.
And as your game shows multiclassing and ignoring CHA in favor of trying to mimic the Soldier does not do the Solarion any favors. Dipping Solarion and not having any CHA also means your powers are going to be near uslesss compared to everything else you can do.
Hang on, we're not talking about just surviving and contributing here. He's trying to fill the one and only melee role in the group. He's expected to keep at least some of the heat off the rest of the party. If the Solarian isn't supposed to be able to do that, then fine. But that was apparently his expectation going in. He's done this in Pathfinder with Rangers, Paladins, a Daring Cavalier, and countless other full BAB builds, including a plain Fighter.
I'm also not sure where the "as my game shows" thing is coming from. He never used a power except Sheath once I think. His Cha had exactly 0 impact on his character for three levels. It's not like he took all the Graviton stuff with a 10 Cha and then complained. His statements so far in emails to me resemble this... "if I take 16 Cha and such-and-such I can do X" and then he rattles off a stream of all the good/bad things he can come up with for using that power. When will it be needed, how can it be creatively used, how will it help the party, etc. And I guess he's running math simulations and what not. Remember, his complaint about the first power I mentioned was a) fire damage type and b) how long it took to become available in a fight.
If I had time I'd re-run the thing with the group and make him play a full Solarian. But for those early levels, I think it would be disappointing to him.
But if a full Solarian is supposed to be, in essence, an off tank or a secondary meleer, then his (and even my) expectations were way off. Our Mystic actually wanted to be the secondary meleer, but that didn't pan out either.
The only reason those are "better" options is the lack of heavy armor. He would need one of those things to survive holding the doorway he was in.Heavy Armor is only a Feat away, so this complaint always rings a little hollow to me.
His complaint isn't about access to heavy armor. His complaint is how useful are the Solarian powers (Graviton mostly) if you *do* have heavy armor? Is it better to go into Graviton, have a better Ref save, and try to hold/move/whatever targets, or is it better to be in Solar and contribute a little more damage toward eliminating targets? So far in the life of the character, battlefield control hasn't been missed, but extra damage has been welcomed. PF for this group generally isn't a defensive game. Sure, the Wizard or Sorcerer will try to control the field, but overall, they try to off things as quickly and as efficiently as possible. They have an offensive mindset in every AP they play in. They don't fiddle around with half measures, and right now, a lot of the Solarian power *look* like half measures to him.
As for the combat control he's having an issue with, Level two has combat control stuff all through it. I mentioned two of them above. Even level one Gravity whatever will move opponents around.That means pulling them out of cover if you can position well, or readying an action to fire it off and stop charging or moveing into combat (which I don't know if you can do in this system yet, but is something I've been considering).
Black Hole requires 3 rounds of combat to have passed, just like Supernova. If the combats were lasting longer, he might agree with you, but they haven't. Also, Flare is a standard action, meaning you are giving your attack to blind someone for a single round or to dazzle a group for a round. We both missed that apparently Gravity Hold doesn't require an action at all to trigger, which makes that power a bit more appealing.
Oh, and I never did answer the question he had about Stellar Rush... does that power deal 2d6 only when you attempt to bull rush? Or does it also deal 2d6 if you choose to make a melee attack?
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His complaint isn't about access to heavy armor. His complaint is how useful are the Solarian powers (Graviton mostly) if you *do* have heavy armor? Is it better to go into Graviton, have a better Ref save, and try to hold/move/whatever targets, or is it better to be in Solar and contribute a little more damage toward eliminating targets? So far in the life of the character, battlefield control hasn't been missed, but extra damage has been welcomed. PF for this group generally isn't a defensive game. Sure, the Wizard or Sorcerer will try to control the field, but overall, they try to off things as quickly and as efficiently as possible. They have an offensive mindset in every AP they play in. They don't fiddle around with half measures, and right now, a lot of the Solarian power *look* like half measures to him.
Ah, gotcha. Damage is a very valid way to go.
Oh, and I never did answer the question he had about Stellar Rush... does that power deal 2d6 only when you attempt to bull rush? Or does it also deal 2d6 if you choose to make a melee attack?
The damage is only on a Bull Rush, but the removal of charging penalties applies either way.
Black Hole requires 3 rounds of combat to have passed, just like Supernova. If the combats were lasting longer, he might agree with you, but they haven't. Also, Flare is a standard action, meaning you are giving your attack to blind someone for a single round or to dazzle a group for a round. We both missed that apparently Gravity Hold doesn't require an action at all to trigger, which makes that power a bit more appealing.
Oh, and I never did answer the question he had about Stellar Rush... does that power deal 2d6 only when you attempt to bull rush? Or does it also deal 2d6 if you choose to make a melee attack?
Stellar Rush does 2d6+1 (Ref save for half) only if you bull rush. It is 2d6+1 since you have to be Photon attuned to get the fire damage and the +1 from Photon attunement applies to your stellar powers as well. The other benefits you get when you don't Bull Rush (standard action charge instead of full action, no -2 to hit/-2 to AC) are still very good however.
Unfortunately, Gravity Hold is a standard action to start, and a standard action to maintain. Because its a special ability (see page 262) and doesn't state the action, it takes a standard. Since Psyhokinetic Hand lists concentration as its duration, it takes a standard action to maintain as well. This goes for the moving objects, or for moving/immobilizing creatures.
However, it is unclear if a moved character with Gravity Hold (enemy or ally) provokes attack of opportunity. It doesn't have the no provoke clause Black Hole does. If they do provoke, you can use your reaction to hit them as you force them to move to a square you want. Ideally with a reach weapon so their melee attacks can't hit back.
The first really good control power I feel Solarians get is at 6th level, with Crush. As it is move to sustain, you can combine it with Solar Rush or a standard action attack, plus the usual provoking stuff, as they can't both move and attack, ranged enemies and casters are stuck, especially if you have step up and strike. If you are in graviton, a stun effect is pretty good. I don't know if you spend the resolve point before you see the results of the saving throw or after. I feel the power is unclear on that point.
I've been tempted to grab Stellar Rush and Plasma Sheath at 2 and 4, and then grab Crush 6th and maybe Defy Gravity or Gravity Surge at 8th. You're only out of balance during levels 4 and 5, and have the get in and hit photon boosting powers early. Photon attunement, move to activate Plasma Sheath, standard to Stellar Rush, and draw your weapon as your charge doesn't sound like a bad 1st turn. However, that really doesn't have any control flavor until 6th. It does mean you have 2 damage types while only buying a single weapon, which as you've already found can be useful for dealing with some types of enemies.
Other interesting combos beyond Gravity Hold and provoke, include Radiation and an Envoy with Quick Dispiring Taunt, which can be -4 to enemy to-hit, skills, and saves by 4th level (shaken + sicken), making the control powers, like Gravity Hold more likely to stick, and making your Solarian take less damage. Although there's a FAQ request trying to figure out if the attuned or fully attuned clauses mean what they say, or if they were meant to refer to attuned to the same mode as the power - which would make Radiation + Gravity Hold very hard to do. Radiation + Crush would still be viable however.
Lastly, I'll mention I'm running a Str 14/Dex 14/14 Cha Human Solar Armor Solarian in Starfinder Society. Fleet and Weapon Focus. Buying tier 2 light armor and a tactical pike worked really well in the first adventure. Getting into the middle of the enemies with a reach weapon gave them the choice of dropping their weapon and going melee, or giving at least 1 free attack from their ranged attacks. AC was respectable at 16 KAC, with a 40' move.
Anyways, just my 2 cents.
Black Hole requires 3 rounds of combat to have passed, just like Supernova. If the combats were lasting longer, he might agree with you, but they haven't. Also, Flare is a standard action, meaning you are giving your attack to blind someone for a single round or to dazzle a group for a round. We both missed that apparently Gravity Hold doesn't require an action at all to trigger, which makes that power a bit more appealing.
Oh, and I never did answer the question he had about Stellar Rush... does that power deal 2d6 only when you attempt to bull rush? Or does it also deal 2d6 if you choose to make a melee attack?
Unfortunately, Gravity Hold is a standard action to start, and a standard action to maintain. Because its a special ability (see page 262) and doesn't state the action, it takes a standard. Since Psyhokinetic Hand lists concentration as its duration, it takes a standard action to maintain as well. This goes for the moving objects, or for moving/immobilizing creatures.
However, it is unclear if a moved character with Gravity Hold (enemy or ally) provokes attack of opportunity. It doesn't have the no provoke clause Black Hole does. If they do provoke, you can use your reaction to hit them as you force them to move to a square you want. Ideally with a reach weapon so their melee attacks can't hit back.
Well, it also says it works as psychokinetic hand, which also requires a move action to move whatever the effect targets. So it's a standard to activate, a move to... move the target, and then a reaction attack if that is permitted. If the reaction is allowed, it might be decent, but without that, I'm not sure it'll meet with his approval.
He did look at Crush and Radiation, but as everyone points out, he'd need Charisma for those to be useful. Not sure if he'll opt to bump the Charisma to get some of those things or not.
The group got so hung up on the 4 characters vs 5 ship roles that they're trying (well, 3 of them are) to get a fifth player to join for next time. And they want her to play a multi-class Operative/Envoy... weird build... not at all sure it would be effective. Their reasoning was it was an Envoy with better damage output (via Operative) and lots of weird buffing/debuffing stuff... intimidate, net use, get em, debilitating shot later, etc. I don't like running for 5, but the build is weird enough that I'm almost curious to see it in action. :P Anyway... different topic, don't mean to sidetrack.
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I'm honestly thinking and designing my Solarion as a scout role. Good stealth, detect thoughts for threat analysis, decent perception (wis penalty in my build thanks to Lashunta).
I don't think of it as a Tank class. That's the soldiers role (in my opinion only).
But he can easily scout ahead and survive if he gets up,there. Long enough for the party to do its thing.
And I can see great potential for battlefield control too, but it's all situational. My second level ability is definitely going to be for DR. After that it depends how the game is panning out.
I'd go for flare most likely, because in all honesty, even though it's only one round, it's still a great debuff to the opponent to blind them or dazzle them. You're going to get one round where these things aren't going to be hitting you very well.
Anything beyond that I don't ever plan out. I hate the concept of fully planed builds, because I've always found we've had to adapt to the campaign as it runs.
I can say that in the group I'm playing my character in, He's (so far) the only melee focused character in our group.
I'm looking at playing a Kasatha Solarian Ace Pilot that is Cha and Dex focused. Operative weapons in melee, focus on ranged combat using small arms. Tactics will involve staying at range and shooting.
I'm looking at Gravity Boost and Flare as early revelations, but the Blazing Orbit and Defy Gravity revelations are what look like real winners. Not sure which of Ray of Light or Wormhole zenith revelations are better for battlefield movement. Their use would be very similar -- suddenly appear in a different location.
Kasatha are not ideal for this design, but I've a few amusing things I plan to do with it.
I think a Human would work much better since it would allow a better combination of Dexterity and Charisma.
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Solar weapon is not optimal. It's not bad. It keeps up or does a bit more than the same level adv melee weapon at most levels (see my initial data thread). It's optimal for heavy armor or ranged builds.
Solar armor is optimal for light armor builds. The plus 2 ac MATTERS as you level and I personally believe the Solarian's optimal style is a versatile disruptor that fills the cha party face role.
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Culture, Diplomacy, Stealth
1. Fleet, Skill Adept (Bluff, Culture), Solar Armor, Black Hole, Supernova
2. Gravity Boost
3. Jet Dash, Sidereal Influence(Diplomacy, Stealth), Weapon Specialization
4. Stellar Rush
5. Enhanced Resistance(Kinetic Damage) ||17str 14dex 12con 12int 10wis 16cha||
6. Crush
7. Iron Will, Flashing Strikes
8. Blazing Orbit
9. Blind-Fight, Zenith Revelations(Star Acceleration, Wormholes)
10. Stealth Wrap||18str 14dex 14con 14int 10wis 18cha|| Skill: Bluff
11. Deflect Projectiles, Sidereal Influence(Culture, Bluff)
12. Soul Furnace
13. Weapon Focus (adv melee), Solarian’s Onslaught
14. Gravity Shield
15. Skill Synergy(Diplomacy, Stealth)||18str 16dex 16con 16int 12wis 18cha|| Skill: Sense Motive
16. Astrologic Sense
17. Skill Synergy(Culture, Bluff), Zenith Revelations(Ray of Light,Time Dilation)
18. Gravity Hold
19. Skill Synergy(Intimidate, Sense Motive),Sidereal Influence(Intimidate, Sense Motive)
20. Hypnotic Glow, Stellar Paragon ||18str 18dex 18con 18int 14wis 18cha|| Skill: Intimidate
Stellar rush let's you charge as a standard action. Which means you can move at triple speed. Eventually your move action can leave a wall of fire.
Your job is to get the enemies out of cover for range allies and flank with melee allies. Out of combat your job is secondary skill monkey and party face barring an Envoy in the group. On the ship you are a gunner or a captain.
Solarian is not my favorite class, but it is one of the more difficult ones to understand. The higher HP and full BAB leads one to believe it is a soldier martial. It's not (you can force it that way by praising the sun). Those features just make up for your MAD as the space monk/paladin. Eventually it will be realised that once the levels get climbing that the strength of the class is battlefield control while being a damage power house.
These level one or two party experiences mean next to nothing. A good or bad experience is decided more by the dice rolls that night. But making a multi class mutt that dumps cha and neuters your 1st level zenith powers is in for a bad time. Cha is the key ability because all the good stuff works off of it, starting at level 1.
My analysis of the numbers states, you don't need optimal builds, but you need to avoid trash one's. Like multiclassing into a class where you dumped the main stat.
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I'm looking at playing a Kasatha Solarian Ace Pilot that is Cha and Dex focused. Operative weapons in melee, focus on ranged combat using small arms. Tactics will involve staying at range and shooting.
I'm curious (NOT criticising, genuinely curious) as to why you think the Solarian is a better choice for this than either a soldier or operative.
He did look at Crush and Radiation, but as everyone points out, he'd need Charisma for those to be useful. Not sure if he'll opt to bump the Charisma to get some of those things or not.
I'm a bit confused. If he's considering Gravity Hold, he'll need as much Charisma as for Crush and Radiation. In case it was missed, in the middle of the Gravity Hold it says:
"The creature can attempt a Fortitude save to negate the effect."and
"When you spend a standard action concentrating to maintain the gravity hold, the target can attempt a new save to end the effect."
When you target a creature, they get a save, unlike objects with Psychokinetic Hand. Just wanted to make sure that was clear.
And they want her to play a multi-class Operative/Envoy... [snip] Anyway... different topic, don't mean to sidetrack."
Forums are for advice, and I consider party composition in any single character build I do anyways, at least when I have an option to.
I mean, if you were to add said Envoy to the party, I would first make sure that is what the person wants to play and matches a character concept they like. You can optimize the party composition (which I am guilty of doing) but at the end of the day, you want everyone to have fun, not just the optimizer(s).
Although I will offer briefly that for an Envoy, I would suggest that an Operative multiclass doesn't mesh well. Envoy buffs/debuffs like using standard(Clever Attack/Improved Get 'Em)/move actions (Get 'Em, Quick Dispiriting Taunt), while trick attacks uses a full action, precluding any buffs. And the insight bonuses don't stack.
Same general advice goes for a Solarian. If he's not feeling the Solarian, then perhaps the group as a whole should consider if anyone else wants the melee role or if they need two melee or none.
Generally when I'm playing with my family, I ask what kinds of characters they want first, sketch out the basic personality, and then optimize them to death around those concepts, keeping in mind the rest of the party. If its sub-optimal from a party perspective, so be it, at least they're having fun. Although its sounds like this player enjoys the optimization part of the game and having the perfect fit with the party, which I can totally understand.
Anyways, perhaps a total party optimization thread should be started. So we can ask questions like, what are the other characters doing to support that Solarian in melee with their ranged abilities and spells? It shouldn't just be a one way street.
I'm curious (NOT criticising, genuinely curious) as to why you think the Solarian is a better choice for this than either a soldier or operative.I'm looking at playing a Kasatha Solarian Ace Pilot that is Cha and Dex focused. Operative weapons in melee, focus on ranged combat using small arms. Tactics will involve staying at range and shooting.
Solarian is the only one that needed a particular clarification.
No creature can use a reaction to interfere with your movement or make attacks of opportunity against you unless it's capable of reacting faster than the speed of light.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying Solarian or Kasatha are the optimal choices here. They both had things about them that interested me in this build.
I'm a bit confused. If he's considering Gravity Hold, he'll need as much Charisma as for Crush and Radiation.
Yes, he's aware of which power require saves or whatnot that will benefit from an actual Charisma score. He choice is boiling down to what another poster said: Go for all the solar non-DC power to amp up melee and leave it at that (the build he started with), or get a full Solarian with Charisma and see how the control aspects work out in play. He doesn't feel the level delay in the Solarian powers matter at all if he sticks with his current build, as he won't be getting or worrying about any that require Charisma.
The party kind of expects a "tank", but they aren't going to complain if he shows up with something less brutish. However, the Operative already serves as both the scout and the face. He has to have full BAB so the ship will have a competent gunner. The Mechanic and Operative also seem to have both computers and engineering locked up. He's not at all upset that any sort of out of combat side isn't needed, in fact he's glad it allows him to focus almost entirely on combat. What he's really considering is, should he just go full Soldier and be done with it. This is why I usually like to have an entire AP in hand before running it. I could get a feel for how much fire resistance there is through out, and whether the combats will push the need for control aspects more. But they insisted in diving into this blind, so that's what they get. :)
The potential Operative/Envoy player is used to playing Bards and the like. I'm the biggest hold out on taking the group to 5, as I think it will make the content too easy and then they'll all complain. This happened in one other AP... Skull & Shackles I think. I'll make another thread for the build.
@Mr H - My player would not agree that a one level dip with no Charisma built toward using the non-DC powers of the Solarian is "trash". Is it too far away from the Soldier? I don't know and he's working that out for himself.
As far as level 1 to 3 experiences, those were posted (in another thread) to give a feel for the experience for those that are interested, including Paizo who may or may not care how the material is received at any given level. Maybe I should have qualified his opinions better... level 1 dip or not, a low level Solarian felt underwhelming to my player. If most feel that's due to trying to shoehorn it into something it's not meant to be (strong melee presence), so be it.