Slayer is the real deal, and what the rogue really should have been - the only reason I didn't recommend it is because she noted that she was a n00b, I didn't want to be the first to say, "Play something else." (because that's... harsh to hear), and, later, she said that she wanted to stay as a rogue.
And I have to admit, there's something about the build of the rogue that just looks appealing. I mean, in principle, it looks/sounds/feels/whatever really neat! That's an emotional response that isn't stirred in the same way by classes like "bard" or "investigator" or "slayer" - and it's not just a matter of nomenclature, either, considering the instant you gain those spells from bards it becomes less interesting; that super-skilled mundane dude who isn't a mega-fighter, but can hit at the right time is an interesting trope for a reason, and "rogue" manages to encapsulate that as a concept very well... it just... doesn't manage to encapsulate it in a manner that is very effective (comparatively) in play.
This is why I really appreciate the vigilante - the avenger allows this without being super beefy (ala d10), while the stalker allows for a slightly different take.
But this isn't about the slayer or the vigilante. My inner fanboy is showing. Sorry!
As for the topic of my GM. We are both heavily invested in RP in The Old Republic MMO. We RP Pathfinder once a week on Sundays. I don't think he has access to the Unchained books and I won't ask him to get it, if he does not want to. I don't know if he is experienced or not, but he is my GM and I respect his decision. He had a look at Unchained Rogue and decided that it would be difficult for him to keep track of all the changes to the class, he was also worried it might be too powerful compared to others. I don't question it, he knows more than I do.
So I want to comment - I think your GM is probably doing fine, over-all, and he has valid concerns: there is a topic that he is only vaguely acquainted with (and hasn't done a deep system dive) and I will definitively say that URouge "feels" so much more powerful than the basic one that if you expect the Core classes to be relatively well balanced, you're going to strongly bank towards, "Wow, this just... doesn't feel right."
That is a normal, reasonable reaction.
Because it is predicated on a false presumption (that the Core classes are balanced) it is an incorrect reaction, but it is very reasonable.
It is even more reasonable (and a good idea) for you to not be pushy against your GM. I want to declare my support of you and your GM both, in this, even if I disagree with his assessment of its power.
If (and only if) your GM gets the time, I strongly recommend he look at the Pathfinder PRD - that's the official resource, part of this very website, run by Paizo who make the game we all share and play, Pathfinder. Unchained is a book they host for free (though it lacks the pictures, and sometimes some of the links and sections are counter-intuitive). The best part, though, is the Unchained classes. He should check those out. The barbarian and summoner are actually nerfed, compared to their basic counterparts, the monk received a sort-of-upgrade-sort-of-side-grade, and the rogue received an almost perfect "this is more like what it should have been" and badly needed upgrade. It is not more powerful than the other core classes, by-the-by. Casters are still the best (by a huge margin); with barbarians, paladins, and rangers (and bards) coming in cleanly at second, and thereafter, I'm not sure if Core fighters or Urogues are at third (I am not familiar enough with URogues, as I've not run them; I believe they are an upgrade from Core fighters, though). Core monks are still the worst.
If you're not interested in Unchained, the Ninja is still a superior class, over-all - not everything involving the ninja is better, but, on the whole, it is superior (because, for example, it gets smoke bombs and vanish as built-in options in the class).
I understand that Mobility is a poop feat for a Rogue. So perhaps...
- Weapon Focus Shortsword (I do want that +1 to attack)
- Combat Expertise
- Dodge
- Improved Feint
- Iron Will
- Greater Feint/Something, perhaps Improved Dirty Trick?I need to read up on what I can use in combat. I knew I can use Bluff for Feint, but this Tumble with Acrobatics never occurred to me. I wonder what else did I miss.
Probably, if you're anything like the rest of us: an awful lot. There are a ton of moving parts to PF (too many, in my mind, even as a fan) and it's really easy to let details slip by you on accident. This doesn't mean you're a bad player, though. We're just obsessive. XD
I would tend to gently encourage you away from WF to get those "help me live" bonuses earlier, but it's not a hard sell - it's up to you, really.
I think I will try to make her more of a... Play defensively, till you can get an upper hand or your allies came to help you, kind of a character. That means focusing on Feint and Acrobatics. For ranged I am still thinking of using the Rogue Talents to get access to alchemist bombs, because I like the idea.
This is a fairly solid idea, over-all - making the character the one you want to play is important. I do want you to also enjoy that character, however, hence the various advice given.
Other than that... Need to talk to my GM about our pay for what we are doing. My almost 170 GP is nothing compared to what others said about 1k GP by that time.
Your GM may be saving up for some larger payout, later, may be running a lower wealth game, or may simply be running lower-treasure encounters for various reasons.
According to the wealth-by-level chart, your total liquid value should be somewhere near ~500 gold at the halfway mark; this includes your various mundane items (so, your tents, backpack, etc.), your weapons and armor, and any animals or other things you have (so that horse might be a thing making it harder).
The wealth per encounter chart shows you how much you should be getting (more or less) per fight (though "building a treasure horde" encourages you to put in places it makes sense - the monsters and bad guys don't spontaneously bust into coins, no matter how cool Scott Pilgrim Verses the World is), though some of that (roughly ~1/3, I think?) is expected to be used in consumables for healing, recover, single-shot uses, or the like.
In general, talking is always a good idea, if you have concerns - discussing things in a stress- and pressure-free non-confrontational way is usually ideal. But, and this is important, take any advice here as generic, broadly-applicable advice, and not as advice always pertinent to your specific table. We can only discuss things that are broadly true - specific tables, circumstances, and elements are always going to vary to some extent from any hypothetically objectively true statements we may or may not make about the system.
Hope that helps!
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Yeah Weapon Focus isn't worth the +1 to hit.
Weapon Focus as a gateway drug to better feats is worthwhile.
Here's a hint: Go HERE and use CTRL+F to search the page for "weapon foc" to see all the feats that Weapon Focus is the prerequisite for.
Once you do that, you've don't your first "search for optimal feat path options"
You'll find that most of those Weapon-Focus feats are pretty sub-par for a Rogue (way better for Fighters), which means that as you level up, those feats will become more and more like dead weight.
This is why some of us are pushing so hard for Improved Feint.
- it doesn't use your base attack bonus ("BAB"), and thus doesn't suffer a -1 to -5 penalty compared to warrior types (who have higher BAB).
- it uses your Bluff skill, which is an incredibly useful skill for Rogues; it makes something very useful even more useful. Thus if you focus on your Bluff skill, your Feint combat maneuver benefits too (great investment). Taking Skill Focus - Bluff gives you +3 to bluff (and thus to feint)... +6 when you have 10 or more ranks. At level 20, you'll have (20ranks +3class +6feat) +29+CHA to bluff (and feint). Add some lesser items... a circlet or persuasion and a headband of +2 CHA and total bonus is +35.
Read this and look at the DC, then look at monster in the bestiary... your feint will work far more often than not. At level 20, you'll have a 75% chance to feint a Balor, and a 65% or higher to feint a Pit Fiend or ancient Red Dragon. Or take Skill Mastery [bluff] and feint 100% of the time because you can always take 10.
- it allows you to use your sneak attack (your most notable class ability in combat) more often and in more situations.
- it denies enemies their dexterity which makes you hit more often. If the target's DEX bonus is +3, then a successful feint is worth three times Weapon Focus for that attack.
See how all that makes it almost EXPONENTIAL in value? Whereas Weapon Focus is more linear... and its value (relative to everything else) diminishes the more you level up. When bonuses from spells and effects regularly become +4 or more (around level 11+) then Weapon Focus will be less relevant.
Your GM needs be neither lazy nor a liar when they say that it's too complicated or whatever to learn the Unchained Rules. He just needs to be busy, have a life, not have tons of finances or time, and other general stress-related or concentration-related things. It's a legitimate thing.
If we were talking something like the kineticist, or an entirely new subsystem like Psionics, then I could get that. Unchained Rogue, though, is less complicated than many archetypes and doesn't introduce any new or unusual mechanic. Maybe I am being a bit harsh, but reading something my players want to use is the least you can do.
Yet, as we just learned, he doesn't actually own the books, not everyone has a solid grasp of both what is available here and on d20pfsrd.com (my favorite rules site), and even if they did, that is a lot of time to comb over a heavy set of potential rules interactions that you might not really have - mentally - to pour over a book that (from your knowledge and perspective, which, due to being human, is fundamentally limited) may or may not have a nested set of subsystems that could have rippling repercussions throughout the game system as a whole.
Or, you know, you do that, but there could be that one small thing that you overlook that either the player doesn't realize they're doing wrong or you don't that entirely breaks the whole thing open.
Or there could be that one little thing that everyone is doing right at your table that less-play-tested books like Unchained haven't really seen much discussion about that entirely wreck your campaign because you used assumptions from another source.
Or you're just not on these forums.
And that's really my point: we don't know what his personal circumstances are (emotionally, mentally, daily life, time, etc.) and he's clearly the one they're currently relying on to GM, so... I would tend to guess he's got his hands full.
But I tend to try to give people the benefit of the doubt.
#psionicsisthebest #yourubesneedtogetyouracttogether #whydoesn'teverybodyusepsionicsalreadydangit
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I would just like to weigh in to say
A) I love you Tacticslion your rambling charm is hilarious
B) I don't buy the I'm busy unchained rogue is stressful thing, it shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to open the unchained rogues page on various websites and read to let's say level 5 (for a party of level 1s you don't really need to know more than that yet, it's not like they're going to get game breaking spells or something)
C) the only thing that could possibly be confusing is unchained skills, if they are, remove them everything else is simple to the he point of tedium and the unchained rogue is not too powerful at all so if that's the DMs concern and he hasn't banned clerics/wizards/druids/sorcs/oracles/arcanists/witches/shamans/psychics then he really shouldn't find the unchained rogue a threat. Frankly it's still weaker than bards/alchemists/investigators/inquisitors which are all it's biggest competitors.
D) would the dirty trick line be a possible avenue? Build towards debuffing the battle field rather than destroying it?
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My GM does own some of the PDFs I belive, but surely not all. And as I said, I don't argue. It's my first ever game in Pathfinder, so I listen and learn the system for now. My only other P&P experience is Afterbomb Madness, which is a local polish system. I managed to build an utterly overpowered sniper/gunslinger there by accident and was the Chuck Noris of that fallout universe.
But back to topic... I will rush the Feint over Focus. And since I started to read about combat maneuvers, I like the Dirty Trick more and more. Improved Feint gives me a Sneak Attack bonus on one attack. But a successful Dirty Trick will make the target lose his Dex bonus to AC for all my other party members, as one of the examples. But the possibilities are numerous. Kick a branch or bucket under his legs to make him trip. And so much more... Maybe I will just start with Dirty Trick and go for Feint?
It pains me that there are so many choices and so little slots to pick them. Like I can force all my rogue talents into feats, and get a lot of stuff, but I feel like I would rid myself of a lot of Rogue flavor by doing this. I don't want to make my Rogue a subpar Fighter, because there is some melee "Standard". I want to have fun with the class, whether it works or not :D
So... I like the idea of kicking sand in the eyes or a bucket in them stones. We will see... I also like the idea of Elana using Smoke Bomb to escape, or Blinding Bomb to turn a close fight in her favor. It just feels dirty and I like how it works with the idea of her I have.
Edit:
If I ware to count up all my items that I have, I would be somewhere around 340-400 GP I belive. I have a lot of... Miscellaneous items. Chalk, pitons, rope, hammer, grooming kit, mess kit, thieves' tools, so on and so on.
Edit2:
And it's a pony, not a horse! Named Cookie because he is all brown with darker spots, like a chocolate chip cookie :D
I'm playing the Core Rogue. GM didn't want to kearn the changes for Unchained.
Walk into melee combat.
Die
reroll character as anything else. Try bard.
Or just be the NPC in the party. Pump UMD like crazy and beg the GM for cool wands. Take Nature Soul, Animal Ally, and Boon Companion. You can also go for Iron Will, Familiar Bond, Improved Familiar Bond and then grab the mauler familiar archetype. I would go for the Animal companion first, then for an owl familiar. Just use skills for out of combat.
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Careful with Dirty Trick.
It uses Combat Maneuver Bonus, not a skill.
Rogues usually have bad CMB for their level.
You may find yourself using a maneuver that almost never works and that can get frustrating.
For bombs, note that the Bomber talent is from the Pathfinder Player Companion: Ranged Tactics Toolbox Paperback. Not sure if that's allowed by your GM.
You also don't need any special feats to use a Smoke Pellet (LINK). They're 25gp apiece. If you get a +10 bonus on Craft Alchemy (or +8 bonus and masterwork alchemist tools) you can make your own for half price. Other items you can use/make include thunderstones and flash powder, to create the sort of results you're looking for.
Ironically, though, if you want to "smoke bomb escape"... well Bluff lets you get similar results that for free, at will, as per the Stealth skill
"Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you."
I like to think of that as doing something subtle, like looking over someone's shoulder in a way that they think something's behind them. They glance, see nothing is there, and then when they look back at you, you've suddenly vanished!
Little mind games like that.
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Agile Maneuvers mitigates that problem a little.
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My GM does own some of the PDFs I belive, but surely not all. And as I said, I don't argue.
Yup! You're doing just fine. Don't let anyone else here tell you differently!
It's my first ever game in Pathfinder, so I listen and learn the system for now.
That's fair. We do want to manage your expectations - your character may well die - you may be okay, but, in general, we wanted to make sure you're ready for the possibility, because dice don't always play fair.
My only other P&P experience is Afterbomb Madness, which is a local polish system.
You're in Poland! How nice! What part?
Have you talked to any of our other Polish folks around here?
Drejk and Gorbacz are around! Others are, too!
You might have a good time chatting with them, and might even be able to meet up at some time! I'm from America, but I spent much of the 90s (when I was in elementary and, eventually, Highschool) in Lithuania, so I used to kind-of-sort-of know some Polish phrases by default. I, uh... I don't anymore, and have even less ability to type them out. XD
I managed to build an utterly overpowered sniper/gunslinger there by accident and was the Chuck Noris of that fallout universe.
Sweet! Sounds fun!
It pains me that there are so many choices and so little slots to pick them. Like I can force all my rogue talents into feats, and get a lot of stuff, but I feel like I would rid myself of a lot of Rogue flavor by doing this. I don't want to make my Rogue a subpar Fighter, because there is some melee "Standard". I want to have fun with the class, whether it works or not :D
That pain is one that all non-magics share (magic users, too, but less so). Otherwise, you've got the right idea!
Edit:
If I ware to count up all my items that I have, I would be somewhere around 340-400 GP I belive. I have a lot of... Miscellaneous items. Chalk, pitons, rope, hammer, grooming kit, mess kit, thieves' tools, so on and so on.Edit2:
And it's a pony, not a horse! Named Cookie because he is all brown with darker spots, like a chocolate chip cookie :D
Yay, Cookie! Sorry - my apologies about the pony/horse distinction. XD
So it sounds like you're at about expected value, maybe a little under (because eventually mundane stuff and consumables are just kind of meh - not useless, but not really helping you out in any significant way, either).
I think, over-all, if you manage your own expectations, and go in understanding that, on average, you're likely to struggle with doing some things, and focus on your strengths, you'll be able to have fun and probably learn some stuff.
As I said - "rogue" is one of my favorite Core concept classes, along with "monk"... but I am required by honesty to admit that they're just sub-par, when it comes to actual capability, both in combat/survival and in achieving what they're supposed to do.
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I'm playing the Core Rogue. GM didn't want to kearn the changes for Unchained.Walk into melee combat.
Die
reroll character as anything else. Try bard.
Or just be the NPC in the party. Pump UMD like crazy and beg the GM for cool wands. Take Nature Soul, Animal Ally, and Boon Companion. You can also go for Iron Will, Familiar Bond, Improved Familiar Bond and then grab the mauler familiar archetype. I would go for the Animal companion first, then for an owl familiar. Just use skills for out of combat.
Ah, there we are. I think we're improving as a forum - it took us until part way down page two! XD
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It's worth noting: the math is real. When people tell you the blue/green/orange divide, they're not being facetious, or needless, or artificially constraining fun to a math formula.
The reason those formulas exist is not a measure of "this is what you need for us to accept you" but rather, "these values tend to ensure that you feel like a reasonably competent character who can achieve what you want to within a margin of failure/success normally acceptable to the emotional state of most players."
That is - if you go by those numbers, you'll usually succeed in a broad-spectrum sort of way, but the dice will also have an outcome (unless you hit blue, then you're almost guaranteed to auto-succeed - those formulas are not there to tell you always hit blue).
I mention this because math is an important part of this game. RP can mitigate it somewhat, especially with more lenient GMs, but there are general trends that can be tracked and followed.
Math isn't telling you that you're having fun "wrong" but rather the likelihood of consistent success... although most people prefer to have some measure of success in order to have fun, so it's a corollary. :)
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There's something to be said about allowing the rule of cool to have a circumstantial bonus when the situation is exceptional. It's completely another things to use it to patch a weak class. Especially when there are a ton of mechanical options to facilitate these things. Like how is the fighter who took dazzling display going to feel when the GM allows the rogue to demoralize an entire room as a move or swift action?
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Oh, my GM is a cool guy and we talk a lot about stuff, story and everything. Our PF game might be heavily story driven, but we will see.
I guess if I use a sap on an unsuspecting guard, he won't ask me to roll for dmg and hope for a one hit knock out, but will just assume the guy knocked out.
And so far we assumed everything that's on paizo site as valid to use in character development. So Bomber will be okay.
As for character concept, yes... I don't have to be optimal in combat. In fact it would fit Elana's personality not to be. She is an opportunist and trickster. If she walks into melee, she is a bad rogue. No stealth, no plan, might as well yell "Here I am, kill me." I am confident that my GM will know how to lead fights with logic, as a bulky paladin in full plate will pose a higher threat to the random bandit than a girl with a small sword. She will dance around the fight if I can manage it, using bluff and stealth to get to targets that are exposed and/or weakened. Yes, it might drop more preasure on the other two players, but if I can make a proper distraction, it's all good.
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Oh, my GM is a cool guy and we talk a lot about stuff, story and everything. Our PF game might be heavily story driven, but we will see.
I guess if I use a sap on an unsuspecting guard, he won't ask me to roll for dmg and hope for a one hit knock out, but will just assume the guy knocked out.
And so far we assumed everything that's on paizo site as valid to use in character development. So Bomber will be okay.
As for character concept, yes... I don't have to be optimal in combat. In fact it would fit Elana's personality not to be. She is an opportunist and trickster. If she walks into melee, she is a bad rogue. No stealth, no plan, might as well yell "Here I am, kill me." I am confident that my GM will know how to lead fights with logic, as a bulky paladin in full plate will pose a higher threat to the random bandit than a girl with a small sword. She will dance around the fight if I can manage it, using bluff and stealth to get to targets that are exposed and/or weakened. Yes, it might drop more preasure on the other two players, but if I can make a proper distraction, it's all good.
In fact it isn't your role to shine in combat, you can certainly offer support to your allies during battles supposing that certain conditions are met or if you have the right tools at hand, but it isn't your main area of interest. Your role as a face is to shine outside combat and, if possibile, to avoid combat at all through diplomacy, deception or intimidation depending on the situation and what skill you chose to develop more supposing you have the possibility to talk at least a bit with your potential opponents before a battle breaks out. Sometimes entirely avoiding a battle through the use of a good speech, at least according to my opinion, is seriously more funny than fighting one and certainly offer more opportunities of roleplaying. As a face you have the tools to make this come real and, sometimes, also gain advantage from the situation entirely turning the tides. As a long you at least try to do this, you are a good face. You can also complement your activity as a face acting as a scout that stealthily goes on recognition to note a danger ahead of time and acting as a trapfinder and a sabouter (in fact Disable Device is useful not only to disable traps, but also other kind of devices, for example a wagon or a catapult, and to open closed locks). But you have never never to forget one, and only one, important thing, maybe the most important of them all, as long as you have fun playing and roleplaying your character everything is going right no matter how worse the situation can be in game.
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Okay, I have a better understanding of what to do with the class now. But... We forgot of one important thing. Feats I understand more or less. Weapons and playstyle as well. Time for rogue talents!
So I've been browsing them, and... Damn there are a lot... Here are some I consider... Interesting? Or viable? Preferred? With my limited knowledge of the game. But I would love some advice, I can only pick like... 5?
Combat offence:
- Bomber
- Bomber's Discovery
Combat defence:
- Emboldening Strike
- Offensive Defence
Magic feel:
- The Whole Time
- Occult Dungeoneer
- Shadow Duplicate
- Spell Storing
- Silencing Strike
- Minor/Major/Gloom Magic
- Innocent Facade
Thief feel:
- Face in the Crowd
- Honeyed Words
- Scavenger
- Hairpin Trick
Movement stuff:
- Rope Master
- Ledge Walker
- Fast Stealth
- Expert Leaper
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I've always loved Bleeding Strike and Offensive Defense.
Bleeding Strike is fun because you can hit an opponent once and then just hide (bluff to distract, stealth behind cover) and wait for them to bleed out.
If you're in a big battle, use Bleeding Strike once on each enemy.
To stop the bleeding, the target is forced to use an action (their own or someone else's) to heal. So the target is left with the choice: more damage, or lose a turn? Either way it's good for you, bad for them. Many creatures don't even have that option (like animals, or most magical beasts) and are doomed to bleed out... doomed creature is doomed.
Offensive Defense is great because as long as you're delivering sneak attacks, you're harder (for your victim) to hit. It's basically a "duel dominance" talent, especially mixed with (you guessed it) Improved Feint! Each round just Feint and Sneak Attack, and your AC is higher.
Both of these don't replace your sneak attack damage; they just add more effects to it. So if you manage to get two sneak attacks off on an opponent in one round, one will be Offensive Defense, and the other will have Bleeding Strike.
So those are combat.
If I were to pick two more talents, I would probably go with Trap Spotter (trap auto-detection) and Fast Stealth (no penalty when using stealth at full speed). I really like Ledge Walker, but the more I think about it, it wouldn't get used often. Fast Stealth would be used all the time, both in and out of combat. As for traps, most traps happen because you forget to search for them. With Trap Spotter, you never have to remember; the GM has to :D
Then you get into the Advanced Talents... which is another post
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Oh! I forgot...
A different way to go is the Minor/Major magic route, which is great too.
Minor Magic: Favorite choices for spells are Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, or Spark
Major Magic: Great spell choices include Chill Touch, Color Spray, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Icicle Dagger, Jump, Obscuring Mist, Shadow Weapon, Shield, Stone Fist, True Strike, Unseen Servant, Vanish
The damaging spells (Chill Touch, Icicle Dagger, Shadow Weapon, Stone Fist) are all spells that work for more that one attack and also can be used to deliver sneak attack. Spells like Burning Hands and Magic Missile don't have attack rolls, and thus can't deliver sneak attacks. The motto here is: Don't make selections that neglect your class abilities, because then you're spreading yourself too thin.
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From level 10 onward you get Advanced Talents... a total of 6.
Here are my favorites.
Skill Mastery: 5 or more skills can take 10 under any strenuous circumstance. Suggestions = Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Stealth, Use Magic Device.
Opportunist: Best when paired with Combat Reflexes feat.
Fast Tumble
Familiar: If you took the minor & major magic talents, this is pretty nice. Especially since a familiar has all the same skill ranks (just ranks) of their master. This means your familiar is an incredibly capable trickster in its own right. If you pick a Rat, you also get +2 on Fortitude saves as well. If you pick a scorpion familiar, you get +2 initiative, and its poison DC increases as you level up.
Crippling Strike: If you already have them bleeding and you already boosted your AC with Offensive Defense, here is a third sneak attack type - strength damage
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i'd also say go for touch spell sneak attack. You can easily use twf for those if you want to and it also makes you very versatile as soon as you get some wands and stuff.
Another option would be a dex to damage sap master build. Combine with scout to get off one devastating strike per round while keeping good AC. You need the blade of mercy trait though.
Third one is THF with something like a longhammer, add vital strike and sap feats, maybe even enforcer for debuffing fun and be very mobile while striking really hard each round... less defense than going dex based but you can pick up power attack for sweet amounts of damage.
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Bullcrap, as I shall shortly demonstrate. (And a GM not wanting PCs sucking down every splat they downloaded off the internet is not an unreasonable expectation, especially if it's going to be a low-level campaign.)I'm playing the Core Rogue. GM didn't want to kearn the changes for Unchained.Seriously? That's a pretty lame excuse. It strikes me that this GM either has poor judgement or is inexperienced himself. I would never leave a beginner alone with the core rogue; it's a newbie trap and could have a detrimental effect on the player's enjoyment of the game.
Str 11
Dex 16
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 14
Cha 14
First thing, play a halfling. Now your stats are:
STR-09
DEX+18
CON:12
INT:14
WIS:10
CHA+16
racial trait: Fleet of Foot
traits: Reactionary, Lucky Halfling
Benefits (versus human rogue):
* AC: +2
* att(ranged or finesse): +2
* saves: Ft+1, Rf+2, Wi+1, Fear+3
* Stealth: +5
* Perception: +2
Still want to be a human? ...put on your Hat of Disguise.
~ ~ ~
Build considerations: remaining "chained" means you won't be getting DEX bonus to damage prior to money for Agile weaponry. Aside from that, you'll need an extra feat for Weapon Finesse. Denied high-power TWF early, we explore other options:
1. figh1 Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
...don't be afraid to dip a martial class at 1st in a non-caster.
2. rogu1 [SA+1d6]
3. rogu2 [talent:combat trick:Dodge], Mobility
4. rogu3 [SA+2d6]
5. figh2 Spring Attack, FEAT(g)
6. rogu4 [talent:Trap Spotter]
-- The "early" chassis is now done, locking in Spring Attack and maximum INIT and AC paths (Combat Expertise at 5th if you really need to turtle up.) If money pours in quickly enough for a pair of Agile weapons, take Two Weapon Fighting earlier.
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Actually she's a Half Elf.
Her name is Elana, she is a Half Elf. Her Racial Traits are Low Light Vision, Keen Senses, Drow Magic and Elven Immunities.
Hey wait a minute...
Hey NaeNae, have you considered swapping out Drow Magic to get back Adaptability (free Skill Focus feat such as Bluff or Stealth)? Since you also get back Multitalented you can dual class as well.Perhaps then a few levels in an INT or CHA based caster will help you out. Your INT and CHA can get you up to 4th level spells before needing an increase. That's up to level 8 in (Wizard or Witch), or level 9 in (Sorcerer or Oracle), or level 12 in (Alchemist or Bard or Summoner).
You could even build using Arcane Trickster:
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...most people try to avoid stats below 10 for good reason.
"Most people" don't know what they're doing. Once a DEX-based PC acquires either rogu3(unchained) or Agile equipment, he needs STR to beat gravity into submission and little else.
The most powerful builds in the game exploit a "dump stat" to shift point-buy and/or racial-bump points into "prime state". A rogue's prime stat is dexterity, and he's also lightly-armored and low-con, and hence getting hit less and making saving throws are of greater importance than normal. (Hence my halfling suggestion, as they are better at those two things collectively than any other race.)
Half-elves (especially half-drow) are OK for Ancestral Arms or Skill Focus(Perception) in a rogue, but the weaker saves and AC will inevitably manifest down the road.
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You could even build using Arcane Trickster:
Level up to Rogue3
Switch to [arcane class with Mage Hand in list] and level up to [Wizard3 or Witch3 or Summoner4 or Bard4 or Sorcerer4]. Whichever class among these you pick is also a favored class.
Next 10 levels are Arcane Trickster
Last few levels are [Favored Caster Class] or [Rogue]
While Arcane Trickster is doable, it's a different beast entirely from a typical Rogue. I personally wouldn't recommend this to a beginner (and with only 14 intelligence it will be tight to get this to work) but it is doable. More importantly, though, the build you've described is not the way you go about making an Arcane Trickster.
Arcane Tricksters should never have more than 1 level in Rogue. If you want more than 1 level in Rogue, this means Arcane Trickster isn't what you want to be doing. Arcane Tricksters are Wizards (or Sorcerers or Arcanists, if you prefer) first and foremost, and you should only pursue this prestige class if that's what you want to be doing. Use the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to fulfill the prerequisite instead of additional Rogue levels.
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Ehhh... The character is established Half-Elf and she is already been RPed. I will not change her race or anything during already ongoing RP. I have not used Drow Magic yet, so perhaps my GM will allow me to tinker with it, but truth be told, I don't think I feel comfortable with multiclassing. It's just another layer of mechanics I will have to control, which might just be too much for someone that does not know how combat works.
And all your "pick fighter", "pick slayer", "pick XYZ class and drop rogue at lvl 3" is just... I donno... Rogues are no fighters. I understand as much. Their bonuses to attack are too low, their hp is mediocre. Their uniqueness comes from the highest amount of skills per level, which I intend to use. No other class has so easy skill checks than Rogue. And I believe that's where I should focus my attention. I will never match full BAB classes in damage, simply because I am fully relying on them to deal my damage. End of.
I intend to pick Offensive Defense at level 2 and Combat Expertise at level 3. Then Bomber at 4, Improved Feint at 5 and Fast Stealth at 6. Dodge at 7. I will grab a masterwork short sword when I can, a wand or two as well, if they are available. Maybe rob some stores if it comes to that. I know I want to aim for a Shadow Armor somewhat later, because it's just perfect for Elana,
Although until I level up and am forced to make the decision, nothing is certain. I might just as well pick something utterly different on level 2, as I have a habit of doing :D
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Whilst I commend your attitude this
No other class has so easy skill checks than Rogue.
isn't really true.
Investigators get bonus's from skills outside of rank and get +6 skills per level, and investing in intelligence helps their class features so they're likely to start with 9 or 10 ranks per level and that will rise.
Bards, Mesmerists and Inquisitors are +6 skill classes with static bonuses to skills or other class features that boost skills which make them better faces and in the case of Bards and Inquisitors also better librarian's than rogues.
Alchemists will also end up with higher int due to incentivised Int investment, although they're likely to only start with 7/8 skills per level. The same goes for occultists although they also get some static bonuses to skills aside from rank.
All that said rogues still make good skill monkeys and I think your attitude towards the class to try and work with what you have is a good idea.
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Ehhh... The character is established Half-Elf and she is already been RPed. I will not change her race or anything during already ongoing RP. I have not used Drow Magic yet, so perhaps my GM will allow me to tinker with it.Sounds fair enough. The only reason I mentioned it is because those SLAs are... well I'd rather have Skill Focus, personally. Maybe I'm being silly by saying that.
I intend to pick Offensive Defense at level 2 and Combat Expertise at level 3. Then Bomber at 4, Improved Feint at 5 and Fast Stealth at 6. Dodge at 7.Not a fan of Dodge. I picked it in my build and regretted it ever since. Using a feat for +1 AC and +1 CMD, when you could instead add to a more focused build chain... yeah I kicked myself. It's up to you, but IMO Dodge is a mistake unless it's part of some greater build plan.
Although until I level up and am forced to make the decision, nothing is certain. I might just as well pick something utterly different on level 2, as I have a habit of doing :D
Yeah. I always do a 20 level build, but as the game goes on I realize that this or that choice doesn't work as well for this campaign. Take my Dwarven Ranger for example... we've spent so much time fighting undead, and so much time in the woods, than I completely threw out my initial plans for Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain, and adjusted my choices to meet the pressures of the campaign.
But it's still very useful to have a plan. It gives you direction, and makes you think about how feats and abilities and skills interact and play off each other. Then as the game progresses, you tweak the plan. It makes you wiser each time you lay out the 20 levels of choices, and learn from how the choices work when theyre implemented.
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I support your decision to play rogue, fully, and hope you have a great time!
That said...
Their uniqueness comes from the highest amount of skills per level, which I intend to use. No other class has so easy skill checks than Rogue. And I believe that's where I should focus my attention.
... this... isn't quite true.
Again, the argument I'm about to make is not telling you that you're playing it wrong, or saying you should change (point in fact: you should play what you want, so long as everyone's having fun) but it's to help you gain a grasp of the nuances of the very complex system, by way of a striking example of how what seems true on the surface... isn't quite.
While it appears that way, on the surface - that rogues are the unparalleled skill masters -, the truth is much more nuanced and makes this less accurate.
Without suggesting that you change classes, I'll let you know, the best two skill classes in the game (which outclass rogues by a fair margin) are bard and investigator - bard can have significantly more skills than anyone else in the game, while investigator can get higher regular-use skill values than anyone else in the game.
The investigator's facility with skills comes in two varieties: alchemy (various extracts) and inspiration; these two abilities are really complex, though, and the varieties of inspirations (especially with archetypes) make guessing what kind of investigator you want to be a bit difficult. Either way, investigators, though technically having fewer skill points (at 6+ instead of 8+) actually tend to equal or exceed rogues, as the class as a whole is heavily invested in intelligence, and will often buff it as high as possible. In any event, all this is very complicated, and is not terribly obvious - especially considering they're not in the Core book.
That's the short one, and I probably missed stuff.
Then comes their suuuuuuuuuper tricky part. Admittedly, this doesn't start until second level... but then the bards just kind of periodically explode into metric ton of new skills. At second level, sixth level, tenth level, fourteenth level, and eighteenth level, they gain an ability called versatile performance. This is a really weird thing to give them, and it feels weird from a story perspective, but it is very thematic. It allows them to use their Perform skill instead of two other skills.
> Act (Bluff, Disguise)
> Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate)
> Dance (Acrobatics, Fly)
> Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate)
> Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive)
> Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate)
> Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive)
> String (Bluff, Diplomacy)
> Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal)
Now, you should notice a lot of overlap. But look at those skills!
While you're spending more and more in Perform, you're getting better at all sorts of things.
You'll likely going to want act, dance, and percussion at some point in your career for the least-common skills (disguise, acrobatics and fly, and handle animal, respectively), which means, with an oratory, you get the last two skills. By investing in four perform skills, you've gotten either new skills. Even if you don't count all of those performance skills (as they are a form of skill tax), without any intelligence bonus, a bard is - in effect - up to fifteen skills per level on average.
You get versatile performance up to five times, and if you've take the four listed, you've covered all the skills. But wait! There's more! If you look under versatile performance in the link to the bard class I left above, you'll see that there is a set of Advanced Versatile Performance techniques you can grab, and that's pretty sweet. With the skill version, you can add escape artist or use magic device. With the martial version, you get free a free proficiency or weapon focus depending on your chosen performances (if you follow the list above, it'll be something from the close, double, monk, spear, hammer, heavy blade, or light blade fighter weapon groups) and/or a weapon focus out of it.
"But I want to be good at bluff or diplomacy or whatever before I get those levels!" you might (very justifiably!) say, "And, really, how to I justify being that good all of a sudden?" (another fair question).
The short version, is that either you don't, you RP it as a sudden epiphany of a performer, or you invest a few skill ranks over time and then, when you get VP, go in for retraining to put your skills where you want.
Either way, you're getting better and better on top of already having been near to the best. And, even if you don't want to spend all those skill points, you can nab circlets of intelligence and gain more skills that way, slowly increasing your intelligence to choose specific performance skills over time.
As an aside, the bard's skill list: Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
The investigator's skill list: Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
The rogue's skill list: Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
In common, they have: Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering, local), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Semi-unique to the bard: Knowledge (all) (Int), Spellcraft (Int)
Semi-unique to the investigator: Disable Device (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Spellcraft (Int)
Semi-unique to the rogue: Disable Device (Dex), Swim (Str)
So, you know, at least disable device and swim are unique!
... except you can get various traits that give these as a class skill. You could also do the reverse - partially - by focusing on heal and spellcraft... but there isn't a way you could nab "all" knowledge skills.
Alternatively, as a bard, once you hit 16th level, you gain all skills as a class skill. What's more, with jack of all trades, at 10th level, you can make any skill check without being trained anyway. Plus, in addition to all of this, bards have spells - and have a ton of spells they can choose that augment their own skill abilities, much like the investigator alchemy abilities.
All this said, the bard's "I can do anything" doesn't come online until 10th level, and they don't get all of their "effective" skill points until 14th level. Nonetheless, with only their bardic knowledge, they're ahead of the curve by a large margin, and if you focus on intelligence with a secondary on charisma (so DCs aren't your focus), you can be just about the most skilled individual in the game.
I'm sure I short-changed the investigator - I honestly just didn't look much. Sorry!
In the end, none of this is telling you that you're playing the game incorrectly - in fact, you're doing a good job, it seems, and you're willing to try and enjoy, no matter what: that's awesome! That's doing it right!
Instead, I'm just pointing out that, despite their apparent mastery of skills, their rogue talents just can't compare to spells and other class features from other classes.
Note, to head off any argument: the bard is a core class; the investigator thus do not count as example(s) of "power creep" but more of "power level matching" with in-game example(s) - - of what can already be accomplished in Core.
Anyway, that's a loooooooooot of information to digest. Please do so at your leisure - it's not actually applicable to your current character, and isn't really important in your game; it is only here to explain a numbers-value comparison.
Man, was I ever ninja'd and didn't realize it!
Mesmerists
Dang it, I knew I was forgetting a class!
Sigh.
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...most people try to avoid stats below 10 for good reason.Str 8 is perfectly adequate for a small character wearing light armor.
I ran a TWF samurai in PFS with a STR of 7. (He UMD' Mage Armor.)
Also had a Lame-cursed gnome oracle with a STR of 5 who was welded to the saddle of her animal companion/mount.
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Ehhh... The character is established Half-Elf and she is already been RPed. I will not change her race or anything during already ongoing RP. I have not used Drow Magic yet, so perhaps my GM will allow me to tinker with it, but truth be told, I don't think I feel comfortable with multiclassing. It's just another layer of mechanics I will have to control, which might just be too much for someone that does not know how combat works.
And all your "pick fighter", "pick slayer", "pick XYZ class and drop rogue at lvl 3" is just... I donno... Rogues are no fighters. I understand as much. Their bonuses to attack are too low, their hp is mediocre. Their uniqueness comes from the highest amount of skills per level, which I intend to use. No other class has so easy skill checks than Rogue. And I believe that's where I should focus my attention. I will never match full BAB classes in damage, simply because I am fully relying on them to deal my damage. End of.
I intend to pick Offensive Defense at level 2 and Combat Expertise at level 3. Then Bomber at 4, Improved Feint at 5 and Fast Stealth at 6. Dodge at 7. I will grab a masterwork short sword when I can, a wand or two as well, if they are available. Maybe rob some stores if it comes to that. I know I want to aim for a Shadow Armor somewhat later, because it's just perfect for Elana,
Although until I level up and am forced to make the decision, nothing is certain. I might just as well pick something utterly different on level 2, as I have a habit of doing :D
I would reccomend switching offensive defense and bomber around, and think of something else other than dodge. Offensive defense just isn't that good level 2-3. And bombs well they hit touch AC!
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Not a fan of Dodge. I picked it in my build and regretted it ever since. Using a feat for +1 AC and +1 CMD, when you could instead add to a more focused build chain... yeah I kicked myself.
You shouldn't. It keeps you alive as a rogue.
-- It's just that the GM never informs you every time the drooling Improved Grab monster missed your AC by 1 (prompting you to go, "Oh yeah, baby; Dodge is the best feat evah!").
And it leads to Mobility, which is almost a get-out-of-jail-free card when you're boxed into a corner and need to get out past multiple AoOs. And which, in turn, leads to Spring Attack, which is quite nice for producing an extra 3d6 on any turn our rogue5 needs to move anyway, and as a bonus, lets him end his turn outside the opponent's 5'-and-full-attack-the-rogue range.
~ ~ ~
Remember back when the very first time you were ever on the receiving end of a monster's Fly-By or Ride-By, and you raged in frustration that you didn't get AoOs, couldn't full-attack it on your turn, and might not even get a melee attack versus it at all? -- That's essentially what a pesky figh1/rogu4 at 5th level with D/M/SA is enjoying: dishing it out while not taking it.
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I'm sorry, but I don't know the classes you speak of. I only ever had a short look at bard, other than her I read about rogue and druid. I know little about paladin, wizard, but never really got into details of their skills and class bonuses.
I only have looked at a few books, and only partially, looking for what I need to make my rogue. Equipment, spells, things. I haven't even read the way combat works yet, although I have an overall idea. Still the various names of actions elude me. I don't know what's the difference between standard action and atack action, or when can I move and when I cannot. I think I know when attacks of opportunity happen, but I am not trully sure. Although I looked into flanking and what it means.
I would like to pick the feint line and spring atack line at some point. I like the idea of mobility that spring atack gives. And Mobility does sound like Lightning Reflexes, and I love the latter. I like the idea of trickery rogue, so I will pick smoke and blinding bombs, or... That's three rogue talents... So maybe The Whole Time and Occult Dungeoneer and one more instead?
What does it change in wand usage if you treat the spell as in your spell list?
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I would like to pick the feint line and spring attack line at some point.Since you're new at this, I'd stick with the latter, as Mobility is geared to keep you alive. (Memorize the Withdraw action rules, because you'll need them sooner than you think.)
I like the idea of trickery rogue, so I will pick smoke and blinding bombsIMO, your second Talent should be Trap Spotter (it's also a good reason to move that 14 over the Wisdom, put the 12 in CON, and relegate the 10 to INT -- your 9th and 10th skills are less important than a +2 to Perception and will saves).
What does it change in wand usage if you treat the spell as in your spell list?
Casting classes are a PITA for new players, and a Use Magic Device-exploiter (which CHA-emphasizing rogues are) is a good way to dip your toe in and slowly pick up the rules without committing to it full-time. Just keep the skill jacked, and stuff your haversack full of cheap scrolls and eventually wands of very situational spells. (Other PCs will also lend you their patch-'em-up equipment if they know you can trigger it.)
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A small change happened.
Elana will lose Drow Magic and gain Adaptability and Blended View.
Edit: #LoveYourGM
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Ooooo! What Skill Focus are you taking?
(hint:Bluff)
Tho if you feel strongly about it, or have a plan, there's also Acrobatics, Perception or Stealth.
I was thinking of Bluff actually, because it's the easiest way to guarantee a sneak attack. Although Acrobatics do have a lot of checks that might help me in combat.
But I am curious how skill focus works. It says that if i have more than 10 in a skill, it raises to +6. But does it mean that I have to put 7 points in a skill and it will be 13, because the +3 will trigger the raise, or will I need to push it to 10 to get the buff?
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Mhm, thought so. Oh well, I get +2 to Perception from Keen Senses, +1/2 my lvl to finding traps. So I thought it would be bit much for just Perception.
I'm sorry, but I don't know the classes you speak of. I only ever had a short look at bard, other than her I read about rogue and druid. I know little about paladin, wizard, but never really got into details of their skills and class bonuses.
And that's fine.
I linked the two class' entries as-presented on d20pfsrd.com (a site not affiliated with Paizo, but who has the most comprehensive singular collection of rules information, albeit in generic non-Golarion manner), so you can read up on them.
The highlights of my point are:
- both bard and investigator (a newer class) get "free" or "extra" skills in addition to their actual skill points due to class features
- bards have spellcasting and investigators have something similar called alchemy; either way, these can be used to enhance or bypass some skills at times (depending)
- both bards and investigators have abilities that allow them to do other stuff reasonably well, also
Other than that, a class called the alchemist (a bomb-using class with alchemy, like an investigator, only more) and a newer casting class, mesmerist (kind of sort of like an enchantment-focused bard, only different), are powerful skilled classes that can benefit from a high intelligence and often thus can out-skill a rogue. Core classes like ranger or wizard can rival rogues, as can other classes like the witch.
I only have looked at a few books, and only partially, looking for what I need to make my rogue. Equipment, spells, things. I haven't even read the way combat works yet, although I have an overall idea. Still the various names of actions elude me.
All of that is super fair. It makes sense to start this way!
I am of the personal opinion that the Pathfinder Core book needs a nice, solid restructuring to make it more optimal for comprehension, but given how things currently are, you're doing well!
I don't know what's the difference between standard action and atack action,
Don't worry! Neither does the Core rulebook!
(If this statement seems confusing, it's because it's a minor forum joke.)
Really, you don't worry too much about it, right now.
Just know that sometimes the book uses them interchangeably, but they are - vaguely, but importantly - not, technically, the same thing at all. In plain language, an attack action is any action you take that allows you to roll an attack (it's more nuanced, again, you don't need to worry right now). This is mostly academic for you until your levels are high enough to get multiple attacks per round.
or when can I move and when I cannot. I think I know when attacks of opportunity happen, but I am not trully sure. Although I looked into flanking and what it means.
Attacks of opportunity are basically a single, free, extra attack you can make during someone else's turn.
So let's say that an ogre next to you doesn't consider you a threat (that's what you want him to think, as a rogue) and decides to take on that guy what's peppering him with arrows. As he moves away from you, his back is partially turned, and his guard is partially down - this allows you a very brief window to make a minor attack. This attack is a little too hasty to get off stuff like sneak attack - after all, he's still aware you're there and ready to dodge an attack, just mostly ignoring you, and it's a minor opening not a major one - but it's just enough to let you try it.
Or perhaps you're super sneaky, so you manage to slip up next to an evil wizard or cleric while they're distracted with your buddies; or perhaps they're just so confident and arrogant they don't care you're nearby; or perhaps you've successfully cornered them and they feel... fear (as they should!). Regardless, you're right next to them and they... cast a spell! This means that they're putting themselves in a slightly-less-combat-optimal position and actions, allowing you a similarly brief opportunity as above.
In both cases, they are aware of you and are making an effort not to take damage, but they're not in an ideal position to do so, which presents an... opportunity. An opportunity to... attack, as it were.
*
Hence an "attack of opportunity" - it's basically just an opportunity you happen to get to make a melee attack while a foe's guard is either a little (but not fully) lowered or they're taking some action that isn't the best in combat for reasons that make sense to themselves.
Because they are quick one-offs, without a feat you can generally only make one per round.
*
And Mobility does sound like Lightning Reflexes, and I love the latter.
Other things have been answered, but I wanted to comment - these two things sound similar... but they are not. They are not really related well at all (though they are both sort of defensive feats).
Mobility limits the effectiveness of attacks of opportunity made against you (this allows you to hypothetically be more mobile in combat, hence the name), but the Acrobatics skill may give you just as much benefit without a feat investment. The skill won't let you move as far, but it will allow you to do so more safely.
Mobility (click the blue word - it's a hyperlink - to see the feat) gives you a +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity when you move through a threatened area.
So basically when you move away from any square adjacent to any creature, or move away from any square within 10 ft. of a large creature (15 ft. for a huge creature, 20 ft. from a gargantuan creature) you gain a +4 bonus to the AC against the one attack they get against you that turn.
Compare the Acrobatics skill, which allows you to move through the threatened square (at half speed) without provoking at all (if you feel very confident, you can move at full speed, but the difficulty increases by +10, so be cautious).
This is not to say that you shouldn't take mobility - if that's how you want to do your build, go for it. But just be aware of the overlap and limits on what they give you.