Sword and board optimization


Advice


So my GM says that "practically nobody plays sword and board." The problem with this is that, as it is developing, my character is basically going sword and board. Custom sword, base d10 for damage with Finesse and Traditional on it. This might seem cheap, but the character is a kitsune bone oracle, so it's a feat or four FC points for the proficiency either way.

So, since my GM is useless for it, and the only other character in our party that HAS shield proficiency is going TWF, party's out for help, I was hoping for some advice on where to go with gearing him. Armor's covered, moderate (20) dex on a Bones Oracle with Armor of Bones, with an Armored Kilt (My GM ruled that, because Armored Kilts are MEANT to stack on armor, it stacks with the Armor of Bones). I also have a +1 Heavy Steel Shield

The main thing I need is suggestions for enchantments on the shield and kilt. IS going with the full +5 reasonable? Are there enchantments that will do him better than the extra total +8 to AC?

The other thing he needs, and if there's shield, armor, or even weapon enchantments I haven't spotted that will help, is some freaking CMD. He might have a 20 dex, but he's a small character with a 10 Str, so insert clip of Roger from American Dad in the theme park episode. Protection from grapples, trips, etc, would be EXTREMELY helpful.


Side note, my GM already hates the fact that this character hits a 23 AC at level 5, but I'm not against pissing him off. :P


Some options:
Locking gauntlets give you +10 vs disarm
Weapon cords let you retrieve the disarmed weapon as a move action (unless they take the weapon)
Acrobat slippers get you +2 vs being tripped
Improved trip/disarm will get you +2 vs themselves
Stat boosting items to increase your cmd
From the SRD - "A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD." so any of the normal ways to get those too.


OH SNAP! Posalypse, thank YOU. Those are things I needed to know. Many, MANY thanks! Especially the bonuses to CMD from AC boosters.


Having someone cast freedom of movement on you or getting the ring will stop grapples and other things if you're past level 7.


Zarius wrote:

The main thing I need is suggestions for enchantments on the shield and kilt. IS going with the full +5 reasonable? Are there enchantments that will do him better than the extra total +8 to AC?

So you say you have "moderate dex" but having 20 dex and 10 strength means you built a dex based character, it's hard to have much more than 20 dex at level 5.

As for enhancement....you're an oracle. You can cast greater magic weapon and can cast and magic vestment to give you enhancement bonuses, so you don't necessarily need to do the flat enhancement bonuses like most people. That being said, most item enhancements are pretty situational and depend on your overall build.

Shadow Lodge

pocsaclypse wrote:

Some options:

Locking gauntlets give you +10 vs disarm
Weapon cords let you retrieve the disarmed weapon as a move action (unless they take the weapon)
...

A Locked Gauntlet is probably not a good idea for an Oracle, as you are going to have to drop your weapon to cast most spells (even if you don't plan on casting in combat, you might find yourself needing to), or use a wand, or catch yourself from falling off a ledge, or do anything at all that requires a free hand (like scratching your nose).

Thinking about it a little more, I'm starting to wonder how exactly a Heavy Shield + Locked Gauntlet combo would work: I guess you'd have to drop the shield before adding or removing your weapon from the gauntlet???
A Weapon Cord should work decently, and you won't lose as many Iterative attacks as a Full BAB character would.

My own oracle (admittedly, a 'spell and plank' character rather than 'sword and board') restricts herself to a light shield to retain some use of her offhand (typically to use a metamagic rod).


Clax, technically true... but I'm not putting any more points into dex, so the highest that'll ever be is 26 (I'm not counting on my GM having tomes available, he hates them). I actually could have had another two points in my base dex, if I really wanted to, but the whole "spell caster" forced me to allot the better roll to my Charisma. :P

Taja, thanks greatly for that Weapons Cord suggestion, I think I'm going to go with that, that's excellent.

Citricking, that is a nastily expensive ring, but hooooo does that cover one of my biggest weaknesses. Now I just need a way to make myself equally immune to Trip.


Especially since you’re playing a caster you also might want to think about using a light shield to keep your shield hand free for holding objects. That can help you keep a hand free for casting, use metamagic rods, etc. You’ll only lose 1 AC, and in the long term the +6 or more you can get from a fully enchanted light shield should still be a nice AC boost. I had a Paladin 4 / Bard 13 who was set up this way, and his AC was pretty good.

Hopefully you’ll have something like Slashing Grace so you can do some damage. Having played several “sword and board” style PCs now (though not all with actual swords) I’ve noticed that achieving consistent damage output can be a challenge. If you invest in damage buffs like Deliquescent Gloves and maybe a Bane Baldric it can really help keep your damage totals in the respectable range. Power Attack or Piranha Strike could potentially help too, but sometimes just focusing on accuracy and defense can work out pretty well if you have enough damage buffs handy. You also don’t always have to kill foes 100% yourself if you can just stay in their face and contribute a little.

Intimidation can be another good angle for a sword and board combatant to pursue. Figure, you’ve already got high AC, so why not debuff enemy attack rolls and become “unhittable”? Some folks might say that’s boring, but I think wearing strong enemies down can be fun. With a Cruel weapon you can hand out a -4 penalty to attack rolls. That can really change the math of an encounter. With sword and board if you focus on not being hit you can win encounters slowly but surely “by the math”. As a potential self healer you should also have some capability to realign things if bad luck strikes in the form of an enemy crit.

Not everybody will appreciate this style of play, and some DMs might react by just boosting monster attack rolls until the AC bonus you gain from the shield is negated (and potentially everybody else in the party is getting tagged constantly).


Keep in mind even with Weapon Finesse you'll want to make sure you keep your ACP low because this line is always forgotten...

Weapon Finesse wrote:


If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

So that Heavy Steel Shield is actually decreasing your attacks by 2 until its Mithral.


Also, if you want to go Two-Weapon Fighting (for Shield Bashing), a light shield counts as a light weapon (-2 to your attack rolls when two-weapon fighting), whereas a heavy shield counts as a one-handed weapon (-4 to your attack rolls when two-weapon fighting). A light shield also only has an Armor Check Penalty of -1 (except for quick draw versions, which have -2).


Deadly Grace, Devil. Rather than making any one slashing weapon apply Finesse, and add dex to damage, it just adds dex to damage on any finesse weapon. He's using a finesse weapon. That Baldric is a wicked idea though, I'm going to have to look into that.

Hubaris, where do you find that? I ask because, per Paizo's page on armor:

Paizo wrote:


Armor Check Penalty: Any armor heavier than leather, as well as any shield, applies an armor check penalty to all Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks. A character's encumbrance may also incur an armor check penalty.

Shields: If a character is wearing armor and using a shield, both armor check penalties apply.

Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he is not proficient takes the armor's (and/or shield's) armor check penalty on attack rolls as well as on all dexterity- and strength-based ability and skill checks. the penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for shields.

Sleeping in Armor: A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He takes a –2 penalty on strength and dexterity and can't charge or run. sleeping in light armor does not cause fatigue

And Oracles are proficient with all shields except Towers.


since your a caster with both hands full id recommand clawhand shield as it does the somatic part of casting spells so you can cast while using the shield on the off hand and your main weapon in the main hand without dropping one. hack it's so usfull even my arcane casters use it . since it has no armor check panilty or arcane fail %. also i think the bone claws on the shield would fit thematicly to your bone armor ;)

if your not locked into oracle i would advice doing sword and board with a warpriest. you can easly gain a bastard sword prficency from many difrent dieties.its very easy going on stats if you focus on buffing spells and not spells tht call out saves, you can manage with 14-16 wis, the heavy armor mean u can have 12-14 dex and put the rest into str. making it less feat entensive as you can just go to power attack skipping weapon finesse and other needed feats to utilize dex.

you mantioned ac 24 by level 5. my wearpriest tiefling. with river rat trait, following pharasma (with obidience on level 3) and taking armor of the pit at level 1. started with a scale mail,heavy shield +1 dex and armor of the pit =5+1+2+2 =20 ac. by level 5 he had a full plate +1, the clawhand shield and could drop iron skin as a swift action for an ac of 10(+1 full plate) +1 (dex) +4 (shield) +2 (nat armor) +4 (enhacnment to nat armor) +10 (base) = 31 ac (27 without the spell).
and he would attack with a dagger with added bonues +2 to attack from obidience +1 more from free weapon focus +1 to damge from trait, same bab as the oracle but a lot more str for both hit and damage. also sacred weapon to enhance the attack if needed. at level 5 the dagger is a 1d8 weapon (at level 10 would go to 1d10).


Zza ni, I freaking love that shield. That's freaking awesome.


And ironically, we fluffed him as an Oracle of Bones, being ordered by Pharasma to hunt undead, so that shield is just... Mmm. Perfect.


yep. it was voted one of the best items to grab, by my group too. it IS freaking awesome ;)
notice that not needing to make a menuver check to damage when grappled\pinned\swolowed mean auto hit.

Liberty's Edge

Sword and board on a caster should consider the taking Shield Mage if they have the feats available, half the feat only works for arcane casters but the main part for divine is that it allows casting with the shield hand.


2 feats and need bab 3+ i rather pick the claw hand (or craft it for half) and have it way before level 6 wizard. also i NEED my feats

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:
2 feats and need bab 3+ i rather pick the claw hand (or craft it for half) and have it way before level 6 wizard. also i NEED my feats

Yeah it's a bit pricy on the feats, but a good alternative if the other item is unavailable. You might not run into it in a campaign or the crafter might not be good enough to craft it for you.


@Zarius: It's in the Weapon Finesse Feat itself.

Shadow Lodge

Devilkiller wrote:

...

Hopefully you’ll have something like Slashing Grace so you can do some damage.
As a rule of thumb, you can't get 'dex to damage' while using an actual shield. The exceptions I know of are:Using a Buckler instead of a shield (it officially straps to your arm, leaving your hand free) generally gets around this limitation, but you might see some 'table variation' on this (real bucklers do occupy the hand).

OP, using Warpriest instead of Oracle for your 'chassis' has been mentioned and it does seem like a better overall fit, but it sounds like you are going to be very dependent on your 'Armor of Bones' for your AC (both to keep your encumbrance low and to stack a scaling Armor Bonus with the enhancement bonus on your Armored Kilt), so I'm guessing that option is off-the-table.


Jesper, Oracles are divine casters. I already suffer absolutely no arcane spell failure.

Hubaris, that... is something we all missed. I'll have to remedy that situation.

Taja, Deadly Agility (sorry, I misnamed it earlier) from Path of War. Either that or the +1 equivalent enchantment, not sure which yet.

Shadow Lodge

Zarius wrote:

...

Taja, Deadly Agility (sorry, I misnamed it earlier) from Path of War. Either that or the +1 equivalent enchantment, not sure which yet.

Ah, that's a 3rd Party Publication (Path of War, © 2014, Dreamscarred Press.), which explains why it goes against Pazio's policy on 'Dex to Damage'. Personally, I'd stick with the 'official' version when two abilities that do the same thing are offered, but that's up to your GM.

I should comment at this point that you already stated your GM is annoyed with your character already: You might be in for a lot of pain once he realizes that reversing a couple of his rulings could cut you down significantly:

  • Disallowing the Kilt stacking with your Armor of Bones will nerf your AC a bit, forcing you to either abandon the Kilt or wear actual armor (and the enhancement bonus on the kilt would not stack with the enhancement bonus on your actual armor). Honestly, the kilt is often disallowed in general as armor 'add-ons' are a nice idea that the system just doesn't handle very well.
  • Disallowing the third party feat will either nerf your damage or force you to go with a buckler instead (okay, a buckler really wouldn't hurt your AC much).
  • Oh, and your sword is a 'custom' weapon (you mention a 1d10 damage and that you are a Kitsune, but then you mention you are small sized: Are you using Reduce Person somehow?) that seems to go 'above and beyond' every other weapon offered (Sounds like a finesse-able Bastard Sword)
Basically, a significant amount of this character is based on the GM's whim, and whims can change...


Dot


Taja, my GM isn't going to do that. To start with, he feels that once a decision HAS been made, he's obligated to stick to it, period. Second, one of our other character's build basically relies on it, I worked with the GM to create that particular weapon (my back up character is a smith). He wouldn't cripple someone else just to spite me. Third, the kilt isn't what he sees as breaking it right now. It's the fact that, in just a hair over a level (I expect us to hit 6 in the next session or two), I get six AC, with an armor that has no weight, no dex cap, and no ACP. Him letting me have the kilt actually limits me more than helps, in his opinion. :P

To answer the part about size, we modified the 'Child' oracle's curse. Since he already has to have custom armor (not a problem, he's wearing Dragonhide for his kilt), we said f- it and went whole hog. For all intents and purposes, he's a small-sized character.


(Oh, let's not forget the fact that at 19, he gets a 12 just from his Armor of Bones, still no weight, cap, or ACP)


Sword & Board fighter: Cythraul Dig.

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