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Petition to allow a refund in light of a recent FAQ


Roleplaying Guild General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge *

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Core Rule FAQ wrote:

Magic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?

No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
posted Fri, May 12, 2017

In light of this recent FAQ and the impact it has to archers, I offer this petition for the ability to get a full refund on enhancement costs for people who enhanced ranged weapons higher than +1. As of May 12th, the gold used to increase the ranged weapon above +1 is wasted because it no longer allows the arrows to overcome DR.

*

10 people marked this as a favorite.

Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?

The Exchange ***

Wow that is a big change. That FAQ seems like it is nerfing archery just for the sake of it. A higher enhancement bonus use to mean less book-keeping for all those random arrows..

I think a refund is warranted as well.

Quote:
Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?

No but it stopped working the way the book describes it and the way the game was played since 2009 core rulebook.

Liberty's Edge *

GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?

It still applies to the attack and damage but no longer applies to Damage Reduction expect for DR: Magic.

****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Eh, special materials for arrows are cheap enough that I've never bothered with straight up upping the +1 to a +3. 2 gp for 20 pieces of cold iron is pocket change if you can afford a +2 weapon. Adamantine is pricey, but I doubt you'll reach a +4 weapon in your PFS career. Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.

In short: errata might suck, but I don't think it impacts things enough that you need a refund. And as Tyrant Princess said, they still give a +1 on to-hit/damage, so it's not exactly "wasted," just not relevant for its intended use anymore.

Sovereign Court ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Gary Bush wrote:
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?
It still applies to the attack and damage but no longer applies to Damage Reduction expect for DR: Magic.

Is DR the only reason to improve the enhancement bonus to your projectile weapon?

Sczarni *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

More reason to take Clustered Shots, I guess.

Sczarni *****

Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.

Expect table variation on that.

Liberty's Edge *

I think a fair number of archers specifically purchased bows with higher levels of enhancements to specifically overcome DR. I know of at least 3 in just my area.

The Exchange ***

Nefreet wrote:
More reason to take Clustered Shots, I guess.

I was trying to not be forced into taking this on my inquisitor and was purchasing a higher bonus to compensate but yeah this is the real solution.

Edit: Speaking of which it be an added bonus to retrain a feat into Clustered Shots for free to fix this problem.

Liberty's Edge *

KingOfAnything wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?
It still applies to the attack and damage but no longer applies to Damage Reduction expect for DR: Magic.
Is DR the only reason to improve the enhancement bonus to your projectile weapon?

For a fair number of players, yes I think that is the specific reason they increased the enchantment.

Liberty's Edge *

The Conserving weapon property may become more common. Hate to lose a magic arrow just because you missed your target.

From PRD on Conserving weapon property wrote:
This ability cannot be placed on firearms. Only projectile weapons can be made conserving. When the wielder misses with a ranged attack, the fired ammunition teleports unharmed to its quiver, case, or pouch. If the ammunition in question would be destroyed for other reasons than merely being launched, such as an arrow that breaks apart in flight, this special ability does not function and the ammunition is destroyed as normal. Effects that block teleportation prevent this special ability from working.

****

Nefreet wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.
Expect table variation on that.

Really? I just see them as variations of the base ammunition. You can buy silver regular arrows, why not silver blunt arrows?

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering aloud.

Sczarni *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.
Expect table variation on that.

Really? I just see them as variations of the base ammunition. You can buy silver regular arrows, why not silver blunt arrows?

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering aloud.

"The alchemical silvering process can't be applied to nonmetal items"

"Arrow, Blunt: These arrows have rounded wooden tips"

Sczarni *****

I personally agree with you. I have a character with Adamantine Blunt Arrows. But not all GMs let me use them.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Why not use an adamantine weapon blanch on your blunt arrows?

Sczarni *****

Hardness.

****

Gary Bush wrote:

I think a fair number of archers specifically purchased bows with higher levels of enhancements to specifically overcome DR. I know of at least 3 in just my area.

My archer just hit level 10 and I'm considering upping his +1 to a +2. Getting a +3 weapon isn't impossible, but you'd get it really lategame, like somewhere in level 11, unless you spend everything on your bow and neglect your other items. And a +3 only penetrates cold iron/silver, for adamantine you need a +4, which is tremendously expensive for PFS standards, unless you're playing post-level 12. In that case, it sucks, but I also think it's kinda a waste of money. Buying regular cold iron stuff would've been cheaper and you could've spent that money on other stuff. Unless you're also going for that extra +1 to-hit and damage, of course.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:
Hardness.

You don't carry regular adamantine arrows for that?

****

Nefreet wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.
Expect table variation on that.

Really? I just see them as variations of the base ammunition. You can buy silver regular arrows, why not silver blunt arrows?

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering aloud.

"The alchemical silvering process can't be applied to nonmetal items"

"Arrow, Blunt: These arrows have rounded wooden tips"

Huh, thanks. I looked it up before posting that to see if I'd missed something, but apparently d20pfsrd doesn't use that language. Nethys does. That might invalidate some of my purchases. Luckily, I haven't used my silver blunt arrows yet, and it's rare enough I can go without it, I guess.

** Venture-Agent aka Chess Pwn

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Gary Bush wrote:
I think a fair number of archers specifically purchased bows with higher levels of enhancements to specifically overcome DR. I know of at least 3 in just my area.

I know a player that talks about how his zen archer had to save for so long to get his +5 bow to overcome alignment DR, So yeah, for some people it's all about overcoming DR.

****

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Gary Bush wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Gary Bush wrote:
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Did the enhancement bonus from +2 and higher bows stop adding to attack and damage while I wasn't looking?
It still applies to the attack and damage but no longer applies to Damage Reduction expect for DR: Magic.
Is DR the only reason to improve the enhancement bonus to your projectile weapon?
For a fair number of players, yes I think that is the specific reason they increased the enchantment.

This is exactly the reason I went to +2 on my occultist archer, who would Legacy for +1 Bane in order to get to an effective +5. I would have stayed at +1 and obtained a named property instead had this been FAQ'd this way earlier.

Sczarni *****

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Hardness.
You don't carry regular adamantine arrows for that?

I bought Adamantine Blunt not knowing about the controversy.

The Exchange ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Does anyone know if there is a thread associated with this FAQ? It adds needless complication of the rules which deviate from an 8 year old book for the sake of continuing "The Great Nerfening".

****

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Ragoz wrote:
Does anyone know if there is a thread associated with this FAQ? It adds needless complication of the rules which deviate from an 8 year old book for the sake of continuing "The Great Nerfening".

Pretty sure it was this one.

Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

4 people marked this as a favorite.

So the FAQ "clarified" something that "had been that way all along", except that almost nobody was aware of how it had been all along, and people bought high-enhancement bows not knowing that they wouldn't do what they were hoping what they would do.

So people bought something in good faith, that was effectively changed by the FAQ (to the thing that it was "all along"). I think that's a reasonable cause for refunding.

Shadow Lodge ****

6 people marked this as a favorite.

*pawprint*

Let them get the refund if they want. No one read the rules that way. Not that hit and damage are bad by any means, but if you're not getting through DR there's probably something better.

Paizo Employee ***** Developer

22 people marked this as a favorite.

John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.

If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.

The Exchange ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Linda Zayas-Palmer wrote:

John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.

If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.

While I do appreciate how quickly the team came to a decision I feel there is a disconnect between the solution and the problem. These magical bonuses aren't going to help characters fix their issues with DR. We need the gold back to purchase items. There is also going to be retraining costs if people need the feat which we might be stuck with either way.

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Agent, Maryland—Hagerstown aka Z...D...

I am biased because my archer build is currently going through eyes of the ten is affected by this FAQ. That nerf just cost me 24000 gp.

Edit: Thanks Linda, that might ease the sting.

Sovereign Court *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Linda Zayas-Palmer wrote:

John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.

If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.

Excellent. Thank you for the rapid response! ^_^

Liberty's Edge *

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thanks for the quick response but Rogaz raises a good point.

Can consideration be given for a refund?


Lau Bannenberg wrote:

So the FAQ "clarified" something that "had been that way all along", except that almost nobody was aware of how it had been all along, and people bought high-enhancement bows not knowing that they wouldn't do what they were hoping what they would do.

So people bought something in good faith, that was effectively changed by the FAQ (to the thing that it was "all along"). I think that's a reasonable cause for refunding.

It's Flurry = TWF all over again.

Liberty's Edge *

I am surprised how long it has taken to get this clarified.

****

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Why not use an adamantine weapon blanch on your blunt arrows?

Doesn't applying a blanch get the thing you are blanching hot enough for a wooded arrow to catch fire?

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Show me a rule for that.

****

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Show me a rule for that.

When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round, they melt and form a temporary coating on the weapon. Will a wooden item catch fire when placed over a hot flame for a full round? I know that the hot flame for a full round issue is why I was not allowed to blanch alchemical cartriges but could blanch standard bullets.

Not saying that it will necessarily damage the arrow, but I see the potential for some table variation.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

RealAlchemy wrote:
Will a wooden item catch fire when placed over a hot flame for a full round?

Not according to the rules.

****

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Shadow Lodge ****

wooot thanks

Scarab Sages *****

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
RealAlchemy wrote:
Will a wooden item catch fire when placed over a hot flame for a full round?
Not according to the rules.

Sometimes you don't need a rule to make things happen that make sense. If you put wood in a fire it will burn.

But rules... a small fire does 1d6 damage. At GMs discretion some specific energy types can bypass an items hardness. I'd say fire bypasses wood's hardness. If the damage rolled does enough to dedtroy the arrow, then it burns up.

Shadow Lodge **

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Considering that weapon blanches have rules covering applying them to ammunition, I'm pretty sure the intent is that you can use them on arrows, which are pretty much the most common ammo type.

Beyond that, the description of weapon blanch:

Weapon Blanch wrote:
When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round

Over the fire, not in the fire. Being placed over a fire for a single round is not going to be anywhere near hot enough to burn through an arrow. Ever roast marshmellows over a camp fire? That stick you're using is likely thinner than an arrow, and holding it over a fire for a minute doesn't destroy it.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Tallow wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
RealAlchemy wrote:
Will a wooden item catch fire when placed over a hot flame for a full round?
Not according to the rules.
Sometimes you don't need a rule to make things happen that make sense. If you put wood in a fire it will burn.

You never put it in the fire.

Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Ragoz wrote:
Linda Zayas-Palmer wrote:

John, Tonya, and I have looked at this issue and talked it over.

If you have acquired more than a +1 bonus on your projectile weapon in order to overcome DR, you may perform a one-time exchange of the bonus for ranged weapon special abilities for no cost. For example, if you have purchased a +5 longbow, you can convert it into a +3 holy longbow or a +1 frost holy seeking longbow.

While I do appreciate how quickly the team came to a decision I feel there is a disconnect between the solution and the problem. These magical bonuses aren't going to help characters fix their issues with DR. We need the gold back to purchase items. There is also going to be retraining costs if people need the feat which we might be stuck with either way.

It's a very "on-topic" fix; the team has been hesitant to allow full rebuilds, so this basically comes down to "rebuild just your bow".

Note that you can pick properties (Holy!) that will help against DR, and arrows that penetrate other types of DR are affordable, certainly when compared to higher grade bow enchantments.

Scarab Sages ***** Venture-Agent aka WiseWolfOfYoitsu

I say give it till Monday for the PFS team to deliberate on the subject of refunding the gold. They may allow it, they may not. Even if it's just a bow re-build, its better than a simple +1 to hit/dmg for several of the enhancements.

Scarab Sages

As long as launchers still bestow their full enhancement bonus/other enchantments to otherwise-normal ammunition, I'm okay with requiring the ammunition itself to be specially-made with regards to overcoming material-based DR. Allowing such DR to be overcome through sheer enhancement bonus under any circumstances is, after all, a new mercy.


Nefreet wrote:
Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Silver might be problematic because it takes a -1 on damage, but you can make silver blunt arrows.
Expect table variation on that.

My Ranger put Silver Blanch on her regular arrowheads. That won't impose a -1 damage for exactly the same reason her adamantine-blanched arrowheads won't turn her bow into a seige engine.

*****

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
As long as launchers still bestow their full enhancement bonus/other enchantments to otherwise-normal ammunition, I'm okay with requiring the ammunition itself to be specially-made with regards to overcoming material-based DR. Allowing such DR to be overcome through sheer enhancement bonus under any circumstances is, after all, a new mercy.

It makes alignment DR a significantly more difficult issue, especially in core where clustered shots is not available. You can get round evil DR with a holy enchantment but it is expensive. The rest probably mean carting around scrolls of align weapon and then taking actions for someone to use them mid fight.

Shadow Lodge ****

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

You never put it in the fire.

... is that why my eggs keep getting sunny side crunchy?

Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

andreww wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
As long as launchers still bestow their full enhancement bonus/other enchantments to otherwise-normal ammunition, I'm okay with requiring the ammunition itself to be specially-made with regards to overcoming material-based DR. Allowing such DR to be overcome through sheer enhancement bonus under any circumstances is, after all, a new mercy.
It makes alignment DR a significantly more difficult issue, especially in core where clustered shots is not available. You can get round evil DR with a holy enchantment but it is expensive. The rest probably mean carting around scrolls of align weapon and then taking actions for someone to use them mid fight.

That's true, but Holy solves 90% of your alignment-based DR problems anyway. It's really rare to face other DR, and it's okay for that to be harder for you than normal.

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