One of the newer players in my game wants to play a hammer and board character and wants to knock people back with his shield. Bull rush, or any combat maneuvers, are something my playgroup has only dabbled in a little bit.
Shield Slam and Shield Master feats are definitely something I want to incorporate into this build and both are available from ranger feats so this is the first class I'm suggesting.
Even with these free feats it seems like a feat intensive build. So I was thinking Fighter as the second class.
Any suggestions from here? Archetypes or other recommended classes?
Rangers aren't the only ones who can get ranger combat style feats. Notably, Nature Fang archetype druids can via their slayer talents, and in gestalt I'd want a good will save and solid spellcasting. YMMV.
Spiked Destroyer is another feat they might want. Also while Foehammer has a lot of stuff to do with hammers it loses weapon training with other groups. If the game's likely to run to 9th level+ they might find another archetype better so that they can get weapon training (close) to cover shields. Maybe Lore Warden for the combat maneuver bonus in that case?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For gestalt, I'd probably use a skald with either ranger or slayer. This will get you all good saves and a decent spell list. And at level 3 the skald can get the knockback rage power.
I should have mentioned that he doesn't really want spells. A few are fine, but he is new and an overwhelming spell list isn't ideal.
What feats does he need to get?
How does shield slam work? He attacks/hits then uses the same roll adding his CMB to the d20 or does he use his attack result against the opposing CMD? If he just uses his attack roll does Improved bull rush do anything?
Just make a Dwarf Fighter. If you want an archetype, go with Shielded Fighter (sacrifices weapon and armor training for extra shield stuff that's kinda cool, and you don't really need armor training as a Dwarf, anyway. You can already move full speed in it).
It'll be easy to play and keep track of, they have some nice bonuses for defense (new players need survivability over optimization), and it can do everything you want, plus some extra for the fun of it.
For flavor, let's make his shield his main weapon.
20 point buy
Str 16
Dex 15
Con 15 (13+2racial)
Int 10
Wis 12 (10+2racial)
Cha 8 (10-2racial)
Traits: Heirloom Weapon: Heavy Steel Shield: +2 to combat maneuvers with it
Militant Merchant: Perception as a class skill and +1 to surprise round checks
Gear: Spiked Heavy Steel Shield. Dwarven Maulaxe (versatility). The heaviest medium armor he can afford. Get a bashing enchant on the shield ASAP. Carry a sling or something as a backup ranged weapon, upgrading to an adaptive composite longbow when you can.
Fun fact - at level 1 he can do piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning to bypass whatever DR.
Feats:
1. TWF
1. Improved Shield Bash
2. Power Attack
3. Improved Bull Rush
4. Greater Bull Rush
5. Iron Will - Don't fail will saves
6. Shield Slam
7. Steel Soul - Extra good vs. spells
8. Improved TWF (You'll need a magical item for dex +2 for this, as you want your level bonuses going to CON at 4 and STR the rest of the way)
9. Your choice - Recommend Combat Reflexes if you're getting lots of AOOs
10. Your choice - Recommend Furious Focus if you're Power Attacking a lot
11. Shield Master
12. If you're hurting for damage, maybe Two-Weapon Rend.
Avoid Shield Focus as a feat. You'd get more mileage out of dodge if you want higher AC, but AC isn't exactly going to be your problem.
Other people - feel free to critique this build - just quickly threw it together.
I should have mentioned that he doesn't really want spells. A few are fine, but he is new and an overwhelming spell list isn't ideal.
What feats does he need to get?
How does shield slam work? He attacks/hits then uses the same roll adding his CMB to the d20 or does he use his attack result against the opposing CMD? If he just uses his attack roll does Improved bull rush do anything?
Last first. It looks like you use the attack roll, no modifiers. Improved Bull Rush allows you to bull rush without a shield bash (& gives you the +2 CMB with bull rush then) and it serves as a prerequisite for other feats (e.g. Rhino Charge, Greater Bull Rush), but it does nothing much for the shield slam alone.
I think he could be solid with just Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer and the two-weapon feat chain, plus the usual feats - if he's likely to have a poor will save then Iron Will, Power Attack as with any strength-based melee. It's possible to invest more like Improved & Greater Bull Rush, Rhino Charge if you want. The Upsetting Shield Style line might be good.
In detail, assuming Guide ranger (better than favored enemy IMO) and a default fighter, this is what I might do:
Feats:
1: Improved Shield Bash
1 (bonus): TWF
2 (bonus): Power Attack
2 (combat style): Shield Slam
3: Spiked Destroyer
4 (bonus): Upsetting Shield Style
5: Weapon Focus (buckler/light shield)
(weapon training close weapons +1)
6 (bonus): Improved TWF
6 (combat style): Shield Master
7: Iron Will
8 (bonus): Combat Reflexes
9: Upsetting Strike
(weapon training close weapons +2, hammers +1)
10 (bonus): Weapon Spec. (buckler/light shield)
10 (combat style): Shield Focus
|
I always find it funny that nobody ever knows about the Siegebreaker archetype. It's actually perfect for this idea. Adding Strength mod+ to damage on bull rushes? Plus free overruns with more Strength+ damage? YES PLEASE.
After that, tack on something with more bonus feats to help it stick. I recommend slayer, for the extra skill ranks and sneak attack damage on top of all that.
I always find it funny that nobody ever knows about the Siegebreaker archetype.
Knew it, saw it, decided the feats were more important. Spiked Destroyer potentially adds more damage anyway.
if your player is going to be going this route of shield master he will want to duel wield shields so
20 point buy azata blooded aasimar
str 12
dex 17(15+2 racial)
con 14
int 7(rogue will give you plenty of skill points still)
wis 10
cha 18(16+2 racial)use 2 light steal shield
1.(feat)improved shield bash(class feature)feness training dex to hit
2.(rogue talent)two weapon fighting
3.(feat)power attack(class feature) feness training dex to damage
Problem here - Power Attack requires 13 Str
Dwarf Lore Warden Fighter/Metamorph Alchemist.
Build strength to 25, change into huge giant, take awesome blow feat with a +like 8 from lore warden...profit.
|
I should have mentioned that he doesn't really want spells. A few are fine, but he is new and an overwhelming spell list isn't ideal.
Why play gestalt then?
Having a bunch of fairly rare combat manouvres is actually more difficult to play and get used to than a few spells. A Ranger can have Longstrider, a Paladin can have Grace. They are much simpler than some classes entirely without spells like Brawler.
However, his choice. You need all three good saves in gestalt and Paladin is the only warrior with a good Will save, so take that on one side. That covers Bab, weapons and armour. Lots of other good stuff too and. Make him a Tempered Champion as Lady J says to swap spells for Fighter stuff.
Other side he needs a good Reflex save (he has Fort), which says Slayer or Ranger. They get combat style.
I should have mentioned that he doesn't really want spells. A few are fine, but he is new and an overwhelming spell list isn't ideal.
Is that his feeling or yours? A small spontaneous spell list isn't hard at all. You just need someone to pick your spells known for you.
I second the Foehammer archetype. With the Break Guard feat you can disarm, attack, bull rush, then trip; all as a standard action.
Break Guard (Combat)
You can use one of your two weapons to occupy your opponent's defenses while attacking with the other.Prerequisites: Dex 15, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: While wielding two weapons, whenever you successfully use one weapon to disarm an opponent, you can spend a swift action to attack the opponent you attempted to disarm using your other weapon.
Hammer to the Ground (Ex): At 7th level, when a foehammer succeeds at a bull rush combat maneuver, he can make a trip combat maneuver at the end of the bull rush. If he does not move with the target, the force of his blow may still trip his foe, but he takes a –5 penalty on the combat maneuver check to trip.
At 15th level, any creature a foehammer successfully bull rushes is automatically knocked prone at the end of the bull rush. This ability replaces armor training 2 and 4.
Then add any class you want for flavor.
Why play gestalt then?
The game is a gestalt game. It was set up that way before he had the idea of playing. Not playing with the same advantages of everyone else is handicapping him for no reason. You can always add fighter to any class at the very least.
Is that his feeling or yours? A small spontaneous spell list isn't hard at all.
It's his (possibly other players in the group influencing him). I agree a small spell list, especially if he doesn't start with it, will be good for him. I mentioned this only to counter the druid, bard, or other caster focused suggestions.
Paladin//Ranger or Paladin//Slayer? Full BAB, all good saves, d10 HD, and 6 skill points. Some spells or sneak attack for zest. Bonus feats you don't have to meet the prerequisites for are the icing on the cake.
I like Paladin//Rogue too. Very good saves, Full BAB, d10 HD, 8 skills, full sneak attack, healing, a manageable amount of spells, rogue talents, paladin immunities, evasion and uncanny dodges.
I think one of the keys to gestalt is getting all good saves.
Full BAB and d10 or d12 HD if doing melee; skill points are gravy.
If you are really against going Paladin for the will saves, then maybe sleuth investigator can fulfill your spell free will save needs.
Just out of interest, what sort of character builds did you show the player in the end, Rylar?
One of my current PCs is an 18th level Viking archetype Fighter with Shield Slam. The feat and resulting bull rushes are great, especially when I can slam stuff into a wall and knock it prone. Only various Mythic powers make his style of using TWF with a heavy shield and light hammer impressive in terms of damage output though. Being a Paladin with Oath of Vengeance might give your player's PC a way to help raise his damage. Unchained Rogue might not suck either. I guess Ranger would get your Shield Slam up and working the quickest though. Maybe some mix of those 3 classes could work pretty well.
That Foehammer archetype could probably be pretty cool due to the trip ability. If you're playing with Stamina Pool you can also trip with Shield Slam itself though.
Just out of interest, what sort of character builds did you show the player in the end, Rylar?
Haven't shown him anything yet. Plans for playtime keep getting moved around.
Right now I have 2 level 2 chars prepared a Ranger/Fighter and a Paly/Bloodrager.
Ranger fighter is going down the fighting with a hammer and shield route. At 2 he has Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Slam, and Improved Bull Rush. He will be picking up 2 weapon fighting soon.
The Paly/BR is more about staying alive. While they have the same AC21 (which matches the other high AC character in the group) the lay on hands with Fey Foundling will keep him alive. The only issue I have with this character is I would just run with a 2-handed weapon myself. The extra 2 AC seems pointless to me.
As you reach higher levels that 2 AC from a shield can grow to 7. The difference between being hit on 13-20 and only being hit on a nat 20 could be pretty impressive.
For the Paladin you might want to consider using a light shield or making your second weapon something like a spiked gauntlet or cestus which won't interfere with Lay on Hands. What's the appeal in Bloodrager? If it is just Rage then the Viking archetype Fighter could give you some Rage and Rage Powers along with a bunch of feats and some boosts to the AC you get from using a shield.
As you reach higher levels that 2 AC from a shield can grow to 7. The difference between being hit on 13-20 and only being hit on a nat 20 could be pretty impressive.
A Defending shield can get up another 5. +12 AC ain't nothing to sneeze at.
I prefer having Defending on my other weapon since I want the attack roll with the shield to be as high as possible for Shield Slam. Certainly the ability to take penalties on just your extra attacks from TWF can make Defending more appealing though.
Shield Master (Combat)
Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.
+5 Shield, +5 Defending. Have your cake and eat it too.
@Helpful Harry - I'm not too sure that the +5/+5 Defending Shield should still give you +5 to attack and damage once you sacrifice the +5 for extra AC. The controversy over that could probably be its own rather long thread, but I'd expect a fair number of DMs to raise an objection since it seems against the spirit of the Defending enchantment (sacrifice attack and damage bonus for AC bonus)
@Lady-J - Dodge is probably better than Shield Focus in general. For Mythic PCs the Mythic Shield Focus feat is pretty great though.