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When you do the Warrior Spirit + Training -> AWT shuffle, did you remember to pick one less AWT so that it's actually legal?
Because I'm seeing a lot of juggling here, where the one AWT allowed to a lowish-level Fighter covers every single weakness.
As a matter of fact, I did.
GM's playing genius level intelligence antagonists?But sure, let's say the GM's more likely to specifically try maneuvering against spell component pouches because he has recognized letting casters cast is far more dangerous than letting fighters fight much of the time.I'm just wondering, who does this?
It feels like a very hostile thing to do.Or a moron. This "genius" has placed himself in the middle of the player party in addition to eating some hits to the face when attempting to pass the front-liners. Lets hope he knows how to sunder at least.
Come to think of it, this sounds more like a BFS thing to do.
Why, the mage going to make an AOO and not stop the sunder aimed at his laughable CMD? Rest of the party going to ignore everything else going on in the encounter, including their casters?
Why, the mage going to make an AOO and not stop the sunder aimed at his laughable CMD? Rest of the party going to ignore everything else going on in the encounter, including their casters?GM's playing genius level intelligence antagonists?But sure, let's say the GM's more likely to specifically try maneuvering against spell component pouches because he has recognized letting casters cast is far more dangerous than letting fighters fight much of the time.I'm just wondering, who does this?
It feels like a very hostile thing to do.Or a moron. This "genius" has placed himself in the middle of the player party in addition to eating some hits to the face when attempting to pass the front-liners. Lets hope he knows how to sunder at least.
Come to think of it, this sounds more like a BFS thing to do.
There are feats that shore up that weakness for class without full BAB, since all casters have nothing but free feats they should all take it.
There are feats that shore up that weakness for class without full BAB, since all casters have nothing but free feats they should all take it.Why, the mage going to make an AOO and not stop the sunder aimed at his laughable CMD? Rest of the party going to ignore everything else going on in the encounter, including their casters?GM's playing genius level intelligence antagonists?But sure, let's say the GM's more likely to specifically try maneuvering against spell component pouches because he has recognized letting casters cast is far more dangerous than letting fighters fight much of the time.I'm just wondering, who does this?
It feels like a very hostile thing to do.Or a moron. This "genius" has placed himself in the middle of the player party in addition to eating some hits to the face when attempting to pass the front-liners. Lets hope he knows how to sunder at least.
Come to think of it, this sounds more like a BFS thing to do.
You think you could come up with maybe 5 examples of people having posted their actual played wizards, or optimization builds that spend feats on it?
Edit: I mean, even then that feat only evens out the BAB differential. most casters posted dump strength and have a +2 to +3 to dex. Assuming those dont cancel out its not going to prove much of a speedbump to an equal BAB, + primary stat + weapon focus/training, + whatever enchantment on the weapon, +2-4 for feats specifically for sundering.
Of course you could also just keep your spell component pouch in a pocket and make it unable to be targeted at all...
Of course you could also just keep your spell component pouch in a pocket and make it unable to be targeted at all...
If you wanted to spend your move action retrieving it any time you go to cast a spell with a focus or material component i guess.
If you wanted to spend your move action retrieving it any time you go to cast a spell with a focus or material component i guess.
*sigh* Your position is completely unsupported by the rules.
To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component[b], you must gesture freely with at least one hand. You can't cast a spell of this type while [b]bound, grappling, or with both your hands full or occupied.
To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the spell description, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.
You have your spell component pouch, therefore it is a free action to prepare the spell components. Furthermore, you should note that you can cast spells with material components even if both your hands are full or occupied. To use material components all you need to do is literally have them on you.
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But having a component pouch in a pocket can be ruled as being a stored item, which is a move action to retrieve.
There's also this requirement earlier in the Magic section.
To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.
If you wanted to spend your move action retrieving it any time you go to cast a spell with a focus or material component i guess.*sigh* Your position is completely unsupported by the rules.
To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component[b], you must gesture freely with at least one hand. You can't cast a spell of this type while [b]bound, grappling, or with both your hands full or occupied.
To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the spell description, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.
You have your spell component pouch, therefore it is a free action to prepare the spell components. Furthermore, you should note that you can cast spells with material components even if both your hands are full or occupied. To use material components all you need to do is literally have them on you.
Seems like a pretty big stretch. The fact that preparing them is an action type rather than not an action at all suggests it has to be at hand. Got any kind of FAQ support for "even if stored at the bottom of backpack"?
But having a component pouch in a pocket can be ruled as being a stored item, which is a move action to retrieve.
Irrelevant as you have your spell component pouch and the action to prepare spell component for a spell component pouch you have (not have in hand, or have at your waist, just have) is a free action. Please cite a rule that supports your position
Edit:
There's also this requirement earlier in the Magic section.To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.
What is preventing you from manipulating an item in your pocket? It says nothing about manipulating them at your waist or hand, merely that you must manipulate them which is again a free action as part of casting the spell. Rule citation please? Also note that you can explicitly by the rules cast spells with material components with your hands full or otherwise occupied.
Seems like a pretty big stretch. The fact that preparing them is an action type rather than not an action at all suggests it has to be at hand. Got any kind of FAQ support for "even if stored at the bottom of backpack"?If you wanted to spend your move action retrieving it any time you go to cast a spell with a focus or material component i guess.*sigh* Your position is completely unsupported by the rules.
To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component[b], you must gesture freely with at least one hand. You can't cast a spell of this type while [b]bound, grappling, or with both your hands full or occupied.
To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the spell description, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.
You have your spell component pouch, therefore it is a free action to prepare the spell components. Furthermore, you should note that you can cast spells with material components even if both your hands are full or occupied. To use material components all you need to do is literally have them on you.
Be at hand? Nothing suggests that at all. The only thing the rules suggest is that you must own a spell component pouch, you must be able to manipulate it, and that you can cast spells with material components even while both your hands are occupied (but not spells with Somatic Components).
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It looks like Anzyr is technically correct as written (unless there is a rules clarification somewhere), though I suspect his interpretation wasn't intended and wouldn't survive dev clarification, otherwise we have to get stupidly specific as to what "have" means.
The best kind of correct!I was going to say that, but in this case I think it's a dumb interpretation, so I didn't.
Personally, in my games I would rule a spell component pouch in a pocket is a stored item and would need to be retrieved before being used.
Even if you rule the spell component pouch to be a stored item, all that is required by the rules is that it can be manipulated and the action to do so is explicitly a free action as part of casting the spell. Please explain to me why you feel it is easier to manipulate something on your waist versus something in your pocket. Again not retrieve. Manipulate.
Even if you rule the spell component pouch to be a stored item, all that is required by the rules is that it can be manipulated and the action to do so is explicitly a free action as part of casting the spell. Please explain to me why you feel it is easier to manipulate something on your waist versus something in your pocket. Again not retrieve. Manipulate.The best kind of correct!I was going to say that, but in this case I think it's a dumb interpretation, so I didn't.
Personally, in my games I would rule a spell component pouch in a pocket is a stored item and would need to be retrieved before being used.
Take 10 keys off a keyring, put them in a pouch in your pocket, jangle it around as though you've been moving around for a while. Now pick out a specific key while saying your ABC's within 6 seconds. Do the same when you can open the pouch and glance inside then reask that question.
Take 10 keys off a keyring, put them in a pouch in your pocket, jangle it around as though you've been moving around for a while. Now pick out a specific key while saying your ABC's within 6 seconds. Do the same when you can open the pouch and glance inside then reask that question.Even if you rule the spell component pouch to be a stored item, all that is required by the rules is that it can be manipulated and the action to do so is explicitly a free action as part of casting the spell. Please explain to me why you feel it is easier to manipulate something on your waist versus something in your pocket. Again not retrieve. Manipulate.The best kind of correct!I was going to say that, but in this case I think it's a dumb interpretation, so I didn't.
Personally, in my games I would rule a spell component pouch in a pocket is a stored item and would need to be retrieved before being used.
It is I can assure you even easier than doing so when the same keyring is at my waist.
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hmm turns out spell casting in real life doesn't make sense...
Take 10 keys off a keyring, put them in a pouch in your pocket, jangle it around as though you've been moving around for a while. Now pick out a specific key while saying your ABC's within 6 seconds. Do the same when you can open the pouch and glance inside then reask that question.Even if you rule the spell component pouch to be a stored item, all that is required by the rules is that it can be manipulated and the action to do so is explicitly a free action as part of casting the spell. Please explain to me why you feel it is easier to manipulate something on your waist versus something in your pocket. Again not retrieve. Manipulate.The best kind of correct!I was going to say that, but in this case I think it's a dumb interpretation, so I didn't.
Personally, in my games I would rule a spell component pouch in a pocket is a stored item and would need to be retrieved before being used.
this assumes that you have to retrieve a component from the pouch at all, and cannot be cast from the bag itself.
if we're being overly pedantic and requiring that i need to retrieve said Item, I'd like to know why I can't pick up said items from the sundered remains.
because it's not allowed in the rules? well isn't this a weird pickle we're in.
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Please explain to me why you feel it is easier to manipulate something on your waist versus something in your pocket. Again not retrieve. Manipulate.
*sigh* Really? Ok...
Getting into a belt pouch requires sliding your hand into a fixed container. Getting into a pouch in your pocket requires sliding your hand into a fixed container, then opening another container that can shift around inside of it. It is inherently a more complex action. If it weren't it wouldn't be a move action to retrieve anything you carry in a pocket, and it is.
Again, RAW backs you up (as far as I know), but in my game I'm ruling that you can't manipulate an item if you haven't retrieved it. Period. Done. Sorry if that makes like infinitesimally more difficult for the most powerful classes in the game.
And, even if I did decide to let it go, I would rule that a pocket that was accessible enough to stick your hand into as a free action is as exposed as a belt pouch would be to a sunder or other adverse event.
Now that I'm thinking about it, it would be more fair to have retrieving spell components always be a move action. I mean, the fighter can't move and make a full attack, don't see why it makes more sense for a wizard to be able to move and then cast meteor swarm unless she retrieved the components before hand. Hmm...food for thought.
he has a point^
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thread to generate faqs
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Old FAQ thread for whether manipulating material components requires a free hand.I don't see an FAQ Answer on that page... was it answered at all?
it was not. he's asking you to FAQ it. even though this is one of those things that don't like to FAQ. they WANT it to be pretty nebulous.
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So what's wrong with the fighter, to answer the OP?
After thirteen pages of discussion, the topic has mutated into casters get too much for too little, and how to shut them down vs. the fact that fighters get not nearly enough for too much.
Accurate synopsis in a vacuum?
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but yeah, that seems accurate if you're only dealing with combat options.
Like I said, a fighter will never take down a nation-state, but a wizard could do it relatively easily.
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I always felt that many Martials have a lack of options.
If I'm playing a druid I can infiltrate anything once I get Wildshape. If I'm an Arcane caster I can use Invisibility to pass unnoticed. Sure I can also buff my Stealth ally so he can do it as well, that's a bonus, he probably has more Stealth than me, but he's on a timer, because I won't be there to cast the spell again.
If I'm a Divine caster, depending on class, I usually can become really good at Combat, some sort of Blaster, or buff allies as I pleased.
If I'm a Fighter, well, I can move and hit things. And if I have to move I hit worst.
Out of combat I can't do much. I have to take Perception. Then I'm left with 1 skill point.
If I need to swim, climb or fly I'm gonna have to use Potions, which get expensive after a while. Yes my caster friend could cast those spells on me. Then I start to think: is it better for my caster friend to buff me so I don't drown or I'm not useless or could my caster friend just cast something that will nullify the encounter or at least make it 50% easier?
My caster friend gets Mirror Image, saving lots of HP. He also gets false HP. Each time I get hit (and my AC isn't usually off the charts unless I really invest into it) I will need healing.
No, I don't posses any way to heal myself. If it weren't for magic cast by my caster friends it would take me a lot to be full hp.
So, yeah, mainly those are the reasons I don't like fighters. And I think they suck.
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So what's wrong with the fighter, to answer the OP?After thirteen pages of discussion, the topic has mutated into casters get too much for too little, and how to shut them down vs. the fact that fighters get not nearly enough for too much.
Accurate synopsis in a vacuum?
Kiiiiiinda?
I don't actually mind what casters get. I'd like Martians to be better, too, though.
[this post made sometime after the original; I found it sitting here on the Pune...]
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haha, it's funny because suck works as in bad and sucks as in pulls away resources, which is part of why you're saying they are bad. ;)
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Generic access to healing for any martial that wants it with feats, it's something.
Okay, so... Wisdom 13 minimum, Must have Believer's Boon, Must be Lawful Good, treated as Lay on Hands 1/day...
So... at that point why not just dip Paladin or even go straight paladin?
Doesn't do nearly enough, imo?
Generic access to healing for any martial that wants it with feats, it's something.Okay, so... Wisdom 13 minimum, Must have Believer's Boon, Must be Lawful Good, treated as Lay on Hands 1/day...
So... at that point why not just dip Paladin or even go straight paladin?
Doesn't do nearly enough, imo?
Fighters should get free healing, like short rest in 5e to replenish their HP a number of times per day, scaling up to something similar to casters.
This way:a- casters don't have to waste all of their spells or endless wands to replenish fighter's hp
b- fighters are not the reason why adventuring day ends, but casters are with their limited resources
c- fighters should be able to recover hp the most compared to other martial classes. Why? Other classes get other features that might make them less likely to be hit, they have spells, class features to heal themselves or rage powers.
I think a new economy system is needed. The Unchained economy system is extremely interesting, and I think it would be good if it's somehow enforced.
Thing is it will require a lot of changing in spells and classes.
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Well, I feel I must scour armor enhancements for healing effects.
Research forthcoming.
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Generic access to healing for any martial that wants it with feats, it's something.Okay, so... Wisdom 13 minimum, Must have Believer's Boon, Must be Lawful Good, treated as Lay on Hands 1/day...
So... at that point why not just dip Paladin or even go straight paladin?
Doesn't do nearly enough, imo?
Worse than lay on hands. You count as half paladin. Your level 8 fighter heals like a level 4 paladin, which is 2d6 hp.
Congrats fighter, for the measly cost of your character idea & 2 feats, you can heal on average the amount of hitpoints you gain per level once per day. An option existing doesn't make it viable or reasonable. I mean, you can treat deadly wounds if you take the heal skill, but I'm not seeing anyone exclaiming how effective that ability is to keep the fighter up and running.
I feel like one issue is that feats do not scale with level, but spells do. If casters were built like martials, shocking grasp would do 1d6 damage as a level 1 spell. You want more damage? That's what level 2+ spells are for (not D&D 5e does this). So, make spells not scale with level, and force wizards to use their higher level slots for the things they'll need, or make feats scale. I like the second option because it further strengthens character diversity.
[Fighters should get free healing, like short rest in 5e to replenish their HP a number of times per day, scaling up to something similar to casters.
I don't actually agree, similar to how I don't agree that fighters should get strong will saves. However, I also ascribe by spheres of power, which makes healing magic much more accessible to a party. But in the context of the fighter, let them have DR earlier. Let them have better AC naturally (rework the AC system). Maybe make evasion a feat that can be taken. Hell, make the healing skill actually do its job if someone takes ranks in it. Now you don't need some "warrior spirit sustinance" power for the fighter. Let the monks play with their "inner strength."
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This is all just theory crafting after all its a team game and maybe it exists but it doesn't matter. bill nye and rule 0 <there you go>
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So, to de-derail the M/C disparity thread: My thoughts are that the fighter has 3 main problems.
1) Fighters have little narrative power. This has been discussed to death.
2) Fighters are boring at fighting. They can only really do one thing in combat, and more importantly can only fight at one speed.
Consider: If you spec for TWF, its hard to also be a bowman. Also, since fighters have no per-day abilities, they can't make interesting decisions about when to burn hotter or to save resources.
3) Fighters have no flavor. This is sort of an extension of the other two but I think it bears mentioning. The fighter is not about anything, so its hard to give him non-boring abilities. Compare to the barbarian. You could come up with lots of cool things he could do by saying "I'm so angry that ____." The fighter just gets boring flat bonuses.
And before a certain marshmallow mentions the stamina pool, let me respond :p
Stamina is a good attempt, but it does not go very far. The pool is small and refills very slowly, but you need to spend 5 or so points to get anything. So stamina works out to a few extra numbers a few times per day. Nice, but still boring.