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Last time one of my characters saw him, he was being beaten to death in a puddle of his own vomit by a Pathfinder who seemed to have some form of personal grudge against him. Nothing to do with me, I just threw the Ghast retch flask at him.
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Last time one of my characters saw him, he was being beaten to death in a puddle of his own vomit by a Pathfinder who seemed to have some form of personal grudge against him. Nothing to do with me, I just threw the Ghast retch flask at him.
Torchbot. Any time you defeat him it's a torchbot.
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Last time one of my characters saw him, he was being beaten to death in a puddle of his own vomit by a Pathfinder who seemed to have some form of personal grudge against him. Nothing to do with me, I just threw the Ghast retch flask at him.Torchbot. Any time you defeat him it's a torchbot.
A shame. The gentleman delivering the pummelling seemed to be finding it incredibly cathartic.
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I heard* he cut a deal with a coven of hags for perpetual mindblank services to keep Seeker Pathfinders from scry-and-frying him. In the meantime, he's been sitting in an Aroden's spellbane vs. sending in order to get some respite from all the harassment call sendings that were coming his way.
*and by heard, I mean I totally made this up.
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I heard* he cut a deal with a coven of hags for perpetual mindblank services to keep Seeker Pathfinders from scry-and-frying him. In the meantime, he's been sitting in an Aroden's spellbane vs. sending in order to get some respite from all the harassment call sendings that were coming his way.
*and by heard, I mean I totally made this up.
It actually wasn't a coven of hags.
There are enough of us in the shadows to cover for him...
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One of my seekers had to actively avoid any scenarios that included contact with him for his last 4-5 levels, after an incident that made him vow Torch would die if he ever showed his face again. I really didn't want to have to report that character as dead, but couldn't come up with any way he would ever see Torch and not attack on sight.
Out of game, I personally despise the character. I will be happy never to encounter him again.
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I'm going to avoid spoilers for specific scenarios, but he definitely does not come off well through his appearances over the years, in my opinion. He has a history of using Pathfinder agents to his own ends. While his backstory somewhat justifies a longstanding hatred of the Society leadership, his actions have frequently been harmful to the low-level agents he supposedly championed.
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I'm going to avoid spoilers for specific scenarios, but he definitely does not come off well through his appearances over the years, in my opinion. He has a history of using Pathfinder agents to his own ends. While his backstory somewhat justifies a longstanding hatred of the Society leadership, his actions have frequently been harmful to the low-level agents he supposedly championed.and often beneficial. In fact, I would go so far as to say, in my experience playing most everything, he was the among the most helpful of Faction Leaders...
Indeed. Consistently he's been an NPC willing to provide valuable information that helps field agents navigate dangerous situations. Sure he's greedy, manipulative and deceitful but I have to say while there may be situations where one of my characters may have felt used by him I can't say they ever felt that he intended harm towards them (granted I have not yet played that one infamous scenario).
Honestly, I respect Torch for having the tenacity to out maneuver the Ten. He may not be the most upright of NPCs but all things considered the Society deserves someone like Torch.
So this Torch guy would fit well with the Scorpion Clan from L5R? That's at least the impression I'm getting from the back-and-forth.
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While I agree that the union (reformed Shadow Lodge) was a good development for the rank and file, Torch always had a hidden agenda and put my characters in bad situations far more often than Sheila Heidmarch (whose tarnished reputation I don't get).
Shelia is more or less the anti-Torch. While there may not be much agenda behind her actions there are a number of scenarios where she sends agents out with little to no information and in many of these cases being aware of what the characters would be facing would go a long way to mitigating the deadliness of the mission.
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In Seasons 0-2, Torch was the most helpful of quest-givers, while actual venture captains were unhelpful boors that insulted you for trying to drag more information out of them. Seasons 3-4 had a mix of indifferent VCs, and then in 5 onward we actually have friendly faces and effort expended to assist the PCs. Torch hasn't changed much, save for the fairly pointless heel turn in Rivalry's End. Maybe when he shows up again he'll actually earn the enmity of the PCs.
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While I agree that Torch's briefings were better than most, the problems I have are usually with his hidden agendas, which may not have become known to many of the PCs who worked with/for him. Here are the issues that I can recall off the top of my head. Spoilers follow.
The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch -
Delirium's Tangle -
Rivalry's End -
Destiny of the Sands I and III -
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Has anyone ever seen him and Nyarlathotep in the same room at the same time?
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Pete's experience matches mine. It was the last item in his list that earned him my one character's hatred.
But on the other side of the coin, I myself have never felt the dislike for Sheila Heidmarch that so many other people talk about, so it clearly does come down to what scenarios you play, and possibly in what order; plus, how the GM portrays them and their actions will be a huge factor as well.
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sigh... ok, let's take a look at these.
- At this time Torch doesn't work for or with the Pathfinder Society. In fact, most of his experience with them has been when PCs show up at his home (while he is "in a bath") and demand he provide them with information (what he sells to make a living) for free. You know, "Cause we're Pathfinders!" (0-01 Silent Tide.) Behind the scenes Torch is using the PFS, as he would anyone who comes along. Much like the PFS agents do. Really burns when someone uses our own tactics on us.
Again - At this time Torch doesn't work for or with the Pathfinder Society. Well, except for that "Hay, you need to give us this for FREE 'cause we're PATHFINDERS!" bit we keep pulling on him. Yeah, another chance for the "little guy" to screw the big company. GM Torch - Independent Information Broker. PFS - "Information? Hay - it's our's."
SO - "know you can't just walk away from the Organization - it's not like you can just retire...". How the heck did the 10 get him to work for them anyway? I figure he was being blackmailed in some way, and once he got enough on the 10 to quit he did. And what's the last thing he says to the Agents?
"Thanks."
and the Shadow Lodge
"And especially to you, who enabled me to get away from the 10."
and he disappears (while many PCs try to kill him, 'cause, you know, "this isn't an organization you can just quit. We're not going to let you just walk away."
What other Faction lead has actually said "Thanks"?
After leaving the PFS, and running away to the edge of the world (well, really far from the "City at the Center of the World" anyway), while trying to put his business back together - who shows up? You guessed it. PFS agents. And what do they want? Why, free information again. Yeah, like that's going to happen. "Wait, if he wont give it to you free, remind him of XXX. He'll cough it up then." Yeah - blackmail him again...Seemed to work, sort of. Great organization we work for right?
I do notice there is no scenarios mentioned between years 1 and end of year 4 - during the time GM Torch actually worked as part of the PFS and you know, appeared in every scenario on the Faction Mission sheets if not in the scenario. You know, the Faction Missions that said things like "Be careful, this is dangerous".
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** spoiler omitted **
So I guess we could say that GM Torch learned his business model from the PFS, but then he became "damaged goods" so they pitched him out, and left him for dead. Only he didn't die. So the PFS showed back up in his life when he had something they could use... "You know, you can't just quit the Organization...".
Yeah, I guess that works.
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The butler that took out Aroden in the green room with the candlestick.. assumed torchy's form and framed him (at least once over past few seasons) Torch is now hunting down the elusive butler.Is the butler a one armed man?
I dont have my copy of vigilantes and villians yet (Im sure it has another name) But that sounds like him (the butler) yes.
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There is also #2-26 Mantis Prey. This scenario has Grandmaster torch in it as well.
I think
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My name is Grand Master Torch.
I used to be a Society agent until.....
"You got a burnt condition and didn't clear it."
(Whistles)
When you're burnt you've got nothing.
No cash, no credit, no job history.
You're stuck in whatever city they decide to dump you in.
"Where am I?"
....
"Absalom".
You do whatever work comes your way.
You rely on anyone who's still talking to you.
(Laughs).
A trigger happy bodyguard.
"Can I shoot them?"
An old friend who used to inform on you to the Decemvirate.
"You know agents, bunch of whiny little elves."
Venture Captains too.
"Hey, is that Farabellus again?"
If you're desperate.
"Someone needs your help Torch."
And some down and out agents you met along the way.
"That's how we do it, people".
Bottom line as long as you're burnt you're not going anywhere.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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While I agree that the union (reformed Shadow Lodge) was a good development for the rank and file, Torch always had a hidden agenda and put my characters in bad situations far more often than Sheila Heidmarch (whose tarnished reputation I don't get).When did torch put people in a bad situation?
Every season 2 scenario where you deal with the Shadow Lodge? I still don't get why people defend him after his organization starts rampaging and murdering people.
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Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Central Region
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My experiences with Torch actually line up fairly well with nosig/Katisha's, which is ironic given that Pete was my GM for a couple of the listed scenarios. Each one makes an effort to tell the PCs that Torch is a shady individual at best, and he is always looking to turn a situation to his favor (even when he's the one needing the Pathfinders). So none of my characters were all that surprised or chagrined when what we needed from him came with a price.
Now that I've played Mantis' Prey, I'm fairly certain Torch's stint as a faction head wasn't even really by choice, but penance he was doing for the Decemvirate until he could weasel out of it. That he managed to sway a lot of Pathfinders to his message was just icing on the cake for him.
Every season 2 scenario where you deal with the Shadow Lodge? I still don't get why people defend him after his organization starts rampaging and murdering people.While I agree that the union (reformed Shadow Lodge) was a good development for the rank and file, Torch always had a hidden agenda and put my characters in bad situations far more often than Sheila Heidmarch (whose tarnished reputation I don't get).When did torch put people in a bad situation?
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I've always found Torch to be a very interesting NPC. As a player, I appreciate the complexity and deeply-played Game of Houses of the character. My primary 'character with a connection to Torch' was essentially a hitperson who worked for him part time before his stint as a Society faction leader, came in at his request to be a 'trusted wetworks agent', and stayed as a mole when the Shadow Lodge disbanded.
As for the reputation of Ms. Heidmarch, it is best shown in the Season 4 special, where she shows just how blatantly she is willing to break laws to get her way (not to say the Society NEVER does or asks such things, but she's obvious about it). There is also a theory floating around, which I personally half-believe, that she was/is a secret worshipper of Lissala and was actually working towards the goals the Society was then attempting to stop. (Might not be canon at all from Paizo's point of view, but if you go back and read all her Season 4 mission briefs, you can see where the potential is there for that point of view.)
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The poor reputation of Sheila Heidmarch is twofold.
1. Her first introduction was during Race for the Runcarved key, where she explicitly told the party to blackmail/bribe/steal in order to get the macguffin, a macguffin which (iirc, it's been years since I read it) has little use to the Society as a whole, and is mostly just a way to bring her lodge to prominence. Then, she says the party won't have the backing of the Society if they're captured. She outright orders the PCs to place themselves to break any moral codes they may have, and place themselves at greater than normal risk, all for her own personal gain. That's to say nothing of the second part of the special, where if you die, you're permanently lost. Those lives were, again, lost solely to satisfy her own greed.
2. She's responsible for sending parties on some of the most dangerous missions in all of PFS, and rarely gives them mission critical information. While, this is largely a by product of the PvGM nature of Season 4, it's still a valid in-character reason to be upset.
By the end of Season 4, up until the present, she's been presented more favorably. Promoting her to merely incompetent, rather than incompetent and possibly malicious.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Thankfully, the scenario makes no mention of him lying, so until they retcon it we can safely accept it as truth.
That doesn't help anything. He's presented as this grand mastermind and this know it all who in turn is so inept that it just kind of aggravates me. Also, say what you want about Sheila Heidmarch but Torch is up there in deadly scenarios. It may not come up because you can dimplomance your way out of it but sweet jesus the worst combination of TPK worthy spells comes up in one of his favors.
(not to say the Society NEVER does or asks such things, but she's obvious about it)
Ehhh... I respect that more than the whole tiptoe around the whole your going overtly break the law aspect of a lot of scenarios.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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That doesn't help anything.To you. I am more than happy to accept "The Spider is to blame for the murder and mayhem" as canon.
Yeah.... I said he's an inept arrogant jerk whose mayhem and murder extends beyond The Spider. Its not even intentional mayhem and murder. Its just inept mayhem and murder.