Do Drow count as Elves or a Elf for archetype qualifications?


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Could a Drow Oracle take the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd say so.


I would say it depends on how you interpret the prerequisite. If it is "elf" as in the race, then no. If it is "elf" as in the subtype, then yes. Depending on the GM, I would reasonably expect either answer.


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I take a subtype as pretty much definitive. Drow are elves. They have the subtype to prove it. I would be taken aback if a GM ruled otherwise.


I'm of the same mind as quibblemuch as a Race/Culture I would say no, if Elf is ot be seen a a subtype of Humanoid than yes.

However the Surface Drow might be allowed as an Elf Race too:
Return of the Drow - Dominion: Darkwood Enfold
the Myrcane: Forest-Dwelling Drow


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It is my opinion that racial requirements require that you have that specific race, not just that subtype.

As an example of this, look at the drow specific archetypes. If the requirement is that you have the subtype 'drow', the drow can't take them, because they have the subtype 'elf'. So at least for the drow racial archetypes, it is clearly the specific race that they are referring to.

I don't see any reason to justify that 'Drow' in the archetypes for 'Drow' is any different than 'Elf' in the archetypes for 'Elf' so the specific race (or an ability that lets you count as it) is required to take the archetype.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It appears that we have a one way application here (all Drow count as Elves, but most Elves do not count as Drow). Still, even though a Drow may technically be able to meet the prerequisites of the Lantern Bearer prestige class, it would be very weird if a Drow were actually able to enter that class.


David knott 242 wrote:
It appears that we have a one way application here (all Drow count as Elves, but most Elves do not count as Drow).

Not necessarily. It could be that there are two words with the same spelling and pronunciation: "elf." In one case, "elf" refers to a race. In another case, it refers to a subtype.

We know that subtype is not race because of the variety of different races that fall under the single type/subtype combination of outsider (native).

This message brought to you by Language. Language: Obfuscating meaning since at least 10,000 BCE.


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Amusingly enough:

Ancient Lorekeeper archetype ability wrote:
Whenever she makes a Knowledge check of any kind about a question regarding elves (creatures of the elf subtype),

Apparently an elf is a creature with the elf subtype as far as it is concerned.

The games definition of "elf" allows drow to take the archetype, if you want to choose to house rule otherwise, obviously feel free. But you should be willing to defend your arbitrary decision with more than "because".


Dave Justus' rationale is pretty solid by my book.
One specific ability specifying what it means in a parenthesis does not become universal paradigm.
As he stated, that cannot function as a general paradigm as shown by Drow archetypes.
Trying to claim precedent for general paradigm, when that expressly is not a 'general' paradigm, seems dubious.


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The counter here is that we do have a FAQ for half-elves that says that they can take elf archetypes, so while the rationale is solid in its absence, there is more evidence than just the Lorekeeper's ability that elves for the purposes of archetypes at least *can* be creatures of the elf subtype. It would be strange if a half-drow, half-human could take elf archetypes but not full drow, no?


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ARG wrote:

Humanoid races have few or no supernatural or spell-like abilities, but most can speak and have well-developed societies. Humanoids are usually Small or Medium, unless they have the giant subtype, in which case they are Large. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype to match its race, such as human, giant, goblinoid, reptilian, or tengu. If you are making a new humanoid race, you should either find an existing subtype to match or make a new one by using the name of the race as the subtype. If you are making a half-breed race, it should have the racial type of both parent races. For example, a half-elf has both the human and the elf subtypes. Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. A humanoid race has the following features.

--------

Elf: Drow are humanoids with the elf subtype.

Basically, any time you see "Prerequisite: Elf", replace that with "Prerequisite: Humanoid w/ Elf subtype" But, honestly, I think the system would benefit a lot from having a distinction between biological prerequisites based on type/subtype and social/cultural prerequisites based on having experienced and lived in the society. Fantasy stories abound with people having been raised by some race other than their own and sharing their culture. In the case of Elves and Drow, particularly, Drow are still Elves in the sense that they are extremely in tune with their environment, with magic in general, and have keen senses. So Elf racial elements that revolve around those principals should be a perfect fit for a Drow. But Elf racial elements that revolve around being part of the normal, tree-hugging Elven cultural should not be automatically available to Drow; but could be made available to a character of any race that has successfully integrated into Elven society.


Kazaan wrote:
ARG wrote:

Humanoid races have few or no supernatural or spell-like abilities, but most can speak and have well-developed societies. Humanoids are usually Small or Medium, unless they have the giant subtype, in which case they are Large. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype to match its race, such as human, giant, goblinoid, reptilian, or tengu. If you are making a new humanoid race, you should either find an existing subtype to match or make a new one by using the name of the race as the subtype. If you are making a half-breed race, it should have the racial type of both parent races. For example, a half-elf has both the human and the elf subtypes. Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. A humanoid race has the following features.

--------

Elf: Drow are humanoids with the elf subtype.

Basically, any time you see "Prerequisite: Elf", replace that with "Prerequisite: Humanoid w/ Elf subtype" But, honestly, I think the system would benefit a lot from having a distinction between biological prerequisites based on type/subtype and social/cultural prerequisites based on having experienced and lived in the society. Fantasy stories abound with people having been raised by some race other than their own and sharing their culture. In the case of Elves and Drow, particularly, Drow are still Elves in the sense that they are extremely in tune with their environment, with magic in general, and have keen senses. So Elf racial elements that revolve around those principals should be a perfect fit for a Drow. But Elf racial elements that revolve around being part of the normal, tree-hugging Elven cultural should not be automatically available to Drow; but could be made available to a character of any race that has successfully integrated into Elven society.

This very much sounds like my understanding of it as well.


Half-elf and drow are both described as having the 'elf subtype', so no matter how the GM decides, both should be treated equally. Yes, some content for elves doesn't really fit to drow (or half-elves), but this is somewhat subjective, easily leading to frustrated players.

Side note: Half-elf has a lot of unique choices, drow has only 7 FCBs and 2 archetypes (not counting alternate racial traits or regular traits), according to d20PFSRD.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

All drow are elves. Not all elves are drow.


Kazaan wrote:


Basically, any time you see "Prerequisite: Elf", replace that with "Prerequisite: Humanoid w/ Elf subtype" But, honestly, I think the system would benefit a lot from having a distinction between biological prerequisites based on type/subtype and social/cultural prerequisites based on having experienced and lived in the society. Fantasy stories abound with people having been raised by some race other than their own and sharing their culture. In the case of Elves and Drow, particularly, Drow are still Elves in the sense that they are extremely in tune with their environment, with magic in general, and have keen senses. So Elf racial elements that revolve around those principals should be a perfect fit for a Drow. But Elf racial elements that revolve around being part of the normal, tree-hugging Elven cultural should not be automatically available to Drow; but could be made available to a character of any race that has successfully integrated into Elven society.

As a GM that`s pretty much how I would look at it. Biology VS Culture.

If it is Biology base, I would allow it as Drow have the Elf subtype. If it`s Culture base, probably not as Drow and Surface elves have very distinct culture.


Andre Roy wrote:
Kazaan wrote:


Basically, any time you see "Prerequisite: Elf", replace that with "Prerequisite: Humanoid w/ Elf subtype" But, honestly, I think the system would benefit a lot from having a distinction between biological prerequisites based on type/subtype and social/cultural prerequisites based on having experienced and lived in the society. Fantasy stories abound with people having been raised by some race other than their own and sharing their culture. In the case of Elves and Drow, particularly, Drow are still Elves in the sense that they are extremely in tune with their environment, with magic in general, and have keen senses. So Elf racial elements that revolve around those principals should be a perfect fit for a Drow. But Elf racial elements that revolve around being part of the normal, tree-hugging Elven cultural should not be automatically available to Drow; but could be made available to a character of any race that has successfully integrated into Elven society.

As a GM that`s pretty much how I would look at it. Biology VS Culture.

If it is Biology base, I would allow it as Drow have the Elf subtype. If it`s Culture base, probably not as Drow and Surface elves have very distinct culture.

If it were culture based there would be more to the prerequisites. They have done that with the whole traits thing as well as other items in the game. Limits by where they were raised etc.

They didn't, they used Elf, which means any creature with the Elf subtype.


As pointed out in a similar thread, Drow are listed as humanoid (elf) in the bestiary. So I'd say they do count as elves for the purpose of the archetype.

Hope it helps.


Quandary wrote:

Dave Justus' rationale is pretty solid by my book.

One specific ability specifying what it means in a parenthesis does not become universal paradigm.
As he stated, that cannot function as a general paradigm as shown by Drow archetypes.
Trying to claim precedent for general paradigm, when that expressly is not a 'general' paradigm, seems dubious.

Only if you ignore that it is in fact the general paradigm?

As written out in the rules and further reinforced by a rather long standing FAQ, it does in fact work the way I and others have stated. It isn't just one statement, it is part of the subtype system as well. It just happens that it was restated in the archetype which is why I found it amusing enough to point out.

Nothing about the drow archetype makes this impossible or breaks the "paradigm". One archetype has a more strict requirement, you need to be a specific type of elf (a drow). This prohibits all elves from being able to take it. Another archetype requires you to be an elf (which include any and all creatures with the elf subtype) and so a drow can take it (having the elf subtype).


The ARG text, which I wasn't aware of, is definitive. If a race is also a subtype, you only have to have that subtype, not that race for any racial restrictions.

Personally, I think this is a bad design. I think there should be archetypes and feats that only refer to the specific elven race, rather than only all humaniods with the elf subtype, but right now it would be impossible to make such a thing, at least with the standard language.


Dave Justus wrote:

The ARG text, which I wasn't aware of, is definitive. If a race is also a subtype, you only have to have that subtype, not that race for any racial restrictions.

Personally, I think this is a bad design. I think there should be archetypes and feats that only refer to the specific elven race, rather than only all humaniods with the elf subtype, but right now it would be impossible to make such a thing, at least with the standard language.

Actually it would simply require a special requirement that states this prestige class/feat/whatever is not available to drow/half-elves/or humans with that one feat.


So, in light of the rule about racial subtypes, a Sorcerer with the Orc Bloodline can take Orc feats, archetypes and maybe FCB? (The Arcana grants the Orc subtype)


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Entryhazard wrote:
So, in light of the rule about racial subtypes, a Sorcerer with the Orc Bloodline can take Orc feats? (The Arcana grants the Orc subtype)

Yep.

However, as best I can tell, having the human and elf sub-types is not sufficient to qualify as a half-elf, nor is having the human and orc sub-types sufficient to qualify as an elf. If they were, there would be no need for the Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) or Racial Heritage (Half-Orc) feats -- Racial Heritage (Elf) and Racial Heritage (Orc), respectively, would cover those cases.


So y could be a half elf, with the racial heritage (dwarf) feat, and the Orc bloodline as a sorcere and you have the following :
Humanoid (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Orc)
Hmm... I wonder if there's anyway to add more,...


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Dave Justus wrote:

The ARG text, which I wasn't aware of, is definitive. If a race is also a subtype, you only have to have that subtype, not that race for any racial restrictions.

Personally, I think this is a bad design. I think there should be archetypes and feats that only refer to the specific elven race, rather than only all humaniods with the elf subtype, but right now it would be impossible to make such a thing, at least with the standard language.

Doing this would require significantly more word count and be prohibitive. There are several variations of races especially elves, and so you would have to go through and name them all as "allowed" which then in turn means you have to FAQ or Errata any new variations for all past items that have the restriction. This would actually be a horrible design, it makes work long after implemented.

They did it the "smart" way and it is actually "good design" despite your objection. All they need to do to make an item "restricted" is make that item specific to what they want (like they did with the drow archetype). If they want something specifically for wood elves, they can punch in "wood elf" as the prerequisite and "Viola!" It works how they wanted it to, only creatures who are born wood elves can take it.

Simple, effective (aka elegant design).


Blindmage wrote:

So y could be a half elf, with the racial heritage (dwarf) feat, and the Orc bloodline as a sorcere and you have the following :

Humanoid (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Orc)
Hmm... I wonder if there's anyway to add more,...

I find it hard to do searches on my phone, but I seem to recall some old threads on that very topic.


Well, looking through some PDFs and searching for 'subtype' at classes and archetypes nets me:

Aquatic: Aquatic druid 9 (permanent), skinshaper (druid) 8 (temporary), mutation mind (psychic) 11 (temporary), deep one corruption 7
Cold: Sorcerer with boreal bloodline 20 (permanent)
Earth: Student of stone (monk) 20 (permanent, needs oread though)
Elemental: Oracle with life mystery 1 (temporary)
Incorporeal: Sorcerer with undead bloodline 15 / dreamspun bloodline 20 (both temporary), spiritualist 18 (temporary)
Shapeshifter: Shapeshifter (ranger) 3 (temporary), sorcerer with serpentine bloodline 20 (at will)
Mythic: Depends on your GM / the campaign

There is more, for example the item Tarnhelm also gives you the shapeshifter subtype. Further a monk 20 turns into an outsider - not sure about native or retaining subtype here, though. Aasimar is more clear, it can become both an outsider (native) and humanoid (human).

Dark Archive

Blindmage wrote:

So y could be a half elf, with the racial heritage (dwarf) feat, and the Orc bloodline as a sorcere and you have the following :

Humanoid (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Orc)
Hmm... I wonder if there's anyway to add more,...

Take the right alternate class features and feats, you can add drow.


I allow drow to access archetypes and favored class options from the half-elf list because, being human (race) but having elvish (subtype) traits, I think that it is logical to assume that they have the same potential. I do not, however, let them access that of the elves unless it serves a purpose. One of my players, for example, chose the elf-raised racial subtype that was available to half-elves while playing a drow. I allowed it because his backstory revolves around his adoptive family (of elves) basically hating him in a very Hunchback of Notre Dame inspired fashion. I felt that since it serviced the story and had little to do with monopolizing on racial abilities to create an unbalanced character, I figured I would allow it. The only thing I recommend is that you are aware of the character they are building so that they aren't just trying to pull a fast one on you.

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