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Hi everyone,
just for an idea on what might be possible...
what'd be the nastiest spell combination to make with metamagic added to them?
Like say:
A magic missile with the toppling spell metamagic feat to hit multiple creatures and have a great chance of knocking them prone with just a +1 on spell level. (the trip attempt is not based on the spell DC but on caster level + casting statistic modifier!)
or a cone of cold with the rime metamagic feat.
Post your most debilitating, deadliest combo's here please.
Cheers
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8th level spell,
Extended persistent spell
Target must make 12 saves, if they fail ONE, they are unconscious at 0 HP. If they fail TWO, they are at -1 and dying. If they fail THREE, they're dead. While mass suffocation is more powerful, you can use it more often, and even spontaneously with preferred spell. You can lower it a bit, extended suffocation requires six saves and is level six, while persistent suffocation is level seven and also requires six saves.
Nice suggestion. Anyone else want to take a shot at it?
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Dazing Scirocco's (level 9) DC isn't the greatest, until you realise that every minion in its 20-foot radius has to save every round while in there- or be dazed for six rounds straight.
And if you're dazed, that means you can't escape, and have to start saving against the effect refreshing again...
Of course, this is more of a parlour trick for a 9th-level slot, but a welcome addition for you sadists out there.
Dazing Scirocco's (level 9) DC isn't the greatest, until you realise that every minion in its 20-foot radius has to save every round while in there- or be dazed for six rounds straight.
And if you're dazed, that means you can't escape, and have to start saving against the effect refreshing again...
Of course, this is more of a parlour trick for a 9th-level slot, but a welcome addition for you sadists out there.
Dazing black tentacles or dazing wall of fire are pretty good for this too.
I personally really like dazing fire shield. Some fool attacks me and not only gets burned, but loses his full attack right along with his next 5 rounds. The fact that it protects me against cold or fire attacks as well is just icing on the cake.
I recently discovered Eclipsed Spell from Blood of Shadows. Seems like it would be really cool.
Eclipsed daylight only uses up a 3rd-level spell slot, but grants you a mobile 60-foot emanation that lowers the light level by 2 steps, and another 60-feet by 1 step, and it lasts for tens of minutes. When fighting enemies who can't see in the dark, it can be positively crippling.
Eclipsed lunar veil is also a great way to brighten up a large area (a 120-foot radius).
Eclipsed continual flame lets you have a permanent darkness effect in torch form. Add heighten spell to it to overcome higher level light effects. Heck, add heighten spell to a traditional continual flame in order to never have to worry about darkness effects again.
Have a familiar, get burning gaze + dazing spell & share spells it with the familiar. Actually there are a lot of poor/situational spells which become impressive with dazing spell. Acid arrow for example.
Just about any damaging cold spell is improved by adding rime spell. Frostbite, frost fall etc.; rime cone of cold comes on line too late for me.
Persistent glitterdust. No, you may not recover from the blindness with a lucky roll.
Re stopping full attacks; spell storing armor or the spite spell and something like frigid touch or burning disarm are pretty good too.
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Extend Spell on Deja Vu is a no save effect that forces the target to repeat its next action for the following three rounds. That's pretty amazing for a 2nd level slot.
I recently discovered Eclipsed Spell from Blood of Shadows. Seems like it would be really cool.Eclipsed daylight only uses up a 3rd-level spell slot, but grants you a mobile 60-foot emanation that lowers the light level by 2 steps, and another 60-feet by 1 step, and it lasts for tens of minutes. When fighting enemies who can't see in the dark, it can be positively crippling.
Eclipsed lunar veil is also a great way to brighten up a large area (a 120-foot radius).
Eclipsed continual flame lets you have a permanent darkness effect in torch form. Add heighten spell to it to overcome higher level light effects. Heck, add heighten spell to a traditional continual flame in order to never have to worry about darkness effects again.
Shadow Grasp, although it has absurd prerequisites, combos very well with lunar veil or an Eclipsed light spell. Huge entanglement radius is possible, which stacks with the darkness penalty for a total 1/4 speed penalty multiplier.
It combos very well indeed with Hungry Darkness or (on a rod) Polar Midnight so they can't easily escape.
Shadow Grasp, although it has absurd prerequisites, combos very well with lunar veil or an Eclipsed light spell. Huge entanglement radius is possible, which stacks with the darkness penalty for a total 1/4 speed penalty multiplier.
It combos very well indeed with Hungry Darkness or (on a rod) Polar Midnight so they can't easily escape.
Rime spell would be better. Entanglement would be automatic while shadow grasp allows a save. For the polar midnight that is.
Rime Chill Metal. Entangles and probably kills everything that fails the save (and isn't resistant
Dazing heat/chill metal. Like above, but much stronger.
Persistent Rainbow Pattern (+ awesome display revelation). Pick up everyone in a village and send them away for a bit. (Not a combat spell).
Dazing aggressive thundercloud. Smack a bunch of people with this for the 2 round daze while melee mops up.
Extended Murderous Command. 1/2 the fight is now between your enemies.
Selective Detonate. Select yourself. (or merciful if that isn't valid, so that its easier to heal).
Quickened Obscuring Mist to help cover your escape.
Dazing Gozreh's Trident. Will save or daze, a little damage, and all of the style points.
Maximized, empowered and intensified mythic fireball - why go for penalizing the opposition, when you can burn them down in one go? :)
The Seeking Contagious Flame is a good one :-) Thanks.
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For Spell Storing Armor I like to Load in Rime Figid Touch. Staggered AND Entangled. Serves them right for swinging on you. Spellstoring also gives you better action economy and more spells per day.
I am a Fan of Snowball and Flurry of Snowballs with Rime. 3k a lesser rod of Rime is plenty if you want to save feats. Makes a Druid very strong.
I am a Fan of Dazing Spell on may of the Mentioned Spells. Wall of Fire, Black Tentacles, Fire Ball, Sirocco, A. Orb, Flaming Sphere/A. Thunder cloud. Dazing works on many spells and turns many lower level spells into Viable control mid game (Levels 7-13).
Persistent is fun on Spells like Dominate, A. Orb, Glitterdust. Just about any spell that the effect Ends on a Passed save is great for this meta magic. Magic Jar is one I have personally abused to hell and gone with Persistent spell. To the point a DM just killed off my character where he stood after I forced 2 Bosses to kill each other with it.
Toppling is fun Pre Level 7 but after it tends to fall behind unless your main Enemies stay as 2 legged and medium in size and shape.
Heighten gets a a small nudge here as it can turn a spell like Continual Flame or Daylight into the ultimate light source beating back even deeper darkness. It breaths more life into some spells by increasing the DC. It can also be paired with Persistent to make a really hard to pass spell. Its better on Spontaneous casters than prepared casters IMHO but both can benefit.
Echoing Spell is great on a lesser Rod. Spells Like Greater magic weapon, Magic Vestment, Heroism, Keen Edge can be passed around a group with much more easy and frees up your caster's List. I always Pitch a group to buy one as a group.
Extend Rod is amazing as I tend to cast Spells like GMW and Magic Vestment the night before with Extend...rest 8 hours and get my spells back leaving me with a full list of spells for adventuring.
Intensified is mandatory on Blasters to get the most out of thier blasts.
Empowered>Maximized. The Math is out there that proves Empowered to be superior to Maxamize. But together they are AWESOME.
Piercing Spell- This is for desperate people who do not know about Dweamer's Esscense and refuse to pick up a spell that ignores SR.
Empowered>Maximized. The Math is out there that proves Empowered to be superior to Maxamize. But together they are AWESOME.
I've heard this a number of times in recent memory, but unless you are stacking on static modifiers to your dice, which only a handful of very specific builds are even capable of, I'm just not seeing how this is generally a true statement.
It's really easy.
Empower increases your (random) damage 50% for +2.
Maximize increased your damage between the (random) average and the maximum for +3. So we want 75% increase to be equal.
The average for a Fireball is 35, Maximize is 60, so 25 average extra damage. 25/35 is a gain of 71.4%, so we aren't getting a fair return on that extra spell level. What you are getting is some certainty, and maybe that's worth more to you. But if you want to get the most efficient spell levels to damage conversion over time you want Empower.
Edit: There's also the issue that with good rolls Empower can do more damage than Maximize ever can at a cheaper cost. If you use this website and set it for 10d6 and "at least" you'll see that there's a 20.5% chance you'll roll at least a 40. That means one out of five Empowered spells you equal or better Maximize and save a spell level doing it.
Well with spell perfection you could drop a maximised, intensified, empowered, dazing fireball as a 9th level spell dealing 90+7d6 damage and 3 rounds of daze on a failed reflex save, then you follow it up with either a quickened maximised intensified empowered fireball if they failed the save or a quickened dazing empowered intensified fireball if they made the save.
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Well with spell perfection you could drop a maximised, intensified, empowered, dazing fireball as a 9th level spell dealing 90+7d6 damage and 3 rounds of daze on a failed reflex save, then you follow it up with either a quickened maximised intensified empowered fireball if they failed the save or a quickened dazing empowered intensified fireball if they made the save.
Well the first spell uses a 12th level spell slot and the second uses a 13th level spell slot.
A caster level 20 example:
A intensified, empowered, maximized Battering Blast deals (28d6x1,5 + maximized) 252 force dm. No save. And uses a 9th level spell slot. No need for maximizing spell dc via stats or feats.
As comparison A maximized Disintergrate deals 240 dm. And only 5d6 on a succesful fort. Save. So you need to invest a lot to maximizing spell dc.
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Dazing Ball Lightning remains a favorite of mine. Not only can you force up to 5 creatures to make a save or be dazed, you can force all 2-5 saves on one creature. And it comes with a built in -4 to the Reflex Save or be dazed if the target is wearing metal armor. And it last for rounds per level! Daze lock all the things. Daze lock everything!
Haha, that's awesome Anzyr.
Shadow Grasp, although it has absurd prerequisites, combos very well with lunar veil or an Eclipsed light spell. Huge entanglement radius is possible, which stacks with the darkness penalty for a total 1/4 speed penalty multiplier.
No no no no, you don't realize the terrifying thing here. Umbral Eclipsed Continual Flame on a Miner's Lantern. Now you have effectively a 30 ft. cone of darkness and entanglement forever that faces whatever direction you are looking, and can be disabled by simply closing it.
For another fun combo use Elemental Spell (which coincidentally will also make the damage lethal cold damage) on an Aqueous Orb to give the Cold descriptor, then tack on Rime Spell. Now they are entangled until you decide to let them go because each round the cold damage is re-applied which refreshes the Rime Spell entanglement with no save. The only possible saving grace would be a GM ruling that saving against the Orb itself would allow them to escape, but they would still be heavily restricted meaning you could easily snap them back up.
I dunno, i feel like reducing light level in an area is probably considered "affecting" an area. :P
The only reason i added Umbral Spell was for the darkness descriptor so that it qualified to activate Shadow Grasp (Which i just realized is a SEPERATE metamagic that ALSO needs to be added) >_>
If umbral didn't work on spells like that, would it work at all? Pretty much all light/darkness spells function like that.
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Problem with ball lightning is that its countered on elevtric resistance, affected by SR, and is a lv 4 spell so it doesn't work on lesser rods of dazing. Generally I like using lv 3 spells (aqueous orb, fireball) for dazing. Aqueous orb does nothing to things immune to non lethal, can't hit flying though.
Shadow Grasp, although it has absurd prerequisites, combos very well with lunar veil or an Eclipsed light spell. Huge entanglement radius is possible, which stacks with the darkness penalty for a total 1/4 speed penalty multiplier.No no no no, you don't realize the terrifying thing here. Umbral Eclipsed Continual Flame on a Miner's Lantern. Now you have effectively a 30 ft. cone of darkness and entanglement forever that faces whatever direction you are looking, and can be disabled by simply closing it.
For another fun combo use Elemental Spell (which coincidentally will also make the damage lethal cold damage) on an Aqueous Orb to give the Cold descriptor, then tack on Rime Spell. Now they are entangled until you decide to let them go because each round the cold damage is re-applied which refreshes the Rime Spell entanglement with no save. The only possible saving grace would be a GM ruling that saving against the Orb itself would allow them to escape, but they would still be heavily restricted meaning you could easily snap them back up.
Could you use Arcane Mark instead. With spell perfection (arcane mark) and a trait or 2 you could have a 0 level darkness spell...
Well with spell perfection you could drop a maximised, intensified, empowered, dazing fireball as a 9th level spell dealing 90+7d6 damage and 3 rounds of daze on a failed reflex save, then you follow it up with either a quickened maximised intensified empowered fireball if they failed the save or a quickened dazing empowered intensified fireball if they made the save.Well the first spell uses a 12th level spell slot and the second uses a 13th level spell slot.
9th level slot is enough: Intensify +1, empower +2, daze +3 = +6, spell perfection lets you add any one metamagic for free. If you have the two metamagic cost lowering traits you can use this from 7th level slot.
A caster level 20 example:
A intensified, empowered, maximized Battering Blast deals (28d6x1,5 + maximized) 252 force dm. No save. And uses a 9th level spell slot. No need for maximizing spell dc via stats or feats.
As comparison A maximized Disintergrate deals 240 dm. And only 5d6 on a succesful fort. Save. So you need to invest a lot to maximizing spell dc.
Wouldn't the damage be higher? At CL 20 you have 4 blasts. With intensify each would deal 10d6, empower them and each would do 15d6, maximise would make it (60+5d6)*4 = 240+20d6. Take a level of orc blood sorcerer and make it 300+20d6, evocation wizard can tack another +9 to the damage via intense spells. Hmm, this seems absurdly strong, someone please tell me there is a mistake in my calculations. It is a touch attack to hit, but by level 20 those would be easy to make against most enemies. Even better is that you can crit with touch attacks.
I think Intensify will only get 7d6 per blast.
Spell does 1d6 per 2 caster levels, max 5d6 normally. Intensify adds a max of 5 more levels worth, so 2 and a half d6 rounded down to 2d6.
Unless I've misinterpreted it?
About Ball lightning...
as casting it takes 1 standard action... and moving the globes takes a move action... could you strike multiple targets with them on the round of casting?
What I mean is, given the spell range is medium and the spell doesn't state the globes originate from you as the caster.
Can you cast the spell as a standard action and then you make the globes manifest anywhere within range on spots where creatures are already standing? (forcing them the reflex save or take damage) ; and then use your move action to move them 20 feet around and strike nearby allies/monsters?
Or even strike the same creature twice? ; once on the standard action, then the globes get to move 20 feet, so... 5 feet to the side, and 5 feet back again, target gets zapped again?
Would this be possible and a legitimate use of the spell? (at the expense of not moving that turn as the caster of course)
RaizielDragon>> Right... makes sense :-) thanks for clearing that up.
Right, but you used Maximize, too, for another +3 which gets you to 12th. Spell Perfection lets you use one for free, but it doesn't let you exceed 9th level before the free reduction.9th level slot is enough: Intensify +1, empower +2, daze +3 = +6, spell perfection lets you add any one metamagic for free. If you have the two metamagic cost lowering traits you can use this from 7th level slot.Well with spell perfection you could drop a maximised, intensified, empowered, dazing fireball as a 9th level spell dealing 90+7d6 damage and 3 rounds of daze on a failed reflex save, then you follow it up with either a quickened maximised intensified empowered fireball if they failed the save or a quickened dazing empowered intensified fireball if they made the save.Well the first spell uses a 12th level spell slot and the second uses a 13th level spell slot.
Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.
Spell Perfection lets you cast a 5th level Quickened spell with a 5th level slot, but it never lets you cast a 6th level perfected spell with Quickened, because the total modified level of the spell would be 10th before your discount.
This line is here (1) to prevent this sort of higher than 9th level abuse and (2) to allow 4th and 6th level casters to benefit from Spell Perfection if they want to, allowing them a 9th level effective cap rather than their usual 4th or 6th.
Right, but you used Maximize, too, for another +3 which gets you to 12th. Spell Perfection lets you use one for free, but it doesn't let you exceed 9th level before the free reduction.9th level slot is enough: Intensify +1, empower +2, daze +3 = +6, spell perfection lets you add any one metamagic for free. If you have the two metamagic cost lowering traits you can use this from 7th level slot.Well with spell perfection you could drop a maximised, intensified, empowered, dazing fireball as a 9th level spell dealing 90+7d6 damage and 3 rounds of daze on a failed reflex save, then you follow it up with either a quickened maximised intensified empowered fireball if they failed the save or a quickened dazing empowered intensified fireball if they made the save.Well the first spell uses a 12th level spell slot and the second uses a 13th level spell slot.
Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.
Spell Perfection lets you cast a 5th level Quickened spell with a 5th level slot, but it never lets you cast a 6th level perfected spell with Quickened, because the total modified level of the spell would be 10th before your discount.
This line is here (1) to prevent this sort of higher than 9th level abuse and (2) to allow 4th and 6th level casters to benefit from Spell Perfection if they want to, allowing them a 9th level effective cap rather than their usual 4th or 6th.
Fireball 3rd level,
intensified +1empowered +2
dazing +3
maximised +3
quickened +4
spell perfection lets us ignore one of these
so maximised intensified empowered dazing fireball is 3+1+2+3+3=12, we ignore one of those +3s to get a 9th level spell
we swap a +3 for a +4 then ignore it to quicken, and the total modified spell level is 9, not above.
Some metamagic rule states you can't lower the level of the spell below its initial level.
Arcane Mark + Umbral Spell would act kinda like a 10 foot Darkness spell. So couldn't you use Spell Perfection and/or a couple traits to take Umbral Arcane Mark back to level 0?
maybe use Traits and Spell Perfection to make it a level 0 Entangling Darkness (using Umbral Shadow Grasping Arcane Mark)! Don't forget it could be cast with spellstrike!
Fireball 3rd level,
intensified +1
empowered +2
dazing +3
maximised +3
quickened +4
spell perfection lets us ignore one of these
so maximised intensified empowered dazing fireball is 3+1+2+3+3=12, we ignore one of those +3s to get a 9th level spell
we swap a +3 for a +4 then ignore it to quicken, and the total modified spell level is 9, not above.
You're not getting it. You ignore one of those only for the purposes of what spell level you actually expend or memorize. But before your metamagic savings (edit: from Spell Perfection, not traits) the adjusted level of the spell can't exceed 9th level. So you never actually can expend a 9th level slot with Spell Perfection if you're getting a free metamagic, at best you get a 9th level spell effect and you spend a lesser slot.
This thread does a pretty good job of arguing both sides and showing why the 9th level cap works before you apply your free metamagic from Spell Perfection.
@Gilarius: You raise a good point and I agree, it should be 7d6.
Thanks RaizielDragon for doing the math :) Damage is still quite respectable but not that far out anymore. Though it IS force damage which is quite handy and is resisted by practically nothing.
Average damage for those three combos is 216 for the vanilla wizard, 258 for the orc bloodline sorc and 352 for the sorc with wizard VMC.
@412294 I believe Plausible Pseudonym is correct because the feat description talks about the total modified level, ie. what the level would be after you modify it with Spell Perfection.
@Plausible Pseudonym What do mean with metamagic savings? The free feat from Spell Perfection or the -2 from the traits?
I mean the free Spell Perfection metamagic feat you can apply. You add up everything, it can't be higher than 9th, then you take off the Spell Perfection free feat and pay that reduced cost.
The trait savings are separate and applied before Spell Perfection, I'd say.
I mean the free Spell Perfection metamagic feat you can apply. You add up everything, it can't be higher than 9th, then you take off the Spell Perfection free feat and pay that reduced cost.
The trait savings are separate and applied before Spell Perfection, I'd say.
Yes, I agree.
This is why I like incense of meditation so much on Druids. Just abuse your free maximise and then stack Dazing/Intensified/Empower
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Well lets try to make Battering Blast a bit more deadly (but a one pony trick):
Orc bloodline Sorcerer level 20
Feats:
Spell focus evocation (prerequisite)
Mage's tattoo (+1 caster level)
Spell specialization (+ 2 caster level)
Bloodmage initiate (+1 caster level)
Empower Spell metamagic
Intensified Spell metamagic
Maximize Spell metamagic
Spell Perfection (1 free metamagic & double feat bonuses)
Traits:
Magical Lineage (lower metamagic cost 1 level)
Wayang Spellhunter (lower metamagic cost 1 level)
Magic Items:
Flawed Orange Prism (+ 1 caster level)
Otherworldly Kimono (+4 caster level)
Prayer Beads - Karma (+4 caster level, needs UMD skill check to use)
So a Intensified, Empowered, Maximized Battering Blast (caster level 37 – remember feats are doubled due to Spell Perfection) only use a 4th level spellslot.
It creates 7 blasts of 7d6+7 (+empowered +maximized) = 7x7x6x1,5+49 = 490 force damage for a single 4th level spell.
No save and no problem with most SR due to the high caster level.
The icing on the cake is the 7 bullrushes of CMB 37+60+cha bonus (use the highest).
If you like to go to the extreme on increased caster level see this ridiculous thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r6pu?Challenge-Highest-caster-level#1
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Well lets try to make Battering Blast a bit more deadly (but a one pony trick):
Orc bloodline Sorcerer level 20
Feats:
Spell focus evocation (prerequisite)
Mage's tattoo (+1 caster level)
Spell specialization (+ 2 caster level)
Bloodmage initiate (+1 caster level)
Empower Spell metamagic
Intensified Spell metamagic
Maximize Spell metamagic
Spell Perfection (1 free metamagic & double feat bonuses)Traits:
Magical Lineage (lower metamagic cost 1 level)
Wayang Spellhunter (lower metamagic cost 1 level)Magic Items:
Flawed Orange Prism (+ 1 caster level)
Otherworldly Kimono (+4 caster level)
Prayer Beads - Karma (+4 caster level, needs UMD skill check to use)So a Intensified, Empowered, Maximized Battering Blast (caster level 37 – remember feats are doubled due to Spell Perfection) only use a 4th level spellslot.
It creates 7 blasts of 7d6+7 (+empowered +maximized) = 7x7x6x1,5+49 = 490 force damage for a single 4th level spell.
No save and no problem with most SR due to the high caster level.
The icing on the cake is the 7 bullrushes of CMB 37+60+cha bonus (use the highest).If you like to go to the extreme on increased caster level see this ridiculous thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r6pu?Challenge-Highest-caster-level#1
No comments - really?
Well lets try to make Battering Blast a bit more deadly (but a one pony trick):
Orc bloodline Sorcerer level 20
Feats:
Spell focus evocation (prerequisite)
Mage's tattoo (+1 caster level)
Spell specialization (+ 2 caster level)
Bloodmage initiate (+1 caster level)
Empower Spell metamagic
Intensified Spell metamagic
Maximize Spell metamagic
Spell Perfection (1 free metamagic & double feat bonuses)Traits:
Magical Lineage (lower metamagic cost 1 level)
Wayang Spellhunter (lower metamagic cost 1 level)Magic Items:
Flawed Orange Prism (+ 1 caster level)
Otherworldly Kimono (+4 caster level)
Prayer Beads - Karma (+4 caster level, needs UMD skill check to use)So a Intensified, Empowered, Maximized Battering Blast (caster level 37 – remember feats are doubled due to Spell Perfection) only use a 4th level spellslot.
It creates 7 blasts of 7d6+7 (+empowered +maximized) = 7x7x6x1,5+49 = 490 force damage for a single 4th level spell.
No save and no problem with most SR due to the high caster level.
The icing on the cake is the 7 bullrushes of CMB 37+60+cha bonus (use the highest).If you like to go to the extreme on increased caster level see this ridiculous thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r6pu?Challenge-Highest-caster-level#1No comments - really?