How does my cleric survive a gunslinger?


Advice

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Not sure if it came up yet or not, but another option to extend survivability on the cleric might be a mix of Imbue with Spell Ability and Shield Other so that the minions eat half her damage ; also don't forget her Master's Illusion ability (veil can be handy).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
burkoJames wrote:
If you are two weapon fighting your off hand is considered occupied the entire round.

I'm going to go ahead and respond to this because I've gotten what I wanted out of this thread, and so the topic doesn't really matter all that much anymore.

First, I'm the OP. Those characters I linked to are up to date. Short of us botching the math, the +7 Will save is accurate and up to date. Not sure where you got the "according to the OP" as I don't recall saying anything of the sort.

Second, if you are going to assert that something is true (that your off-hand is considered occupied the entire round), then the onus is on you to prove it. You provided an example that lends support to your statement, but it's not really proof, especially when one considers that the magus is a big bag of rules exceptions.

Do you have a FAQ entry or anything that better supports your claim? Or do you really believe that my character can't dual wield knives, because my off-hand is too busy throwing a knife this round to be able to quick draw out a new one?

Scarab Sages

I apologize I had read your statement about most of them having fixed their will save , and thought you said all of them. If the gunslinger hasn't updated his save the answer to your question is hit him in the will save. It is the classic way to slow down martials for a reason.

As for my two hands ruling, it goes to the metaphysical two hands of effort. I can't find the posts, but they expanded this faq to explainthat a ballance assumption was made that you only have two hands of effort for making attacks. There are a variety of need a free hand styles (Fencing Grace, For instance) and just like with spell combat, you can't use that hand then drop the item out of that hand to make use of fencing grace. Its a general balancing issue.

Silver Crusade

You've got to get that gunslinger mobbed, disarmed and disabled. I would round up every minion I had in the entire complex and find a way to bring them all to bear in 1 big fight. 5 baddies aiding 1 baddie to disarm him followed by 1 other baddie running off with his weapon is an idea.

I also like the Uber cheese of a large air elemental whirlwinding the gunslinger and just removing him from the combat.

Persistant heightened glitterdust. Or suggestion.


Ravingdork I'm more just curious how they are duel wielding the pepper boxes for multiple shots, myself.

How does that work in your game? Guns are still odd to me and my wife is playing one in our winter campaign. Just curious how it works.


Ravingdork wrote:
Do you have a FAQ entry or anything that better supports your claim? Or do you really believe that my character can't dual wield knives, because my off-hand is too busy throwing a knife this round to be able to quick draw out a new one?

I've addressed that fallacious comparison. They are totally different things.

Two handed knife throwing is a TWF action that requires the use of both hands. However, each weapon only requires one hand to use.

TWF with the pepperbox is problematic because it requires two hands to get the use of multiple shots from that weapon.

The interpretation allowing this to happen opens up some absurd doors.

For example, Slashing Grace says that nothing can be used in the off hand. Ok. I'll start out dual wielding the weapons. I'll take my attacks with one weapon without Dex to damage. Drop that weapon, then get Dex-to damage on the attacks from the other hand. Once I drop one weapon, I'm not "fighting with two weapons" anymore, bypassing the restriction on the Feat.

Or, how about a character starting out holding a two handed sword in one hand and a dagger in the other. He makes all his TWF extra attacks with the dagger, then drops it. Then he makes all his regular attacks with the two handed sword.

You created this thread concerned about the large damage output of your Gunslinger. I'll argue that your Gunslinger is doing somewhere around 30-40% more damage than he/she would otherwise be doing specifically because you're allowing this extra attack.


Dual wielding pepperboxes is equivalent to dual wielding longbows. They both take two hands to operate.


As for the legality of dual wielding pepperboxes, this FAQ implies that you don't have a free hand if your main hand and off hand are occupied with two weapon fighting.


200 posts.... really?!?

For leprechaun sake..... just Plane Shift his ass into the the 8th Realm of Nowhere and be done with it! :))


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cavall wrote:

Ravingdork I'm more just curious how they are duel wielding the pepper boxes for multiple shots, myself.

How does that work in your game? Guns are still odd to me and my wife is playing one in our winter campaign. Just curious how it works.

I'm going to move the pepperbox discussion to a new thread, so it can get the attention and focus it deserves.

Melkiador wrote:
As for the legality of dual wielding pepperboxes, this FAQ implies that you don't have a free hand if your main hand and off hand are occupied with two weapon fighting.

One must be wary of citing FAQ implications in that manner. It's been made clear by the developers that they only cover what is explicitly spelled out in their entries, in this case, armor spikes and great swords.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Melkiador wrote:
To be clear, archers don't rely on free actions. Drawing an arrow as part of a bow attack is the "not an action" action.

To quote Cheapy from another thread, you're thinking of nocking an arrow.

Action Types

Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.

I was referring to drawing the arrow:

Weapons

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Sovereign Court

Sanctuary. Gunslingers reek at will saves.


Ravingdork wrote:
kamenhero25 wrote:
It doesn't matter if it's pre-written unless for some reason you have to run it exactly as written.

I pride myself in running modules as written, unlike other GMs who change so much at times that people begin to wonder why they invested in the module in the first place.

The only reason I'm even here is because the module clearly stated that she takes steps to counter the PCs' specific abilities.

It's respectable enough, I suppose, that you have a personal code you like to stick to.

But it sounds to me, from everything you've said, like the PCs are too overpowered for the module in question.

You can't run an adventure for level 10 - 12 characters taking equivalent level 15 characters and expect a challenge. You have to make adjustments.


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Bruunwald wrote:
You can't run an adventure for level 10 - 12 characters taking equivalent level 15 characters and expect a challenge. You have to make adjustments.

That would defeat the purpose of using 25-point buy in the first place. If I wanted that, I would have just stuck to 15-point buy and saved myself a lot of work.

And as I've said, most of the adventure paths we've run have proven to be more than enough challenge--too much even--for our "overpowered" characters.


Sorry for having a harder time reading through the whole thing but has any one suggested single nerfing her standard forms of AC by dropping her armor/Buff Spells and just upping her touch AC through the rings of Deflection and Protection? Which give Deflect and Dodge AC Which both go to touch. Her CMD will also go up if that was an issue.

I know I suggested super DM power rule last time but this is just basic gear she could have and it would target out almost just the Gunslinger while leaving her static AC to every one else pretty much the same


These: and several of them. They last for 5 rounds and all the minions/summoned monkeys can throw one in before closing with the Gunslinger... This will give time for the Will Save-or-suck spells to target...

Arrow Magnet works on bullets


How'd the fight go?


Ravingdork wrote:
Bruunwald wrote:
You can't run an adventure for level 10 - 12 characters taking equivalent level 15 characters and expect a challenge. You have to make adjustments.

That would defeat the purpose of using 25-point buy in the first place. If I wanted that, I would have just stuck to 15-point buy and saved myself a lot of work.

And as I've said, most of the adventure paths we've run have proven to be more than enough challenge--too much even--for our "overpowered" characters.

I'm also curious how the game went but also curious if most of your group's previous games have gotten to this level. You are at the level where balance really starts breaking down.


I do want to hear the outcome as well. Even though none of the options he planned to use sounded like mine...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Finished the shrine encounter last night. One-way silence from the alter neutered most PC spellcasting, though the players were quick to find where the boundaries were, stand outside them, then cast fireballs into the temple. Spamming negative energy was not nearly effective as I'd hoped, doing minimal damage.

Lead cleric tried to hit two characters with a cylindrical blade barrier, but both made their saves and stepped outside the area, taking no damage. The barrier cut off the way they came, but does nothing to prevent their moving forward.

Wind penalties to ranged attacks and fickle winds cut the gunslinger's DPR in half. She still killed a lot of clerics in short order. However, it was the dual-wielding, feinting, sneak attacking captain that killed most of the people during the encounter. She also summoned three giant praying mantises and a mantis swarm to great effect via her spell-like abilities (thereby bypassing the silence effect).

The symbols and bestow curse spells were useless, as most everyone made their saves. The cleric cohort got hit by the symbol of slow, which didn't severely impact her during the encounter. The party sorcerer got hit by the symbol of
pain
, which will haunt her in the next several encounters to come. Of all the characters to get lasting penalties, she was the one who needed them the least.

Now that the players are aware that the windstorm is mucking up their attacks, they are planning on using wall spells and spells like stone shape to seal off rooms, the better to shoot and gas their enemies in later encounters. :-[

I was really hoping to end the fight with more lasting penalties on some of the martial characters. At least they are going to be eating up a ton of resources if they start walling areas off I guess.

Unless there resources continue to drain quickly, I expect most of the coming encounters to be relatively straightforward for them.


and everyone (including you) had fun?


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cuatroespada wrote:
and everyone (including you) had fun?

I think so. I was suffering from an ear infection and could hardly hear a damn thing though. We also started late due to some of the players' work schedules, and others couldn't stay long due to early morning starts. I was considering calling the game off for another day, where we would have more time to focus on the game, and I would be able to communicate with everyone better, but they were adamant that I hosted anyways. As it was, it didn't go too bad. They had to repeat a lot of stuff to me, which was annoying, but it didn't seem to greatly impact the overall game's atmosphere.

I think they did have fun. They made it clear that they felt more challenged then they had been in some time. Many had never taken that much damage, or had been so limited in their actions before. Facing an intelligent enemy who knows your tactics and is prepared for you is something they've not really had to deal with before.

But now they know that the enemy knows their tactics. They know the enemy knows they have infiltrated the fort. I imagine they will be a little more cautious moving forward, maybe even changing up their standard strategies.

I'm just hoping they will run low on bullets and spells before the end. I suspect they are smarter than that though.


well it sounds like a success. hope you feel better.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

They are at the level where running low on should mean that they just have some battlefield control spells for an emergency.

Sounds like it went pretty well.


Ravingdork wrote:


I'm just hoping they will run low on bullets and spells before the end. I suspect they are smarter than that though.

Interrupt their rest periods with hit and run tactics. If they're using rope trick, send summoned minions with dispel magic abilities to dispel it and dump them on their asses. Burn module treasure on spells like planar ally/planar binding.

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