Ruminating on the Trouble Of Finding Long Term Online Games


Gamer Life General Discussion


Forgive me if this post is in the wrong area, It's more of a musing on the foibles of online tabletop RPGing than a specific call to action per se, but it seems that having a group last longer than a year online is extremely difficult, and no surprise to anyone on this forum, I'm sure.

I have a hard time finding games near me...I live in a very 'urban' area, so not many RPG fans around me, and to trek to the nearest gaming store is just logistically not an option.

I fell in love with roll20's interface and the potential to "have my cake and eat it too" (meaning playing in my underwear with a micro-brewed-beer and a joint).

I even got incredibly lucky out of the gate and joined a group that lasted a little over 2 years. We played Carrion Crown until 10th level when the GM had a personal issue come up.

That was last year, and since then, it has been a succession of disappointments. I joined a Kingmaker group that became a "one-man-show" of one player basically forcing his character into the spotlight every session, including making his dhampir Cleric of Urgathoa (no idea why the GM allowed it in a LN kingdom)rape a prisoner to death in front of the citizens. What? Read that again. It happened. Next session, my druid attempted to save a baby owlbear and bring it back to the kingdom, and it became a giant "to-do" because same player (the raper) thought it was "too much". Although I protested, I eventually capitulated to the group (who supported this guy, because they were all in a gaming group together on another day as well). Needless to say, that group dissolved soon after that, after a few months of play.

The next was a Giantslayer game that lasted the first book before the GM called it due to personal reasons. After that, a Hell's Rebels Campaign where a cocky GM thought he was so good at what he did that he could "wing it" (his words) with little to no preperation. What followed was a few 4 hour sessions with about 2 hours of actual play, peppered with spans of GM silence while he read the book as we came to the parts...the group recently dissolved, and the GM blamed the players for "not liking his style".

In summary, I wasn't just writing to b!@#& and whine, but to ask for other's experiences. Am I doing something wrong? Am I expecting too much from online groups? All I want is to play an AP from Book 1 to the end. I think they are a phenomenal idea, and something I have always wanted as a player.

Are today's millenial players too "all-over-the-place" to see a game t through? I constantly see younger players who bring a PC to the game, only to begin planning a new character one session later, and make questionable choices to basically commit suicide just to get the new character in.

I'm not even that old...I'm 35, and consider myself fairly youthful still, so I shouldn't be going all "Abe Simpson" on the kids, but sheesh! Can't a guy get a game 'round here?

Are there other community sites like Roll20 that feature that sort of integration? It seems to be sliding more 5E than PF these days.
I would try PFS, but I like the idea of one consistent group, not a "mercenary" style game.

Am I expecting too much?


Flagging to be moved to Online Campaigns General Discussion, because I am OCD about where threads belong (heh).

Have you considered Play by Post games(Online Games - Recruitment)? While slower than Roll20, many are solid. You do have DM's drop out occasionally, as it is the nature of the beast, but you also have DM's taking up the slack sometimes for those games.

-- david


Appreciate the advice, but I find PbP to be maddening. They seem to lack the reactionary drama that is inherent in a live game that helps develop a voice and banter between characters. I find my previous PbP experience to be severely lacking in those areas. Plus, dice rolls are problematic.

I totally understand GMing is tedious and largely a thankless job. I am currently GMing Serpent's Skull, and I enjoy it, as do my players. I love tailoring music to fit with each scenario, giving the BBG's their own theme music and sound effects, and I love setting up maps and stuff...I just also want to play once a week!

I just thought maybe there was another roll20-ish site for online live games.


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LazGrizzle wrote:

Appreciate the advice, but I find PbP to be maddening. They seem to lack the reactionary drama that is inherent in a live game that helps develop a voice and banter between characters. I find my previous PbP experience to be severely lacking in those areas. Plus, dice rolls are problematic.

I totally understand GMing is tedious and largely a thankless job. I am currently GMing Serpent's Skull, and I enjoy it, as do my players. I love tailoring music to fit with each scenario, giving the BBG's their own theme music and sound effects, and I love setting up maps and stuff...I just also want to play once a week!

I just thought maybe there was another roll20-ish site for online live games.

There are several - although to my knowledge Roll20 is the cheapest of the options and as such also the most popular. Fantasy Grounds is almost as popular and there are a host of others as well depending on how much support you need in your fantasy table top.


Finding a dedicated DM is probably the hardest part of playing TTRPGS; I don't think the problem stems from playing online. My solution has been to run my own games, and encourage my players to run their own as well -- it's worked to give me time as both GM and player.


I don't think playing online changes anything in this regard - there's generally a lot of disruption in campaigns even with f2f games.

The main difference being that when you play f2f, often times you are already friends with the other players, and as such, you have more reasons than gaming to keep in touch.

If you're looking for a multi-year commitment, expect to be disappointed regularly.

The Exchange

LazGrizzle wrote:
Appreciate the advice, but I find PbP to be maddening. They seem to lack the reactionary drama that is inherent in a live game that helps develop a voice and banter between characters. I find my previous PbP experience to be severely lacking in those areas. Plus, dice rolls are problematic.

That's not necessarily true, but on the other hand PbPs tend to be about as long-lasting as the live games you describe. It's about getting a good group together who are committed, and that's not easy in either medium I suspect.


Aubrey the Malformed wrote:
LazGrizzle wrote:
Appreciate the advice, but I find PbP to be maddening. They seem to lack the reactionary drama that is inherent in a live game that helps develop a voice and banter between characters. I find my previous PbP experience to be severely lacking in those areas. Plus, dice rolls are problematic.
That's not necessarily true, but on the other hand PbPs tend to be about as long-lasting as the live games you describe. It's about getting a good group together who are committed, and that's not easy in either medium I suspect.

It definitely could be a case of "one bad experience", but it was strange. I guess I was just spoiled by having a 2 year group out of the gate that went well for so long.

The Exchange

Like your virtual table-top, PbP is very dependent upon the quality and stamina of the players. That said, there are probably more bad PbP experiences out there to be had than good ones, sadly.


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I have found that online or off gamers are the flakiest human beings on the planet.


I have yet to have a single good online RPG experience.

Every game tends to have "that guy" who makes the character that destroys everything in one shot, even when it is a game based on subtlety and making contacts and they get away with it due to being the GM's friend. (Dark Heresy) Or there is the cheating GM who will say things like "Your wife lays there dying at your feet after she was shot in a drive by. She does not have much time." and you apply a savior med pack and call doc wagon (Shadowrun 4th by the way) and then the GM, in retaliation of being thwarted just says they die that second after all, unlike the few minutes they said they had before. And many other examples like this.

Be careful of online RPG games. You may find one, but in my experience, they won't end well.


Not sure why anyone might be against play by post games?


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A problem with PBP (I still keep thinking PBM for some reason) is when someone makes a gigantic forum post that essentially dominates and dictates everyone's actions, thus turning the other players subservient to this one poster, since now if they want to post what they want to do, it conflicts what the previous poster said. This is at least in my experience. I also hate the long post that describes a character's thoughts as none of my characters are psychic and thus are not privy to that information without metagaming. There is also when you see a massive post and your own would only be one or two sentences and thus feel somewhat inferior as one is mocked and told to try posting again, but longer this time. There are also the posters that don't understand taking turns and just keep doing their post immediately after the GM, always "solving" the situation with their mega post and thus making it a one player game. Also, personally, I can't stand when people say U and R as words. I would always say I can't understand their accent.

Again, my experience with PBP and online gaming.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've been lucky with PbP, in that even though I've had a lot of games fall apart (or never get started before the GM vanishes) I have a few that have gone for years without more than a few hiccups. For me, PbP is all the gaming I can do at the moment, as I live far from any gamers I know, and my work schedule can be erratic (as far as when I finish during the day--kind of rough when the boss wants to chat about something Right Now and intercepts me on my way out the door). So yeah, it's far from ideal, but it works. Besides, the other players in the longest-running game I'm in are in California, Florida, Scotland, and Malaysia--there's no way I would ever have met any of them to game in person.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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@LazGrizzle — How do you know that the players/GMs you've had trouble with are "today's millennials" rather than your fellow 35-year-olds in their underwear with a micro-brewed beer and a joint (or any other demographic for that matter, such as overweight retirees with 30+ years of entrenched habits RPG experience)? Did your online RPG groups regularly disburse personal information or something?


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One aspect that's occurred to me recently is that too often we set out with the goal of achieving the ideal, before we test to see if it's even possible.

Consider building an RPG group with the analogy to dating. You don't post ads "Looking for long term partner, must like dogs, marriage ceremony in three weeks."

My advice, when trying to build a group (face to face or online), play short games. Make small commitments. Now, when you have to replace one or more players, that small commitment means you aren't frustrated that the long campaign is ruined, or trying to slot new players into an ongoing campaign.

Instead of building the group around the campaign, build the campaign around the group. A bunch of people who don't know each other should plan something short. If everything works great, plan a longer campaign. Let that comfort and trust build up over time and don't rely on it being there naturally.


Jiggy wrote:
@LazGrizzle — How do you know that the players/GMs you've had trouble with are "today's millennials" rather than your fellow 35-year-olds in their underwear with a micro-brewed beer and a joint (or any other demographic for that matter, such as overweight retirees with 30+ years of entrenched habits RPG experience)? Did your online RPG groups regularly disburse personal information or something?

This is totally fair, but in the circumstances I have experienced, the ones that vanish from the group with no warning or try and make a new character every session have been millenials, because we asked each other our ages. Not really an uncommon question in a game group. We didn't exchange social security numbers or ATM PINs or anything. But age is fairly common to know in a group, in my experience.


KenderKin wrote:
Not sure why anyone might be against play by post games?

Had a bad experience with one. Dice rolls were iffy, one player dominates by posting pages that the other players now cannot contradict, DM disappearing, etc. An established, set time with voice communication is ideal for my gaming preferences.

Just not my cup of tea.


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Jiggy wrote:
@LazGrizzle — How do you know that the players/GMs you've had trouble with are "today's millennials" rather than your fellow 35-year-olds in their underwear with a micro-brewed beer and a joint (or any other demographic for that matter, such as overweight retirees with 30+ years of entrenched habits RPG experience)? Did your online RPG groups regularly disburse personal information or something?

Hey, I resemble that!

-- david


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LazGrizzle wrote:
KenderKin wrote:
Not sure why anyone might be against play by post games?
Had a bad experience with one. Dice rolls were iffy, one player dominates by posting pages that the other players now cannot contradict, DM disappearing, etc. An established, set time with voice communication is ideal for my gaming preferences.

Those are all true!

I had a player state he was waiting for my player to come to him...standing his ground so to speak...

I get super close to him....and use call the void....

Another PC jumps in and tells him to run

He then agrees he is running....

Then expected a chase to ensue...

I was like what the F just happened? I got to within 10 feet of you and you do a reset and want me to still be like 60 feet away....

True story.


With all this said, if anyone is interested in trying a group on Roll20, maybe Emerald Spire or something, drop me a line. On roll20 I'm just Green.


LazGrizzle wrote:
KenderKin wrote:
Not sure why anyone might be against play by post games?

Had a bad experience with one. Dice rolls were iffy, one player dominates by posting pages that the other players now cannot contradict, DM disappearing, etc. An established, set time with voice communication is ideal for my gaming preferences.

Just not my cup of tea.

Let's not forget the wretched clusterf~+~ that recruitment is. All of these things have happened to me, though not in the same game:

GM comes up with an idea. Expects fifteen page thesis from each player applying. Forty-seven people try to get into the game (exaggeration but still).

Fast forward two f*%$ing weeks. Why? I don't know. You expect players to actually post every day, but you give them two weeks to look through the recruitment posts? I can get a few days worth, but if someone isn't checking for new games regularly, what are the odds do you think that they'll be posting regularly? Recruitment finally closes. GM takes yet another two to three days to actually choose who they're going with, because apparently two weeks isn't enough to figure it out.

GM chooses four players. Of those four, two drop out, and instead of just choosing a backup from the other fourty-three who applied, he decides to start the entire process over for "replacements" in a game that has only been going about eleven posts.

At least one of the four players fades away, stops posting, or just gives you two-line updates. This occurs for a week before the GM private messages them and waits ANOTHER week before finally looking for a replacement. Not more than one, mind you, because heaven forbid he go over four just in case someone drops out, but just one. By the time we get a replacement, at least another player has gotten so tired of waiting that he leaves. This happens three times.

GM has emergencies or gets depressed or has creative issues and stops posting for about a month. Comes back for...oh, a week or so, says he's good to go, and GM only posts about once every four days, despite, again, specifying once a day minimum for players during the application process. All the players try to RP interparty discussion to keep the game going, but it's clear nothing is happen. People look at you like you're a quitter when a month later without updates from the GM you say "f@*@ this, I'm out."

Now, you've got aliases that haven't even broken 100 posts, and when you apply for games, GMs look at you like you're a quitter, and you have to inevitably change all the stats on one of your aliases to a totally different character to fit in another game to artificially inflate your post count for something that isn't even your fault - and did I mention how f@#~ing long it takes to make a character sheet on PbP? Even with a template that's a long ass time!

Despite actually participating in PbPs, the main thing I hate about them is I want to play an RPG relatively soon, not maybe possibly eventually if I'm lucky play one in a few months.


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Exactly, GreenTea...

There seems to be a large contingent of RPGers that like to PREPARE to play more than actually PLAYING them.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I've found the best way to find a stable online group is to cultivate it over many smaller games. My current crew came together over PFS games online and has weathered a number of guests who showed up for awhile and then dropped off. Now we have a fairly solid core.


In my experience with PbP and also based on observation from lurking through other games is that most people who are able and willing to stick with it long enough, be it players or GMs, eventually seem to find people they click with and tend to gravitate to mostly those same people for future games - they tend to either pick players they're already familiar with for new games or they apply to games where they already have experience with the GM.

Honestly, I think this is a natural and rather understandable progression of things but the flip-side is that it can leave new-to-PbP-players out which can cause hard feelings. Most GMs I have seen are good about trying to give spots to new people or they will skip making a recruitment thread entirely and just do select invites for a private game.

Mind you this is mainly for 'other' PbP games. From what I've seen PFS games are largely filled on a first-come-first-serve basis or by lottery, but there's usually enough GMs running scenarios that everyone eventually gets a chance to play. A lot of PbP comes down to being persistent.

I can't speak for Roll20 or any other VTT formats because they're not my thing.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

LazGrizzle wrote:
KenderKin wrote:
Not sure why anyone might be against play by post games?

Had a bad experience with one. Dice rolls were iffy, one player dominates by posting pages that the other players now cannot contradict, DM disappearing, etc. An established, set time with voice communication is ideal for my gaming preferences.

Just not my cup of tea.

Okay, I have to ask, as this is (I think) the second time you've mentioned die-roll issues in PbP. What exactly was going on? Was it here on Paizo.com? Because it's not like people can fake their rolls when they're right there for everyone to see, so are you meaning something else?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

thegreenteagamer wrote:
[various complaints]

Hm, you might be a good fit for my next campaign. One of my campaigns is likely to wrap up this summer (they're on the last dungeon before the final showdown, and making good progress). Once that happens, I will very likely start up another one.

I will confess being guilty of one of your annoyances, though: I do leave recruitment open for more than a week. Just because someone can consistently come up with a few minutes with access to the site every day to post, doesn't mean they can come up with four hours of character creation at home with their books within a couple of days of seeing a recruitment thread. Thus, I like my recruitments to include two weekends.

But if you can deal with that, keep an eye out for my next game.


Jiggy wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
[various complaints]

Hm, you might be a good fit for my next campaign. One of my campaigns is likely to wrap up this summer (they're on the last dungeon before the final showdown, and making good progress). Once that happens, I will very likely start up another one.

I will confess being guilty of one of your annoyances, though: I do leave recruitment open for more than a week. Just because someone can consistently come up with a few minutes with access to the site every day to post, doesn't mean they can come up with four hours of character creation at home with their books within a couple of days of seeing a recruitment thread. Thus, I like my recruitments to include two weekends.

But if you can deal with that, keep an eye out for my next game.

Absolutely. I enjoy reading your persuasive arguments around the sites (do you have a blog?) so I really think I'd enjoy your style as a GM. That's fair enough...I guess I wouldn't mind it so much if it wasn't for the fact that by the time GMs get done with those long recruitment you have like 40 applicants, and a lot of people get disappointed.

You know how disappointing it is to come up with an entire character specifically tailor made for one game and have it rejected? Then you have to either shoehorn that into another game somehow by tweaking it until it's barely the same character, or just leave it floating in the abyss until something similar never comes along. I get why people do it, it just...really sucks.


Jiggy wrote:
Because it's not like people can fake their rolls when they're right there for everyone to see, so are you meaning something else?

Not exactly true.

You can hit preview, and if you don't like what you see, roll that dice in another thread, re-post your dice roll, delete the roll from another thread, and move on.

It's a lot of work to cheat, but it is possible. I don't know why you'd cheat in an RPG - you don't get a prize for winning or anything, but...some people are that type.


Not even a certificate...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The Green Tea Gamer wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Because it's not like people can fake their rolls when they're right there for everyone to see, so are you meaning something else?

Not exactly true.

You can hit preview, and if you don't like what you see, roll that dice in another thread, re-post your dice roll, delete the roll from another thread, and move on.

Really? I thought the forum had a separate "memory" for any given thread.

Quote:
It's a lot of work to cheat, but it is possible. I don't know why you'd cheat in an RPG - you don't get a prize for winning or anything, but...some people are that type.

I find it usually has to do with getting the gameplay to match your expectations. The most classic example is when the fight is supposed to be difficult and scary but the game is telling you it's much easier than anticipated, so the GM cheats the rolls (or inflates the HP, or whatever) in order to get things to play out the way they envisioned. On the player side, it might be something like wanting to execute a cool, cinematic turn that starts with a chandelier swing which—if the Acrobatics check fails—instead results in you faceplanting and accomplishing nothing, in a manner completely at odds with how you envisioned the scene going and bruises your super-cool mental image of your character.

Basically, I think the cheating comes in when people forget that there are differences between RPGs and other storytelling mediums, and they sometimes feel like they're authors and the dice are coming into their workshops and rewriting their lovingly-crafted manuscripts against their will.


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I thought of Drizz't twenty years before that hack Salvatore! but my damn dice kept rolling ones!!!


One nice thing about PbPs rather than roll20 style online games is that you can join multiple PbPs and play the averages that a few of them will actually turn out to be long term games with committed players and a committed GM. I've joined dozens of games since I got the bug and I'm in 9 right now of which really only three are very active but the others don't seem to be dying....

PbPs require attention but they aren't dependent on a scheduled block of time per week so you can try your hand at more of them.


I will probably re-run Shackled City again once my current group makes it all the way through....

Do not hold your breath they just made 9th level and are wrapping up the Demonskar Legacy.....

We started in 2010....
But to be fair I have added the fan content of chapter zero, visit the Lucky Monkey, and the Demonskar ball.

I likewise added Forge of Fury, The Speaker in Dreams, and The Standing Stones to the lineup.......

My goal is not to finish, the goal has been to enjoy the game!


So nobody really plays online, live with voice, except roll20 and fantasy grounds? That is strange to me. I thought that would be the more popular version as opposed to PBP, but what do I know!

I have been waiting my whole dang life to be able to play online like that...the feel of a live table, but without having to drive 30 miles to do so.

If anyone here is interested, I may just end up running Runelords or Jade Reagent for a long term campaign in about a month. PM me. It will be on roll20.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Most people don't like to make that commitment where they have to be at a certain place at a certain time each week. I see that with raiding groups in MMORPGs, with comments like "I just don't want to have to schedule my life around a game." So they prefer pbp, which allows them to hop online for 3 minutes, type out an action, and then go do something else.

Now, that's not true for everyone, but that's the vibe I get from the whole thing, and from comments I see about scheduling.

I personally would love to play a roll20 game again. Unfortunately, my work schedule is so erratic that I can't make that kind of commitment. I still have never played Rise of the Runelords, and would love to. But it would take a special kind of group to make me play with Pathfinder rules again. Bad experience with the last couple Pathfinder groups soured me.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazGrizzle wrote:

So nobody really plays online, live with voice, except roll20 and fantasy grounds? That is strange to me. I thought that would be the more popular version as opposed to PBP, but what do I know!

...

I think you're seeing a player group here that tends to PbP. Plenty of people do play on Roll20, though, particularly in Pathfinder Society. I would, but I'm with Adjule--my schedule isn't very consistent, and that makes it tough. OTOH, a hybrid approach has worked fairly well. If you have a fairly small game, you can play it as PbP with occasional pushes where everyone is on at the same time for an hour or two. We haven't gone with the Skype connections, though.

Scarab Sages

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Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds arent the only places. Maptool has a pretty large following, as does D20Pro. Places like thetangledweb.net are a good place to start looking for a vgt game.

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