The Final Fighter Thread


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Yes. Finally after all the splat books and every boost possible in the d20 framework, we can now come to the conclusion that the fighter is, always was, and always will be, hot garbage.


Paradozen wrote:

1) Combat Stamina is an awesome system that fixes a lot of melee problems with an alternate rules set. Know what else does? Mythic rules. A champion can easily have no mobility problems (getting to move as a swift action, getting climb speeds and leap attakcs), abilities to negate challenges traditionally spellcaster-exclusive (like see in darkness or seven league leap). So, is it invalid to complain about mobility issues in combat, simply because one of the core rpg line hardcover books provides optional rules to fix it?

2) Is the fighter good without combat stamina, but with AWT & its armored partner? This is not a PFS geared question, its a question of how essential the alternative rule is to the discussion.

Honestly, only for the spellcasting archetype.

The stamina system is great for early levels because it gives you a bonus to hit. The interactions with feats is cake.


Rhedyn wrote:
Yes. Finally after all the splat books and every boost possible in the d20 framework, we can now come to the conclusion that the fighter is, always was, and always will be, hot garbage.

Cause I'm...

Hooooot garbage. Check it and see.

Got a fever of hundred and three.

Come on baby you can do more than this.

I'm hot garbage. Hot garbage.


I'm disappointed, all of this final fighter talk, and not a single picture or thought for Mike Haggar..


master_marshmallow wrote:
Paradozen wrote:

1) Combat Stamina is an awesome system that fixes a lot of melee problems with an alternate rules set. Know what else does? Mythic rules. A champion can easily have no mobility problems (getting to move as a swift action, getting climb speeds and leap attakcs), abilities to negate challenges traditionally spellcaster-exclusive (like see in darkness or seven league leap). So, is it invalid to complain about mobility issues in combat, simply because one of the core rpg line hardcover books provides optional rules to fix it?

2) Is the fighter good without combat stamina, but with AWT & its armored partner? This is not a PFS geared question, its a question of how essential the alternative rule is to the discussion.

Honestly, only for the spellcasting archetype.

The stamina system is great for early levels because it gives you a bonus to hit. The interactions with feats is cake.

So how about we move away from the stamina argument and show other places it is fixed/needs help. The PFS master race arguement isn't helping this,its obscuring the topic. Perhaps a new thread is needed for the problem.

The class now can deal with disassembling the enemy better than many others while also being good at preventing the same to them. It has an effectively good will save and more skills to use, which helps it a lot out of combat. It also has some help with intimidate. What it lacks is mobility and unique out of combat utility. From my observation, combat stamina doesn't fix this, neither does advanced armor/weapon training.

Mobility is a big issue because a lot of melee types other than fighter get this. Monks can teleport, paladins/rangers have built-in mounts, barbarians get pounce, caster types have spells ranging from jesters jaunt to fly, and even the ninja has a few tricks. The fighter is a little faster in full plate (but not much). Pounce isn't needed, but something is.

Out of combat is less of an issue, as good RP and creativity can supplement this, but it would help to get non-intimidate options. Comparing to other classes, it lacks a real niche here. Spells aren't required, but it would help if it were the best at a skill. This problem is shared by brawler and barbarian however, which are still solid classes, so this while nice, isn't as huge for keeping the class comparable.

Note, these observations shouldn't read fighter is fine/awful, just point out the two most crippling flaws I still see unsupported. I also have limited knowledge on item mastery/magic tactics toolbox


Item Mastery is now available as an Advanced Weapon Training option. They enable one to caddy certain spells a certain number of times per day. Good spells, Dimension Door, Fly, Dispel Magic.

The fighters access to magic abilities in a make shift way gives him much more utility, both in and out of combat. Master Craftsman for free and Craft Magic A&A for Armor is a really good ability. Think of all the magic armor out there with crazy good effects. To mind, celestial armor and shield enable all day flight.


master_marshmallow said wrote:


AWT doesn't have to come in feats... it has the option to.

Also:

Warrior Spirit (Su): wrote:

The fighter can forge a spiritual
bond with a weapon that belongs to the associated weapon
group, allowing him to unlock the weapon’s potential. Each
day, he designates one such weapon and gains a number of
points of spiritual energy equal to 1 + his weapon training
bonus. While wielding this weapon, he can spend 1 point of
spiritual energy to grant the weapon an enhancement bonus
equal to his weapon training bonus. Enhancement bonuses
gained by this advanced weapon training option stack with
those of the weapon, to a maximum of +5.
The fighter can also imbue the weapon with any one
weapon special ability with an equivalent enhancement
bonus less than or equal to his maximum bonus by
reducing the granted enhancement bonus by the amount
of the equivalent enhancement bonus. The item must have
an enhancement bonus of at least +1 (from the item itself
or from warrior spirit) to gain a weapon special ability. In
either case, these bonuses last for 1 minute.
If that's not worth a feat or a Weapon Group, then I don't know what is.

For reference:

Training, +1 (CL 3rd) wrote:

Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled
warriors, a training weapon grants one combat feat to the
wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. The
feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the
weapon. That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any
other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets
its prerequisites. Once chosen, the feat stored in the weapon
cannot be changed.
Quote:

Now, if it works for the abilities that allow you to invoke the metal of your armor, and/or the magic in items, that's actually not bad.

ANd it might be how I'm reading it, but it looks like you have to name the feat when you take Abundant tactics? IF not, perhaps it can be used on multiple feats, which would be quite useful (and worthy of an AWT Feat). Now we just need a list of all the actually useful feats which can be used x/day...and then compare them to class abilities that do the same thing.

Essentially, the fighter can use Warrior Spirit to bond with a weapon, granting it an enhancement bonus equal to his Weapon Training Bonus, and as long as at least +1 of it is already an enhancement bonus, then he can pick any weapon enhancement he wants. Training is a weapon enhancement, and he can gain a feat temporarily. He can choose Advanced Weapon Training, so long as he meets the prerequisites. If he does, then he can take Abundant Tactics and use it on Barroom Brawler, which is imo the most obvious choice to use Abundant Tactics with.

Does that really work though? I thought the only way to get Warrior Spirit was as a Feat or an AWT, but doesn't the second option reduce your enhancement bonus?


M1k31 wrote:
master_marshmallow said wrote:


AWT doesn't have to come in feats... it has the option to.

Also:

Warrior Spirit (Su): wrote:

The fighter can forge a spiritual
bond with a weapon that belongs to the associated weapon
group, allowing him to unlock the weapon’s potential. Each
day, he designates one such weapon and gains a number of
points of spiritual energy equal to 1 + his weapon training
bonus. While wielding this weapon, he can spend 1 point of
spiritual energy to grant the weapon an enhancement bonus
equal to his weapon training bonus. Enhancement bonuses
gained by this advanced weapon training option stack with
those of the weapon, to a maximum of +5.
The fighter can also imbue the weapon with any one
weapon special ability with an equivalent enhancement
bonus less than or equal to his maximum bonus by
reducing the granted enhancement bonus by the amount
of the equivalent enhancement bonus. The item must have
an enhancement bonus of at least +1 (from the item itself
or from warrior spirit) to gain a weapon special ability. In
either case, these bonuses last for 1 minute.
If that's not worth a feat or a Weapon Group, then I don't know what is.

For reference:

Training, +1 (CL 3rd) wrote:

Popular among those who seek to impersonate skilled
warriors, a training weapon grants one combat feat to the
wielder as long as the weapon is drawn and in hand. The
feat is chosen when this special ability is placed on the
weapon. That feat cannot be used as a prerequisite for any
other feats and functions for the wielder only if she meets
its prerequisites. Once chosen, the feat stored in the weapon
cannot be changed.
Quote:

Now, if it works for the abilities that allow you to invoke the metal of your armor, and/or the magic in items, that's actually not bad.

ANd it might be how I'm reading it, but it looks like you have to name the feat when you take Abundant tactics? IF not, perhaps it can be used on multiple

...

Warrior Spirit is totally worth spending the feat or AWT on.

later on, once you have Barroom Brawler going, you can use the weapon ability to gain Training, which can be used to take the feat to take Abundant Tactics.

It reduces the overall gained enhancement by 1.


>GUYS
>Guys, check this out
>I have the solution

>Sigh...what, Timmy?

>I know how we can stop this
>this useless arguing
>so everyone can just read my post and never want to argue this topic ever again
>I know how to [properly run the country/achieve world peace/solve climate change/find out which religion is correct/make a better education system/fix the fighter]
>THERE
>Now you can all stop arguing, because I have just told you the one and only correct solution to this problem.

>Sigh...No, Timmy. You did not. Neither did 42050452 people before you, I am afraid. You have just started a 42050453-d thread on this subject.


I don't have the source for Warrior Spirit. Where is it from? With that (su) descriptor, it looks like something from an archetype...

If it's from The Child Of A&A archetype, I BELIEVE that archetype trades out weapon training. I would like to point you to this sentence:
---------------------
A fighter with an archetype that replaces weapon training cannot select advanced weapon training options.
-----------------------
I may be mistaken, I won't know until you source the ability.

Re: Abundant Tactics, I was referring to how it interacted with Barroom Brawler. It takes an AWT feat and a feat to go from being 1/4 a class feature to 1/2 a class feature. You can use it more then once a day, sure, but you still only get one feat at a time. The brawler gets more uses per day AND more feats. You're spending 2 class resources to get half the benefit of a class feature. That is a HORRIBLE tradeoff.
Now, if you can increase your uses of Item Mastery with it at the same time...

as for Warrior Spirit, I didn't see it listed on the combat feats list On Nethys or d20, so you probably can't take it with that Training Sword (where is that from, also?). Please keep in mind that not all of us have all the very latest information, and do reply on the public sites for reference.
i.e. does Warrior Spirit have the Combat feat descriptor? I don't have the reference.
The training sword is not on that list either, by the way.

Warrior Spirit amounts to about half of what a sword bond is, because the duration on it is fixed. Now, you can get ANY magic equiv, which is crazy strong (basically, this ability is Bane X on command). It's basically a half-strength version of Paladin Sword Bond (which gets ever increasing duration), but with more enhancement choices.
However, that is not an ability you can use x/day, it is described as a pool, and you have to 'spend points'. (*!&^%*&). So, no Abundant Tactics on this. It IS nice, however.

The Training Sword to grant you an AWT doesn't work QUITE as you think, because of that simple language - must satisfy ALL prerequisites.
One of the prereqs of that feat is you can only take it 1/5 levels.
So, you aren't going to get an 'extra' AWT feat. You're going to 'free up' one of your other feats to be used somewhere else, that you would have used to buy AWT. The maximum number of AWT feats you can have does not change.
^%&^%&^ pre-reqs.

And just to be specific, a Training Weapon can only take Combat feats. Weapon Mastery feats do not have the Combat descriptor, and can't be imbued into a Training Weapon.

Your trick of using Warrior Spirit to gain Training to gain Abundant Tactics would thus rely on you 'not' having taken the maximum amount of AWT feats already. I think that unlikely, at best.

Also, any previous uses of Abundant Tactics from Training would naturally count against the number of total uses/day if you put the bonus on again (spent uses count against total uses, always, on any ability). There's already precedent for that, and as you already noted, it is also precedent that you can't change the feat gained for 24 hours once you select one.

Otherwise, what you have here is indeed another Paragon Surge loophole, and I think we can all agree that it's going to get closed the exact same way, so trying to abuse it is an exercise in futility.
Good optimizers stay away from dumb loopholes.
==========

Oh, God, I just looked at the Item Mastery Feats on Nethys.
Yes, Abundant Tactics would work with them.
%&(^)&*)*(&_* You need to spend a feat for EACH CLASS OF ITEM.
Just, ugh. UGH. Frack.


Both of those options are their own Advanced Weapon Training options (as is Weapon Material Mastery) meaning that by purposely not taking the Advanced Weapon Training feat until you have another one, you can add the Advanced Weapon Training feat, as it is a Combat Feat, you then have situational access to any and every Advanced Weapon Training option.

That's a class feature!!!

Barroom Brawler is cake, and a backdoor way of doing the same thing.


In all honesty, even when not taking into account third party products (Not just any third party products, good ones that I've had to re-read and test before letting into my games) or accounting for alternate rules, I'm actually kind of happy with the Fighter options available between the hardcovers and the Player Companion lines. Its not enough to declare martial/caster disparity over but I'm good with comparing it to the other martials right now. I think it would be good to be more encouraging of this direction.

Fotunately I'm not one of the peasants that have to beg for scraps from the Paizo overlords. The same people working there go off to the side to make fantastic third party material for the 3pp master race to wontonly gorge on without consequence.


these options are from magic tactics toolbox


master_marshmallow wrote:

Both of those options are their own Advanced Weapon Training options (as is Weapon Material Mastery) meaning that by purposely not taking the Advanced Weapon Training feat until you have another one, you can add the Advanced Weapon Training feat, as it is a Combat Feat, you then have situational access to any and every Advanced Weapon Training option.

That's a class feature!!!

Barroom Brawler is cake, and a backdoor way of doing the same thing.

Weapon Material Mastery is a Weapon Mastery feat, not a combat feat. It does not have the Combat descriptor, and is not an Advanced Weapon Tactics option.

I'm unable to find Warrior's Spirit. Where is it from, what are the reqs, is it truly an AWT OPTION, or is it a new Weapon Mastery feat, etc. Remember, the AWT abilities are options you can access with Advanced Weapon Training feat, not feats themselves.

I don't have the information.

And I think we both know that trying to make Warrior's Spirit a Paragon Surge for AWT options is going to end poorly. Yes, it would be nice...most loopholes are. But you even admitted in your opening mention of it that it was likely to be ruled just like Paragon Surge, and I think just about everyone would agree on it.

i.e. it's not worth using or basing a build around.

Scarab Sages

Warrior Spirit is an Advanced Weapon Training that appears in Magic Tactics Toolbox.


Das Bier wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Both of those options are their own Advanced Weapon Training options (as is Weapon Material Mastery) meaning that by purposely not taking the Advanced Weapon Training feat until you have another one, you can add the Advanced Weapon Training feat, as it is a Combat Feat, you then have situational access to any and every Advanced Weapon Training option.

That's a class feature!!!

Barroom Brawler is cake, and a backdoor way of doing the same thing.

Weapon Material Mastery is a Weapon Mastery feat, not a combat feat. It does not have the Combat descriptor, and is not an Advanced Weapon Tactics option.

I'm unable to find Warrior's Spirit. Where is it from, what are the reqs, is it truly an AWT OPTION, or is it a new Weapon Mastery feat, etc. Remember, the AWT abilities are options you can access with Advanced Weapon Training feat, not feats themselves.

I don't have the information.

And I think we both know that trying to make Warrior's Spirit a Paragon Surge for AWT options is going to end poorly. Yes, it would be nice...most loopholes are. But you even admitted in your opening mention of it that it was likely to be ruled just like Paragon Surge, and I think just about everyone would agree on it.

i.e. it's not worth using or basing a build around.

Weapon Mastery feats are an option for Advanced Weapon Training....

Look under Weapon Mastery.


Das Bier wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Both of those options are their own Advanced Weapon Training options (as is Weapon Material Mastery) meaning that by purposely not taking the Advanced Weapon Training feat until you have another one, you can add the Advanced Weapon Training feat, as it is a Combat Feat, you then have situational access to any and every Advanced Weapon Training option.

That's a class feature!!!

Barroom Brawler is cake, and a backdoor way of doing the same thing.

Weapon Material Mastery is a Weapon Mastery feat, not a combat feat. It does not have the Combat descriptor, and is not an Advanced Weapon Tactics option.

I'm unable to find Warrior's Spirit. Where is it from, what are the reqs, is it truly an AWT OPTION, or is it a new Weapon Mastery feat, etc. Remember, the AWT abilities are options you can access with Advanced Weapon Training feat, not feats themselves.

I don't have the information.

And I think we both know that trying to make Warrior's Spirit a Paragon Surge for AWT options is going to end poorly. Yes, it would be nice...most loopholes are. But you even admitted in your opening mention of it that it was likely to be ruled just like Paragon Surge, and I think just about everyone would agree on it.

i.e. it's not worth using or basing a build around.

Dude, I cited my sources and named what they were in the OP.....


Well, excellent!

Is there an easy way to increase its number of uses/day, or duration? It makes you get a pool going, is there anything to increase the pool? Another feat or option?

Because, at the moment, we're still dealing with the fantastically limited number of times a day you can use the ability, and the fact you can't get a second AWT before 9th level unless you are a Weapon Master archetype.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Both of those options are their own Advanced Weapon Training options (as is Weapon Material Mastery) meaning that by purposely not taking the Advanced Weapon Training feat until you have another one, you can add the Advanced Weapon Training feat, as it is a Combat Feat, you then have situational access to any and every Advanced Weapon Training option.

That's a class feature!!!

Barroom Brawler is cake, and a backdoor way of doing the same thing.

Weapon Material Mastery is a Weapon Mastery feat, not a combat feat. It does not have the Combat descriptor, and is not an Advanced Weapon Tactics option.

I'm unable to find Warrior's Spirit. Where is it from, what are the reqs, is it truly an AWT OPTION, or is it a new Weapon Mastery feat, etc. Remember, the AWT abilities are options you can access with Advanced Weapon Training feat, not feats themselves.

I don't have the information.

And I think we both know that trying to make Warrior's Spirit a Paragon Surge for AWT options is going to end poorly. Yes, it would be nice...most loopholes are. But you even admitted in your opening mention of it that it was likely to be ruled just like Paragon Surge, and I think just about everyone would agree on it.

i.e. it's not worth using or basing a build around.

Dude, I cited my sources and named what they were in the OP.....

And you made an error calling Weapon Material Mastery an AWT option, so I called you on it and wanted you to double check your facts, since I couldn't do it for you.

Edit: Indirectly, you are correct on this. But you directly named it an AWT option, and it's not on that list. I did check!

That, and, as you noted, the fact this is basically a mirror of the Paragon Surge trick is leading us down the track of 'this is not going to work at all, even if we wish it did.'


Das Bier wrote:

Well, excellent!

Is there an easy way to increase its number of uses/day, or duration? It makes you get a pool going, is there anything to increase the pool? Another feat or option?

Because, at the moment, we're still dealing with the fantastically limited number of times a day you can use the ability, and the fact you can't get a second AWT before 9th level unless you are a Weapon Master archetype.

Gloves of Dueling specifically call out that they increase your weapon training value by 2.

15,000 gp and you're already at +3. +4 at 9th level, and you can finish a bold with another Advanced Weapon Training feat at 10th.

It's great.

EDIT: Also I did research, on the multiple uses of Abundant Tactics, it is unclear if one could gain it and use it multiple times, since we are in the reverse situation of temporarily gaining feats. Rather than gaining the actual feat later, and still being limited to its same number of daily uses, you are gaining the feat which grants additional uses. Either way, it seems best to consider them one in the same, and not allow multiple uses off the feat to gain an exponential number of uses.

Same rule as Paragon Surge.


15,000 gp is a huge chunk of change. It's almost the cost of a +3 weapon by itself. More then a +2 weapon, standing alone...no increments!

In a normal campaign, you're not going to have that until after 10th level. It would represent 1/4 of your wealth at 10th level! Eesh.

I.e. you're going to go through over half the game with 2-3 uses/day of the ability.

So, I'm asking...was there anything there to increase that pool? Is it used for something else?
Could we spend STAMINA to activate the ability instead?


Das Bier wrote:

15,000 gp is a huge chunk of change. It's almost the cost of a +3 weapon by itself. More then a +2 weapon, standing alone...no increments!

In a normal campaign, you're not going to have that until after 10th level. It would represent 1/4 of your wealth at 10th level! Eesh.

I.e. you're going to go through over half the game with 2-3 uses/day of the ability.

So, I'm asking...was there anything there to increase that pool? Is it used for something else?
Could we spend STAMINA to activate the ability instead?

Use Retraining to take Advanced Weapon Training as a feat then train it into something else at later levels for free.

We're talking 5th level here, shouldn't be a problem to have two uses per day of something. The weapon bond thing is great though. It has its own utility, it's like the Bane ability of the Inquisitor if you want.


Yes, being able to pick Bane as an option is quite powerful. they usually do NOT allow it on such lists, and limit your choices to specific options. i was suprised to see no such list attached...

I'm not sure how your Retraining question fits in? You can take 1 AWT at 5th, and then another at 9th.

I don't have access to the armor mastery feats, but I'm guessing those have limits/day which Abundant Tactics could also amplify. Armor Material Mastery sounds eggsellent, from what I remember someone mentioning, especially the upgrade where your armor can count as ANY material...

Also, the FLight Mastery of Item mastery is x/day, and abundant tactics would work with it. It functions with a Str belt!

,,,and I just looked at Weapon Master, since we need AWT feats.
Ugh.
Trades out Armor Mastery and Bravery. So you can't take EITHER of the two effects that use Bravery against mental attacks, and you can't take AA feats.

(_*&()*&*&* Fighters can't have nice things.


I need a second opinion. Can Weapon Mastery feats be taken as general feats, or only as AWT options? I believe it's the former.


Das Bier wrote:
I need a second opinion. Can Weapon Mastery feats be taken as general feats, or only as AWT options? I believe it's the former.

Both

Weapon Master's Handbook wrote:

Although most combat techniques are general enough to

be categorized as combat feats, some require such a high
level of martial skill that they are instead categorized as
weapon mastery feats. Weapon mastery feats count as
combat feats for all purposes, including which classes
can select them as bonus feats, and you gain the benefits
of a weapon mastery feat only while wielding a weapon
that belongs to a fighter weapon group that you have
selected with the fighter weapon training class feature
(referred to hereafter as an “appropriate weapon”), and
any effect of these feats related to attacks applies only
to attacks from such weapons unless the feat specifies
otherwise. Characters who lack the weapon training
class feature can access weapon mastery feats by taking
the Martial Focus feat below.

It has already been established that it can be taken as an Advanced Weapon Training option.

Doable on cue either by Warrior Spirit -> Training Weapon or by Barroom Brawler +Abundant Tactics. At later levels (beyond 5 or 6) he can eventually do both, meaning he can gain two feats simultaneously, and he may or may not have the option to gain multiple Advanced Weapon Training options on the fly. If he invests into both abilities, he can use it 2+double his weapon bonus times per day. One pool for Barroom Brawler (which can be used for prerequisites) and one for Warrior Spirit, which also gives you an enhancement bonus.

Weapon Bonus caps at +6 meaning you end up with 14 uses per day, which is exactly 1 more than a Brawler gets Martial Flexibility, even if it's in a roundabout way.


Utilizing four splatbooks and saying "Yup that is fixed."

Still waiting on a core fix.

Silver Crusade

Scavion wrote:

Utilizing four splatbooks and saying "Yup that is fixed."

Still waiting on a core fix.

So it's like the core monk then?

That's not a bad place to be, but it's not great. Still better than where it was.

Liberty's Edge

It's still pretty frustrating to have to tell a new player looking to play a fighter (or rogue/monk) that you're either going to have to use a number of online resources, or in the case of PFS, own a number of resources, to be able to create a character you're going to enjoy playing, who won't be outclassed by the other adventurers. Especially when they're just trying to get through all the rules in the core rulebook.

It's better if they're highly active on the internet/forums anyway, but I know way too many players that can't fit the time in their busy schedules to read every new supplement, and come to the forums for build advice, and would just like to use their core rulebook to build a character.

If they were to just add advanced weapon training into the next core rulebook printing, a number of my complaints would go away, but that likely won't happen.


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I do feel like it'd be nice of them if they gave you Adaptable Training and Versatile Training as freebies at level 3 and 5 respectively and let you focus on the other stuff for AAT and AWT. I understand that these abilities are apologizing for the fighter's absolutely terrible class skill list and ranks/level, but it seems like an insincere apology when we're still expected to pay for having about as many base skills as an int-dumped Ranger.


N. Jolly wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Utilizing four splatbooks and saying "Yup that is fixed."

Still waiting on a core fix.

So it's like the core monk then?

That's not a bad place to be, but it's not great. Still better than where it was.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhh.

Core Monk has the advantage of a wealth of decent options and directions that can be heavily optimized to great effect.

Fighter, I have some idea of how I would build a "good" Fighter, but I'll be honest... The reliance on combat feats is a downer. Monk levels get you much more interesting options.

So, yes, it's Core Monk, but only in so much as having 0 cost archetypes and a few good archetype options. Nothing at Zen Archer levels of amazing though.


N. Jolly wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Utilizing four splatbooks and saying "Yup that is fixed."

Still waiting on a core fix.

So it's like the core monk then?

That's not a bad place to be, but it's not great. Still better than where it was.

Sorta yeah. Monk has plenty of archetypes that are standalone fixes. Sohei, Zen Archer, Unchained Monk is decent and Qinggong. Master of Many Styles is good too.

Most decent fighter builds require a bunch of different books to amalgamate into something functional.

It's better than nothing but I'm still waiting on something to "Wow" me. 'course I don't have a dog in the battle since my groups have embraced Path of War entirely. =D


Deighton Thrane wrote:

It's still pretty frustrating to have to tell a new player looking to play a fighter (or rogue/monk) that you're either going to have to use a number of online resources, or in the case of PFS, own a number of resources, to be able to create a character you're going to enjoy playing, who won't be outclassed by the other adventurers. Especially when they're just trying to get through all the rules in the core rulebook.

It's better if they're highly active on the internet/forums anyway, but I know way too many players that can't fit the time in their busy schedules to read every new supplement, and come to the forums for build advice, and would just like to use their core rulebook to build a character.

If they were to just add advanced weapon training into the next core rulebook printing, a number of my complaints would go away, but that likely won't happen.

For a new player not much is going to make their characters better because they're new. They can go for the most powerful classes in the game and it won't matter much. And if they are all new then the classes are mostly even as far as I can tell at my tables and when I ran PFS a while back.


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My first thought on seeing this thread title: "There will probably be new fighter threads until the heat death of the universe".

I don't think you can ever really "resolve" this issue, since I have yet to see any consensus on what exactly needs to be done to "fix" the fighter. Everyone has their own personal ideas of what needs to be done and how extensive a change is required, many of which are influenced by the diverse sets of playstyles. Plus fighter issues are inherently embedded in the caster-martial disparity, which can only be resolved with a new edition of the game. And when and how you do a new edition is itself it's own tangled ball of disagreements and strife.

I tend to think the fighter is in a far more better place than it was a few years ago, and for many groups things like combat stamina, new skill stuff, and the recent player companion options probably have fixed fighters. Some people probably never will be happy short of a top down complete redesign of the game.


MMCJawa wrote:

My first thought on seeing this thread title: "There will probably be new fighter threads until the heat death of the universe".

I don't think you can ever really "resolve" this issue, since I have yet to see any consensus on what exactly needs to be done to "fix" the fighter. Everyone has their own personal ideas of what needs to be done and how extensive a change is required, many of which are influenced by the diverse sets of playstyles. Plus fighter issues are inherently embedded in the caster-martial disparity, which can only be resolved with a new edition of the game. And when and how you do a new edition is itself it's own tangled ball of disagreements and strife.

I tend to think the fighter is in a far more better place than it was a few years ago, and for many groups things like combat stamina, new skill stuff, and the recent player companion options probably have fixed fighters. Some people probably never will be happy short of a top down complete redesign of the game.

This sums it up pretty good.

The title is meant to imply that we no longer need to complain about the fighter class itself.


Of course we can. The fact is, these options should all be a part of the core fighter class, not something he has to spend his feats on.

He's still underpowered, underskilled and lacking flexibility options in all the needed ways.

Trying to even think about how to level a fighter to take advantage of these 'key' options is making my head spin with what he has to give up.

Hey Barbarian! I see you got Beast Totem! you need to give up all your DR for that!
Oh and you took Superstitious? Kewl! No more Greater Rage for you!

Oh, you wanted Pounce! Great Choice! Give up your Uncanny Dodge, now!

etc etc etc. IF any other class had to give up their class features to get decent, scaling abilities, there'd be a revolt.

Hey Mr. Paladin, I see you're taking Fey Foundling. that's wonderful, great feat for paladins. Your Smite is now restricted to +Cha in damage, maximum.
You want Unsanctioned Knowledge? Great feat for a paladin! Your Sword or Mount bond is now figured at half your level.
You want Channel Smite? Thumbs up, great feat! Your Lay On Hands is treated as half your level.

etc etc.

Freaking double standards. WHY is it so bloody hard to just write a feat using Fighter class features as pre-reqs and just LET THEM HAVE IT?!? Because WEAPON SPECIALIZATION IS THE STANDARD?!?

()*&()*&)(

Scarab Sages

As long as there are "extra rage power" feats then it is perfectly in line for a fighter to spend feats on advanced weapon training. Likewise, if after weapon training 1 you just got advanced weapon training every four levels, and one of the AWT options was a second weapon training group, I doubt it would be very popular.

AWT is the best thing to happen to the fighter class since gloves of dueling.


You can spend a general feat to gain more Rage Powers.

To gain more AWT feats, you have to give up being a compentent switch hitter, among other things. And on off levels, spend a general feat instead of a combat feat, it you want them now!

Yes, finally, they came out with abilities tied to class features for Fighters...and then massively restricted them. Oh, just too good for the fighter, I guess. Can't let him actually have many of these!


Das Bier wrote:
To gain more AWT feats, you have to give up being a compentent switch hitter, among other things.

On this point, giving up Weapon training on the backup bow doesn't really negate being a switch hitter.

At worst one could specialize in throwing weapons that also work in melee


For me, a big design issue with fighter design - and one that tends to impact archetypes - is that it has no new features between levels 5 and 19. Yes, some of the core ones progress, but unlike,say, the monk or rogue it has fairly few things it can trade, and Paizo has by and large shied away from archetypes just costing bonus feats (with a few exceptions like the eldritch guardian). One of the base features - bravery - is pretty underwhelming as stated (a trait gives you the equivalent of bravery on level 9 - can you say the same for,say, stern gaze), so in trades it is not worth much.

I have toyed with ideas about "improving" the fighter as the default weaponmaster/maneuver specialist, just ouf ot curiosity. However, until it gets a serious remake it is likely to continue to have issues. Yes, there have been a few stealth fixes, but there is a problem with the core chassis .


The issue with these "improvements" is that they are designing it in a way that it's supposed to be a meaningful choice to do one over the other and not having one be auto select. This is the same for archetypes, they need to power down any archetype for fighter so that it doesn't replace the original. That's why the child of A@A compared to the bloodrager seems like such a joke, because it can't seem better than the original, just a sidegrade. And since the base is so low there's not much to work with.

Scarab Sages

Entryhazard wrote:
Das Bier wrote:
To gain more AWT feats, you have to give up being a compentent switch hitter, among other things.

On this point, giving up Weapon training on the backup bow doesn't really negate being a switch hitter.

At worst one could specialize in throwing weapons that also work in melee

Or just take point blank master (or empty quiver style), and use the bow in melee.


Fighter either needs an unchained version of itself, or the release of unchained feats. Combat Stamina helped, but really the feats need to be upped at their baseline to allow better builds. Feat chains need to work with eachother by empowering the previous feats and providing new viable options. Right now they do one or the other. Weapon specialization makes weapon focus more powerful because your added accuracy now hits harder, but it doesn't add anything new you can do with a weapon. Whirlwind Attack gives you a new option in combat, but it doesn't work with spring attack, mobility, or dodge. We need feats that give a new option and increase the benefits of the prerequisites (like if WA gave a speed boost when you spring attack, or if weapon specialization made combat maneuvers with the chosen weapon no longer provoke).

Alternatively, an unchained fighter could tack on AWT without giving anything up, as well as AAT, and both options could be buffed without it unbalancing anything. Heck, some could just be straight up class features without you having to spend talents on them (IMO, Armed Bravery should just be how bravery works, and quick donning while not powerful should just be something all fighters have). Either one of these fixes, however, can not be introduced in a splatbook if they are to truly fix the class. It would need to be an RPG line book to be expansive enough to fit perfectly.

But for now, fighter can work for a while. Enough band-aids Adhesive Medical Strips exist to make it worth comparing at least until the next fighter-friendly hardback book is on Paizo's to do list


Maybe the starfinder will have a competent fighter-like class that we can use in pathfinder.

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