People are aware that this feat becomes worthless the moment you can afford an Animated Shield, correct?Animated shields eat up an action and +2 enhancement bonus. of the two, the move action cost is equals a round not attacking. If combat lasts more than 4 rounds, the cost to action economy increases.
Hm, I never realized how terrible it was. So the feat is probably worth taking.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If people are this worried about the feat, just forbid it from being used with 2-handed weapons. Or ban it in your game...
Don't try to get it nerfed/ruined for everyone else.
Why does this logic only apply one way?
I'm not going to try to barge into your house and force you to ban it in your home game.
Because when something banned, this ends up applying to all future related material, so it still affects those who like that option. OTOH, if something is allowed, you can ban/nerf it without problem and no one loses anything.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think you will find a great many GM's unwilling to buy this set of actions "Okay, at the beginning of the round, I put my shield away, automatically, before ANYTHING else I may declare. Then I take whatever actions I take, and at the very end of the round I quickdraw my shield. I do this every round of combat unless I say otherwise."
Blame whoever wrote the item, but thats how it works, there are also dms who disagree with some ridiculous spells so what then. Heck, there are dms who say that rogues are overpowered
Sword and Board users use a shield, and a one handed weapon, they make the tradeoff of AC for damage. Spell Combat makes the trade off of casting for shield AC. TWF makes the tradeoff of more attacks with matched weapons that do more dmg for Shield AC.
Explain why a sword and board user cant use two weapon fighting.
Shield Bashing is a STUPID attack form.
Never mind
Shield Master, the feat, only exists to reduce the gold cost of having your shield be a level-appropriate inferior weapon. Very tellingly, it doesn't reduce the TH penalty to your MAIN, superior weapon, but to your inferior weapon.
It also removes of twf penalties, so there is that
Also on a note there are stuff the armor master's handbook for people who want to do sword and board and not bash, and also stuff like tripping on a bash for free, or getting a free bash when they miss you (this in WMH), so crying for sword and board is just childlish
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nah, he'll still want the option to bash opponents into the wizards pits/Stinking Cloud/walls.And actually, the Viking Archetype allows exactly what you describe (Beast Totem + Fighter). For reference.So as I thought another comparison of class features with feats. Viking archetype, loses weapon training, armor training, and gains rage. Basically it's cross-breed between barbarian and fighter, and this is distinctive ARCHETYPE, not some feat that every fighter can have.Given that my other two points actually address the complaint you made, and this one was more of an amusing aside, I'm very interested in the fact that you only responded to this one.
Indeed, given that cherry picking what to respond to seems to be a pattern with you (which is why I'm responding after all this time) I don't think debate with you is gonna be productive, and will not be engaging in it any more. I advise others to do the same.
Current group has a two-weapon fighting sword & board Viking. Picking up Unhindered Shield is literally only a single feat alteration to his build.
The benefit: he get us use a much better weapon in his off hand.
I'm assuming he's going to get rid of Imp Shield Bash and Shield Master, pick up Shield Focus and Unhindered.
So, he's got all the AC, and all the attack power, full convergence with class ability...yeah, he's done nothing but go up in power. No more needing to shield bash!
(Less important to Vikings who Rage and don't use WM, unless he's using Weapon Spec)==Aelryinth
This Shield Slam makes Shield Bashing an awesome style on it's own.
The control options it brings to the game are outstanding, and it's on every hit.
I would never take unhindered on a Sword and Board character, because it locks you out of shield bashing. The only use I would have for it is to make a monk with shield, which I have wanted for a very long time.
Thing is, not every build would care to throw the 2-3 feats needed to get this to start up and the gold to get it really good, maybe at levels 15+ if they have run out of other choices. I don't believe everyone that can will, unlike divine protection. This is a nice way to boost AC if you're looking to get it higher. But I don't think it's mandatory for all classes to now take this feat or suffer being outclassed.
'Not every build will use it' is not a very good argument. 'It's extremely powerful for the builds that DO use it,' is more appropriate. People can always take less powerful options. That doesn't obviate the fact it IS a powerful option.
And if you want to compare a couple of guys going at it, one with a +6 AC bonus over the other one, I know who's probably going to win.
==Aelryinth
Because when something banned or nerfed, this ends up applying to all future related material, so it still affects those who like that option. OTOH, if something is allowed, you can ban/nerf it without problem and no one loses anything.If people are this worried about the feat, just forbid it from being used with 2-handed weapons. Or ban it in your game...
Don't try to get it nerfed/ruined for everyone else.
Why does this logic only apply one way?
I'm not going to try to barge into your house and force you to ban it in your home game.
If you play PFS, it affects you. You don't get the option to opt out.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And if you want to compare a couple of guys going at it, one with a +6 AC bonus over the other one, I know who's probably going to win.
==Aelryinth
Only if the one without the AC bonus is stupid. It's take one round of wasted attacks, and then they will switch to something that doesn't target AC. Either grapple, sunder the shield, pull out a touch ac weapon, or or so on.
If someone brings rock, you don't play scissors.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you play PFS, it affects you. You don't get the option to opt out.Because when something banned or nerfed, this ends up applying to all future related material, so it still affects those who like that option. OTOH, if something is allowed, you can ban/nerf it without problem and no one loses anything.If people are this worried about the feat, just forbid it from being used with 2-handed weapons. Or ban it in your game...
Don't try to get it nerfed/ruined for everyone else.
Why does this logic only apply one way?
I'm not going to try to barge into your house and force you to ban it in your home game.
That's one of the reasons I dislike PFS. Either way... Their directors/managers can choose to ban the feat anyway... There are plenty of balanced options that banned in PFS for whatever reason.
Aye, that's a good tactic at low levels against humanoids. And now yet more feat investment in fighting with a shield so you can get a decent outcome from a bash. :P
There was a 3.5 feat that did the same thing if you hit someone for 20 or more damage. I forget who had this great build called the Pinball Brothers that would literally send enemies flying in every direction when they attacked, smashing them into walls for excellent damage after already doing major damage to them.
But Bull Rush has the same problem as trip...getting past the CMD (which here is penalized by off hand weapon) and you can't Bull Rush anything Huge or bigger (thus requiring spells or its a wasted feat). And to be successful at it, you need to be really good at it. It becomes less and less useful as you level.
BTW, do you allow your Vikings to get Improved Rage at 13th level? I always thought it auto scaled, but people are saying no.
==Aelryinth
And if you want to compare a couple of guys going at it, one with a +6 AC bonus over the other one, I know who's probably going to win.
==Aelryinth
Only if the one without the AC bonus is stupid. It's take one round of wasted attacks, and then they will switch to something that doesn't target AC. Either grapple, sunder the shield, pull out a touch ac weapon, or or so on.
If someone brings rock, you don't play scissors.
Which is only applicable if you have the options available to do so, and the choice in the matter. Suddenly all the melee monsters in the world only using Touch Attacks looks pretty stupid, or suddenly gaining spellcasting powers? It just isn't an option.
And AOTBE, the other person will have the same options and prevent you from using them, or punish you when you try. Remember, he gets his shield AC pulling out a ranged weapon on you, too. And shields can be enhanced against Sundering, against Touch Attacks, and against bullets and rays. It doesn't even take much.
==Aelryinth
I think you will find a great many GM's unwilling to buy this set of actions "Okay, at the beginning of the round, I put my shield away, automatically, before ANYTHING else I may declare. Then I take whatever actions I take, and at the very end of the round I quickdraw my shield. I do this every round of combat unless I say otherwise."Blame whoever wrote the item, but thats how it works, there are also dms who disagree with some ridiculous spells so what then. Heck, there are dms who say that rogues are overpowered
Sword and Board users use a shield, and a one handed weapon, they make the tradeoff of AC for damage. Spell Combat makes the trade off of casting for shield AC. TWF makes the tradeoff of more attacks with matched weapons that do more dmg for Shield AC.
Explain why a sword and board user cant use two weapon fighting.
Shield Bashing is a STUPID attack form.Never mind
Shield Master, the feat, only exists to reduce the gold cost of having your shield be a level-appropriate inferior weapon. Very tellingly, it doesn't reduce the TH penalty to your MAIN, superior weapon, but to your inferior weapon.It also removes of twf penalties, so there is that
Also on a note there are stuff the armor master's handbook for people who want to do sword and board and not bash, and also stuff like tripping on a bash for free, or getting a free bash when they miss you (this in WMH), so crying for sword and board is just childlish
You missed every single point being made.
Feat cost of TWF.
Feat cost of Shield use.
Feat cost of Shield Bash.
Huge feat investment, just trying to bring Sword and Board back on par with other attack styles. You're basically TWF+2 feats (ISB and SM), + any others like Shield Slam and whatnot that you want.
Oh and Power Attack.
You take 3-4 feats MORE then a TWF, and 6-7 more then a 2h'er. Like, ugh.
And shield mastery, AS I NOTED, removes the penalty for the SHIELD, not for your main weapon.
Shield users MUST use TWF if they want to overcome the damage gap. Whereas a TWF just uses TWF...with better weapons that can actually match, so feats and class features can synergize.
using the shield becomes pretty much the whole of your feat investment, which doesn't leave a whole lot to do other things.
And you STILL don't do 2h'er damage, and 2h'ers CAN do all those other things, because they've got the feats free to do it.
mechanically, it's a dumb style to use, simply because of the opportunity costs.
But man, that shield AC was nice. Hacky McHacker gets chopped to bits, and I just wear them down. Not any more.
==Aelryinth
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And shield mastery, AS I NOTED, removes the penalty for the SHIELD, not for your main weapon.
What we keep saying and you aren't grasping is that if you are using shield mastery, the shield is your main weapon.
Shields have more ways to raise the base damage of the weapon than any other weapon. It's one of three weapons that allow a trait bonus to damage. TWF two shields or even THF with one shield is a very strong combat style. Even if you use two different weapons, the heavy shield is your main hand and a kukri is your off-hand, just because the off hand crits will proc more bashing finish attempts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like people are approaching this the wrong way.
As opposed to looking at the balance of the feat across the entire RPG line, Martial vs Caster and all that, the feat should be examined with an eye to internal balance within Martial classes alone.
Most people tend to agree that both Two-Handed builds and Two-Weapon builds trump Sword and Board builds and this feat removes the downsides of the former builds while replacing the benefits the latter build had over the other two.
The question then becomes do other feats in the book help push the Sword and Board build just as Unhindered Shield benefits the other two.
|
|
Another competitor to using the quick draw shield is to simply two-hand the shield. Shields are one-handed weapons, and thus they can be wielded with two hands. Other than the poor crit profile, they are quite effective and allow all of the power attack bonuses while still allowing the full shield AC, without needing any feat beyond improved shield bash.
And shield mastery, AS I NOTED, removes the penalty for the SHIELD, not for your main weapon.What we keep saying and you aren't grasping is that if you are using shield mastery, the shield is your main weapon.
Shields have more ways to raise the base damage of the weapon than any other weapon. It's one of three weapons that allow a trait bonus to damage. TWF two shields or even THF with one shield is a very strong combat style. Even if you use two different weapons, the heavy shield is your main hand and a kukri is your off-hand, just because the off hand crits will proc more bashing finish attempts.
Uh, no.
Very few people actually fight Board and Board. And I've been talking Sword and Board, and so you are trying to move the goalposts.
THe intended effect of Shield Master is to a) make it so you don't have to enchant your Shield as a Weapon so you can use it and b) able to use it to bash more effectively, giving you a +2 to hit. If you get a full attack.
And yeah, all those options to raise the shield's damage are like weapon spec, sucking away feats, traits and money just to try and get the shield to be equal to a standard longsword.
They are there just like all the other feats, to try to bring the shield up to par as a weapon...but they cost you in the doing.
Long feat trees suck, and everything you need to do to make Sword and Board viable? It's a huge sunk cost. And now you don't even get the AC over other builds to justify it.
===Aelryinth
Another competitor to using the quick draw shield is to simply two-hand the shield. Shields are one-handed weapons, and thus they can be wielded with two hands. Other than the poor crit profile, they are quite effective and allow all of the power attack bonuses while still allowing the full shield AC, without needing any feat beyond improved shield bash.
Yessss...
But now you're 2h'ing a d4 20/x2 weapon, and spending a feat to keep the AC.
When you could be wielding a 2-12 19-20/x2 Weapon, spending a feat, and keeping the AC.
In other words, you're a dumb 2h'er, now.
Or you can spike it, made it d6 piercing. Or +1 Bashing, making it a d8. So you've invested money and maybe a trait to make it still inferior to a simple Greatsword, or even a normal longsword.
meh. I mean, sure, if you want to do it, you can go right ahead. Everyone is allowed to make subpar choices if they want to. But subpar is subpar, however you want to spin it.
==Aelryinth
From a book called "Armour Master's Handbook", I expect a certain degree of power creep.
However, there's more than one variable in power creep. There's magnitude, but there's also direction.It's already acknowledged that Unhindered Shield gives an unparalleled amount of AC for the cost of one feat (maybe two). The other competitors that were raised are:
- Quick drawing a Quick draw light shield -> Some GMs have issue with the number of available free actions.
- Animated Shield -> Poor action economy
- Somehow casting 'Shield' spell -> Poor action economy, especially when you don't see a fight comingPower creep magnitude violation of Unhindered Shield aside, I want to also take a look at the direction of power creep from this feat.
Believers of Martial / Caster disparity want more ways for Martials to be involved in the storytelling of the game. This feat only raises Defense, so the direction is not aligned with these interests.
Believers of balance between different combat styles want each combat style to have its own niche. This feat lets every combat style ALSO be a sword-and-board combat style. It doesn't introduce a new niche. It kind of steals niche instead. The direction is not aligned with these interests either.
In summary, the power creep magnitude violates existing options that raise Defense. The power creep direction violates balance between combat styles. Thus, I personally side with "Unhindered Shield feat is Too Good".
Well said!
==Aelryinth
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If someone brings rock, you don't play scissors.That would work a lot better if most classes toolsets gave you a rock, a paper , and scissors, instead of just giving you bigger and bigger scissors.
Ooh, let's count!
Including Ninja and Samurai, I come up with 37 core classes in the game. Of those, 8 have no built-in spellcasting, UMD, or ability to target non AC/CMD defenses. Soooo... Really, most classes do give you rock, paper, and scissors, it's the barbarian, fighter, monk, brawler, slayer, swashbuckler, cavalier, and samurai (and I hesitate to include the monk given that he has Stunning Fist, Qinggong, and other options available) who are the minority, particularly from 5th level on. Their compensation, generally, is that while they don't get paper or scissors, they do get fairly sizable rocks. That's the theory anyway.Personally, I think the core Fighter has long been woefully underpowered and underserved, and the core of that issue is that feats themselves are woefully underpowered when stacked against the class features available to other classes. The barbarian has long had Beast Totem, which he can grab for a feat (Extra Rage), and is worth +6 slotless AC by 20th level. This stacks with most other AC boosters, including the Amulet of Natural Armor. Magii have long had the shield spell and the ability to cast it without meaningfully impacting their action economy, ninjas have their own various ways to simulate invisibility and mirror image (in my opinion, superior defensive selections to most AC boosting options), rangers have barkskin (doesn't stack with AoNA, but frees the neck slot for something else), etc.
Frankly, there should be more feats that are as good as class features, not fewer. I'd say "just make it Fighter specific", but that ship sailed when they started giving out Fighter equivalent levels like candy, further devaluing the class.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another competitor to using the quick draw shield is to simply two-hand the shield. Shields are one-handed weapons, and thus they can be wielded with two hands. Other than the poor crit profile, they are quite effective and allow all of the power attack bonuses while still allowing the full shield AC, without needing any feat beyond improved shield bash.Yessss...
But now you're 2h'ing a d4 20/x2 weapon, and spending a feat to keep the AC.
When you could be wielding a 2-12 19-20/x2 Weapon, spending a feat, and keeping the AC.
In other words, you're a dumb 2h'er, now.
Or you can spike it, made it d6 piercing. Or +1 Bashing, making it a d8. So you've invested money and maybe a trait to make it still inferior to a simple Greatsword, or even a normal longsword.
meh. I mean, sure, if you want to do it, you can go right ahead. Everyone is allowed to make subpar choices if they want to. But subpar is subpar, however you want to spin it.
==Aelryinth
I feel like you're dismissing the benefits of wealth saved and feats consolidated here, not to mention the classes that can effectively combine two-handing a shield with a full TWF equivalent attack sequence, like the Brawler (who may not get the +1/2 STR bonus but still gets modified PA and other benefits). Even the lowly Fighter would benefit from being able to focus all of his feats and abilities into the shield, rather than having to support a primary offensive weapon and the shield separately.
Another competitor to using the quick draw shield is to simply two-hand the shield. Shields are one-handed weapons, and thus they can be wielded with two hands. Other than the poor crit profile, they are quite effective and allow all of the power attack bonuses while still allowing the full shield AC, without needing any feat beyond improved shield bash.Yessss...
But now you're 2h'ing a d4 20/x2 weapon, and spending a feat to keep the AC.
When you could be wielding a 2-12 19-20/x2 Weapon, spending a feat, and keeping the AC.
In other words, you're a dumb 2h'er, now.
Or you can spike it, made it d6 piercing. Or +1 Bashing, making it a d8. So you've invested money and maybe a trait to make it still inferior to a simple Greatsword, or even a normal longsword.
meh. I mean, sure, if you want to do it, you can go right ahead. Everyone is allowed to make subpar choices if they want to. But subpar is subpar, however you want to spin it.
==Aelryinth
There's a Gorum feat that lets you take heavy shields as light weapon. Grab oversized shields, and you get a 2d6 after stacking it all. Fighters can pick up Focused Weapon Advanced Weapon Training choice, which by level 11 would give the heavy shield a 1d10 baseline, which gets bumped up to 4d8, or 3d8 if the Gorum trait feels like cheese. And because Shield Master, the penalties get all skipped.
And shield mastery, AS I NOTED, removes the penalty for the SHIELD, not for your main weapon.What we keep saying and you aren't grasping is that if you are using shield mastery, the shield is your main weapon.
Shields have more ways to raise the base damage of the weapon than any other weapon. It's one of three weapons that allow a trait bonus to damage. TWF two shields or even THF with one shield is a very strong combat style. Even if you use two different weapons, the heavy shield is your main hand and a kukri is your off-hand, just because the off hand crits will proc more bashing finish attempts.
Can confirm, even the NPCs recognize my Klar is the real threat.
yes, but if you use that hand to cast a spell then you're losing the AC bonus the buckler is giving you. This feat lets you keep the buckler's AC always.
If the feat says the buckler does not take a hand then why does it even have to be on the casting hand? Could it not be on the same hand as the weapon? It strap to a forearm.
I feel like you're dismissing the benefits of wealth saved and feats consolidated here, not to mention the classes that can effectively combine two-handing a shield with a full TWF equivalent attack sequence, like the Brawler (who may not get the +1/2 STR bonus but still gets modified PA and other benefits). Even the lowly Fighter would benefit from being able to focus all of his feats and abilities into the shield, rather than having to support a primary offensive weapon and the shield separately.Another competitor to using the quick draw shield is to simply two-hand the shield. Shields are one-handed weapons, and thus they can be wielded with two hands. Other than the poor crit profile, they are quite effective and allow all of the power attack bonuses while still allowing the full shield AC, without needing any feat beyond improved shield bash.Yessss...
But now you're 2h'ing a d4 20/x2 weapon, and spending a feat to keep the AC.
When you could be wielding a 2-12 19-20/x2 Weapon, spending a feat, and keeping the AC.
In other words, you're a dumb 2h'er, now.
Or you can spike it, made it d6 piercing. Or +1 Bashing, making it a d8. So you've invested money and maybe a trait to make it still inferior to a simple Greatsword, or even a normal longsword.
meh. I mean, sure, if you want to do it, you can go right ahead. Everyone is allowed to make subpar choices if they want to. But subpar is subpar, however you want to spin it.
==Aelryinth
What money are you saving?
Are you NOT going to enchant your shield as a weapon? Sure, Shield Mastery means you don't have to...It also means you can make a +1/+9 Shield, or make it a +5 Defender Guardian for even more defensive fun.
If you just keep it a shield, with no Weapon on it...sure, you're saving money. It's also not going to have anywhere near the attacking power of a +5 Furious Holy Flaming Thundering weapon, or whatnot.
So, the 'cost savings' aren't really there. And then we have the guy who says to take a Gorum only feat and grab oversized shields. Okaaaaay...I don't think an oversized shield is a light shield.
Aaaaand I don't believe bashing or spikes will stack with the sacred weapon damage increase, because of the new virtual damage rules. Virtual damage increases overlap, they don't stack.
It also means you've devoted 2 feats just to try and keep the damage at the equal of a Greatsword, when you could just use a Greatsword and have 2 feats to spare, while being able to get to 6-36 with a size change and Lead Weapon.
And the feat costs for a shield guy to be good with a shield, TWF, and 2h'ing. Ugh. Massive investment. Makes an archer look cheap.
The investment is why it's dumb. The payoff was great defense for the cost and lack of damage output.
And now, the cost for the same level of defense is cheap, and you can keep the high damage output. Meh.
I love sword and board, paizo is just VERY unfriendly to it.
==Aelryinth
You know what. This feat actually made me intressted in making a Sword and Board character. Now it doesn't have to suck anymore. Spending gold on a shield doesn't have to result in only avoiding up to 30% more attacks while also dealing significantly less damage, compared to a regular 2-Hander. (EDIT: Assuming I'm not after a Shield Basher as well)
Which means you're now a 2h'er with a shield. COngrats.
==Aelryinth
|
|
Another competitor to using the quick draw shield is to simply two-hand the shield. Shields are one-handed weapons, and thus they can be wielded with two hands. Other than the poor crit profile, they are quite effective and allow all of the power attack bonuses while still allowing the full shield AC, without needing any feat beyond improved shield bash.Yessss...
But now you're 2h'ing a d4 20/x2 weapon, and spending a feat to keep the AC.
When you could be wielding a 2-12 19-20/x2 Weapon, spending a feat, and keeping the AC.
In other words, you're a dumb 2h'er, now.
Or you can spike it, made it d6 piercing. Or +1 Bashing, making it a d8. So you've invested money and maybe a trait to make it still inferior to a simple Greatsword, or even a normal longsword.
meh. I mean, sure, if you want to do it, you can go right ahead. Everyone is allowed to make subpar choices if they want to. But subpar is subpar, however you want to spin it.
==Aelryinth
Or Spiked Bashing for 2d6. OR Brawler Close Combat Mastery, Or Warprist/Fighter Sacred Weapon. Or Swashbuckler/Daring Champion Precise Strike Deed.
It's been said many times in this thread, the only thing subpar about a shield's damage is the crit profile, and the AC makes up for that.
|
|
Only with houserules.
Or Spiked Bashing for 2d6.
Or by using the precedent in the NPC codex. I know that the FAQ technically invalidates it as the CRB defines shield spikes as a virtual size increase. I still reject that they are, and instead are a new weapon.
And shield mastery, AS I NOTED, removes the penalty for the SHIELD, not for your main weapon.What we keep saying and you aren't grasping is that if you are using shield mastery, the shield is your main weapon.
Shields have more ways to raise the base damage of the weapon than any other weapon. It's one of three weapons that allow a trait bonus to damage. TWF two shields or even THF with one shield is a very strong combat style. Even if you use two different weapons, the heavy shield is your main hand and a kukri is your off-hand, just because the off hand crits will proc more bashing finish attempts.
Completely off-topic, but there are now more than three weapons that can get a +1 trait bonus to damage.
- Shield Bearer (race): Shield.
- River Rat (region): Dagger.
- Quain Martial Artist (region): Unarmed Strike.
- Monk Weapon Skill (combat): Any one Monk weapon other than Unarmed Strike.
- Weapon Training (race): Bastard Sword, Battleaxe, Greataxe, Greatsword, Handaxe, Light Hammer, Longbow, Longsword, Shortbow, Short Sword, Throwing Axe, and Warhammer.
Gods below, that weapon training is too good for a trait. +1 with one weapon, fine. It's half of weapon specialization, or half a feat. +1 with 12 weapons is worth 6 feats. Especially since while shield bashes, daggers, and unarmed strikes are weak, those are some of the best weapons in the game.
Eh, weapon switching is terribly unlikely because of weapon-locked feats, the fact that ranged has a min 2-feat tax so you either focus ranged or focus melee, focus 2handed or 1handed TWF, plus the expense of keeping up-to-par magic weapons means that at most you're getting it on two weapon types for all effective purposes.
Only with houserules.
Or Spiked Bashing for 2d6.
Spiked shield, heavy|special|1d4|1d6|×2|—|special|P|-|RG:CRB
Not according to the weapons table.
|
|
Gods below, that weapon training is too good for a trait. +1 with one weapon, fine. It's half of weapon specialization, or half a feat. +1 with 12 weapons is worth 6 feats. Especially since while shield bashes, daggers, and unarmed strikes are weak, those are some of the best weapons in the game.Eh, weapon switching is terribly unlikely because of weapon-locked feats, the fact that ranged has a min 2-feat tax so you either focus ranged or focus melee, focus 2handed or 1handed TWF, plus the expense of keeping up-to-par magic weapons means that at most you're getting it on two weapon types for all effective purposes.
Most characters have a main melee weapon, a backup melee weapon that can be thown or used in a grapple, and a ranged weapon.
This trait gives a damage bonus with two of the most common two-handed weapons, a light thrown weapon with the hand axe and light hammer, and with longbows. When other damage boosting traits, you are stuck with a single weapon, so there will be times it will not apply.
This will apply to every weapon damage roll a character would ever need to make.
|
|
Feat cost of TWF.
Feat cost of Shield use.
Feat cost of Shield Bash.Huge feat investment, just trying to bring Sword and Board back on par with other attack styles. You're basically TWF+2 feats (ISB and SM), + any others like Shield Slam and whatnot that you want.
Oh and Power Attack.You take 3-4 feats MORE then a TWF, and 6-7 more then a 2h'er. Like, ugh.
Compare it to an unhidered shield two weapon fighter
Feat cost of TWF.
Feat cost of Buckler use.
Feat cost of Unhindered Shield.
And no, you dont need shield master, you can already enchant your shield spikes as a weapon, which has exactly the same cost as enchanting a second weapon as in normal TWF
Also I set there buckler prof, because you typed shield proficiency, personally i don think that should even count.
like i said before, the number of feats for twf fighter and unhinderd two weapon fighter is exactly the same
The Bashing enchantment increases a shield's damage by two size categories.Only with houserules.
Or Spiked Bashing for 2d6.Spiked shield, heavy|special|1d4|1d6|×2|—|special|P|—|RG:CRBNot according to the weapons table.
Correct: spiked shield, heavy
- 1d6 → 1d8 → 2d6
Not a house rule.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gods below, that weapon training is too good for a trait. +1 with one weapon, fine. It's half of weapon specialization, or half a feat. +1 with 12 weapons is worth 6 feats. Especially since while shield bashes, daggers, and unarmed strikes are weak, those are some of the best weapons in the game.Eh, weapon switching is terribly unlikely because of weapon-locked feats, the fact that ranged has a min 2-feat tax so you either focus ranged or focus melee, focus 2handed or 1handed TWF, plus the expense of keeping up-to-par magic weapons means that at most you're getting it on two weapon types for all effective purposes.Most characters have a main melee weapon, a backup melee weapon that can be thown or used in a grapple, and a ranged weapon.
This trait gives a damage bonus with two of the most common two-handed weapons, a light thrown weapon with the hand axe and light hammer, and with longbows. When other damage boosting traits, you are stuck with a single weapon, so there will be times it will not apply.
This will apply to every weapon damage roll a character would ever need to make.
But does this mean that this trait is strong, or that the other traits are too weak?
|
The Bashing enchantment increases a shield's damage by two size categories.Only with houserules.
Or Spiked Bashing for 2d6.Spiked shield, heavy|special|1d4|1d6|×2|—|special|P|—|RG:CRBNot according to the weapons table.Correct: spiked shield, heavy
- 1d6 → 1d8 → 2d6
Not a house rule.
Oh, my apologies Snowlily, I thought you were disagreeing with the 2d6 damage, my bad :3
|
|
The house rule is saying that a shield spike is not an effective size increase to shield damage similar to the bashing property so that they will stack. As it stands they're the same kind of effect, so only the greater, aka bashing, would apply.
- 1d6 → 1d8 → 2d6
Not a house rule.
Only a house rule to use the published intent of spiked shields, as shown in the NPC Codex with the 19th level Dwarf Barbarian using a Spiked Bashing Shield doing 2d6.
This is a case where using the cut and past badly written description of shield spikes in 3.5 makes them function as a virtual size increase when they are clearly not. Adding spikes to a club changes the damage from 1d6 to 1d8, just as if it increased one size step, but it is not a virtual size increase it is a new weapon, the morningstar. Likewise, while a spiked shield does damage as if it were a size larger, it is not a size increase.
The FAQ was to prevent Improved Natural Attack and Strong Jaw from stacking. Spiked Shields are an unintended consequence of the poor writing in the CRB.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, the nerfing of shield damage WAS an intended effect of the ruling. I know JJ thought the idea of H Shields doing 2-12 dmg was out of place, but he isn't on the rules team. But the devs when questioned on it just referred back to the shield spikes description, and there it all ended.
If they didnt' want them to stack, all they had to say was "A Spiked Shield is its own entry" and they were done. Feh.
==Aelryinth
Gods below, that weapon training is too good for a trait. +1 with one weapon, fine. It's half of weapon specialization, or half a feat. +1 with 12 weapons is worth 6 feats. Especially since while shield bashes, daggers, and unarmed strikes are weak, those are some of the best weapons in the game.Eh, weapon switching is terribly unlikely because of weapon-locked feats, the fact that ranged has a min 2-feat tax so you either focus ranged or focus melee, focus 2handed or 1handed TWF, plus the expense of keeping up-to-par magic weapons means that at most you're getting it on two weapon types for all effective purposes.Most characters have a main melee weapon, a backup melee weapon that can be thown or used in a grapple, and a ranged weapon.
This trait gives a damage bonus with two of the most common two-handed weapons, a light thrown weapon with the hand axe and light hammer, and with longbows. When other damage boosting traits, you are stuck with a single weapon, so there will be times it will not apply.
This will apply to every weapon damage roll a character would ever need to make.
Weapon Specialization's been often criticized for being considerably limited in its range of benefit, namely of +2 to a single weapon. And as you've stated, the other two weapons are generally backups, and as such will likely be less powerful in damage output. The trait does exactly the following: 1/2 Weapon Spec damage for your main weapon, and a small boost on your backup (and likely weaker) weapon. It's not a DPR increase over 1/2 Weapon Spec, but a bonus to a martial's combat versatility, which is something they dearly need.
I personally am of the opinion that if you are a specialist in a weapon, it's because you want to be the master of THAT weapon, not lots of weapons.
So, I don't have a problem with weapon spec, per se...I have a problem with the fact the feat chain is 4 feats long, and not just one feat per weapon.
Also, if you're a TWF, you should be able to name your style (sword and board, sword and dagger, hammer and axe, whatever), and as long as you are fighting in that style, your off hand should get the same bonuses as your primary.
Opens up interesting styles instead of TWF with non-matching weapons being Stoopid.
Oh, and Tuv, 'martials' don't have the problem. Fighters do. ;D All the other martial classes are not weapon centered.
===Aelryinth
Unhindered Shield is flat out better then Sword and Board in costs.
The cost of using the buckler is:
Shield Focus (for non-fighters)
Unhindered Shield
resulting in +1 Shield AC and being able to treat your Shield AC as if the buckler is not there.
YOu can now use a 2h weapon.
You can TWF with matching weapons.
You can use a one handed fighting style freely.
You can use Spell Combat in the off hand.
You can use a bow, crossbow, thrown weapon, etc, and keep the AC.
Sword and Board requires:
Improved Shield Bash (so you can keep the Shield AC when attacking)
Shield Slam (pre-req for Shield Master, unless Ranger)
TWF (pre req for Shield Master, unless Ranger)
Shield Master (12th level, unless Ranger)
Weapon Enhance +1 Bashing (to get d3 or d4 to increase to d6 or d8) - 8k down the drain.
You can't 2h with a light or heavy shield.
YOu can only TWF with the shield.
Light shield AC is not equal to Buckler + Shield Focus, but Heavy is.
YOu can't use a one-handed style with a non-Shield primary weapon.
You can't Spell Combat with a non-Shield primary weapon.
Even if you use the Shield as primary weapon, you still have to blow the feat on TWF unless Ranger.
Shield Master does not reduce the TH of your primary weapon, only the shield.
You're restricted to being a Ranger/6 with the SHield Mastery tree, or waiting until 12th level to get Shield Mastery.
You can only use another shield of the same kind if you want Weapon Spec and Weapon Training bonuses to stack. Or spend yet Another AWT feat to let all Close Weapons benefit.
If you make the shield your primary weapon, you need Effortless Lace on your other weapon to wield a non-light secondary weapon...another 2.5k gone.
You do get to enhance the L/H shield to +5 for basically no cost by enhancing the shield benefit at the same time. Ranger/6 or 12th level to benefit, however.]
You have no attack penalty on your shield when bashing. That's probably the biggest benefit of shield Master.
----In summary:
Shield Master/Sword and Board style: takes more feats to get to par; takes early money to approach parity on damage (Bashing enhancement); has a level delay to get going; does not provide a superior AC benefit; and is totally restricted to Ranger builds or requires a substantial delay to come into being, while being unfriendly to most weapon pairings, 2h Fighting, Missile weapon use, synergy of WS and WT for non-shields, and allowing other class abilities to be used concurrently.
In short, the Unhindered Shield feat is far stronger and more versatile then Sword and Board ->Shield Master, providing basically the same or more benefits sooner, more cheaply, and to more builds.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, all I am seeing from this thread is that the feat is fine, but bigger shields suck really, really badly.
I feel like I already knew that from Tower Shield's reputation...