Is the Unhindered Shield feat Too Good? (Armor Master's Handbook)


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The Armor Master's Handbook introduces a number of powerful new feats. One of them, Unhindered Shield, allows you to effectively get the shield bonus from a buckler without in anyway tying up the use of that hand, making this a viable option for two-handed fighters, two-weapon fighters, monks, spellcasters, and so on.

There was some interesting discussion in the Armor Master's Handbook thread on how good this feat was, and indeed, whether this feat was so powerful that it should be banned and/or errata-ed.

So what do you think?


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Wowie, a +1 AC for a Feat

Truly gamebreaking


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

To kick things off, here are my initial thoughts:

In general, you can use a feat to get +1 AC. You can do this in a variety of ways: Dodge, Two Weapon Defense, Armor Focus, Shield Focus, and so on.

So, without further expenditures, you'd expect two feats to get you +2 AC. And, without further expenditures, Shield Focus (a prereq) and Unhindering Shield do give you +2 AC. So, from this perspective, they look perfectly balanced.

Why, then, is Unhindering Shield more powerful than these comparable feats? Because it opens another avenue for increasing your AC via further expenditures that's cheaper than most of the ways of increasing your AC available.

How much of a bonus to AC does this translate into? As skizzerz and Aelryinth point out, this is a tricky thing to calculate, since it depends on what other gear you already have, and how much money you have to devote to increasing your AC. (After all, if your armor isn't enchanted yet, then it's not any cheaper to enchant your buckler. And then there are questions about how you spread around your purchases: as we all know, it's a lot cheaper to pick up +1 bonuses from a lot of sources (natural, deflection, luck, insight, sacred, etc.) than to pick up a bigger bonus from one source.)

So to ensure we're comparing apples to apples, let's focus on shield bonuses to AC. In particular, let's compare the cost of a non-shield item that grants a shield bonus to AC -- call it a "Vest of Shielding" -- and the cost of enhancing a buckler. According to the core rulebook, the cost of a +X buckler is (X^2)*1000gp, while the cost of +X Vest of Shielding is (X^2)*2500gp.

Allowing fractional bonuses to make our comparison precise, we find:

  • +0 buckler (0k) = +0 vest (0k) (buckler +0 ahead)
  • +1 buckler (1k) = +0.63 vest (1k) (buckler +0.63 ahead)
  • +2 buckler (4k) = +1.26 vest (4k) (buckler +0.74 ahead)
  • +3 buckler (9k) = +1.9 vest (9k) (buckler +1.1 ahead)
  • +4 buckler (16k) = +2.53 vest (16k) (buckler +1.47 ahead)
  • +5 buckler (25k) = +3.16 vest (25k) (buckler +1.84 ahead)
The relative boost of the buckler scales as we go up, from +0 at the bottom to +1.84 at the top. But eyeballing it, it looks like a net advantage of about +1 for bucklers.

So, all told, it looks like Unhindering Shield ends up providing a net +2 bonus to AC, averaged over the life of the adventurer. (With a lower effective increase at low levels, and a higher effective increase at higher levels.) This makes Unhindering Shield quite good -- about twice as good as the other generic AC increasing feats mentioned above (Dodge, Two Weapon Defense, Armor Focus, Shield Focus).

But to put this all in context, it's still not as good as (say) Power Attack. And unlike a number of other feats Paizo has put out (Dazing Spell, Persistent Spell, ...) it doesn't strike me as something strong enough to wreck one's campaign.


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Something to note is that a lot of classes that would love to have this, Magus, Monk, etc. Don't have proficiency with bucklers. So they'd need to multiclass or take a 3rd feat to use this.


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Tieflings can get +2 AC from a feat, so no, this is not errata-worthy.


Bucklers already explicitly don't occupy your hand when you wield one.

For the vast majority of classes, all this feat does is give you +1 to attack rolls if you're TWF or THF, maybe.

It's honestly kind of bad.

Quote:
Something to note is that a lot of classes that would love to have this, Magus, Monk, etc. Don't have proficiency with bucklers. So they'd need to multiclass or take a 3rd feat to use this.

A masterwork buckler has an ACP of 0 though, so who cares.


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¬¬'

Seriously... You think this is overpowered?

*sigh*

Martials really can't have nice things...


swoosh wrote:

Bucklers already explicitly don't occupy your hand when you wield one.

For the vast majority of classes, all this feat does is give you +1 to attack rolls if you're TWF or THF, maybe.

It's honestly kind of bad.

Quote:
Something to note is that a lot of classes that would love to have this, Magus, Monk, etc. Don't have proficiency with bucklers. So they'd need to multiclass or take a 3rd feat to use this.
A masterwork buckler has an ACP of 0 though, so who cares.

If a magus uses the buckler for AC he can't use spellcombat. If he uses spell combat he loses the buckler AC.

Monks almost everything shuts down if he uses a shield.

This feat lets them get the shield AC and still do their main stuff.

Silver Crusade

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I'd hate to see what they thought if they saw Power Attack...


Chess Pwn wrote:
If a magus uses the buckler for AC he can't use spellcombat. If he uses spell combat he loses the buckler AC.

Debatable, Magii need a hand free to spell combat. Bucklers explicitly don't occupy a hand. It's also why Bucklers are fine with Slashing/Fencing/Etc. Grace.

Quote:
Monks almost everything shuts down if he uses a shield.

Yeah, but there's also some grey area on how the feat interacts with the monk's AC bonus. Your hand is considered completely unoccupied, but you still have armor.

Though even if we take a generous reading, it's far from a must have feat and doesn't change the point that for most classes it's just weapon focus.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:

¬¬'

Seriously... You think this is overpowered?

*sigh*

Martials really can't have nice things...

(Just to be clear, I don't think it's overpowered. I think it's pretty powerful, but not too powerful to be unbalancing. But there were several people on the other thread who argued that the feat was much too good, and should be banned.

Hopefully some of them will show up and defend their positions in this thread!)


The AC progression doesn't work properly against natural attacks without shields because of the CL limits and the +5 cap. All this does is charge a tax to fix a legacy issue that should have been corrected in the CRB by changing prices, caster level requirements, and bonus caps on other armor bonus items.


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Porridge wrote:

The Armor Master's Handbook introduces a number of powerful new feats. One of them, Unhindered Shield, allows you to effectively get the shield bonus from a buckler without in anyway tying up the use of that hand, making this a viable option for two-handed fighters, two-weapon fighters, monks, spellcasters, and so on.

There was some interesting discussion in the Armor Master's Handbook thread on how good this feat was, and indeed, whether this feat was so powerful that it should be banned and/or errata-ed.

So what do you think?

Neato burrito, a whole +1 shield bonus.

Without spending a couple thousand GP, this feat is less powerful than DODGE.


swoosh wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
If a magus uses the buckler for AC he can't use spellcombat. If he uses spell combat he loses the buckler AC.

Debatable, Magii need a hand free to spell combat. Bucklers explicitly don't occupy a hand. It's also why Bucklers are fine with Slashing/Fencing/Etc. Grace.

Quote:
Monks almost everything shuts down if he uses a shield.

Yeah, but there's also some grey area on how the feat interacts with the monk's AC bonus. Your hand is considered completely unoccupied, but you still have armor.

Though even if we take a generous reading, it's far from a must have feat and doesn't change the point that for most classes it's just weapon focus.

buckler wrote:

In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn.

You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn.

So if you're using your hand to cast a spell or to fight you lose the AC normally.

Special: A monk with this feat is not considered to
be using a shield for the purposes of his AC bonus, fast
movement, or flurry of blows.

Scarab Sages

swoosh wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
If a magus uses the buckler for AC he can't use spellcombat. If he uses spell combat he loses the buckler AC.

Debatable, Magii need a hand free to spell combat. Bucklers explicitly don't occupy a hand. It's also why Bucklers are fine with Slashing/Fencing/Etc. Grace.

Post errata, the Magus specifically can't use spell combat with slashing/fencing/starry grace. Spell combat uses a hand, and the feats shut down if the hand is used for any other purpose.


Well the feat gives Unchained Monks a reason to not be Two Handed weapon users. ;)

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Well the feat gives Unchained Monks a reason to not be Two Handed weapon users. ;)

Or to take shield brace.


Bucklers do not occupy the hand. They work fine with Spell combat, as long as it's a mithral buckler so it doesn't have arcane spell failure.


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yes, but if you use that hand to cast a spell then you're losing the AC bonus the buckler is giving you. This feat lets you keep the buckler's AC always.


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Eh, you could already do this with the quickdraw feat and quickdraw light (wooden or steel) shields.


The feat isn't exactly OP, and it helps Monks, but of all the things Monks need, a dab of extra AC at high levels is not one of them.


swoosh wrote:

Bucklers already explicitly don't occupy your hand when you wield one.

For the vast majority of classes, all this feat does is give you +1 to attack rolls if you're TWF or THF, maybe.

It's honestly kind of bad.

Quote:
Something to note is that a lot of classes that would love to have this, Magus, Monk, etc. Don't have proficiency with bucklers. So they'd need to multiclass or take a 3rd feat to use this.
A masterwork buckler has an ACP of 0 though, so who cares.

If you want to keep that Buckler's AC bonus after doing your Spell Combat/Flurry of Blows, you should care.

The feat requires that you be proficient with Bucklers, you see. Doesn't work without that proficiency, even if you can reduce the ACP to 0.


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At low levels Unhindered Shield is not particularly powerful. It simply lowers the cost of the next +1 to AC.

At higher levels, Unhindered Shield is +7 to AC above what would normally be available to the character, stacking with nearly all other feats that grant additional AC. At the highest levels, Unhindered Shield is allowing a significant number of special properties the character may not have otherwise been able to access.

It is not the initial strength of the Feat that should be considered, but the eventual scaling.


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Snowlilly wrote:

At low levels Unhindered Shield is not particularly powerful. It simply lowers the cost of the next +1 to AC.

At higher levels, Unhindered Shield is +7 to AC above what would normally be available to the character, stacking with nearly all other feats that grant additional AC. At the highest levels, Unhindered Shield is allowing a significant number of special properties the character may not have otherwise been able to access.

It is not the initial strength of the Feat that should be considered, but the eventual scaling.

But it's not above what the game expects players to have. It's shield-less builds that are below. The attack/AC math against natural attacks assumes that every PC has a fully enhanced shield. The damage/HP math assumes that every PC has a two handed weapon or two weapon fighting. The action economy for two weapon fighting doesn't work without pounce. Nobody that can get pounce can afford the feats for two weapon fighting with a shield.

This is a patch for a long broken part of the game. It would be better if it didn't tax you a feat, but Paizo never ever actually fixes things without taxing a feat.


Multiple feats if you're a monk, but hey what's new?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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The feat is basically useless if you already use a shield.

What it is is a blatant gift to those who do NOT use a shield. Specifically, TWF'ers (includes monks) and 2hf'ers. Even one-handed archetypes can now jump on the bandwagon.

With this feat, sword and board is dead. You have NO reason to use a normal shield and a one handed weapon, and trade damage for defense.

You can TWF and get all your attacks, and your shield AC.
You can use a Greatsword and deal the best damage in the game, AND get your Shield AC.

It takes Shield Focus to take this feat. Ergo, what happens is that someone who wouldn't normally use a shield takes shield focus, then this feat.

instantly, their AC increases by 2, because they can now wear a shield without penalty. Enter la buckler.

Armor is THE cheapest way to raise your AC. Making the shield +1 requires 1k gp, 500 if you are a crafter. So, basically, instant +3 bonus to AC. Raising it to +2 takes 3k gp more, 1.5 if you are a crafter. +4 to AC. At max power, and for the minimum possible price, you get +7 to AC.

Secondly, you get access to the shield slot. Not only +5 enhancement, but, say, Heavy fortification. Or an extra elemental resistance. You didn't have access to that slot before.

Thirdly, you can use shield defensive feats you couldn't before. Like, ray shield, missile shield, the one that lets you sacrifice your shield to intercept a blow, the one that gives your shield AC away to an adjacent ally, etc etc. All immaterial, because you didn't wear a shield before.

This feat does NOTHING for melee people who already used sword and board. What it does is make sword and board obsolete. If you're good with falchion and greatsword guys getting AC as good as the sword and board guys, then there's no complaints. If you don't have a problem with monks having +4 to +7 more AC then they did before, then there is not a problem.

This feat is Improved Buckler Defense for Pathfinder, a feat that was basically broken in 3.5 as soon as it came out. It is worth noting on the WoTC Char Ops boards that NOBODY used this feat for builds, because it was considered broken on printing. You had no reason to EVER play a sword and board character once you could have your Greatsword damage and fine shield AC at the same time.

have your great Shield AC and the enemy eating your best damage build, too. What is there not to love? I don't have to make the choice between solid AC and trading off damage again, ever.

And you know what's even MORE fun? IT kills TWF'er builds, too. You know those extra three feats that TWF'ers all have to spend to get those extra attacks? Well, now we know what 2 of em are being spent on by the Greatsword guys...shield AC!

So when you do your build comparisons, not only does the Greatsword wielder deal out more dmg then the TWF'er, his AC will be 2-7 points higher, as good as a sword and board guy, and he STILL hasn't spent as many feats as the TWF'er!

==Aelryinth


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Snowlilly wrote:

At low levels Unhindered Shield is not particularly powerful. It simply lowers the cost of the next +1 to AC.

At higher levels, Unhindered Shield is +7 to AC above what would normally be available to the character, stacking with nearly all other feats that grant additional AC. At the highest levels, Unhindered Shield is allowing a significant number of special properties the character may not have otherwise been able to access.

It is not the initial strength of the Feat that should be considered, but the eventual scaling.

Armor class is considerably less valuable at high levels, and it does bear mentioning this bonus is more the function of you pouring a TON of gold into your buckler than having the feat itself.

If you're going to spend thousands of gold and a feat on a modest bonus to your defenses, and the scaling means...your defenses are better than they would normally be, that seems like things working how they should to me.

That's a feat and thousands of gold you could've spent on other things. You've earned that AC bonus, and it's sure as hell not going to make you untouchable.


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Aelryinth, a serious question for you:

For the classes who could use this the most, it is cripplingly feat-intensive to take. What THREE FEATS out of TEN are you going to sacrifice on a Magus or Monk for this, and how do you think that is going to effect everything you do with that character from then on?

Before you go off on a rant about it 'not being three Feats,' keep in mind that neither of those two classes have Shield proficiency, which means they have to take that, then Shield Focus, THEN Unhindered Shield.


Nocte ex Mortis: I don't have a copy of the feat so I can't be sure of what's needed, but there are more ways to get proficiency in a shield than taking the feat. I can't say how viable they'd be as I don't know the exact wording.


What feats are those classes needing to take?

Magus = dervish dance at lv3.
Monk = ???


Chess Pwn wrote:

What feats are those classes needing to take?

Magus = dervish dance at lv3.
Monk = ???

Monks make good use out of pummeling/ascetic style line feats and if they use multiple styles, they then need Combat Style Master. Sadly, the bonus feats they gain are of little use in getting the feats they actually want.

That said, I don't know of anything either class NEEDS to take.


You have to have either A: An Archetype that gives it to you, B: A Feat that gives it you you, C: Possibly a Trait, or D: Have it as an in-Class ability.

The two classes who could use this the most, honestly?

They have 1 Archetype in the new book, I think, no in-class given ability, no shortcut to get it, and there's exactly 1 Trait to get proficiency, and it's a Regional Trait.

It is surprisingly difficult to get.


Dimensional Dervish line?

(Fill-in-the-blank-Combat) Style?

I mean, for a full loadout, that's seven Feats right there.


None of those are required to make the class work well. They are fun nice add-ons, just as this feat line is.


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That's kind of my point. To get Unhindered Shield is feat-intensive, along the lines of the things you actually want your class to do. For what, possibly 6,7 AC, if you're spending significant chunks of your progression and money on it?

Could they use it? Most definitely the two classes I listed could really benefit from it, but they are going to pay out the nose for said benefits, so I don't see how this could be considered 'broken,' even when placed against similar styled martial Feats, let alone the big offenders like Leadership and Sacred Geometry.

In short, three Feats is not an insignificant investment, so there should be a large return on it. This shouldn't be another Greater Trip.


Pay out the nose?
I struggle to find feats I want a monk to take. Now I finally have something to throw my feats at.


Nocte ex Mortis: What about another class? A single level of Enlightened Bloodrager gets a monk 2 cantrips, [wizard, bloodrager and druid] spell list 1-4th, proficient with [all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields], Bloodrage and Fast Movement.

Heck, the ability use a wand of Wizard Armor alone is worth it. The rest is more than worth a 1 level wait for main class abilities.


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Chess Pwn wrote:

Pay out the nose?

I struggle to find feats I want a monk to take. Now I finally have something to throw my feats at.

If you struggle to find Feats you want on a Monk, you're probably doing something wrong.


Sundakan wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Pay out the nose?

I struggle to find feats I want a monk to take. Now I finally have something to throw my feats at.
If you struggle to find Feats you want on a Monk, you're probably doing something wrong.

Please, share these feats that a monk must/should take. Do it for a monk maxing out at lv10. What feats are a monk interested in?


Chess Pwn wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Pay out the nose?

I struggle to find feats I want a monk to take. Now I finally have something to throw my feats at.
If you struggle to find Feats you want on a Monk, you're probably doing something wrong.
Please, share these feats that a monk must/should take. Do it for a monk maxing out at lv10. What feats are a monk interested in?

It's been a while, but off the top of my head (and assuming MoMS because that's pretty much "core" monk):

1. Dragon Style
1. Dragon Ferocity
2. Power Attack
3.
5.
6. Pummeling Style
7.
9. Pummling Charge
10.

I'd kinda consider those the must haves if you are going unarmed strength build. I guess you could fit shield stuff in as well, but I personally like Eldritch Heritage Orc fun (optionally with Community Minded/Optimistic Gambler traits and maybe Quicken SLA at 11) or Weapon Focus -> Versatile Weapon -> Hamatula Strike to get your full attack and then impale the enemy on your fist.


chaoseffect wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

Pay out the nose?

I struggle to find feats I want a monk to take. Now I finally have something to throw my feats at.
If you struggle to find Feats you want on a Monk, you're probably doing something wrong.
Please, share these feats that a monk must/should take. Do it for a monk maxing out at lv10. What feats are a monk interested in?

It's been a while, but off the top of my head (and assuming MoMS because that's pretty much "core" monk):

1. Dragon Style
1. Dragon Ferocity
2. Power Attack
3.
5.
6. Pummeling Style
7.
9. Pummling Charge
10.

I'd kinda consider those the must haves if you are going unarmed strength build. I guess you could fit shield stuff in as well, but I personally like Eldritch Heritage Orc fun (optionally with Community Minded/Optimistic Gambler traits and maybe Quicken SLA at 11) or Weapon Focus -> Versatile Weapon -> Hamatula Strike to get your full attack and then impale the enemy on your fist.

Medusa's Wrath at 10th. Ignoring prerequisites is sweet, and it combos from a successful Stunning Fist into two free attacks.

Power Attack is an ASAP feat, Weapon Focus is a "probably should have". You'll want to have a style chain somewhere, which is 2-3 feats, depending on what level you end at. You qualify for Twist Away if you want it, but you're not as dependent on that sort of feat as a Rogue. Toughness helps if you're playing the d8 Monk. Ascetic Style is pretty good if you get your hands on an Urumi proficiency, since it lets you crit from 18-20.


So if I'm going normal Unchained Monk using a weapon for PFS I pick up power attack and maybe weapon focus. There are just so many monk specific feats to get. :P


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This honestly blew my mind when I heard it. Does the buckler just float around then if it does not occupy a hand, or did paizo screw up a weapon description/name again? Cause the buckler was a weapon you held with your hand and used for things like punching in a sword fight. Do people think anyone ever really strapped it to the forearm? Cause..just no. No it doesn't do that. Or is this reality vs "they messed up again." like with weapon weights.

Silver Crusade

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Jaçinto wrote:
This honestly blew my mind when I heard it. Does the buckler just float around then if it does not occupy a hand, or did paizo screw up a weapon description/name again? Cause the buckler was a weapon you held with your hand and used for things like punching in a sword fight. Do people think anyone ever really strapped it to the forearm? Cause..just no. No it doesn't do that. Or is this reality vs "they messed up again." like with weapon weights.
Buckler wrote:
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an offhand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can’t make a shield bash with a buckler.

Paizo didn't screw this up, the d20 buckler has always been this way (Same with weapon weights, which I don't think they are that far off to my knowledge). Blame 30+ years of fantasy sword and shield fighting if you don't like the rules.


But if you look at an actual buckler, you can't strap it to your forearm. You just can't. It is made to be held with the hand. It's just wrong and my brain keeps shouting at how wrong it is. Especially since it says you can't make a shield bash with it, when that was practically the whole point of the buckler.

Silver Crusade

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But if you look at fantasy bucklers you can. Which is what we use in Pathfinder, fantasy bucklers. Not real world ones.

Again, this isn't some new development, bucklers in fantasy for as long as I can remember have always been strapped to the arm. Sorry.


This makes my brain hurt. I have to go lay down now.

Silver Crusade

Sowwy, try and have a good rest.


Porridge wrote:

The Armor Master's Handbook introduces a number of powerful new feats. One of them, Unhindered Shield, allows you to effectively get the shield bonus from a buckler without in anyway tying up the use of that hand, making this a viable option for two-handed fighters, two-weapon fighters, monks, spellcasters, and so on.

There was some interesting discussion in the Armor Master's Handbook thread on how good this feat was, and indeed, whether this feat was so powerful that it should be banned and/or errata-ed.

So what do you think?

Is this just a +1 bonus or do you get to actually use the shield without losing the bonus to AC?

If someone was complaining about a +1 bonus feel free to ignore them unless there is more to the story, and if it takes 3 feats to get a +3 bonus go back to ignoring them.

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