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The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER filled zone, do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.
This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 2 of the Hell's Vengeance Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:
Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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The assumption, is that Groat's body was 'left out' long enough for Gregor to acquire the hammer. This makes sense, as Oppian would have been needed to help consolidate the Reclamation's control over the town.
Afterwards, I think it'd be safe to assume that he was buried by his former friend. The smithy would make a lot of sense for this, but it's possible Oppian refused to return. Given that, Groat could also be buried on the grounds of Valor's Fastness or somewhere near to the city.
Whatever works best for your campaign! (And likely involves animating his corpse... to use as a weapon)
GO EVIL! :)
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The assumption, is that Groat's body was 'left out' long enough for Gregor to acquire the hammer. This makes sense, as Oppian would have been needed to help consolidate the Reclamation's control over the town.
Afterwards, I think it'd be safe to assume that he was buried by his former friend. The smithy would make a lot of sense for this, but it's possible Oppian refused to return. Given that, Groat could also be buried on the grounds of Valor's Fastness or somewhere near to the city.
Whatever works best for your campaign! (And likely involves animating his corpse... to use as a weapon)
GO EVIL! :)
Thanks, I am pretty sure someone in my group would think to animate him but I like that he was buried in the Valor's Fastness so he would not be easy to get.
I totaled up the various Despair meter points you can earn throughout the adventure, and only came up with 70 total. And that number includes: killing both the faceless stalkers and Thrune loyalists in Hardship's Hearth, allying with Brextur, killing townsfolk in Valor's Fastness, and using Jalila's skin as a banner or a coat. So its conceivable that a party can do every encounter in the book, and be shy of 55 before their initial assault on the fastness. Is this intended? I don't get that impression while reading it, but it seems to be.
Edit: On a related note, what would be a good amount of despair points to award for additional encounters or ideas the players come up with, like, say, animating Groat. Would awarding the CR of the encounter in despair points be appropriate, with possible bonus point or two for being extra evil or extra obvious?
- 1. The Historicum Heresy: Simply destroying the Historicum or its contents would have a negative effect on the town, given the longtime residency of the owners and the precious documents they unearthed in the wake of the Glorious Revolution, but making it obvious that they are being punished for heretical activities would put everyone on guard. Anselm (court poet) and Gebhard (successful merchant) defend their home, but try to run if confronted with lethal damage. Guards are summoned the instant a fight breaks out within the Historicum, but take an additional minute to arrive due to being located at the edge of town. (4 despair for looting/destorying the building, with an additional 1 point if the couple is killed, and 1 if players make it obvious this is the work of Thrune agents.
If this doesn't occur to the players, Zara certainly thinks of this action, and might even try to do it herself if she can't convince the players along.
- 2. Inherited Wisdom: The reason Iomedae's home has stood intact for 900 years is that it has played host to a loci spirit (See Occult Locations here) all this time. Corrupting then destroying the spirit would strike a devestating blow against both the reclamation and the townsfolk (Despair +3), as the house rapidly begins to deteriorate now that its protection has been shattered. However, it might be worse to simply corrupt the spirit and then somehow convince Oppian or another clergy of Iomedae to destroy the spirit (+1 despair), as confronting a haunt within this sacred site can be seen as a sign Iomedae has withdrawn her favor.
Burden of Leadership CR 5
XP 1600
LG Protective boon loci spirit (within walls of Iomedae's home)
Caster Level 5th
hp 10; Ceremony Knowledge (local) DC 25, Knowledge (religion) DC 25
Effect Successfully meditating on Iomedae's actions during her tenure as Kantaria's leader can provide guidance even to the modern day, granting a boon of augury.
Corruption Effect augury becomes touch of idiocy (DC 13)
Senior Developer
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If they hit every encounter, the PCs should be able to get the Despair Meter up to 65 before attacking Valor's Fastness. The adventure definitely assumes that the PCs go through every encounter, and it assumes they do their best to get the Despair Meter as high as possible. The 10 points between 65 and 55 (the minimum needed to trigger Part 3) is a way to account for any of the times when they don't get quite enough Despair points from an individual encounter (in other words, if they fail to get the all of the Despair from every encounter, there is still a margin of error). In addition, massacring the townsfolk in area H7 of Valor's Fastness can net them 10 more points to help make up any shortfall.
Long story short, if they hit all of the encounters in the book, the Despair Meter should be high enough to trigger the retreat to Valor's Fastness.
As for awarding Despair for additional encounters or actions, compare them to the encounters already in the book and base the totals on that. And of the PCs seem to be lagging behind (in terms of the Despair Meter), you can make the despair from these additional encounters a little higher to make up the points that the PCs missed.
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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It looks that way. The players go from lawful agents of the govt to terrorists. From that perspective the players will probably also come up with their own acts of sabotage to try to remind the town who they belong to. You probably won't be restricted to just the events in the book. Maybe the players decide to burn down the house/business of an outspoken supporter of the GR. Paint a huge symbol of house Thrune in the town square at night. There might be a lot of impromptu plans that could grant a few despair points depending on what they come up with. My party has a cleric of asmodeus who likes to go out of his way to defile Iomedean shrines(especially after a cleric of iomedae kicked over the shrine to asmodeus he set up in the prison in book 1). I imagine that will happen at least once.
Pretty much this.
It's kind of like an evil team ALA 'Inglourious Basterds', who go in to cause a ruckus. A particularly awful ruckus.
And yet, weirdly,it fits my players' party mentality a LOT better- probably because they're acting in the interests of Thrune,and their terrible actions are for political, rather than directly personal ends. I don't see much I'll have to tweak for my specific group, and, being lazy, I appreciate that a great deal.
Terrorists? Special Forces.
They are going behind enemy lines to liberate a town that is a rightful part of Cheliax. They are also targeting traitors who turned on the town and turned on the rightful Queen of the nation. And they're doing so in a way so the town isn't a smouldering crater as it would be if the Queen sent a high-level priest or wizard to rain destruction down on the town in retribution for their betrayal.
I'm just looking forward to the treatment my scumbags are going to give any "pets" they manage to influence early on... because I forsee some really CREEPY stuff coming from some of them...
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Before, I was worried that this AP wouldn't really go far enough in the evil it facilitated the PCs' committing.
It looks like my concerns were entirely unfounded.
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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Before, I was worried that this AP wouldn't really go far enough in the evil it facilitated the PCs' committing.
It looks like my concerns were entirely unfounded.
This is basically the equivalent of a 5-star review in my eyes... so thanks! :D
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It looks to me like 5 of the 6 social stat blocks on pages 13-15 are missing their Influence check DC. According to the description of how influence works:
Each NPC has a social stat block that details basic race and class information (and where to find the NPC’s full stat block), role, appearance, and personality. In addition, the social stat block indicates the NPC’s influence check DC (listed in the Influence entry) and the number of times that NPC must be successfully influenced (see the Successes entry) before the NPC is considered friendly toward the party and grants the PCs a useful benefit (see the Benefits entry. A PC earns an additional success for every 5 points by which the influence check exceeds the listed DC.
It appears that only Oppian has such a DC listed in the Influence section. Is the intention that all the other DCs are just 15?
EDIT: Or is it supposed to be the number listed up in the DISCOVERY section? For example, Loredana's says:
DISCOVERY
Influence (Sense Motive DC 15) Bluff, Intimidate, or
Diplomacy DC 20
So her Influence DC is 20? Unless I hear otherwise, that's what I'm going to assume.
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Senior Developer
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It looks to me like 5 of the 6 social stat blocks on pages 13-15 are missing their Influence check DC. According to the description of how influence works:
Each NPC has a social stat block that details basic race and class information (and where to find the NPC’s full stat block), role, appearance, and personality. In addition, the social stat block indicates the NPC’s influence check DC (listed in the Influence entry) and the number of times that NPC must be successfully influenced (see the Successes entry) before the NPC is considered friendly toward the party and grants the PCs a useful benefit (see the Benefits entry. A PC earns an additional success for every 5 points by which the influence check exceeds the listed DC.It appears that only Oppian has such a DC listed in the Influence section. Is the intention that all the other DCs are just 15?
EDIT: Or is it supposed to be the number listed up in the DISCOVERY section? For example, Loredana's says:
So her Influence DC is 20? Unless I hear otherwise, that's what I'm going to assume.DISCOVERY
Influence (Sense Motive DC 15) Bluff, Intimidate, or
Diplomacy DC 20
Actually, 1 of the 6 stat blocks has an accidental, additional influence check DC. Looks like there's a couple of errors in this section, as some of the terminology was changed in editing.
The fix(es): The skills that can be used for influence checks and the DC of these checks is listed in the Influence entry in the Discovery section of each stat block.
In addition, ignore the first line in the Influence section of Oppian's stat block, which lists "Influence" and "Additional Skill." Use the influence check skills and DC in the Discovery section of his stat block.
So Oppian can be influenced with a successful DC 18 Bluff, Diplomacy, or Knowledge (religion) check. Loredana can be influenced with a DC 20 Bluff, Intimidate, or Diplomacy check. And so on for everyone else...
Sorry for the confusion!
The iconic Hellknight seems to have made a foolish choice in the name of loyalty. While scarring her throat with boiling water has no ingame effect, not being able to give clear orders to anyone under her command is a liability methinks.
Hurpp..Urrr..Loooterzzzzz
What?
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Contributor—Canadian Maplecakes
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I like how so far the GR's lawfulness is working against them. It's basically impossible for the party to realistically do the events in this book without suspicion pointing at them. As soon as they arrive bad things start happening. They might not leave witnesses, but it's definitely suspicious. Oh no the docks burned down a week after 4-5 heavily armed strangers with mean dispositions took up residence in the inn on the edge of this small town. After the first couple things happen, or the first important NPC ends up dead, Oppian should have rallied up his A-team(the warden, the legion archon, that nonlethal ram outsider, and 3-4 sergeants) and come to arrest the PCs. Chances are there's some damning evidence(holy symbols of asmodeus, thrune insignias, something)
Part of this, is the fact that the PCs can influence and meet with members of the local government AND the GR leadership. I wanted to give PCs the option of becoming besties with their eventual enemies, as it makes the betrayal all the sweeter.
Jalila is a perfect example of an 'inevitable fate' that is made all the more depressing and awful if the PCs form a false relationship with her.
I like how so far the GR's lawfulness is working against them. It's basically impossible for the party to realistically do the events in this book without suspicion pointing at them. As soon as they arrive bad things start happening. They might not leave witnesses, but it's definitely suspicious. Oh no the docks burned down a week after 4-5 heavily armed strangers with mean dispositions took up residence in the inn on the edge of this small town. After the first couple things happen, or the first important NPC ends up dead, Oppian should have rallied up his A-team(the warden, the legion archon, that nonlethal ram outsider, and 3-4 sergeants) and come to arrest the PCs. Chances are there's some damning evidence(holy symbols of asmodeus, thrune insignias, something)
There is an easy way for the GM to avoid making the town council look like idiots for not suspecting the PCs:
A second team of Thrune Agents, sponsored by a rival of Fex. They are not as talented, but their style is more flashy, making them the primary suspects in cases of terrorism. That way the PC are only casually watched while everyone searches for this second team.
Here is how I done it. Fex informs the PCs of the rival team is in town and has recently attacked Little Uskwood, knowing that its operated by someone in Fex pocket. This also gives the owner's (forgot her name) story of needing bodyguards more credibility: She needs protection from some Chelish noble, but she can't have Iomedans hanging around, as they would intimidate her Nidalese customer. Since Oppian has a crush on her, he cools tempers and allows her hiring bodyguards from outside.
This tactic also helps keeping your PCs from attacking Valors fastness directly: The other team might take credit. So until they are exterminated, the PCs should wait with their final attack.
The other Thrune agents should not be a big threat. During their last attack they had multiple casualties, meaning that when the PCs arrive, they can only engage in minor acts of sabotage (25% chance everyday for a despair point).
When enough DP are collected for the town to sink into anarchy, let the PCs find the other agents hideout (another nearby cave). Once the Pcs return, the town has sunken into anarchy, and the final attack can begin.
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So what kinds of "gifts" have you all been giving to your players at the end? For some of my players it's been easy to decide on something good under 6k. (The antipaladin has been wanting boots of spring and Striding since session 0) For others it's harder. Nothing ju.ps out at me for the Alchemist or Zen Archer. I don't want to give out stat items or things I know they will purchase (aside from the boots, she wants them SO bad lol)
So far I've decided the Dhampir wizard is getting Gloves of Bony Power. The aforementioned boots for the Antipaladin. Luminous Lockpicks for the Rouge.
Why would you get something in the makeup kit, why would your rouge need anything... unless it's like a dummy corporation and you're just funneling it back to you.
Or, I guess you could mean Rogue, but I'm not sure. :-D
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Why would you get something in the makeup kit, why would your rouge need anything... unless it's like a dummy corporation and you're just funneling it back to you.
Or, I guess you could mean Rogue, but I'm not sure. :-D
Yes. Thanks for the correction, I shall endeavor to be more accurate in all future nearly 5am forum posts made from my smartphone. '_'
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What is the pretext for Event 1 (Oppian invites Loredana and the PCs for brunch)? The PCs arrive in town and...the governor just randomly invites them? Does the local leader of the Glorious Reclamation make a habit out of inviting every traveler to brunch with him and his inner circle? It seems a bit out of nowhere.
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Senior Developer, Starfinder Team
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What is the pretext for Event 1 (Oppian invites Loredana and the PCs for brunch)? The PCs arrive in town and...the governor just randomly invites them? Does the local leader of the Glorious Reclamation make a habit out of inviting every traveler to brunch with him and his inner circle? It seems a bit out of nowhere.
Oppian has a crush on Loredana. The PCs are in Kantaria under the pretext of being protection for Loredana. He's really inviting Loredana to brunch, but inviting her new "friends" too makes it seem less obvious (or so Oppian hopes).
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Rob, is there a flow chart for this adventure written on a napkin somewhere at Paizo? I'm prepping this adventure and find myself a bit confused as to the order of events. Any help or tool to help track the order of things and the despair points would be greatly appreciated (book 1 had this neat little RP table for example)
Cheers!
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Senior Developer, Starfinder Team
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Rob, is there a flow chart for this adventure written on a napkin somewhere at Paizo? I'm prepping this adventure and find myself a bit confused as to the order of events. Any help or tool to help track the order of things and the despair points would be greatly appreciated (book 1 had this neat little RP table for example)
Cheers!
Sorry, there's no "secret flow chart" or anything for this adventure. As mentioned in the intro to Part 2 of the adventure on page 7, it's more of sandbox, meaning the order of events and encounters can and should change in response to the PCs' actions. As such, there's no set order for those encounters.
That being said, the numbered events are ordered in the most logical order in which they might happen. Each event also includes guidelines at the beginning for when and where they take place. For the lettered location-based encounters, these are meant to be played when the PCs go to those locations, either on their own, or in response to rumors or other information gathered during the adventure.
My best advice is not to try and plan out the entire order of events in advance. Prepare the first few events/encounters, and then go from there based on what the PCs are interested in. This should make a much more rewarding experience for the players, as it seems like their actions are primarily responsible for driving the plot.
Hope that helps!
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Rob: this helps! thanks!
Two follow up questions:
1) Are there events, in your opinion, which should absolutely not happen before a certain other event?
2) In book 1, once the Rebellion Points reach a certain point, I have come up with mobs of angry residents in the streets (using troop stats from Hell's Rebels and The House on Hook Street). In book 2 of Hell's Vengeance, as the despair meter rises, do you think it would be a good idea to do something similar? I'm not so sure the nature of the 'despair' tension would lean towards anger in the streets. I'm thinking about - maybe - using angry Thrune supporters at 30+ DP... (which would result in some interesting interactions if the PCs are 'undercover')
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Senior Developer, Starfinder Team
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Rob: this helps! thanks!
Two follow up questions:
1) Are there events, in your opinion, which should absolutely not happen before a certain other event?
2) In book 1, once the Rebellion Points reach a certain point, I have come up with mobs of angry residents in the streets (using troop stats from Hell's Rebels and The House on Hook Street). In book 2 of Hell's Vengeance, as the despair meter rises, do you think it would be a good idea to do something similar? I'm not so sure the nature of the 'despair' tension would lean towards anger in the streets. I'm thinking about - maybe - using angry Thrune supporters at 30+ DP... (which would result in some interesting interactions if the PCs are 'undercover')
1) Not really, the events are mostly self-contained. What's more important is timing the events to the location-based encounters, as mentioned in the beginning of some of the events (for example, Event 7 should usually trigger after the PCs defeat Jalila Hadjara at Area E. Hardship's Hearth; and Events 9 and 10 should bracket the exploration of area G. The Blooming Caves).
2) You're right, angry people in the streets doesn't match the Despair Meter, which represents the people's loss of faith in the Glorious Reclamation. I like your idea of emboldened Thrune supporters taking action though, especially if the PCs remain undercover. That could provide a nice "moral quandary" for the evil PCs in how to handle that... :)
Hey guys, I'm looking for some advice:
My group has surpassed 15 Despair points through diverse sabotages (Oathmarket, Halfling slaves, supplies, relationship with Loredana and "freeing" Brextur) and at the same time used their influence with diverse council members to plant the idea that the Narikopolus loyalists might be behind the attacks.
So, they go to the council and propose to mediate between the loyalists and the rebellion, or at least to get information about the missing family they've heard about. Their true intent is to make contact with the loyalists to gather supporters and get strength in numbers, so that they can start a civil war.
Oppian is suspecting the PCs, but agrees to the propose, because he hasn't much to lose here in his opinion. Also it gives him an opportunity to shadow them with his Spyglass archons.
Here is where my problems start: The first thing the spyglass archons witness, is the PCs when they enter Linton's shop. If the archons report this information back to Oppian, to what conclusions should he come and what should be the consequences?
Also, I foresee my PCs soon making their moves on the council members and shortly after I think they might focus their attention on Valor's Fastness. Should I discourage my players to target the temple to early, or should I just let them give it a go?
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Also, I foresee my PCs soon making their moves on the council members and shortly after I think they might focus their attention on Valor's Fastness. Should I discourage my players to target the temple to early, or should I just let them give it a go?
I wouldn't discourage them to do anything, but during evenings at the inn I would call for Diplomacy checks to gather information, and give the successful PCs rumors about a bunch of things, which, upon investigation, would lead to those lower challenge encounters in the book. There's a half-page 'rumor mill' section near the beginning of the book I believe: use it and overwhelm them with information. Also, if they stay at the inn described at the beginning, it's 100% they'll do that basement encounter by the third night they're in town I believe.
Based on Rob's answers to my questions above, it's a sandbox and it doesn't seem like doing anything out of order would have disastrous consequences plot-wise (so the only worry from a GM perspective is the 'health-wise' consequences, which can be averted if the party hits the RUN button...)
I wouldn't discourage them to do anything, but during evenings at the inn I would call for Diplomacy checks to gather information, and give the successful PCs rumors about a bunch of things, which, upon investigation, would lead to those lower challenge encounters in the book. There's a half-page 'rumor mill' section near the beginning of the book I believe: use it and overwhelm them with information. Also, if they stay at the inn described at the beginning, it's 100% they'll do that basement encounter by the third night they're in town I believe.
Based on Rob's answers to my questions above, it's a sandbox and it doesn't seem like doing anything out of order would have disastrous consequences plot-wise (so the only worry from a GM perspective is the 'health-wise' consequences, which can be averted if the party hits the RUN button...)
They already know most of the rumors around Kantaria and our necromancer already took control over the undead dad, so a lot of there is a lot going on already and Kalcyra will soon return.
But still I don't know how Oppian would react to Lintons betrayal, working together with potential intruders. Should he be proactive and try sabotage their meetings, or would he rather stay quiet for a while and try to gather information?
A little update on my campaign and again advice would be appreciated (question at the end):
After finding out about Zara Orcelani being imprisoned in Hearth's Hardship, the group went out at night, to murder Jalila in her sleep. They got somewhat close to her and they knew that fighting her straight up could end up being really troublesome for them. So they hatch out a plan, which ends up working flawlessly and they manage to overtake the prison. The group decides that their cover has been compromised at this point or in the very near future, as Oppian has been suspecting them. So the group decides to take out as many targets and strategic points as possible.
They first move to kill Faydreth in the Narikopolus Mansion. They sneak in through the kitchen backdoor and try to sneak up the servant's staircase, where our inquisitor of Abadar triggers the phantasmal killer trap and dies to bad rolls. Faydreth is alerted and takes his time to prepare, while the party is confused and in panic. Faydreth lures them to the bookshelves to also use that trap to his advantage. They have a really tough fight with Faydreth (after all they are a man down), but in the end they manage to prevail. They loot the place as quickly as they can (mostly to get Zara's equipment back) and retreat quickly to the prison, where they burry their fellow soldier and start to rest after a tough fight.
The day after Kalcyra shows up angrily and challenges the PCs. They fight her and her Foo Dogs (at this point I have given Zara stat block to the fallen player, to play as her). They defeat her barely, but they now know that the jig is up.
So here comes my question: The group now wants to raid the temple of Torag (knowing that it was once a temple to Asmodeus), in the hope of finding a scroll of Raise Dead. I like the idea (I haven't decided if they'll find a scroll there or in fortress), especially as they are a few Despair Points shy, but what encounters should I put in the temple. What should await them there?
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Beyond the immediate answer of clerics/paladins/warpriests/inquisitors of Torag, perhaps include one or more Graven Guardians, tweaked to better represent Torag (warhammers instead of scimitars, appropriate domain, etc). If I recall correctly, this AP is fairly light on constructs generally speaking, and Torag, much more than Iomedae, has a faith predisposed to making use of them.
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Beyond the immediate answer of clerics/paladins/warpriests/inquisitors of Torag, perhaps include one or more Graven Guardians, tweaked to better represent Torag (warhammers instead of scimitars, appropriate domain, etc). If I recall correctly, this AP is fairly light on constructs generally speaking, and Torag, much more than Iomedae, has a faith predisposed to making use of them.
That's a great suggestion, thanks a lot!
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1) Not really, the events are mostly self-contained. What's more important is timing the events to the location-based encounters, as mentioned in the beginning of some of the events (for example, Event 7 should usually trigger after the PCs defeat Jalila Hadjara at Area E. Hardship's Hearth; and Events 9 and 10 should bracket the exploration of area G. The Blooming Caves).
Rob, I'm thinking about making a flow chart for this, because I tend to forget about things especially when I prep for stuff well in advance. Before I do so, is there something like this already floating around a pile of scrap paper in your office? :)
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I can't wait to run this AP and I'm trying to be as organised as possible!
I'm just a little unclear about how the PCs can keep their activities as covert as possilbe, especially as the events progress in town (like event 7 with the dwarf). If they don't/can't - what should the result be? I think I have a tired brain, but I'm trying to figure out what's stopping the authorities from just showing up in force and arresting them?
Besides, surely if he can make her see how wonderful being good is she'll change her wicked ways...right?
Guys?
...
Guys?
Poor Oppian.
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So sayeth Gareth Dragonsbane, the FR paladin king of the Bloodstone Lands, about her weed-smoking neutral druid wife... ;)
(our group had a theory in the 90's about those two, and thought that the paladin probably said to his party stuff along the lines of: "the paladin's code tells me it is my duty to try, every night, to change her ways, and try as hard as can be... every day, guys... every day...")