Wrestling with White Haired Witch

[Scott Wilhelm]

I think I have hit upon a very clever use of White Hair, and I would like to vet it with the community. I have been reviewing the Forum for comments perhaps about my use: a very simple idea I'm surprised nobody seems to have thought of it before. But if you have please step forward, and lets share ideas.

Most of what I found about the White Haired Witch is all about bemoaning how underpowered it is: cool as a concept, and useful as a 1 level dip, but a totally lame character. Admittedly, I am ending up using only 1 level of WHW for my build.

So, in addition to vetting my build with the community, I would very much like people come forth with Powerful White Haired Witch builds. Really, anything that calls for more than 1 level in WHW seems like fair game. I've still only found a use for 1 level.

One thing that occurs to me about WHW that's cool is that when someone is Grappled in your hair, you aren't, so if you have Reach, you can Grapple your opponent, then step back and ravish them with spells while they struggle helplessly in your tresses.

But please do share if you think you have found something cool to do with White Hair.

[Just a Mort]

I saw someone cross it with eldritch knight. Even if the idea does turn me off, I can see the merits of it, since you give up hexes to go into WHW, so there isn't much to lose ezcept for your hair reach, if you go into a PRC that grants full casting for a better BAB. I think it involved only 4 WHW levels to get a semi decent reach on the hair.

The other route is hexcrafter magus(2 lv WHW dip) and try to convince the GM ypur prehensile hair and hair from WHW stack.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Here is my build. I really like Grappling. It is devastating against single opponents. It completely bypasses Damage Reduction, and you have a possibility of taking out single opponents in 1 round like nothing else can. With the Grab and Constrict abilities and Armor Spikes, Grappling can open up another avenue for inflicting damage.

The biggest problem with Grappling builds is that you can only focus on 1 opponent at a time. I think I figured out how to make Grappling effective against multiple opponents.

There is another problem which I didn't address, with Grapplers are comepletely undone by Freedom of Movement. Oh, well, that's what the rest of the party is for.

Allow me to introduce to you Lady Claire, the Spider Woman.

Human, Level 1, Brawler: Martial Training, Sneak Attack 1d6, Brawler's Cunning, Unarmed 1d6, Light Armor, Simple Weapons, Close Weapons, Hand Axe, Shields, Power Attack, Cleave

She will continue to wear armor and use a shield. Even though she is pretty magical, she is basically a melee character.

2B1Witch1: White Hair, Crab Familiar

Here is my clever idea. Cleave with White Hair. After each successful Attack, a Free Grappling Check is allowed. Claire will not be Grappled. She might have multiple opponents Grappled while party members run up and finish them off.

3B1W1Cavalier1: Mount, Tactician, Challenge, Coordinated Maneuvers, Medium and Heavy armor, Martial Weapons, Potion Glutton
4B1W1C2: Expert Captor, Ability +1
5B2W1C2: Improved Grapple, Brawler's Flurry, Great Cleave

So, she uses Great Cleave with her Hair to Grapple all her opponents the first round, then the second round she uses Great Cleave again and can then use Expert Captor to Tie Up all her opponents. In practice that won't work quite that way, since Tying up an opponent requires 4 successive, successful, attack rolls: 1 hit with the hair, 1 Grapple, another hit with the hair, then another Grapple. If either Grapple check fails, the opponent slips free, and if any attack rolls fail, that opponent and all the other ones downstream of that one all go free.

But still, this allows mulitple debuffs each round for a front line fighter, and that is pretty cool.

6B2W1C2Fighter1: Broken Wing Gambit

Broken Wing Gambit offers a bonus to your opponents to attack you, but if they do, you get an attack of Opportunity. So, I figure you have a victim Grappled, then he thinks he sees an opportunity, but then you get a Hair Attack as an AoO followed by a Free Grapple, and now that poor fool has been Tied Up.

7B2W1C2F2: Combat Reflexes, Greater Grapple
8B2W1C2F2Alchemist1: Bombs, Extra Bombs, Mutagens, Extracts, Throw Anything

In addition to the +2 on Grapple Checks, Greater Grapple lets Claire make another Grapple check as a Move Action. So She will use a Wand of True Strike on herself then enter melee. Then she will Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action, use her Potion Glutton Feat to take another Extract of True Strike as a Swift Action, then use Greater Grapple to Maintain the Grapple as a Move Action, using the Expert Captor ability to Tie Up her opponent. I haven't done the math with this character, but a Grappler character I had before managed to get a permanent GMB in the neighborhood of +30.

9B2W1C2F2A2: Tentacle, Arcane Strike, poison Use and Resist +2
10B2W1C2F2A3: Bombs 2d6, Swift Alchemy
11B2W1C2F2A4: Tumor Familiar, Arcane Armor Training
12B2W1C2F2A4: Aura, Lvl 1 Spells, Blessings: Destruction, Luck, Sacred Weapon 1d6, Weapon Focus Hair

Caster levels for Familiar stack with different classes that have familiars, so Arcane Strike will grant a +2 by level 11.

There's another trick I've been wanting to play. I would cast Alchemal Allocation have make the Tumor Familiar the caster. Then I would have the Familiar use the Potion of Shield Other and protect Claire, then re-meld with her, so she will be taking half Claire's damage, but that will be offset by the Tumor's Fast Healing 5.

Anyway, there she is, ready for PFS, hopefully. I'd appreciate any feedback.

[My Self]

How good is a gestalt White-Haired Witch? If you were a gestalt WHW/Snakebite Striker brawler?

[SheepishEidolon]

Reading through the abilities, the hair seems best suited to take out enemy spellcasters:

* Their CMD is bad.
* Grapple is powerful against spellcasters anyway.
* Hair's range increases, hence the witch can target protected casters later.
* Constrict makes concentration more difficult.
* Trip prevents a caster from running away and makes it an even better target for the melee guys.
* Pull is situationally useful to get the victim into someone else's full attack range.
* Strangle finally prevents many casters from starting their spells.

As with a normal witch, the main feature are the spells. The hair is just a bonus (like hexes usually are) with some situational use. Hence I'd stick with a pure white-haired witch, actually...

[Avoron]

How about a build using magical lineage (limp lash), wayang spellhunter (limp lash), Maximize Spell, and a spell-storing amulet of mighty fists? By level 5, you can store maximized limp lashes in your hair and grapple your enemies in place will quickly draining away their life. Boosting your grapple bonus will be easy enough with a valet king crab familiar, Coordinated Maneuvers, and bouncy body when possible.

[Scott Wilhelm]

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Reading through the abilities, the hair seems best suited to take out enemy spellcasters:

* Their CMD is bad.
* Grapple is powerful against spellcasters anyway.
* Hair's range increases, hence the witch can target protected casters later.
* Constrict makes concentration more difficult.
* Trip prevents a caster from running away and makes it an even better target for the melee guys.
* Pull is situationally useful to get the victim into someone else's full attack range.
* Strangle finally prevents many casters from starting their spells.

As with a normal witch, the main feature are the spells. The hair is just a bonus (like hexes usually are) with some situational use. Hence I'd stick with a pure white-haired witch, actually...

So, what spells work really well with WHW? Mudball and Web come to mind.

[Devilkiller]

As we've discussed in other threads, I'm eager to see what the long awaited Grapple FAQ has to say about maintaining the grapple during the turn when it is established (and also the round when it is established in case it happens during an AoO made when it isn't the grappler's turn)

As far as reasons to take more levels of WHW go, it might be nice to reach 4th level so that the hair would have 10' reach and gain the Trip ability (albeit only as a swift action). I suppose that Magus levels might let you use your wand of True Strike faster.

The Cleave idea is clever though I wouldn't be surprised if some DMs ruled that once you use a particular natural weapon to grapple a foe that weapon is "tied up" while you maintain the grapple.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Devilkiller wrote:

I'm eager to see what the long awaited Grapple FAQ has to say about maintaining the grapple during the turn when it is established

Indeed!

That day may never come. Tampering with the RAW might do more harm then good, creating ripples in this build and in others dependent on Feats like Grabbing Style, Kraken Style, and Turtle Style. Also, what will it mean for PFS Characters who already use this? We are talking about a Core Rulebook Feat, here. Will they be grandfathered, or will they be ruled out of existence. Neither is a good outcome. If they do mess with Grappling further, lets hope they are careful!

[Thewms]

I am not so sure that this would work.

PRD Combat section wrote:

If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

I think the intention is to keep the two people involved adjacent to avoid shenanigans. Also I am not familiar with the WHW. Is it spelled out that you do not gain the Grappled condition when grappling with your hair?** Which I guess brings up something I hadn't thought of...

Grappling wrote:

Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature,trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4

penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty
on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except
those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition,
grappled creatures
can take no action that requires two
hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast
a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s
CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell. Grappled
creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

so you wouldn't have to worry about the casting AoO from the person you are grappling to begin with but would you have to make a concentration check to do so because you are grappled as well(just controlling it)? What would be the DC?

Edit: **Learned to read :p I still think you would need to be adjacent, though.

[Faelyn]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Devilkiller wrote:

I'm eager to see what the long awaited Grapple FAQ has to say about maintaining the grapple during the turn when it is established

Indeed!

That day may never come. Tampering with the RAW might do more harm then good, creating ripples in this build and in others dependent on Feats like Grabbing Style, Kraken Style, and Turtle Style. Also, what will it mean for PFS Characters who already use this? We are talking about a Core Rulebook Feat, here. Will they be grandfathered, or will they be ruled out of existence. Neither is a good outcome. If they do mess with Grappling further, lets hope they are careful!

It's not really tampering with RAW... it's clarifying a rather ambiguous wording of the grappling rules. Also, I don't see why clarifying whether or not you can Maintain a grapple during the same round it was Initiated would change anything about any of the aforementioned style feats...

The only thing I can see is Snapping Turtle Clutch; initiating a grapple as an immediate action on a missed attack. Even if Paizo rules that you can only Initiative a grapple in one round and then Maintain it the next round, that literally does nothing to change Snapping Turtle Clutch, because you're initiating the grapple on another creature's turn so you cannot do anything further from there anyway...

[Devilkiller]

I think that if there is a restriction on maintaining a grapple too quickly it should probably be based on the grappling creature's turn rather than the round. Otherwise you can get into some pretty weird situations where you use Grab to establish a grapple with an AoO early in the round but then aren't allowed to maintain it when your turn comes up. This sort of thing seems likely to come up a lot with WHW when the hair gains Reach. I agree that a WHW with Reach would end up pulling a grappled foe into an adjacent space, but it seems unclear whether a grapple established during an AoO can be maintained in the same round. I'd personally allow it, especially since an enemy who gets caught by the AoO during a Move action presumably should have a Standard action left to try to escape the grapple before getting pinned etc. Of course that could vary depending on what the enemy did on his or her turn (like if you got caught casting a spell or making a melee attack and then trying to move away - those are calculated risks that you took though)

[Scott Wilhelm]

My Self wrote:

How good is a gestalt White-Haired Witch? If you were a gestalt WHW/Snakebite Striker brawler?

I've worked out a build or 2 that combines Natural Attacks with Sneak Attack. I have some reservations about how WHW comebines with the Snakebite Striker.

Once you are in a position to do Sneak Attack Damage, it behooves you to make as many attacks as possible. My first thought is be a Tengu with Claws, a Bite, and White Hair, mabe getting a Helm of the Mammoth Lord when you can afford to.

Since you have a level in Brawler already, you might want to incorporate 1 or 2 Unarmed Strikes into your Full Attack Action. Some GMs might argue, though, that incorporating Unarmed Strikes into the Full Attack Action would demote your 5 natural attacks from primary to secondary. They are wrong: a Brawler's Unarmed Strikes count as Natural weapons for the purposes of effects that improve natural weapons, but it can be very unpleasant arguing about the rules with an activist GM. A more conservative build would be to remain a regular Brawler. You don't get that 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage, but if you have to, you can use your Martial Flexibility to give yourself the Mulitattack Feat, reducing your -5 Attack penalty to a -2. The damage penalty won't matter much if your focus is on Sneak Attack Damage. If yours is not such an Activist GM, then you can still use Martial Flexibility to give yourself a Sneak Attack Damage Feat like Precise Strike or Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

You might decide to not be a White Haired Witch and instead take the Prehensile Hair and Nails hexes. These are Secondary Attacks anyway, and you don't worry about what effects combining Unarmed Strikes have. But then, you will definitely want to get the Mulitattack Feat somehow. I recommend Martial Flexibility because you can't simply take Multiattack in PFS.

My preferred way to lock in Sneak Attack Damage is with the Dirty Tricks Combat Maneuver to make my opponents Blind and therefore lose their Dex mods. I'm favoring Ninja for Sneak Attack Damage, using your Ninja Tricks to get yourself one of your Combat Feats: Dirty Fighting, Improved, Quick, and Great dirty trick, and getting the rest the old-fashioned way. Meanwhile you get +1d6 SA in between those Ninja Tricks.

There is a nifty Level 1 Witch Spell called Mudball, which makes your opponents Blind as a ranged touch attack. Use the Ninja Vanishing Trick and they are Blinded as a Ranged Touch Attack vs. Flat-Footed AC. Spells like Fog Cloud, Pyrotechnics(is that even a Witch Spell?), and Stinking Cloud are problematic because Concealment negates Sneak Attack. I think you can get around that if you are an Ifrit. They can gain Smokesight as—I forget which—a racial trait or feat.

In addition to Snakebite Striker and Ninja, other ways to get Sneak Attack damage that catch my eye include Bounty Hunter Slayer, Vivisectionist Alchemist, and Arcane Trickster. That last seems particularly interesting to this thread because most of the ideas in this post are not so much for Witch builds as builds that use a little witchcraft.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Just a Mort wrote:

I saw someone cross it with eldritch knight. Even if the idea does turn me off, I can see the merits of it,

Okay, this seems promising.

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Reading through the abilities, the hair… Their CMD is bad.

Largely because of this. Eldritch Knights get a +1 BAB every level. The low Attack Roll and Grapple Mod for attack and Defense is mostly a problem solved.

Just a Mort wrote:

you give up hexes to go into WHW, so there isn't much to lose ezcept for your hair reach… I think it involved only 4 WHW levels to get a semi decent reach on the hair.

Yup, you need 5 levels in Witch before your first level in Eldritch Knight, and by then you have 10' of Reach and Tripping with the Hair. So,

1Brawler1: BAB +1, Feat
2B1White Haired Witch1: CL1, Familiar, White Hair
3B1W2: BAB+2 CL2, Feat, Constrict
4B1W3: CL3, Lvl 2 Spells, +1 Ability, Trip
5B1W4: BAB+3, CL4, 10' Reach, Feat
6B1W5: CL5, Lvl 3 Spells
7B1W5Eldritch Knight1: BAB +4, Feat
8B1W5E2: BAB+5, CL6
9B1W5E3: BAB+6, CL7, Lvl 4 Spells, Feat

This is a character with respectable BABs and Caster Level, so potentially a formidable Grappler: perhaps not as formidable as she would be if she were focused on it, but she gets a lot for a little.

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Hair's range increases, hence the witch can target protected casters later.

She can hit someone with her hair with 10' Reach, use Greater Trip to attack with the Hair again as an Attack of Opportunity,

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Trip prevents a caster from running away and makes it an even better target for the melee guys.

let the second hair attack include a Grapple, drawing her victim close, provoking attacks of opporunity from allies and pulling her into range for the other AoO from Vicious Stomp.

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Pull is situationally useful to get the victim into someone else's full attack range.

The next round, she can Move back and cast some spell, getting an AoO with her hair if her victim tries to close in. Plus, she is a pretty high level caster. Not as high as she would be if she focused, but she gets a lot for a little.

This looks promising! This is the makings of a powerful build that requires 5 levels of White Haired Witch, and even after you aren't technically taking levels in Witch, you are still developing as one through your Prestige Class. Well done, Mort and Eidolon!

[Scott Wilhelm]

I wrote:

you can still use Martial Flexibility to give yourself a Sneak Attack Damage Feat like Precise Strike or Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

Oops, no you can't. ASA is not a Combat Feat, and Precise Strike is problematic in the way of Teamwork Feats. Still, you can use Martial Flexibility to get something good.

[Imbicatus]

Instead of Eldritch Knight, I would go with Mystery Cultist of Falayna. +4 to grapple and CMD from the obedience, and early access to the boons.

It's too bad you have to go Mystery Cultist instead of Evangelist, but the +4 grapple is worth it.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Imbicatus wrote:

Instead of Eldritch Knight, I would go with Mystery Cultist of Falayna. +4 to grapple and CMD from the obedience, and early access to the boons.

It's too bad you have to go Mystery Cultist instead of Evangelist, but the +4 grapple is worth it.

What's a Mystery Cultist? Is that one of those new psychic/occult classes?

[My Self]

No, it's an older prestige class that requires one of those obedience feats.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Avoron wrote:

How about a build using magical lineage (limp lash), wayang spellhunter (limp lash), Maximize Spell, and a spell-storing amulet of mighty fists? By level 5, you can store maximized limp lashes in your hair and grapple your enemies in place will quickly draining away their life. Boosting your grapple bonus will be easy enough with a valet king crab familiar, Coordinated Maneuvers, and bouncy body when possible.

Wow, Limp Lash is pretty powerful. How about taking 2 levels in Ninja and 3 in Witch. Use the Vanishing Trick then cast Limp Lash as a Ranged Touch Attack vs Flatfooted AC?

Or you can cast Limp Lash, Grapple with your hair, drawing him in to adjacent to you, but then 5' step back, so that if he does break the Grapple, he has no prospect of Grappling you. Then Grapple again, this time to Pin or Tie Up. If he escapes, you can keep withdrawing and keep trying to Grapple while the Limp Lash keeps weakening him.

[Scott Wilhelm]

For the top build I offered on the thread, I need to change the level 11 Feat to Rapid Grappler.

If I begin the round adjacent to many opponents, I can use White Hair and Great Cleave to make Hair Attacks and then use the Hair Ability to Initiate Grapples with everyone I hit. That is a Standard Action. I can then use Greater Grapple as a Move Action to Tie Up one of those opponents. I can then use Rapid Grappler to Tie Up a second! Plus, any remaining adjacent opponents are possibly still Grappled!

[Taenia]

The problem with the White Haired Witch comes from trying to build a grapple build with a low CMD on an Int based character I would Suggest the following.

S 10, D 16, C 12, I 18, W 14, Ch 6 20 pt Build with a Tiefling use favored class bonus on Magus for extra pool points.

Lvl 1 Unchained Monk
Lvl 2 White Hair Witch 1
Lvl 3 White Hair Witch 2
Lvl 4+ Kensai Magus, focus on Hair (not sure about this but it doesn't really matter, worse case go Cestus or Unarmed)

Unchained Monk provides Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple plus Wis to AC and CMD

White Haired Witch gives you the Hair to grapple + constrict

Kensai Magus is the focus from lvl 4 on. First you get Int to AC per level so your AC/CMD go up pretty quickly. You can enchant your hair with Arcane Pool but most importantly you have access to the following arcana:

Arcane Accuracy This provides an insight bonus to hit which also applies to grapples allowing you to double up on Intelligence.

Maneuver Master lets you add your Magus level full on for one maneuver.

Defensive Combat Training, Deific Obedience Falayna, can really pump your CMD/Grapple CMB.

At level 9 (Monk 1, WHW 2, Magus 6) you will have a Grapple CMB of
+36 (+8 BAB + 7 Int + 2 Imp Grapple + 2 Gr Grapple + 4 Deific Obedience + 1 Bred for War Trait + 2 Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver + 1 Armbands of the Brawler + 2 Crab Familiar +7 Arcane Accuracy)

CMD of 44 (10 Base + 9 Lvl + 4 Dex (belt) + 7 Int + 3 Wis (Ioun Stone) + 2 Insight Dusty Rose in Wayfinder + 2 Ring of Protection + 2 Imp Grapple + 4 Deific Obedience + 1 Dodge)

Plus if there is something you can't grapple, Arcane Accuracy and hit it with your hair for Int to hit/damage, even spell combat for flurry effect with Natural Spell Combat arcana.

[Scott Wilhelm]

My Self wrote:

No, it's an older prestige class that requires one of those obedience feats.

Imbicatus wrote:

Mystery Cultist of Falayna.

Taenia wrote:

Deific Obedience Falayna,

Aw, that's 3 of you now! Do you think perhaps you could favor us with a link to Falayna, her Feat, and that Prestige Class? I haven't been able to find it. Both a description and some mention of its sourcebook would be much appreciated.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Taenia wrote:

The problem with the White Haired Witch comes from trying to build a grapple build with a low CMD on an Int based character I would Suggest the following.

S 10, D 16, C 12, I 18, W 14, Ch 6 20 pt Build with a Tiefling use favored class bonus on Magus for extra pool points.

Lvl 1 Unchained Monk
Lvl 2 White Hair Witch 1
Lvl 3 White Hair Witch 2
Lvl 4+ Kensai Magus, focus on Hair (not sure about this but it doesn't really matter, worse case go Cestus or Unarmed)

Unchained Monk provides Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple plus Wis to AC and CMD

White Haired Witch gives you the Hair to grapple + constrict

Kensai Magus is the focus from lvl 4 on. First you get Int to AC per level so your AC/CMD go up pretty quickly. You can enchant your hair with Arcane Pool but most importantly you have access to the following arcana:

Arcane Accuracy This provides an insight bonus to hit which also applies to grapples allowing you to double up on Intelligence.

Maneuver Master lets you add your Magus level full on for one maneuver.

Defensive Combat Training, Deific Obedience Falayna, can really pump your CMD/Grapple CMB.

At level 9 (Monk 1, WHW 2, Magus 6) you will have a Grapple CMB of
+36 (+8 BAB + 7 Int + 2 Imp Grapple + 2 Gr Grapple + 4 Deific Obedience + 1 Bred for War Trait + 2 Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver + 1 Armbands of the Brawler + 2 Crab Familiar +7 Arcane Accuracy)

CMD of 44 (10 Base + 9 Lvl + 4 Dex (belt) + 7 Int + 3 Wis (Ioun Stone) + 2 Insight Dusty Rose in Wayfinder + 2 Ring of Protection + 2 Imp Grapple + 4 Deific Obedience + 1 Dodge)

Plus if there is something you can't grapple, Arcane Accuracy and hit it with your hair for Int to hit/damage, even spell combat for flurry effect with Natural Spell Combat arcana.

My last grappling character actually had a pretty low CMD. She depended upon quickly getting her opponents Tied Up before they have a chance to counter. The build I put together here probably would have a halfway decent CMD, but it's still probably a problem.

I like where you're going with Magus. You're the first person to get me to sort of like Kensai and Unchained Monk.

[Taenia]

Check out this link to Falayna.

[Faelyn]

And the feat you're looking for is Celestial Obedience. That gives you access to Falayn's Obedience option. It is really one of the best Grappling feat options outside of the Standard Grapple chains.

[Imbicatus]

Taenia wrote:

Check out this link to Falayna.

And here is the info on the Mystery Cultist. Both the class and the deity are in Chronicles of the Righteous.

[Artifix]

I would think you could grapple your enemy with your hair, and since you don't have the grapple condition keep them grappled while shooting spells at them, that worked for me atleast.

[UnArcaneElection]

If you can manage to fit in 9 levels of Tetori Monk, you can overcome Freedom of Movement on opponents. Unfortunately, this doesn't work with Unchained Monk, and it doesn't work with PFS due to requiring too many total levels (unless you have some kind of PFS boon that lets you go significantly past 12th level).

If you are going for an Eldritch Knight build (not related to the idea of going Tetori Monk), you might as well go for 6 levels of White-Haired Witch instead of 5, because this gets you the Pull ability and doesn't hurt your BAB and things that depend upon it. Also, Brawler with no other martial class is not good enough to qualify you for Eldritch Knight, because Eldritch Knight requires proficiency with all martial weapons, and Brawler and all of its currently available archetypes do not give you this(*).

(*)On an almost-unrelated note, while looking this up, I noticed that Shield Champion's Weapon/Armor Proficiency appears to have been Errata'd so that it works right without needing to use a proficiency feat. This is the only archetype whose entry in the archetype table lists changing Weapon/Armor Proficiency, but it still doesn't qualify you for Eldritch Knight.

[Scott Wilhelm]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

If you can manage to fit in 9 levels of Tetori Monk, you can overcome Freedom of Movement on opponents. Unfortunately, this doesn't work with Unchained Monk, and it doesn't work with PFS due to requiring too many total levels (unless you have some kind of PFS boon that lets you go significantly past 12th level).

I was just thinking you might counter Freedom of Movement with 6 levels in Alchemist and Dispelling Bombs. No given bomb is particularly likely to succeed, but you get a lot of Bombs to try with. My grappling builds call for 4 levels in Alchemist anyway to get the Tentacle and the King Crab Tumor Familiar, so we're only talking about 2 more to get Dispelling Bombs. Maybe another 2 more to get Fast Bombs, and spam the caster/ring of Free Action wearer with Dispel Magic.

Now we are talking about 8 levels compared with the Tetori's 9, but we are also talking about spending 4 extra levels to get the effect instead of 9: I might not have taken any levels in Monk at all.

[Onyx Tanuki]

Scott already commented on this, but for anyone else interested, I tried this out using an evangelist and it looks rather promising. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t7vd?WitchMagus-hybrid-build#9 It's in the second spoiler tag, and while I went with a different deity, you could easily make a case for using Falayna and her obedience bonuses, since she doesn't seem to have any such bonuses listed for the evangelist class. If nothing else, you'd at least get them at 12th/16th/20th like anyone else who would take deific obedience.

What makes the evangelist really beautiful for this, though, is that you literally only need to dip 1 level of witch, because evangelist can be made to count for the levels of witch class features. So you're essentially leveling a witch, except with 75% BAB instead of 50% and trading good Will for good Ref. You could just go 8 evangelist, 1 witch, and 11 in whatever other full BAB classes you like, and it'll grant you the entire set of white hair's abilities. Or, you could go witch 3 evangelist 10, and you'd not only get an extra 5 feet of range for your hair, but you'd also nab evangelist's capstone, which grants you another natural attack or a new form of movement, as well as +4 to one stat (which would likely be Int here to improve your white hair's grapple CMB and CMD). Keep in mind though that you need to be 5th to qualify for evangelist at all, but the requirements really couldn't be easier to meet.

One thing I'm wondering is how viable barbarian or bloodrager might be here? Since white hair is a supernatural ability, I'd think it would be usable during a rage, right? And if so, the synergy between the hair grapple, greater/rapid grapple, and the raging grapple rage power is simply succulent. Also, abyssal blood increases your size, which should double your hair's range (useful in a pinch if you haven't prepared enlarge person for the day). Additionally, smasher can be used if you're going with a sunder-heavy build, and the spirit totem line could help rack up additional damage on anything you've pulled in with a hair grapple. Brutal pugilist seems the best archetype for this; it won't get quite as much out of grappling with hair but it's still a decent bonus to be able to grapple huge creatures.

As for bloodragers, I'm seeing some nice benefits from abberant, black blood, arcane, and abyssal bloodlines, and the blood conduit archetype does nearly the same thing as I was going for, only a little differently, and primalist lets you pick up rage powers in place of bloodline powers, which IMO is great if you go to bloodrager 8.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Faelyn wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Devilkiller wrote:

I'm eager to see what the long awaited Grapple FAQ has to say about maintaining the grapple during the turn when it is established

Indeed!

That day may never come. Tampering with the RAW might do more harm then good, creating ripples in this build and in others dependent on Feats like Grabbing Style, Kraken Style, and Turtle Style. Also, what will it mean for PFS Characters who already use this? We are talking about a Core Rulebook Feat, here. Will they be grandfathered, or will they be ruled out of existence. Neither is a good outcome. If they do mess with Grappling further, lets hope they are careful!

It's not really tampering with RAW... it's clarifying a rather ambiguous wording of the grappling rules. Also, I don't see why clarifying whether or not you can Maintain a grapple during the same round it was Initiated would change anything about any of the aforementioned style feats...

The only thing I can see is Snapping Turtle Clutch; initiating a grapple as an immediate action on a missed attack. Even if Paizo rules that you can only Initiative a grapple in one round and then Maintain it the next round, that literally does nothing to change Snapping Turtle Clutch, because you're initiating the grapple on another creature's turn so you cannot do anything further from there anyway...

I haven't seen the wording of the Grappling rules as ambiguous for a long time even though a large number of contributors to the forums are uncomfortable with it. The rules could have been worded better, but I really don't think they mean more than 1 thing.

I summed up how Greater Grapple works on this thread.

[Devilkiller]

A rule saying you can't normally maintain the grapple in the round when you initiate it exists, but it is in a non-Core source. Meanwhile the Core rules don't really address the issue. Mark Seifter posted something in another thread which seemed pretty ambiguous to me. I wouldn't call the matter of how it is supposed to work officially settled yet, but even if it were settled it seems that lately Paizo has been relatively willing to go back and change things via FAQ or errata.

[Finlanderboy]

Well some features to worry about with the White haired witch.

She has to hit before she can grapple with her hair. Her hair uses strength to hit with initially. There are ways to change that, but base the ability works like that. I see herolab characters come across wrong on this. Now a player can say they just grapple with their hair, but the rules do not specifically allow this and a DM could say no, you need to smack them first.

Also no matter what the reach on the hair is, to complete the grapple they need to be placed in a square next to you. I DMed someone that thought the enemy stayed away from them. So when wights came at her she grappled one i placed it next to her it smacked and level drained her.

Now some neat things I have seen a WHW do is have magus levels is use chill touch with rimed spells to debuff further.

The WHW has uses, but needs to be made very well to make it worthwhile.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Devilkiller wrote:

A rule saying you can't normally maintain the grapple in the round when you initiate it exists, but it is in a non-Core source.

If your non-Core source is Unchained, well, that is not only non-Core, it is not an official rules source at all, but an alternative rules source, and most of it is not PFS legal.

Devilkiller wrote:

Meanwhile the Core rules don't really address the issue.

Sure it does. It's the Core Rulebook: it explains how grappling works.

People can always invent reasons to supposethat almost any set of Pathfinder rules won't work in some way that someone else supposes, including Mark. But I am very confident my application of the Grappling rules explained in this thread is square with RAW. I have examined this closely and have vetted this extensively on this forum and other venues.

[Onyx Tanuki]

Devilkiller wrote:

A rule saying you can't normally maintain the grapple in the round when you initiate it exists, but it is in a non-Core source. Meanwhile the Core rules don't really address the issue. Mark Seifter posted something in another thread which seemed pretty ambiguous to me. I wouldn't call the matter of how it is supposed to work officially settled yet, but even if it were settled it seems that lately Paizo has been relatively willing to go back and change things via FAQ or errata.

From what I'm reading in the thread Scott linked, whether or not you can maintain a grapple depends on two things:

- Do you follow Unchained rules?
- Do you view it as "You may do X unless a rules states you may not do X" or "You may not do X unless a rules states you may do X"?

If you follow Unchained rules, or if you rule that you can't do something unless there's a rule specifically stating you may, then yeah, you wouldn't be able to maintain a grapple with greater grapple until the next round. If you don't follow Unchained rules and you believe that you can do anything that the rules don't specifically state you cannot do, then you should be able to use greater grapple to maintain a grapple that you've just initiated, so long as you have a move action with which to maintain with. You don't get the +5 to that particular chance, though, since the core rules for grappling state that's when the bonus kicks in, and if you lose that maintain, your grappled foe breaks free, so in my opinion it's still balanced to allow it.

But this is just bringing up issues that have already been discussed. Unless you're playing a PFS game, it's really up to table rules and house rules.

Finlanderboy wrote:

Well some features to worry about with the White haired witch.

She has to hit before she can grapple with her hair. Her hair uses strength to hit with initially. There are ways to change that, but base the ability works like that. I see herolab characters come across wrong on this. Now a player can say they just grapple with their hair, but the rules do not specifically allow this and a DM could say no, you need to smack them first.

Also no matter what the reach on the hair is, to complete the grapple they need to be placed in a square next to you. I DMed someone that thought the enemy stayed away from them. So when wights came at her she grappled one i placed it next to her it smacked and level drained her.

Now some neat things I have seen a WHW do is have magus levels is use chill touch with rimed spells to debuff further.

The WHW has uses, but needs to be made very well to make it worthwhile.

That's an unfortunate part of the WHW; unless you're just dipping into it, it's running off of a full caster's BAB. And it does indeed make more sense - especially as a dip - to focus on Str over Int, since that improves you chances to hit with your hair. However, focusing on Int will make it easier to initiate and maintain grapples, and if you take weapon finesse and/or use an amulet of mighty fists with agile or guided, that'll allow you to use Dex for your hair's attack rolls, and that'll be incredibly helpful since Dex also adds to your AC (which in turn helps out when you drag a target near you with the grapple). Better yet, because a scimitar is an ideal weapon for anyone doing this to deliver charges of chill touch to enemies (assuming proficiency with it), the dervish dance feat is great for this. Without martial proficiency, you're kinda stuck with a cestus or a dagger (although a sickle could be useful if you like tripping your foes as well, especially since you can do so with your hair).

I should probably add that as written, no, you can't grapple, trip, or pull with your hair unless you hit with it. That's a big part of why my WHW/Hexcrafter/Evangelist build is both Str and Int. Kinda unfortunate that I don't have the feat economy to pick up weapon finesse because Dex/Int seems like it'd be better.

That actually brings me to a question: what kind of damage does the hair deal? I don't think it could be argued against that her hair is a light weapon (since it's considered a natural weapon, which are light weapons by definition) or that it has the standard crit range of 20/2x (since it doesn't state any crit range). You could assume that the hair is just being whipped like a tentacle (and thus just deals bludgeoning) but, considering this is an archetype that has mastered control over the hair in ways someone with a prehensile hair hex could only dream, what's stopping a witch from shaping her hair into an ax blade to deal slashing damage, or hardening it into a spike to deal piercing? In that vein, how would you handle a witch who got a crit on her piercing hair and applied impaling critical to it? Also, it states that it's a primary, so does that change if I have the witch wielding a manufactured weapon, or another natural weapon like a bite or claws?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Finlanderboy wrote:

Well some features to worry about with the White haired witch.

She has to hit before she can grapple with her hair. Her hair uses strength to hit with initially. There are ways to change that, but base the ability works like that.

That is fair to say. The way to "use your hair to Grapple" entails making a melee attack with the hair which then allows you to make a Grapple check.

Nothing is stopping you from making a regular Grapple Check, and you aren't not using your hair. For instance, if you have a Shield in 1 hand, you shouldn't suffer a -4 for not having 2 hands free: I think you will have to look hard to find a GM who would say that your White Hair would not count a a "hand" in this case. On the other hand, an Amulet of Mighty Fists you might be wearing might not modify your Grapple check unless you are using your hair the other way, to attack, then Grapple.

And as to ways to change the need for Strength for my own build, I had thought of taking Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers, so that I could dump strength, but the build I posted early on this thread calls for Great Cleave, which will require a Strength of at least 13, so a MAD build seems unavoidable.

Finlanderboy wrote:

Also no matter what the reach on the hair is, to complete the grapple they need to be placed in a square next to you.

True, but the rules don't say that once you have placed them in a square next to you, you can't then take a 5' Step away. Even if you don't, when you have the creature Grappled in your Hair, you are not Grappled yourself: they take the penalty to attack, and you keep your Dex Mod.

Finlanderboy wrote:

The WHW has uses, but needs to be made very well to make it worthwhile.

Well, how well do you think I made my White Hair Wrestling build further up this page?

[Devilkiller]

Yes, I was referring to Unchained, but the way it refers to still not being able to maintain the grapple until the round after you establish it strongly implies to me that is a restriction which already exists without the Unchained rules. You're free to disagree and obviously do. Mark's previous post on the matter was pretty inconclusive (and he could have been in error either way)

I keep posting about it not so much to change your opinion (which seems unlikely) as to keep some discussion going in the hopes that it might prompt an official response. Perhaps I'd be as well off posting "I want grapple FAQ! I want grapple FAQ!" You might not agree that there's any need for grapple FAQ though the fact Mark said he's writing grapple FAQ gave me the impression that Paizo thinks it would be a good idea - if perhaps not a matter of pressing importance.

[Onyx Tanuki]

Devilkiller wrote:

Yes, I was referring to Unchained, but the way it refers to still not being able to maintain the grapple until the round after you establish it strongly implies to me that is a restriction which already exists without the Unchained rules. You're free to disagree and obviously do. Mark's previous post on the matter was pretty inconclusive (and he could have been in error either way)

I keep posting about it not so much to change your opinion (which seems unlikely) as to keep some discussion going in the hopes that it might prompt an official response. Perhaps I'd be as well off posting "I want grapple FAQ! I want grapple FAQ!" You might not agree that there's any need for grapple FAQ though the fact Mark said he's writing grapple FAQ gave me the impression that Paizo thinks it would be a good idea - if perhaps not a matter of pressing importance.

That's kinda what I meant when I said it depends on whether you view it as "It doesn't say you can, so you can't" versus "It doesn't say you can't, so you can". I'm gonna get kinda long-winded here, so please don't mind the wall of text. Before I say anything though, let me just quote the relevant rules in spoilers:

Core Grapple Rules:

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition. If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Move

You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Damage

You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Pin

You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Tie Up

If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

Greater Grapple (Combat):

You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Rapid Grappler (Combat):

Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check at a –5 penalty.

Dirty Fighting (Combat):

When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.

Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.

White Hair (Su):

At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.

At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, a white-haired witch’s hair adds 5 feet to its reach, to a maximum of 30 feet at 20th level.

The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature.

Grab (Ex):

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

So, assuming we're making a grapple with the greater grapple feat, I can see where the argument sets in. As it's written, greater grapple allows us to make checks to maintain a grapple once we've successfully initiated a grapple. Since greater grapple allows up to two maintain actions in a single turn, and we've taken zero so far, we should be allowed one on the same turn so long as it's used to move, damage, or pin our target. It isn't an unreasonable argument to say we can't do that, but to do so you'd need to argue that we're not allowed to make that action because nothing says we ARE allowed. However, as the rules are written, I don't see what else would be stopping us from being allowed that check. Hell, if we're somehow given two move actions, then we could reasonably be allowed TWO grapple maintenance checks that initiation round, since greater grapple specifically states we're allowed two, so long as they are to move, damage, or pin. However, I don't think there's any way to do that aside from either being allowed your move action as a swift action or having the grapple come from an attack you've made as a swift, free, or immediate action, and you may have to have some means to use a move action in place of a standard action.

What does this restrict, though? Well, unfortunately, it seems like that may keep us from tying a foe up unless the part stating damage/move/pin is just giving examples. Personally I'd give it a pass because the rules for a tie up action state that it works like a pin, but some people may not see "just like a pin" equating to "is a pin" and deny the chance to tie someone up as a move action, or to make two grapple checks and use either to tie up.

What you could potentially restrict are other actions occurring. The rules state that the white haired witch is not grappled, but technically it doesn't state that this changes the rules of the grapple any. There's three ways we could go: stick to the regular grapple rules (which means that even if we grapple with our hair, we must do so barehanded, and moving away from the foe means we're breaking the grapple), we could go with monsters' grab rules which are as close to what a white-haired witch does as we can find elsewhere in the rules (which, as noted above, make some really drastic changes to grapples performed only with one lib, such as one's hair), or we could just adjust the rules as makes sense for what's going on here (the witch would be able to move as far as her hair's reach away from a grappled enemy before having to release it and she'd be able to perform and maintain grapples while holding objects). I like the common sense approach honestly, but it's easy to claim that as house rules and just stick to grapple rules as written.

Now there's two more feats relevant to this type of build I can discuss: rapid grappler and dirty fighting. Rapid grappler adds to greater grapple, allowing a check to be made as a swift action at -5 CMB, for up to three maintain checks per round. Something important to note is that, for this to work, you'd have to agree that on the turn you initiate a grapple, you've taken zero actions to maintain a grapple, and therefore can use greater grapple. This should allow one to pin their opponent in two circumstances: either by having the grapple come from a hair attack that's triggered as an AoO or swift action (under the same restriction of likely having to have a means to convert a standard action into a move action), or having the grapple come from a standard action. Either way, we initiate the grapple then make two subsequent grapple checks, first to pin, second to tie up. Something to keep in mind is that we DO NOT get the +5 to maintain checks until the next turn begins. This much is pretty clear.

Dirty fighting is relevant because it removes two of greater grapple's requirements: improved unarmed combat and improved grapple. While most grapplers would suffer quite a bit from this, a white-haired witch wouldn't; she can count as flanking from further away due to her hair's reach extending her AoO threat range, and white hair already allows her to make her grapple without provoking an additional AoO, so it's not too difficult for her to get the +4 bonus to CMB from it. As I'm reading it, the special part of this ability also means she can take greater grapple, using dirty fighting to cover improved grapple. However, this is something I may be wrong on, since the wording is a little muddy, and could instead mean that the specific things it counts for also count as the same for feats that require an improved combat maneuver feat, as opposed to saying it counts as an improved combat maneuver feat itself for such purposes. Even if you're allowed to skip out on improved grapple as a result of this, keep in mind that you'd be losing 2 CMB, and with the white haired witch's BAB being so low, it might be wiser to take improved grappling anyway. Regardless, it's better than taking improved unarmed combat unless you really want to use the witch's fists (which actually would be a viable choice if you're going to give her an agile or guided amulet of mighty fists).

Anyway, I've gone long enough. I honestly don't want to argue the grapple rules here, so if you absolutely have to say something and can't hold it in, just start a new topic in the rules forum, or at least note me to tell me how infuriatingly wrong I am, but otherwise, please let's just keep it on the subject of white-haired witch. I'll be putting a second post up dedicated to my opinions on equipment, so stay tuned.

[Onyx Tanuki]

Alright, so I'm seeing three potential stat builds here: Str/Int, Dex/Int, or Wis/Int. The belt, headband, and body or neck slots are going to be different depending on the build you're going for.

For a Str/Int build, you're not going to need a specific body or neck item unless you want to do something special with your hair attacks. All you need here is a belt of giant strength and headband of vast intelligence. This is probably your best bet if you want to be useful early on.

The other two options are going to require one of two items: a +1 (or more) agile/guided bodywrap of mighty strikes, or an agile/guided amulet of mighty fists. The bodywrap ends up the cheaper option overall, but keep in mind that the amulet doesn't need to be +1 to have agile or guided applied to it, so it's cheaper as an early option. One could feasibly take both, so long as none of the abilities overlap and the amulet doesn't add an enhancement bonus (since I believe that'd waste any enhancement bonus granted by one item or the other).

For Dex/Int, we'll be going with an agile bodywrap or amulet along with a belt of incredible dexterity and a headband of vast intelligence. What's nice about this is that it means a bit of a bump to your AC, which is going to help you dodge enemies attacks just a little better, and won't result in losing any CMD.

For Wis/Int, we use guided for the bodywrap or amulet, but rather than using a belt, we'll have to use an Int/Wis headband of mental prowess. While this is a lot more expensive than a belt and headband for a single stat boost each, it leaves our belt slot open for something like anaconda's coils, victor's belt, or belt of superior maneuvers. It also means we get lower CMD, unfortunately, and while it promises better Will, witches already get high Will saves. I guess in this case it really depends on if taking a belt other than one meant to buff a physical ability score boost is worth it to you.

Other things that might be good:

Hands - Form-fixing gauntlets are decent but situational. Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver give you an untyped bonus. Gauntlets of twisting vines give you a circumstance bonus so you may not be able to use it, but they can also cut a lot of crap by tying up a pinned foe automatically for you. Inescapable gloves seem pretty powerful, but considering it requires mythic crafter, I'm not sure how available a set would be outside of mythic campaigns.

Chest - If you take some levels in hexcrafter and nab one of the hexes it could work with, cackling hag's blouse could be useful in keeping your debuffs active.

Body - While I'd personally prefer stacking the amulet and bodywraps, the witching gown is a pretty nice buff to your saves, along with the automatic glamer effect and spite spell.

Head - Magician's hat seems pretty nifty. Ironically, grappler's mask is useless for us unless we're going to make heavy uses of bull rushes.

Feet - Gladiator's sandals would require a decent initiative but provide a nice bonus if you spring a surprise attack on an enemy.

Ioun Stones - A wayfinder with a dusty rose prism is pretty much necessary I'd say, as would be a violet thorny.

I'm sure I'm missing dozens of wondrous items that'd be helpful, but the above are the ones that really stuck out to me.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Devilkiller wrote:

Yes, I was referring to Unchained, but the way it refers to still not being able to maintain the grapple until the round after you establish it strongly implies to me that is a restriction which already exists without the Unchained rules.

I'm not contesting you about what was said or intended within the text of Unchained. I don't think I even disagree with you. But the text itself is an alternative rule set, not an official one. The parts of it that were referred to in the thread I linked to are disallowed in PFS. And so that implied restriction Mark made is therefore merely Mark's opinion. To make his opinion stick, Mark needs to either explicitly point to the rule he was hinting at, or he needs to change the rules.

Devilkiller wrote:

Mark's previous post on the matter was pretty inconclusive (and he could have been in error either way)

And as you said, he seems so far to have done neither. He may yet. .

Devilkiller wrote:

change your opinion (which seems unlikely)

Admittedly, my opinion has already evolved from a crucible of severe testing, but it is important to my sense of self that I am an open-minded fellow. You were a contributor to the thread I just linked to on this thread, you know what arguments we already had. If you feel you have more to argue on the subject, then lets start a new thread.

Constitutionally, philosophically, within the context of this forum and the Rules Forum, I believe in interpreting the text of the rules as written to the letter, even in cases where I am certain that the writer intended something very different or even the opposite. When somebody figures out a way of playing a game that its creators did not envision, it elevates the game. I'm sure Bobby Fisher thought of things that the creators of Chess did not think of. And I don't think Serena Williams plays tennis the way Henry V did in the 15th century, but do you really think either hurt the games they played with what they brought? And what's this nonsense about people building airplanes out of aluminum? That's not what the Wright Brothers intended at all!

Something else to bear in mind when considering my arguments on this forum. I am almost always referring to Pathfinder Society. In any other campaign, the GM has absolute authority, so I would not go on the forums for rules clarifications. I would go to him (or her or them)!

Onyx Tanuki wrote:

I said it depends on whether you view it as "It doesn't say you can, so you can't" versus "It doesn't say you can't, so you can".

I have to weigh in as the latter. Paizo Publishing gave us this lovely new edition of EGG's genius, and good on them, but I am the player, and I make the decisions for my character. When I have both a Ranger Card and a Thief Card in my hand, it is I, and not Steve Jackson who decides which to put down and when. And when I am in the dungeon, it is I and not Mike Brock who decides whether I go left or right, and when I emerge into the light grinning and staggering under sacks of gold, ready to level up, it is I and not Mark Seifter who will choose which class I take a level in and which Feats and Spells I will learn next. Players make their own decisions. This is the core of the game, any game. Otherwise, you are not playing Pathfinder: you are re-reading the Hobbit.

Meanwhile, if I can demonstrate that what I am doing is square with the RAW, then I should be allowed to do that in PFS. We all should. That is my philosophy, too. Pathfinder Society players are paying customers. Paying customers who are obeying the rules should be allowed to continue obeying the rules and continue paying.

[Devilkiller]

My grappling PC isn't in PFS and does use the Stamina Pool from Unchained, so perhaps part of our disagreement stems from the fact that we're playing in different situations. My DMs also generally ask me how Grapple works, not the other way around.

Anyhow, we should probably get back to the original topic. Is your crab familiar taking an archetype? It strikes me that a Mauler might be nice, especially if you could afford a couple of levels of Eldritch Guardian to grant all your Combat feats to the familiar and therefore create a second grappler with the same BAB. Since the crab could then help Pin a foe you might be able to tie stuff up around as fast as with the Cavalier dip while doing a bit more damage. On the other hand, if the whole theme of the PC is to be the very best at tying things up maybe Expert Captor is too thematic to sacrifice. Perhaps something like this could work.

1 - UM1 - *IUS, *StFist, *ImpGrapple, h-Power Attack, Cleave
2 - UM1/WHW1
3 - UM1/WHW1/EG1 - Combat Reflexes
4 - UM1/WHW1/EG2
5 - UM1/WHW1/EG1/CAV1 - (team)Broken Wing Gambit, Mauler's Endurance
6 - UM1/WHW1/EG2/CAV2 -
7 - UM2/WHW1/CAV2/EG2/ALC1 - *Greater Grapple, Paired Opportunist

Having a 2nd level Mount from Cavalier 2 seems like a drag, especially since I think you can only bring 1 pet on a PFS adventure. Maybe being a Musketeer would be slightly more fun at least for RP purposes. I guess Standard Bearer could work too. Anyhow, I figure with BWG and Paired Opp whenever somebody attacks the Witch or crab they both strike back with a +4.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I don't know very much at all about Familiar Archetypes!

Where are familiar archetypes described? How do you get one? What does it cost? What book was it published in? This is something I've been wondering about.

[David knott 242]

Most Familiar archetypes are in the Familiar Folio player companion, while a couple are in the Animal Archive player companion. You can find them all at d20pfsrd.com by searching for "familiar archetypes". For some reason, there appears to be no way to get to them via the usual menu hierarchy.

[Taenia]

Regarding PFS just because something is not in the additional resources doesn't mean it doesn't apply. It just means that the Players can't use that material. That is why you won't be able to play a vivisectionist but you might encounter one in PFS. The same goes for rules, just because a rule is in a new book that isn't covered by AR doesn't mean it doesn't apply.

As a PFS GM we tend to listen to what the developers say and especially when they provide a clarification.

[Imbicatus]

David knott 242 wrote:

Most Familiar archetypes are in the Familiar Folio player companion, while a couple are in the Animal Archive player companion. You can find them all at d20pfsrd.com by searching for "familiar archetypes". For some reason, there appears to be no way to get to them via the usual menu hierarchy.

All of the Familiar archetypes are listed on Archives of Nethys.

[Onyx Tanuki]

I personally like the valet archetype, since it allows my crab to aid me with crafting and to deliver touch spells to allies more safely. It looks like the bloodline familiar options would be worth looking into if you can afford a dip into bloodrager, too, with the abyssal bloodline working well with a mauler, destined being good for valet, and celestial and fey being useful all around. I'm not sure if the levels and caster levels listed are for the familiar or for your bloodrager/sorcerer levels, though, so that may be something to clarify before taking that dip, but I think it's safe to say the class levels stack, just like they would if you took levels in most other classes with a familiar.

That said, mauler actually isn't too shabby an archetype if you're already taking at least two fighter levels. If you can tack on a level of abyssal bloodrager and take bloodline familiar, this should stack with its ability to grow to medium size and bring its claws' damage up to 1d6 each. The downside is that you kinda don't want to put your familiar in danger, since it's storing all your witch spells, which is especially tough if you rely on those spells. Figment is also a good one as, even though your familiar only gets half the HP it normally would, it can never be permanently killed, and it also gets eidolon evolution points.

[Scott Wilhelm]

The Protector Archetype catches my eye. The effect is sort of like Shield Other, effectively giving the character a lot more hit points. In addition, I was thinking in terms of Tumor Familiars, and when a Tumor Familiar is melded with your body, it gains Fast Healing 5. I was thinking of achieving the same effect by having my Familiar drink Potions of Shield Other or use Share Spells and the Alchemal Allocation Extract to use Potions of Shield Other. Protector Familiars gain Bodyguard and Combat Reflexes as Bonus Feats! I was thinking of taking a level in Cavalier anyway. If I take Paired Opportunist, then I get an Attack of Opportunity whenever my Familiar gets one, and a Protector Familiar gets an Attack of Opportunity whenever anyone attacks its mistress! Broken Wing Gambit will be no longer necessary. The Familiar can use the feat when on its mistress even if it can't reach the opponent, so the crab can remain in the waterskin full of brine.

Looking at them more closely, I see a lot of value in the Figment Archetype. We've been talking about Crab Familiars who can only remain out of the water for 1 hour per point of Constitution, but that's not a problem if it's a Figment Familiar. Sadly, Witches can't have Figment Familiars.

I like Mauler, but not for my character on this thread. The Increased Strength ability only triggers when the master reduces an opponent to 0hp, and my Grapplers usually Tie Up opponents rather than beat them down to 0hp. Coup-de-Gracing Tied Up opponents is not an option. Cavaliers of the Order of the Penitent vow to never kill.

The Water Patron Crab Familiar can breathe air for a period of time. There would be table variation on this: it doesn't say how long a Crab Familiar has to stay in the water before it can venture out again for another 12 hours. Maybe the Amphibious ability can be used to treat the air as if it were dipping back in the water, spending a minute to re-oxygenate and stay out of the water for another 12 hours. But maybe there are more detailed rules in another place.

A Transmutation School Familiar might be able to play the same trick as the Water Patron Familiar, and the ability to shift benefits seems nifty.

[Devilkiller]

I'm not sure if there are specific rules on how long a crab has to be in water to "recharge" for another 12 hours. I'd think that even a brief immersion should work fine since presumably the crab just needs some fresh water on its "lungs" (sort of feathery looking organs we always called "devil lungs" when we pulled them out of blue crabs)

I'm not sure if the AoO for Bodyguard should really trigger Paired Oppurtunists. Sure, it is an AoO, but I don't know if it is considered an AoO against the attacker. It might be significant that you always attack AC 10 rather than the attacker's AC. The boost to your AC form Bodyguard could be significant though, especially if you put Benevolent padded or leather armor on the crab (if people think that's silly they could consider it a little padding so your crab is less likely to get cracked). You'd get the +4 bonus from Paired Opportunist in any event though, and that's a pretty big bonus.

I can respect not wanting a big Mauler for RP reasons though I still can't help thinking it might be a grappler's best friend.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Devilkiller wrote:

I'm not sure if the AoO for Bodyguard should really trigger Paired Oppurtunists.

I'm quite confident it's square with RAW.

Devilkiller wrote:

Sure, it is an AoO,

I agree with you there, but a lot of people don't think it is, and I'm pretty sure that the creator of the Bodyguard Feat intended for it not to be, but as I said, by RAW, it is

Devilkiller wrote:

but I don't know if it is considered an AoO against the attacker.

I think it's safe to say that it is.

d20pfsrd wrote:

Aid Another: In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent.

You are improving your allies' Armor Class by attacking your opponents. Even the flavor text of Feat says so.

Bodyguard wrote:

Your swift strikes ward off enemies attacking nearby allies.

So, you are making swift strikes. You are interfering with an opponent. Aid Another is a kind of Special Attack; you are making an attack targeting an opponent.

[UnArcaneElection]

Pretty good thread necromancy here. But what would you do for a single-class (or almost single-class) White-Haired Witch?