Ok, then i go with 'Grease is not difficult terrain'... then i'd ask, what "within" in this context means?
Ok, then i go with 'Grease is not difficult terrain'... then i'd ask, what "within" in this context means?
and i'd respond with, "look at the other 250 posts on this thread, its in there somewhere" haha
Ok, then i go with 'Grease is not difficult terrain'... then i'd ask, what "within" in this context means?
I say it means if you're moving to a square that is covered by grease.
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grease does not say it creates difficult terrain, therefore it does not create difficult terrain
Quoted for truth.
So let me get everyone's conclusion and how that actually functions correctly? No matter where I start, my speed is only halved on the squares that I am actually in grease, so I can theoretically walk past grease (with a weak acrobatics check) and still go a total 30ft with a 30ft speed because as long as I make it past the puddle with extra speed left over, I get the halved speed back to full when I leave grease?
Not only are you all ignoring the specific wording and trying to straw man it back into your counter argument, but also are claiming that a mechanic works in away that destroys the effects of many abilities and spells. This is beyond a ridiculous argument: RAW or not, it's not what's intended at all and shouldn't be considered the rules.
No matter where I start, my speed is only halved on the squares that I am actually in grease, so I can theoretically walk past grease (with a weak acrobatics check) and still go a total 30ft with a 30ft speed because as long as I make it past the puddle with extra speed left over, I get the halved speed back to full when I leave grease?
I'm just going to say no, and leave it at that.
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In that fast and furious example, the guy with speed 30 would just make a DC 10 acrobatics to jump over the grease after a 10-foot running start, thus moving his full 30 feet anyhow.
It's meant to be cast under fools, in the hope that said fools fall on their arse. As a bonus, said fools must still make acro checks to remain standing if they move away from their spot. As a bonus bonus, said fools can only move at half speed through those squares.
If someone wants more than that for a 1st level spell... well...
In that fast and furious example, the guy with speed 30 would just make a DC 10 acrobatics to jump over the grease after a 10-foot running start, thus moving his full 30 feet anyhow.
It's meant to be cast under fools, in the hope that said fools fall on their arse. As a bonus, said fools must still make acro checks to remain standing if they move away from their spot. As a bonus bonus, said fools can only move at half speed through those squares.
If someone wants more than that for a 1st level spell... well...
Yes they jumped over grease, a legitimate way to get around it, no complaint there.
Apparently they don't need to make the check to 5ft step out by everyone's but mine reading. Its a 5-10ft square in any direction to get it, unless they are a Merfolk or otherwise hindered to the point that grease is the least of their worries, they might as well not have their speed halved at all because according to everyone here, your speed is no longer halved for the action/round once you're out.
The spell would be worthless as a 0th level spell, might as well just pick up a crossbow and trip people with some special bolts because a 10ft undiscriminating square rarely allows for good tactical placement (and only then away from the party).
Hmm, Sop someone accuses others of making strawmen by saying their arguments say something?
My irony meter just exploded.
Please, point out one time where I have misrepresented the other side's argument. Meanwhile I can easily point out the times that my argument's logic has been misrepresented by other's arguments. For example: the claim that "because half speed means you only can go as far" was changed to limit people based on how far they said they wanted to go instead of how far one can go with an action; the combining of the statements "you may not take" (a 5ft step) and "it gets you nothing" when they are separate end points from separate logical sources; and the most ridiculous (although mostly irrelevant to the grand discussion) that "time stop is not as good as everyone says" is the same as saying "time stop is a child's toy".
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Apparently they don't need to make the check to 5ft step out by everyone's but mine reading. Its a 5-10ft square in any direction to get it, unless they are a Merfolk or otherwise hindered to the point that grease is the least of their worries, they might as well not have their speed halved at all because according to everyone here, your speed is no longer halved for the action/round once you're out.
They still need to make an Acrobatics check, even with the 5ft step.
Apparently they don't need to make the check to 5ft step out by everyone's but mine reading. Its a 5-10ft square in any direction to get it, unless they are a Merfolk or otherwise hindered to the point that grease is the least of their worries, they might as well not have their speed halved at all because according to everyone here, your speed is no longer halved for the action/round once you're out.They still need to make an Acrobatics check, even with the 5ft step.
many people say you don't need the acrobatics check to 5ft step out of the grease. that you only need the acrobatics check when you move into a greased sqare.
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for this move they'd need to make the check.
No, they don't need the acrobatics check to 5-ft-step out or to move-action walk out from a grease square... cause they already did. If they're on that edge square it is because they moved into that edge square and then they made the acrobatics check and moved there or they where there when the spell was cast and they already rolled the reflex save. So, no, no more checks.
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Wait, what?
No matter where one ends up in the effected area, the character will likely be on the edge of the grease. To say that an acrobatics is not needed when moving, 5 foot step or not, is ignoring the text of the spell.
Huh? No, it isn't.
The spell says when moving into or within, not out of, the area of effect.
So, moving from ungreased to greased square, acrobatics check.
Moving from one greased square to another, acrobatics check.
Moving from a greased square into an ungreased square, no acrobatics check.
Moving from an ungreased square into another ungreased square, no acrobatics check.
ABCD
EFGH
JKLM
NOPQ
FG, KL are greased.
Moving into F, G, K, or L, whether from another of the greased squares, or any other square, incurs the acrobatics check.
Moving into any square besides F, G, K or L, no acrobatics check, no matter where you started.
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This makes absolutely no sense.Do I love within water when I walk from a square of lake to a square of land?
Yes.
Yeah, I accidentally typed love instead of move. My point is that I walk through water when moving through a square covered by water to a dry square.
I know that the movement rules for difficult terrain have you consider the square you are moving into for penalties. As a spell effect with an area, I would have my players roll a check for moving 5ft out as well, as it would be moving within the spell effect.
I can see table variation from my interpretation.
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This makes absolutely no sense.Do I love within water when I walk from a square of lake to a square of land?
Yes.
Yeah, I accidentally typed love instead of move. My point is that I walk through water when moving through a square covered by water to a dry square.
I know that the movement rules for difficult terrain have you consider the square you are moving into for penalties. As a spell effect with an area, I would have my players roll a check for moving 5ft out as well, as it would be moving within the spell effect.
I can see table variation from my interpretation.
Why do you have a single exception to the normal movement rules?
Moving from a water square to a dry square would be an unhindered move, unless the dry square were some sort of hindering or difficult terrain.
Pathfinder, in general, considers the terrain you are moving into, rather than the terrain you are moving out of for movement restrictions. The spell does not include any specific exception to those rules, as far as I can see. Within and through are neither of them equivalent to "out of" or exiting.
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This makes absolutely no sense.Do I love within water when I walk from a square of lake to a square of land?
Yes.
Yeah, I accidentally typed love instead of move. My point is that I walk through water when moving through a square covered by water to a dry square.
I know that the movement rules for difficult terrain have you consider the square you are moving into for penalties. As a spell effect with an area, I would have my players roll a check for moving 5ft out as well, as it would be moving within the spell effect.
I can see table variation from my interpretation.
Why do you have a single exception to the normal movement rules?
Moving from a water square to a dry square would be an unhindered move, unless the dry square were some sort of hindering or difficult terrain.
Pathfinder, in general, considers the terrain you are moving into, rather than the terrain you are moving out of for movement restrictions. The spell does not include any specific exception to those rules, as far as I can see. Within and through are neither of them equivalent to "out of" or exiting.
The rules are not as explicit as you make them out to be. The rules do not state that you cannot be moving within when exiting a square. The rules only really talk about moving into squares, after all. It isn't stated, and as per my lake example, you move within the lake when exiting the lake.
The normal movement rules you refer to are the difficult terrain section, which we have determined Grease is not.
You interpretation is just as valid as my own. The rules do not state one of us is more correct than the other, and our disagreement is in the meaning of words (within vs. exiting) not the meaning of the rules.
Hence, table variation.
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Wait, what?
No matter where one ends up in the effected area, the character will likely be on the edge of the grease. To say that an acrobatics is not needed when moving, 5 foot step or not, is ignoring the text of the spell.
Huh? No, it isn't.
The spell says when moving into or within, not out of, the area of effect.
So, moving from ungreased to greased square, acrobatics check.
Moving from one greased square to another, acrobatics check.
Moving from a greased square into an ungreased square, no acrobatics check.
Moving from an ungreased square into another ungreased square, no acrobatics check.ABCD
EFGH
JKLM
NOPQFG, KL are greased.
Moving into F, G, K, or L, whether from another of the greased squares, or any other square, incurs the acrobatics check.
Moving into any square besides F, G, K or L, no acrobatics check, no matter where you started.
You are missing the point.
If you are within the area of effect, you need to make the Acrobatics check. If you are in F, G, K or L at the beginning of your turn, you need to make that check to be able to move. If you fail, then the character makes another Reflex save to stay standing up. Failing the Acrobatics check means that YOU DON'T GET TO MOVE THAT ROUND...
That includes the 5 foot step, whether or not it is even allowed. (This also means you can only make one acrobatics check, meaning the Character can't make another for the 5 foot step after having tried to move the first time. Can't use a standard for a second try either)
"Within" doesn't mean "the square you are stepping to..." but the "square you are currently in."
In that fast and furious example, the guy with speed 30 would just make a DC 10 acrobatics to jump over the grease after a 10-foot running start, thus moving his full 30 feet anyhow.
It's meant to be cast under fools, in the hope that said fools fall on their arse. As a bonus, said fools must still make acro checks to remain standing if they move away from their spot. As a bonus bonus, said fools can only move at half speed through those squares.
If someone wants more than that for a 1st level spell... well...
Yes they jumped over grease, a legitimate way to get around it, no complaint there.
Apparently they don't need to make the check to 5ft step out by everyone's but mine reading. Its a 5-10ft square in any direction to get it, unless they are a Merfolk or otherwise hindered to the point that grease is the least of their worries, they might as well not have their speed halved at all because according to everyone here, your speed is no longer halved for the action/round once you're out.
The spell would be worthless as a 0th level spell, might as well just pick up a crossbow and trip people with some special bolts because a 10ft undiscriminating square rarely allows for good tactical placement (and only then away from the party).
If someone 5' steps out of Grease, they cannot continue moving.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. ... [Y]ou can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
So their movement has been effectively reduced to 5', typically a larger decrease than half. Either you 5' step without an Acrobatics check, or you move farther than that, but have to make an Acrobatics check. I'm not sure what the issue is.
Do Ilovemove within water when I walk from a square of lake to a square of land?
No. Not in Pathfinder.
In 3.5, the Grease spell specifically stated the following:
"those that remain in the area must each make a new saving throw every round to avoid falling and to be able to move"If you played 3.5 before Pathfinder, you are likely convinced that starting your turn in an area of grease requires some kind of check in order to move because that's how it has been played in the past.
Ah, yes this is the reason of it. The spell worked like entangle requiring a check each round.
Honestly our current group is old-school players and we've always stuck to the 3.5 tradition of requiring a check to move out of grease if you begin your turn in grease without ever debating the revised language.
I think the rule is not very clearly stated.
I think it is just a poor rewording of the spell when modifying it.
Anyway, for the simpleness of the game i moved from the old school behavior to the new stated in the new rules and i won't cause a trouble to 5-ft-step out of grease.
Do INo. Not in Pathfinder.lovemove within water when I walk from a square of lake to a square of land?Where do you get that from? The 'within' clause is specific to grease, and doesn't show up at all under difficult terrain, so Pathfinder doesn't really specify what it means to move 'within' a square.
Adjudicating grease is not at all like difficult terrain, different rules, different effects.
If that's how you feel, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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In that fast and furious example, the guy with speed 30 would just make a DC 10 acrobatics to jump over the grease after a 10-foot running start, thus moving his full 30 feet anyhow.
It's meant to be cast under fools, in the hope that said fools fall on their arse. As a bonus, said fools must still make acro checks to remain standing if they move away from their spot. As a bonus bonus, said fools can only move at half speed through those squares.
If someone wants more than that for a 1st level spell... well...
Yes they jumped over grease, a legitimate way to get around it, no complaint there.
Apparently they don't need to make the check to 5ft step out by everyone's but mine reading. Its a 5-10ft square in any direction to get it, unless they are a Merfolk or otherwise hindered to the point that grease is the least of their worries, they might as well not have their speed halved at all because according to everyone here, your speed is no longer halved for the action/round once you're out.
The spell would be worthless as a 0th level spell, might as well just pick up a crossbow and trip people with some special bolts because a 10ft undiscriminating square rarely allows for good tactical placement (and only then away from the party).
If someone 5' steps out of Grease, they cannot continue moving.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. ... [Y]ou can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.So their movement has been effectively reduced to 5', typically a larger decrease than half. Either you 5' step without an Acrobatics check, or you move farther than that, but have to make an Acrobatics check. I'm not sure what the issue is.
This is a couple of issues being mixed up here.
Whether or not one can take a 5' step out of a Grease effected square is the question. If you do take that 5' Step, then any other move action the character takes can not be to move. They can, however, use a Move Action to draw a weapon, get an item from an accessable container (such as a Handy Havorsack) and other actions, they just can't move. This is anytime one takes a 5' step, whether it is in this situation or not.
My and others contention is that one needs to use the movement action to move from the area affected by the Grease spell (when rolling the Acrobatics skill), even if the movement is only 5'. This not only would use the movement action, it would also provoke if an enemy has the proper position. The player can choose to continue to move, or stay there, but I seriously doubt that the character would try to 5' step when he has trouble just keeping upright.
Though it is a low level spell, I hasten to remind everyone that it is not a cantrip.
It's been a while since I've seen this discussed, and I'm curious if anyone has any new thoughts to add to the discussion. My group is still fairly undecided on it, and I wouldn't mind seeing some clarification on the subject.
oh god, i thought this was dead and buried...
how is this even a question? and how is it 6 pages long? do people not read the basic rules anymore and just argue how they think things should work? movement is based on the square you are entering. it doesn't matter what you are currently standing in if the square you are going to enter is a normal non-difficult terrain square you can 5foot into it. the only thing that can stop you is height. so for a geese of course u can 5foot out of the grease, you cannot 5foot into another grease square but out of it is fine.
did you actually reeeead any of those 6 pages? maybe you'll see this exact point a few times
how is this even a question? and how is it 6 pages long? do people not read the basic rules anymore and just argue how they think things should work? movement is based on the square you are entering. it doesn't matter what you are currently standing in if the square you are going to enter is a normal non-difficult terrain square you can 5foot into it. the only thing that can stop you is height. so for a geese of course u can 5foot out of the grease, you cannot 5foot into another grease square but out of it is fine.
Did you not see the jumping over 10ft thread? The more "obvious" the answer is to a "simple" question the bigger the threads.
I don't need to read them I know how it works from reading the rules. and my group all agrees so its a non-issue for me.
If you refuse to even look at the details of a discussion that is almost a year old and almost 300 comments long could you just not comment? it would be way more helpful
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How is "How is this even a question?" even a question? It's phrased as one, and there's a question mark at the end.
This is a question because Grease specifically references moving through the area of grease if you make an acrobatics check. The question really is: does leaving a square affected by grease count as moving through the area?
I think it does, and I would require an acrobatics check to leave as you are moving through the space to exit.
This is a question because Grease specifically references moving through the area of grease if you make an acrobatics check. The question really is: does leaving a square affected by grease count as moving through the area?
I think it does, and I would require an acrobatics check to leave as you are moving through the space to exit.
This pretty much, and I think everyone would agree that if you're in a grease square you'd need to do an acrobatics check before moving anywhere. At least, I don't think anyone previously disputed that.
Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?
IF the terrain is anything but ideal movement, you can not make a 5 foot adjustment( which is what you're asking about,) Grease is NOT ideal movement terrain. You certainly can MOVE 5 foot out of grease, but it will be the usual AOO provoking move action.
but you see if you can 5ft step based off of the square you're entering. Movement for everything else doesn't care about what you're standing in or where you're currently standing. If you are swimming and wanting to move onto land it's 5ft of land movement with no swimming needing to be done. So being in grease doesn't impact your movement at all, all you check is what the square you're wanting to go into is.
General rule: Movement only cares about the square you are entering, not leaving.
Grease specific rule: Moving within or through the area requires an acrobatics check.
Therefore, when within the area of grease, to leave you must make an acrobatics check. You can 5' step to leave, assuming you make the acrobatics check. If you fail the check you can't move, and if you fail by more than 5 you fall prone.
It actually says "You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.", which does not include Grease.IF the terrain is anything but ideal movement, you can not make a 5 foot adjustment( which is what you're asking about,) Grease is NOT ideal movement terrain. You certainly can MOVE 5 foot out of grease, but it will be the usual AOO provoking move action.Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?
Grease is definitely difficult terrain because it hampers your movement.
General rule: Movement only cares about the square you are entering, not leaving.
Grease specific rule: Moving within or through the area requires an acrobatics check.
Therefore, when within the area of grease, to leave you must make an acrobatics check. You can 5' step to leave, assuming you make the acrobatics check. If you fail the check you can't move, and if you fail by more than 5 you fall prone.
I'm not moving within or through the grease, I'm moving out of the grease.
Grease is ABCD
X1XX
XABX
XCDX
X2XX
If I go from 1 to 2 I'm moving through the area. If I move to ABCD from any spot shown them I'm moving within grease. If I move to X from any spot then I'm not moving within or through the grease area.
Grease is definitely difficult terrain because it hampers your movement.It actually says "You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.", which does not include Grease.IF the terrain is anything but ideal movement, you can not make a 5 foot adjustment( which is what you're asking about,) Grease is NOT ideal movement terrain. You certainly can MOVE 5 foot out of grease, but it will be the usual AOO provoking move action.Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?
Grease is grease, not difficult terrain.
If I go from 1 to 2 I'm moving through the area. If I move to ABCD from any spot shown them I'm moving within grease. If I move to X from any spot then I'm not moving within or through the grease area.
Within isn't a specific game term, it is general english usage. If you are in a square effected by grease, you are within the effect. I would say: If you move to ABCD from any spot shown then you're moving into grease. I would also say that moving into grease is within the area. I also think that moving from ABCD to an outside space is moving from within the affected area, and subject to the acrobatics roll.
Logically, think of it as someone put slime down on the entire area. Yes, your character "occupies" a 5' square during combat, but we know they aren't actually 5x5x5 big (unless you're playing a gelatinous cube). You would need to take a few actual steps to make a 5-foot step movement, and since the floor is very slippery, it makes sense that you need to maintain your balance while leaving the area, with a chance that you can't move or fall trying.