FAQ: Can you 5' step out of Grease?


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ShieldLawrence wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:

Grease says you only need to move at half speed when moving within or through, once you're outside of it you can continue moving full speed.

Saying movement is halved within or through and area is the same as saying it costs twice as much to move in that area.

Can you point me to something that says those movement penalties are still applied outside the area of Grease?

I cannot. The rules are vague about going half your speed for portions of a move action.

The rules do not state that half speed is the same as costing twice as much. Saying it does not make it so. Similar effects are not automatically the same effect unless rules text states otherwise.

There is no rules text that explicitly shows that moving at half speed (acrobatics, stealth, Grease, Slow) is the same as costing multiple squares (difficult terrain, second diagonals).

Cool, I think that puts us on the same page then. In some sort of weird rule limbo.

Sovereign Court

Ssyvan wrote:

Grease says you only need to move at half speed when moving within or through, once you're outside of it you can continue moving full speed.

Saying movement is halved within or through and area is the same as saying it costs twice as much to move in that area.

Can you point me to something that says those movement penalties are still applied outside the area of Grease?

To make things more simple at the gaming table, count each movement INTO A GREASED SQUARE as 2 squares. But it's not difficult terrain: it's your speed being cut in half for those squares.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
So how far can you move in the scenario above?

You can move 15' because you are limited to half your speed.

I've known many GMs who will let you move half speed for portions of a move action, such as only walking for one Grease square or tumbling though one square, but this method isn't outlined in the rules as far as I know.

It was in 3.5... the transition to PFRPG lost some wording on that. It is nonsensical for a character with a speed of 60 feet to tumble past an enemy and keep doing back flips for another 25 feet distance... for no reason... unless he's trying to show off...

Like I said, Grease only halves movement speed when "walking within or through an area of Grease." Once you're out you're no longer within or through, so there shouldn't be any more penalty to movement.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:

Grease says you only need to move at half speed when moving within or through, once you're outside of it you can continue moving full speed.

Saying movement is halved within or through and area is the same as saying it costs twice as much to move in that area.

Can you point me to something that says those movement penalties are still applied outside the area of Grease?

To make things more simple at the gaming table, count each movement INTO A GREASED SQUARE as 2 squares. But it's not difficult terrain: it's your speed being cut in half for those squares.

Right, I agree that it is more simple to say it counts as two squares, and I completely agree that Grease isn't Difficult Terrain.

However, Grease says you can walk at half speed within it if you make an acrobatics check. So if you're making the acrobatics check, then you're moving at half speed while in the area of Grease. I'm not sure, but I don't think there is much dispute about needing to make the acrobatics check to move out of grease. Grease ties the movement penalty to the acrobatics check, so if you're making one you're doing the other.

There are a bunch of implications to this, and I'm rather fuzzy on it. I'm fairly certain you can move 25' in the scenario I posed, but I don't think anything about that proves you can or can't 5' step out of Grease.

And I totally agree that you can 5' step while Slowed or in Medium/Heavy Armor. But I think those things are a different movement penalty than Grease. To me Slow and Armor affect a character's movement speed. Where as Grease affects the movement within it.

I could be missing something there, but all of that leads me to some uncertainty as to whether or not you can or can't 5' step out of Grease.

Sovereign Court

You're overthinking this:

DT.D.BS5-


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

You're overthinking this:

DT.D.BS5-

Not sure I get that?

Sovereign Court

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Bingo. 3 things stop the 5-foot step: (repeat after me)

Difficult Terrain
Darkness
Base Speed of 5 ft or less

(DT.D.BS5-)


Okay, on that line of thought, can you 5' step into a square with an obstacle?

The Concordance

Ssyvan wrote:
Okay, on that line of thought, can you 5' step into a square with an obstacle?

If that obstacle doesn't count as Difficult Terrain, yes you can.


Oops, apparently you can't move into the same square as an obstacle, but ignoring that for the moment the rest of it does say this:

Obstacle wrote:
If an obstacle hampers movement but doesn't completely block it, each obstructed square or obstacle between squares counts as 2 squares of movement. You must pay this cost to cross the obstacle

5' Step only pays 1 square of movement, so wouldn't that prevent a 5' step?

Sovereign Court

Ssyvan wrote:
Okay, on that line of thought, can you 5' step into a square with an obstacle?

d20PFSRD has legacy language from 3.5 that can help you.

"Hop Up

You can jump up onto an object as tall as your waist, such as a table or small boulder, with a DC 10 Acrobatics (jump) check. Doing so counts as 10 feet of movement, so if your speed is 30 feet, you could move 20 feet, then hop up onto a counter. You do not need to get a running start to hop up, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start."

However, since that language is no longer part of the official rules, I revert to:

Is is part of the DT.D.BS5- subset? if not, yes to 5-foot step.

The official rules also have the following which may help you:

"You can't move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step). You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent.

You can also move diagonally past other impassable obstacles, such as pits."

Also:

"Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer."

Please note legal position is not defined AFAIK...

So it looks like you can 5-foot step around or into an obstacle as long as it's not impassable, and as long as it's not DT.D.BS5-


I'm glad some people got my point about 5' stepping past an obstacle.

Apparently, even though it's called a "5' step", it doesn't COST you 5' of movement. So it really doesn't matter how many squares of movement it would normally cost you to move into that adjacent square - you can make the adjustment as a 5' step.
(assuming you're not prevented from taking a 5' step in the first place due to one of the three previously mentioned conditions: difficult terrain, darkness, or having a speed of 5' or less)

Quote:
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.

Oddly enough, this also means you can 5' step within the Grease spell with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. It doesn't matter that you're moving at half speed. As long as that halving doesn't drop your speed to 5' or less, anyway.

Btw, this is a totally unexpected conclusion for me. I was expecting to arrive at a different answer when first looking at this thread.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
So it looks like you can 5-foot step around or into an obstacle as long as it's not impassable, and as long as it's not DT.D.BS5-

I think you meant "a corner", right?

As to your comment about ending a turn in an illegal square, it is actually defined:

Quote:
Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
while 5ft stepping, due to the fact that your movement speed is limited to only those 5ft for the round, when it gets halved, you can no longer 5ft step because 2.5ft isn't enough for a 5ft step.

As it appears that we're into troll territory now, I think there's little more that can be usefully said here. However, I've seen this misapprehension about speed and distance moved before - so I'll just address that for anyone else reading this thread.

A creature's speed is the maximum distance it can move when taking a move action. The actual distance a creature moves in a round is entirely distinct from its speed - it can choose to move a smaller distance, and can take a double move or run action to move a greater distance. If a creature with a speed of 30 feet chooses to move 20 feet, or 10 feet, or 5 feet, in a round, that doesn't mean its speed has changed - that creature's speed (the maximum distance it can move) is still 30 feet; it just chose to move a shorter distance this round.

Restrictions (or bonuses) to speed are applied to a creature's base speed to give a new speed, which is then the creature's maximum move distance. For example, a female human with a base speed of 30 feet gets a +10-foot bonus to speed if she is a barbarian - making her speed 40 feet, meaning she can now move up to 40 feet with a move action. If the barbarian chooses to move 30 feet in a given round, her speed hasn't changed back to 30 feet - she's simply choosing to move a shorter distance than her maximum in that round. If the barbarian is subject to an effect that halves her speed, she then has a speed of 20 feet - meaning she can move up to 20 feet with a move action. She can, of course, still choose to move 5, 10, or 15 feet, without affecting her speed. (She doesn't say "I'm going to move 15 feet to that square" only to have the speed-halving effect step in and say "No, I'm halving that, so you can only move 7.5 feet. And then I'm going to round that down to 5 feet. Hah!" It's her speed - the maximum she can move - that is halved, not any specific distance she chooses to move on a given turn.)

It's fairly obvious how the run action interacts with changed speed - you simply multiply the creature's new speed by the appropriate number (three or four) to see how far the creature can run. (Note that you can, of course, choose to move a shorter distance than this maximum while running.) The special "take 5-foot step" action - allowed only when you don't otherwise move in a round - has its own rule for dealing with creatures with a reduced speed. This is "Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature." That's very reasonable - when your speed is reduced to 5 feet, you shouldn't be able to use the "take 5-foot step" action to effectively get another move action. It also makes it quite clear that as long as your speed is greater than 5 feet, you are allowed to take a 5-foot step. To put it another way, to work out whether or not you can take a 5-foot-step, you consider what your speed is (that is, what the maximum distance you can move is) - if it is more than 5 feet, you are allowed to take a 5-foot-step.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Most dungeons have 5 foot or 10 foot wide corridors... you cast grease between you and your attackers especially if they're melee; if they want to get to you (and you can stand right at the edge of grease so they don't 5-foot step out) you're at a significant advantage.

It's like some posters think the only battlefield out there is some grand gymnasium and that you *have* to cast this smack dab in the middle of the room...

Sorry to break it to you, but you're never gonna defeat the enemy with just grease (if you're trying to defeat them in combat, that is... ahem...)

Ever cast Grease under a Golem?

Ok, I'll admit, 20 rounds of Acid Splashmay have also come into play, still.......

On topic: I allow a 5' step out of Grease, as long as the Acrobatics check is made. You started within the spell's area of effect, you moved, you make your rolls and take your penalties.

Sovereign Court

Snowlilly wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Most dungeons have 5 foot or 10 foot wide corridors... you cast grease between you and your attackers especially if they're melee; if they want to get to you (and you can stand right at the edge of grease so they don't 5-foot step out) you're at a significant advantage.

It's like some posters think the only battlefield out there is some grand gymnasium and that you *have* to cast this smack dab in the middle of the room...

Sorry to break it to you, but you're never gonna defeat the enemy with just grease (if you're trying to defeat them in combat, that is... ahem...)

Ever cast Grease under a Golem?

Ok, I'll admit, 20 rounds of Acid Splashmay have also come into play, still.......

your admission makes a monumental difference ;)

...and happens to be the reason I've never spent a silver on constructs since the PRPG rules! ;)

(Most constructs do not fly: a wizard or familiar or rogue with access to this cantrip can off most constructs with time and patience...less easy now that they came up with robots and androids with ranged weaponry)


The confirmation bias is strong with this one:

Callum, that's not how it works, because then you could never double move. That's why it says "all movement speeds are halved", even though it doesn't say that under every listing, any logical person would assume that when your speed is halved, all your speeds are halved (if applicable; ie grease wouldn't hinder flying but for any land based movement it would).

Blackmane, are you sure it's hair and not that straw man that I cut down?

PKD, all speeds are halved means your 5ft step speed is halved too, because the effect isn't saying "you can't five foot step" the specific of halved speed beats the general of 5ft "in x case" and since 5ft step provides no "does not ignore speed penalties" (which a speed halving is, that's what "penalty" means) to counter the penalty, 5ft is reduced to 2.5ft then rounded to zero. Any time something halves your speed, 5ft free movement is not allowed (of that type). You also seem to have the misconception that stepping from in to out does not give you the effects of the spell: if it didn't, the spell would be entirely useless.

To reiterate the correct list you may not 5ft step when in (under the effects of) and must spend an actual action to move:

Difficult Terrain Too vague to be applied to anything except by the gm.
Darkness
Base Speed of 5 ft or less
Slow or similar ability/effect/condition affecting the speed in question (eg Blinded, entangled, grease)
In water without a swim speed
Earthgliding? without a speed (is there any time this is allowed without a base speed?)
Stealthing
Climbing
Accrobatics-ing
Flying and turning more than 45* (also could require a fly check to not fall)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Most dungeons have 5 foot or 10 foot wide corridors... you cast grease between you and your attackers especially if they're melee; if they want to get to you (and you can stand right at the edge of grease so they don't 5-foot step out) you're at a significant advantage.

You're at no advantage in this case, it requires nothing for them to stand there and attack you if you both are on the edge with him on the inside of it. The Grease may as well not even exist in this case since it is doing nothing to help the situation (and if it was, your interpretation would take away what little is would have had).

The Concordance

AwesomenessDog wrote:


To reiterate the correct list you may not 5ft step when in (under the effects of) and must spend an actual action to move:

Difficult Terrain Too vague to be applied to anything except by the gm.
Darkness
Base Speed of 5 ft or less
Slow or similar ability/effect/condition affecting the speed in question (eg Blinded, entangled, grease)
In water without a swim speed
Earthgliding? without a speed (is there any time this is allowed without a base speed?)
Stealthing
Climbing
Accrobatics-ing
Flying and turning more than 45* (also could require a fly check to not fall)

Fun list, would love to see the rules text that disallows some of those items.

Times that you cannot 5' step:
Difficult Terrain (in the 5' step rules text)
Darkness (in the 5' step rules text)
Base Speed of 5 ft or less (in the 5' step rules text)
Earth gliding, or passing through any sort of solid barrier (in the movement rules text)

Times you can 5' step:
Slower than normal movement speed (moving 5ft costs 5ft)
Swimming (moving 5ft costs 5ft)
Stealthing (moving 5ft costs 5ft)
Climbing (moving 5ft costs 5ft)
Acrobatics (moving 5ft costs 5ft)

Of course, the above apply as long as your half-speed or quarter-speed is above 5ft and you make your relevant checks to swim/fly/climb/etc.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
...all speeds are halved means your 5ft step speed is halved too...

Actually, halving your speed has no effect on your ability yo 5' step. A 5' step, and the distance of that 5' step, is in no related to your movement speed.

(With the one caveat that if your speed is 5' or less, you cannot 5' step at all.)


ShieldLawrence wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:


To reiterate the correct list you may not 5ft step when in (under the effects of) and must spend an actual action to move:

Difficult Terrain Too vague to be applied to anything except by the gm.
Darkness
Base Speed of 5 ft or less
Slow or similar ability/effect/condition affecting the speed in question (eg Blinded, entangled, grease)
In water without a swim speed
Earthgliding? without a speed (is there any time this is allowed without a base speed?)
Stealthing
Climbing
Accrobatics-ing
Flying and turning more than 45* (also could require a fly check to not fall)

Fun list, would love to see the rules text that disallows some of those items.

Times that you cannot 5' step:
Difficult Terrain (in the 5' step rules text)
Darkness (in the 5' step rules text)
Base Speed of 5 ft or less (in the 5' step rules text)
Earth gliding, or passing through any sort of solid barrier (in the movement rules text)

Times you can 5' step:
Slower than normal movement speed (moving 5ft costs 5ft)
Swimming (moving 5ft costs 5ft)
Stealthing (moving 5ft costs 5ft)
Climbing (moving 5ft costs 5ft)
Acrobatics (moving 5ft costs 5ft)

Of course, the above apply as long as your half-speed or quarter-speed is above 5ft and you make your relevant checks to swim/fly/climb/etc.

You missed the "half of 5ft is not a 5ft step". No where in the rules does it say your movement speed when five foot stepping is not 5ft nor does anything imply against it. Ergo, when 5ft stepping at half speed, you're 2.5ft stepping rounded down or 0ft stepping meaning 5ft step doesn't exist where speed is reduced.

The reason earthgliding and swimming and climbing don't count is that you are half speed no matter what check you pass without a natural base speed for those movement types. Stealth, acrobatics, and the specific fly instance each have their own list for disallowing is they aren't an effect or condition. If you have read the text on difficult terrain, you know its so murky that the only time it applies is when the GM says it does.


Byakko wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
...all speeds are halved means your 5ft step speed is halved too...

Actually, halving your speed has no effect on your ability yo 5' step. A 5' step, and the distance of that 5' step, is in no related to your movement speed.

(With the one caveat that if your speed is 5' or less, you cannot 5' step at all.)

That's not true at all; where does it say this? all we have is a general "you can in situations but X or similar to X." This general statement also doesn't account for speed penalties canceling the effect of the step: you can theoretically 5ft step, but it gives you no net distance traveled.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Byakko wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
...all speeds are halved means your 5ft step speed is halved too...

Actually, halving your speed has no effect on your ability yo 5' step. A 5' step, and the distance of that 5' step, is in no related to your movement speed.

(With the one caveat that if your speed is 5' or less, you cannot 5' step at all.)
That's not true at all; where does it say this? all we have is a general "you can in situations but X or similar to X." This general statement also doesn't account for speed penalties canceling the effect of the step: you can theoretically 5ft step, but it gives you no net distance traveled.

The distance of your 5' step is not based on your speed. The rules for a 5' step are fairly well defined. A 5' step can be taken as a special miscellaneous action if you haven't otherwise moved in the round. No where in these rules does your speed come into play (apart from the caveat).

The burden of proof lies on you to show where it states that reducing your speed has any impact on your ability to 5' step. The same way you'd have to show that a reduction in speed would somehow affect the range you could fire a bow. But you won't, as these are things that are just not tied to your creature's speed.


Byakko wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Byakko wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
...all speeds are halved means your 5ft step speed is halved too...

Actually, halving your speed has no effect on your ability yo 5' step. A 5' step, and the distance of that 5' step, is in no related to your movement speed.

(With the one caveat that if your speed is 5' or less, you cannot 5' step at all.)
That's not true at all; where does it say this? all we have is a general "you can in situations but X or similar to X." This general statement also doesn't account for speed penalties canceling the effect of the step: you can theoretically 5ft step, but it gives you no net distance traveled.

The distance of your 5' step is not based on your speed. The rules for a 5' step are fairly well defined. A 5' step can be taken as a special miscellaneous action if you haven't otherwise moved in the round. No where in these rules does your speed come into play (apart from the caveat).

The burden of proof lies on you to show where it states that reducing your speed has any impact on your ability to 5' step. The same way you'd have to show that a reduction in speed would somehow affect the range you could fire a bow. But you won't, as these are things that are just not tied to your creature's speed.

It's right there in the fact that you are spending actions to gain movement speed (and we are assuming base speed is 30ft), if I spend an action to gain 30ft of movement, then I have up to 30ft of movement; if I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, then I have up to 5ft of movement; if my movement speed is halved, then when I spend an action to get 30ft of movement, I get to move up to 15ft; if my speed is halved and I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, I get 2.5 rounded down ft of movement (0ft of movement). This is supported by the glossary listing of movement ("How many feet you can move with a single move action on your turn. Each square on a battle grid represents 5 feet.") and so do the Modes of Movement listings. Further more, the fact that you can double move completely destroys the fact that you measure movement in anything but spending actions to get up that distance: if you spend a free action to move, it is still hindered by penalties.

The Concordance

AwesomenessDog wrote:


It's right there in the fact that you are spending actions to gain movement speed (and we are assuming base speed is 30ft), if I spend an action to gain 30ft of movement, then I have up to 30ft of movement; if I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, then I have up to 5ft of movement; if my movement speed is halved, then when I spend an action to get 30ft of movement, I get to move up to 15ft; if my speed is halved and I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, I get 2.5 rounded down ft of movement (0ft of movement). This is supported by the glossary listing of movement ("How many feet you can move with a single move action on your turn. Each square on a battle grid represents 5 feet.") and so do the Modes of Movement listings. Further more, the fact that you can double move completely destroys the fact that you measure movement in anything but spending actions to get up that distance: if you spend a free action to move, it is still hindered by penalties.

Using 5ft to get 5ft is absolutely in the rules. The bits about 5ft becoming 2.5ft when you have a speed penalty is nowhere to be found in the rules.

A similar rule is found under Difficult Terrain, in which you pay an extra cost for each square of movement, but they in no way reference speed penalties as a situation to apply them to.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:


It's right there in the fact that you are spending actions to gain movement speed (and we are assuming base speed is 30ft), if I spend an action to gain 30ft of movement, then I have up to 30ft of movement; if I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, then I have up to 5ft of movement; if my movement speed is halved, then when I spend an action to get 30ft of movement, I get to move up to 15ft; if my speed is halved and I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, I get 2.5 rounded down ft of movement (0ft of movement). This is supported by the glossary listing of movement ("How many feet you can move with a single move action on your turn. Each square on a battle grid represents 5 feet.") and so do the Modes of Movement listings. Further more, the fact that you can double move completely destroys the fact that you measure movement in anything but spending actions to get up that distance: if you spend a free action to move, it is still hindered by penalties.

Using 5ft to get 5ft is absolutely in the rules. The bits about 5ft becoming 2.5ft when you have a speed penalty is nowhere to be found in the rules.

A similar rule is found under Difficult Terrain, in which you pay an extra cost for each square of movement, but they in no way reference speed penalties as a situation to apply them to.

The fact that they don't mention them means the specific of speed halving trumps the general of 5ft stepping not having something that says it isn't subject to halving.

The Concordance

AwesomenessDog wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:


It's right there in the fact that you are spending actions to gain movement speed (and we are assuming base speed is 30ft), if I spend an action to gain 30ft of movement, then I have up to 30ft of movement; if I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, then I have up to 5ft of movement; if my movement speed is halved, then when I spend an action to get 30ft of movement, I get to move up to 15ft; if my speed is halved and I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, I get 2.5 rounded down ft of movement (0ft of movement). This is supported by the glossary listing of movement ("How many feet you can move with a single move action on your turn. Each square on a battle grid represents 5 feet.") and so do the Modes of Movement listings. Further more, the fact that you can double move completely destroys the fact that you measure movement in anything but spending actions to get up that distance: if you spend a free action to move, it is still hindered by penalties.

Using 5ft to get 5ft is absolutely in the rules. The bits about 5ft becoming 2.5ft when you have a speed penalty is nowhere to be found in the rules.

A similar rule is found under Difficult Terrain, in which you pay an extra cost for each square of movement, but they in no way reference speed penalties as a situation to apply them to.

The fact that they don't mention them means the specific of speed halving trumps the general of 5ft stepping not having something that says it isn't subject to halving.

The fact it doesn't mention it means we go by the rules, which say we can 5ft step as long as we have a speed greater than 5ft and we aren't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:


It's right there in the fact that you are spending actions to gain movement speed (and we are assuming base speed is 30ft), if I spend an action to gain 30ft of movement, then I have up to 30ft of movement; if I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, then I have up to 5ft of movement; if my movement speed is halved, then when I spend an action to get 30ft of movement, I get to move up to 15ft; if my speed is halved and I spend an action to gain 5ft of movement, I get 2.5 rounded down ft of movement (0ft of movement). This is supported by the glossary listing of movement ("How many feet you can move with a single move action on your turn. Each square on a battle grid represents 5 feet.") and so do the Modes of Movement listings. Further more, the fact that you can double move completely destroys the fact that you measure movement in anything but spending actions to get up that distance: if you spend a free action to move, it is still hindered by penalties.

Using 5ft to get 5ft is absolutely in the rules. The bits about 5ft becoming 2.5ft when you have a speed penalty is nowhere to be found in the rules.

A similar rule is found under Difficult Terrain, in which you pay an extra cost for each square of movement, but they in no way reference speed penalties as a situation to apply them to.

The fact that they don't mention them means the specific of speed halving trumps the general of 5ft stepping not having something that says it isn't subject to halving.
The fact it doesn't mention it means we go by the rules, which say we can 5ft step as long as we have a speed greater than 5ft and we aren't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.

You have which one and which is specific backwards. I'm also not saying there is anything technically barring you from taking 5ft steps, just that they don't let you move anywhere.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The fact that they don't mention them means the specific of speed halving trumps the general of 5ft stepping not having something that says it isn't subject to halving.

The problem is that the rules for halving a characters speed do not actually change the cost of moving into squares. So there is nothing specific about them that overrules the general.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The fact that they don't mention them means the specific of speed halving trumps the general of 5ft stepping not having something that says it isn't subject to halving.
The problem is that the rules for halving a characters speed do not actually change the cost of moving into squares. So there is nothing specific about them that overrules the general.

I'm not saying the cost is changed, I'm saying the total distance able to be moved is reduced to literally nothing. (5/2[rounded down]=0)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
I'm not saying the cost is changed, I'm saying the total distance able to be moved is reduced to literally nothing. (5/2[rounded down]=0)

But that's not true. They move at half speed, which means their speed is halved, not the distance they move. The only way they can't 5ft step is if halving their speed would reduce it to less than 5ft.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Blackmane, are you sure it's hair and not that straw man that I cut down?

It's true: you have certainly done a pretty good job of cutting down your own strawman - if movement of consensus in this thread is anything to go by anyway.


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Player: "I walk 10 feet up to the door."
GM: "OK, but you're under the influence of a Slow spell, so you only move 5 feet."
Player: "What? My base speed is 50!"
GM: "But when you're under a Slow spell, you move half as fast. So when you try to move 10 feet, your speed is 10, halved to 5."
Player: "Then... I walk 20 feet and make it 10?"
GM: "You can't walk 20 feet! The door is in the way!"

Community Manager

Removed some posts and their responses. Please don't insult other posters.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Once again, 5ft stepping is its own individual speed.
Source?

The fact that nothing links your normal speed to your 5ft speed (except for a time when 5ft is disallowed because of your base speed). You are spending actions to get movement, you spend an action to get your normal "walking" movement speed, you spend two to get your "hustle" speed, a full round action to get x3/x4(/x5) your walking speed - your "running" speed, or a free action to get a 5ft speed. Each are subject to halving, you have nothing that states otherwise from speed is given based on actions spent.

@Matthew Downie, your counter example is ridiculous on all standpoints (the hypothetical GM, your interpretation of what I am saying, and the application of how speed halving works), and I will not address it any more than that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The fact that nothing links your normal speed to your 5ft speed (except for a time when 5ft is disallowed because of your base speed).

There is no such thing as a '5ft speed' for a character that has greater than 5ft speed. There is 'moving 5ft' which is certainly not covered by any half speed rules, as it is movement and not speed.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The fact that nothing links your normal speed to your 5ft speed (except for a time when 5ft is disallowed because of your base speed).
There is no such thing as a '5ft speed' for a character that has greater than 5ft speed. There is 'moving 5ft' which is certainly not covered by any half speed rules, as it is movement and not speed.

Then are you arguing someone with a 30ft movement speed is taking "a slow, careful step" at the speed of 5ft/s (30ft/6seconds) or at the speed of 5ft/6s? You are limited to 5ft per round while 5ft stepping and there for going at a lesser speed when slowed and must spend a larger action to effectively go (spend) more than 5ft.

Movement is defined as happening across the entire turn, your movement speed normally is 30ft/6 seconds throughout the entire turn with one movement action, not ~90ft/6 seconds for ~2 seconds of a round and stopping. Another way to put this is, "until you spend an action of so kind to move, your movement speed is 0, and at which point your speed is now however far you can at most move by based on the action spent subject to penalties and bonuses as normal.

Personally, I don't like to pretend I'm in cartoon physics land when people want to cheese their way out of a spell.

The Concordance

This isn't going anywhere. Let me know when rules are brought back into play instead of player math logic.

Sovereign Court

likewise /sign out


ShieldLawrence wrote:
This isn't going anywhere. Let me know when rules are brought back into play instead of player math logic.

The rules are there, you're the one adding words that aren't there: nothing links 5ft step to your movement speed.


AwesomenessDog, we know what you're saying: that if someone is slowed, the amount of effort it would normally take them to move 5' will only get them 2.5' instead.

Thing is, a creature's speed is in no way tied to their ability to 5' step (apart from that one caveat). A creature who normally has a speed of 120' per move action who is slowed, trying to pass an obstacle, etc, resulting in their effective movement distance being only 20' would still be able to 5' step. This is because your ability to take 5' steps isn't based on your speed, but rather, on the presence or absence of darkness or difficult terrain.

If it would make it clearer, replace '5 foot step' with '5 foot teleport'. Would being slow impact a creature's ability to teleport 5' as a special action? Hopefully, obviously not. Why not? Because teleportation is another ability that isn't dependent on a creature's speed. Now, granted, a 5' step isn't a teleport, but it is equally as untied to things that impair movement. (with the exception of the 3 often quoted factors)


From my point of view this is a discussion where RAW and my RAI are very conflictive.

On one hand I agree that the list of situations that are considered hampering enough are two: difficult terrain and poor visibility. That is RAW.

On the other hand, when you check the section for Tactical Movement, Obstacles are also included. In my stand, it is clearly RAI that an Obstacle should be included in those kind of things that impedes certain movements -which include 5-Foot-Step-.

What's the problem? The problem is that, usually, what represents an obstacle must be observed in a particular way. Is a 50 Feet chasm an obstacle? Well, not for a bird capable of flying, that's for sure.

---

This interpretation does not solve the other part of the problem, which constitutes the main problem to solve here, and it is: when do we pay for the extra cost -penalty- of difficult terrain, obstacles and poor visibility?

Again, RAW as it has been pointed out by many, the stand is "on the square you are going into", and not the square you depart of.

So, independently from if we consider hampering enough an Obstacle such as Grease to forbid the 5-Foot-Step or not, by RAW, we should consider. normally, entering a Grease area the point for applying the rules of hampered movement, and not the moment when you leave it.

That would be normally.

Again in conflict with my interpretation. I agree with the general rule, but, as it stands, it is clear to me that for the description of the spell, is mainly intended to be cast upon the square where the target is, and not the square the target will be(*1). Thus being said, for me, RAI, the most conscious way to read the rules here are taking Grease as a specific case for the general rule, and say that, in this case, and this case alone, Grease hampers movement withing the affected area, not in the area around it.

---

Finnally I want to make note, again, that as long as any GM applies one interpretation or the other in a consistent way I do believe this is not a game's balance tragedy.

My GM always considers the majority's interpretation for this spell? Ok, I'm fine with it.

Otherwise my GM always considers AwesomeDog's interpretation? Ok, fine with that also.

The main problem here would be, for me, if my GM uses one or the other interpretation arbitrarily.

---

(*1) I want to point out that, even on the description of the spell, there is a sentence that suggests some targeted and affected creatures may not want to move ("Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed."), and this would only make sense if moving from within to the outside of affected area, made any sense, because if there was no penalty from moving this way, this sentence would not be logically required in strategic terms.


After seeing this discussion continue, I suspect that the PDT may respond to it. If that is the case, then I would offer the following thoughts.

1. The critical question is whether the rules the rules allow a creature to stand anywhere within the 5' square that it tactically controls. The Cover rules seem to suggest so. And If so, then a creature is not automatically deemed to be standing in the middle of the square, but can be standing on any edge or corner they choose.

2. As it has been pointed out, movement costs are paid based on what square you move into, not out of. So I don't pay any terrain penalty for moving out of square, no matter what it contains.

3. Putting 1 & 3 together, a creature can be considered to be standing on any edge of the square they choose and thus move into a non-grease square with out having moved "within" the grease.

So the answer is yes, you can take a 5' step out of grease without penalty so long as you can take a 5' step in to a non-grease square.

Perhaps another way to look at this is to get rid of the grid. Then we ask a question, can a creature ever be considered to be standing in grease, but on the edge of it so that the first step they take is onto non-grease? I think this same question is asked of terrain. If I am standing in difficult terrain and then move into non-difficult terrain, do I still have to pay the price of moving "within" difficult terrain? The answer is clearly no.

There's been some discussion about the terms of "within or through" grease. While I am sure this has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread, I will add my voice to those who interpret this in the context of the movement rules. "Within" means I start in a grease square and move to another grease square, regardless of where I ultimately end up. "Through" means I start outside of the grease, move though a grease square, and end up in a non-grease square. Again, it's about interpreting the words within the context of the game, not normal every day usage.

It should be noted that the rules specifically do not require a penalty for moving "out of" grease, be it a 5' step or just normal movement. In other words, a creature gets its full movement if its first square is into a non-grease square and it never reenters the grease.

Again, I think the interesting question for the PDT surfaces if we answer the question for when there is no grid and then making the answer work consistently for both grid and non-grid situations. Or put another way:

Do I always have to move within grease to move out of it? Is that a general rule for PF or even a specific rule for the spell?


N N 959 wrote:

After seeing this discussion continue, I suspect that the PDT may respond to it. If that is the case, then I would offer the following thoughts.

1. The critical question is whether the rules the rules allow a creature to stand anywhere within the 5' square that it tactically controls. The Cover rules seem to suggest so. And If so, then a creature is not automatically deemed to be standing in the middle of the square, but can be standing on any edge or corner they choose.

2. As it has been pointed out, movement costs are paid based on what square you move into, not out of. So I don't pay any terrain penalty for moving out of square, no matter what it contains.

3. Putting 1 & 3 together, a creature can be considered to be standing on any edge of the square they choose and thus move into a non-grease square with out having moved "within" the grease.

So the answer is yes, you can take a 5' step out of grease without penalty so long as you can take a 5' step in to a non-grease square.

Perhaps another way to look at this is to get rid of the grid. Then we ask a question, can a creature ever be considered to be standing in grease, but on the edge of it so that the first step they take is onto non-grease? I think this same question is asked of terrain. If I am standing in difficult terrain and then move into non-difficult terrain, do I still have to pay the price of moving "within" difficult terrain? The answer is clearly no.

There's been some discussion about the terms of "within or through" grease. While I am sure this has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread, I will add my voice to those who interpret this in the context of the movement rules. "Within" means I start in a grease square and move to another grease square, regardless of where I ultimately end up. "Through" means I start outside of the grease, move though a grease square, and end up in a non-grease square. Again, it's about interpreting the words within the context of the game, not normal every day usage.

It...

Were we on a floating grid, I would agree "you can X-Step out of grease" assuming you were already straddling the boarder (straddling possible because floating grid) as you would basically have one foot already out, but since this is a 5ft grid we are to assume that some of the finer details are abstracted: the abstraction for this specific case being where inside of that 5ft grid is our grease slick actually is. Should our wizard cast a grease spell, we are assuming that even though, even on the 5ft grid, no matter how he places it, the thing he wants affected is "bordering" the edge of the spell; however, in a floating grid, it could be placed it isn't possible to escape with a 5ft step. The abstraction is there to keep silly things like 5ft stepping out an effect for free (no action spent and no save required).

Because you start in grease, you are still subject to the spell which is different than say leaving a thorny shrub.

Byakko wrote:

AwesomenessDog, we know what you're saying: that if someone is slowed, the amount of effort it would normally take them to move 5' will only get them 2.5' instead.

Thing is, a creature's speed is in no way tied to their ability to 5' step (apart from that one caveat). A creature who normally has a speed of 120' per move action who is slowed, trying to pass an obstacle, etc, resulting in their effective movement distance being only 20' would still be able to 5' step. This is because your ability to take 5' steps isn't based on your speed, but rather, on the presence or absence of darkness or difficult terrain.

If it would make it clearer, replace '5 foot step' with '5 foot teleport'. Would being slow impact a creature's ability to teleport 5' as a special action? Hopefully, obviously not. Why not? Because teleportation is another ability that isn't dependent on a creature's speed. Now, granted, a 5' step isn't a teleport, but it is equally as untied to things that impair movement. (with the exception of the 3 often quoted factors)

The issue with that is that while you are slowed, moving 5ft requires the same exertion as moving 10ft when not slowed. Because you don't normally get to go 10ft with a 5ft step, you aren't spending "enough effort" (high enough of an action) to go 5ft while slowed without spending a move action. This is 5ft step is a listed action instead of just a "hey, if you don't spend a move action to actually move around, its all cool: just go 5ft anyway." Think of it as moving 5ft while slowed is effectively moving/spending 10ft of movement (5ft teleport is just weird). Besides that, its just bickering over whether or not 5ft step is subject to reduction penalties: nothing in the rules says they are or aren't immune to reduction so are they or aren't they?

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