FAQ: Can you 5' step out of Grease?


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Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

The immediate implications are if your wizard casts Grease on an enemy so that you can 5' step away. If you can't make a 5' step out of grease, then they're blocked from making a full attack on you. If you can make a 5' step out of Grease then assuming they pass the DC 10 Acrobatics check they can make a full attack.

The discussion for this question is here.

Grease wrote:

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.

The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.


Since a 5' step is a very slow and careful movement made so that you don't expose yourself or lose balance, I would say that you can absolutely take a 5' step out of grease.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Seeing that you cannot 5-foot-step in difficult terrain, and that a grease spell creates terrain that's even more hazardous than that, I conclude that one cannot 5-foot step out of the area of effect of a grease spell. I rule that one must take a move action.


I do not believe that a 5 foot step is allowed since Grease reduces a characters speed by half. As it reduces the characters speed, it would count as difficult terrain which would not allow a 5 foot step.

Grease:

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.

The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.

5 Foot Step:

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

Difficult Terrain:

Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.
If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.

Edit - I have hit FAQ just for official clarification as one could argue that only spells that specifically create difficult terrain create difficult terrain but still believe the answer is no.

Sovereign Court

I've also hit FAQ because the issue could stand to get some clarification. Because people will tend to heap all kinds of things together - although they may be similar, they're not the same.

For example: you can't 5ft step if the terrain is difficult, i.e. doubles the cost of moving. There is no rule saying you can't 5ft step if you are slowed to half speed (Slow spell, Entangled condition), but people tend to equate those two different things.


Ascalaphus wrote:

I've also hit FAQ because the issue could stand to get some clarification. Because people will tend to heap all kinds of things together - although they may be similar, they're not the same.

For example: you can't 5ft step if the terrain is difficult, i.e. doubles the cost of moving. There is no rule saying you can't 5ft step if you are slowed to half speed (Slow spell, Entangled condition), but people tend to equate those two different things.

The definition of difficult terrain is that all squares cost two movement, grease makes the squares count as two movement if you've succeeded at the check, therefore grease is difficult terrain as its effects are encompassed by the definition. (Grease also states, by omission even though its very obviously implied, that you cant run or charge through it like difficult terrain.) It is difficult terrain with some bonus penalties added on. Contrary to seemingly popular belief, the lack of a word that is defined does not make it so that when it is defined without the word itself it's definition does not apply.

Regardless of that fallacy, half of 5ft is still less than enough distance to make a 5ft step and cannot be done.

Sorry to bring discussion here.

The Concordance

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You absolutely can 5' step out of Grease on account of:
-It is not technically difficult terrain anyway.
-Movement is measured be the square you will be entering, which is not going to be a Grease square and hence no penalty.

FAQ'd because I'd like to see it settled.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

You absolutely can 5' step out of Grease on account of:

-It is not technically difficult terrain anyway.
-Movement is measured be the square you will be entering, which is not going to be a Grease square and hence no penalty.

FAQ'd because I'd like to see it settled.

It is technically difficult terrain, it has all the penalties of it and then some, lack of nomenclature does not mean lack of rule.

Movement is also measured as per the square you leave, hence why you don't provoke AoO while entering a square but when you leave one, (without some preventative measure) you do.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Nothing prevents you from 5ft stepping out of difficult terrain. Likewise, nothing prevents you from 5ft stepping out of grease. The GM could rule that the square you are in counts as 'moving within or through the area' if they like, which would then require the Acrobatics check. But it would still be a 5ft step and not provoke.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Nothing prevents you from 5ft stepping out of difficult terrain. Likewise, nothing prevents you from 5ft stepping out of grease. The GM could rule that the square you are in counts as 'moving within or through the area' if they like, which would then require the Acrobatics check. But it would still be a 5ft step and not provoke.

To elaborate on this, movement is always determined by the square you are entering, not the square you are leaving. Special Movement Rules in the combat chapter has a diagram explaining this. Here's the example text:

CRB wrote:


The fighter's first move costs him 5 feet (or 1 square). His next costs 5 feet also, but his third (his 2nd diagonal) costs him 10 feet. Next he moves into difficult terrain, also costing him 10 feet. At this point (#6), the fighter has moved 30 feet—one move action. The last square is a diagonal move in difficult terrain, which costs 15 feet; he must spend his turn's standard action to move this far.

Thus, leaving the Grease square doesn't mess you up at all - you don't care what the terrain qualities of that square are. You only care about the state of the square you are entering.

Sovereign Court

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

I've also hit FAQ because the issue could stand to get some clarification. Because people will tend to heap all kinds of things together - although they may be similar, they're not the same.

For example: you can't 5ft step if the terrain is difficult, i.e. doubles the cost of moving. There is no rule saying you can't 5ft step if you are slowed to half speed (Slow spell, Entangled condition), but people tend to equate those two different things.

The definition of difficult terrain is that all squares cost two movement, grease makes the squares count as two movement if you've succeeded at the check, therefore grease is difficult terrain as its effects are encompassed by the definition. (Grease also states, by omission even though its very obviously implied, that you cant run or charge through it like difficult terrain.) It is difficult terrain with some bonus penalties added on. Contrary to seemingly popular belief, the lack of a word that is defined does not make it so that when it is defined without the word itself it's definition does not apply.

Regardless of that fallacy, half of 5ft is still less than enough distance to make a 5ft step and cannot be done.

Sorry to bring discussion here.

First, you're responding to a point I wasn't making. I was talking about the difference between things that slow you vs. things that make terrain difficult.

Second, you're mixing up cause and effect here. The definition of difficult terrain is "Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs,", the effect is "Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. "

Not all things that have the same effect stem from the same source. It's the same as saying "if it rains the streets get wet, the streets are wet, therefore it must be raining".

Besides, greased terrain clearly isn't the same as regular difficult terrain, because in regular terrain you don't have to make acrobatics checks to move.


You must make a Save to move in Grease - failure means you can't move that round. Moving into a greased square isn't mentioned, within or through is. So moving in Grease depends on making the Save as a prerequisite (i.e. before you can move).

It doesn't "slow" your movement it makes it difficult as it's slippy the clue is in the name.

No 5' step what's to clarify?


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
The definition of difficult terrain is that all squares cost two movement

The effect of difficult terrain is that each square counts as two squares of movement. The definition of difficult terrain is "such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs".

AwesomenessDog wrote:
grease makes the squares count as two movement if you've succeeded at the check

Grease makes you move at half speed, if you make a DC10 Acrobatics check, and prevents you from moving at all if you don't.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
therefore grease is difficult terrain as its effects are encompassed by the definition

Even if grease made each square count as two squares of movement, which it doesn't (it has a different effect with a potentially similar outcome), this conclusion wouldn't hold. A => C and B => C doesn't mean A = B. Also, as you state below, the effects of grease are not encompassed by the effects of difficult terrain.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
It is difficult terrain with some bonus penalties added on.

Grease has its own set of penalties, some of which are similar (but not identical) to those of difficult terrain. That's why I think grease shouldn't be treated as difficult terrain - its effects are clearly spelled out, and to apply the penalties of difficult terrain as well seems uncalled-for. Having said that, if a GM feels that greased areas come under the definition of dificult terrain, then that's up to them.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Regardless of that fallacy, half of 5ft is still less than enough distance to make a 5ft step and cannot be done.

Halving your speed doesn't mean you can't take a 5-foot step, unless your starting speed is 10 feet or less, as spelled out in the Take 5-Foot Step section.


So does Ice count as difficult Terrain?

PRD wrote:

Ice Effects

Characters walking on ice must spend 2 squares of movement to enter a square covered by ice, and the DC for Acrobatics checks increases by +5. Characters in prolonged contact with ice might run the risk of taking damage from severe cold.

I mean it doesn't say so specifically so...

or

PRD wrote:
Snow: Falling snow has the same effects on visibility, ranged weapon attacks, and skill checks as rain, and it costs 2 squares of movement to enter a snow-covered square. A day of snowfall leaves 1d6 inches of snow on the ground.

Is that difficult ground?

By the logic being used for Grease Ice and Snow don't preclude a 5' step is that what we are saying here? Unless it states "difficult ground" or "Darkness" it doesn't count for 5' steps?

To add to the fun Entangle in 3.5 uses the "Half Movement"terminology as does Grease but in PFRPG it uses Difficult Terrain...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
CountofUndolpho wrote:

By the logic being used for Grease Ice and Snow don't preclude a 5' step is that what we are saying here? Unless it states "difficult ground" or "Darkness" it doesn't count for 5' steps?

To add to the fun Entangle in 3.5 uses the "Half Movement"terminology as does Grease but in PFRPG it uses Difficult Terrain...

You can 5ft step out of Entangle as well as snow and ice the same as you can 5ft step out of Grease.


Quote:
The definition of difficult terrain is "such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs".

Those are examples. Not a definition. There are explicitly other forms of difficult terrain

emtangle: The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.

The tentacles created by this spell cannot be damaged, but they can be dispelled as normal. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the tentacles last.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
The definition of difficult terrain is "such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs".
Those are examples. Not a definition. There are explicitly other forms of difficult terrain

Absolutely. Which is why is included the "such as" in the quote, and also said that a GM could rule that greased areas were difficult terrain (although I wouldn't).


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
CountofUndolpho wrote:
To add to the fun Entangle in 3.5 uses the "Half Movement"terminology as does Grease but in PFRPG it uses Difficult Terrain...

So - why would they change it if the two things were identical? Furthermore, why change entangle but not grease? This only serves to increase my conviction that greased areas should not be treated as difficult terrain.


Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different. Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

On a purely definition base, since no actual definition is given, terrain just means the space your moving and difficult just means harder than normal. The effects of grease qualify as different terrain.

On a purely effect comparison basis, all of the penalties associated with grease to those of difficult terrain, grease is a more harsh version of severe version of difficult terrain. Since difficult terrain and other speed penalty modifiers are exponential instead of additive, saying "half speed" and "double movement cost" makes no real difference, and since lack of (a) specific word(s) does not equate to lack/difference of mechanics, we see how grease is still has more than all of the difficult terrain penalties.

Beyond semantics, I see no reason why a 5ft step is not affected by movement penalties, and you can not take a 2.5ft step out of a square as a small+ sized creature.

(@Asalaphus, I know, I was just using your post a reply since, even though it may not be yours, a stance was pointed out.)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

grease doesn't say it's difficult terrain; it spells out exactly what happens if you're in those squares

furthermore, it's irrelevant, because you're stepping out of those squares into a non-greasy square (you're not moving within or through the affected squares)

5-foot step is a go

/PDK


5ft step shouldn't be possible.

No need to even talk about the difficult terrain part.

The acrobatics check to move "within or through" the area of grease, even if successful, means half speed. So you can't take a 5ft step, as it requires 10ft of movement, so it would provoke, prevent full round/attack actions, etc.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TGMaxMaxer wrote:
The acrobatics check to move "within or through" the area of grease, even if successful, means half speed.

Half speed means that your 30ft movement is reduced to 15. You can still take a 5ft step even then.

Since the square outside the grease is not difficult terrain, it only costs 5ft of movement to move into that square. Thus there is no point where the 5ft costs 10ft.

Grand Lodge

CountofUndolpho wrote:

You must make a Save to move in Grease - failure means you can't move that round. Moving into a greased square isn't mentioned, within or through is. So moving in Grease depends on making the Save as a prerequisite (i.e. before you can move).

It doesn't "slow" your movement it makes it difficult as it's slippy the clue is in the name.

No 5' step what's to clarify?

How about how what you are saying relates to the spell Grease?

1) No need to make a save to move in a greased area, just an acrobatics check. If you fail the acrobatics check, then you might get to make a save:

Quote:
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details).

2) The issue is that people are claiming that moving OUT of a greased area, into a non-greased area, still follows the above rules. The rules for movement, other than provoking AoOs, always refer to the area you are moving INTO, not the area you are moving OUT of.

So, if you need to cross an area that is greased, you have to make the acrobatics check, but if you are moving OUT of a greased square, into a non-greased square, you do not. Remember that Grease covers a 2 square by 2 square area, so this means it is referring to movement WITHIN that area, or movement INTO that area, not movement OUT of that area.

Then again, most people also forget that stairs are not difficult terrain unless they are specified as being difficult.


AwesomenessDog wrote:

Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different. Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

The spell "slow" also halves your movement speed. Are you of the opinion that the slow spell also prevents taking a 5' step?


kinevon wrote:

2) The issue is that people are claiming that moving OUT of a greased area, into a non-greased area, still follows the above rules. The rules for movement, other than provoking AoOs, always refer to the area you are moving INTO, not the area you are moving OUT of.

So, if you need to cross an area that is greased, you have to make the acrobatics check, but if you are moving OUT of a greased square, into a non-greased square, you do not. Remember that Grease covers a 2 square by 2 square area, so this means it is referring to movement WITHIN that area, or movement INTO that area, not movement OUT of that area.

Then again, most people also forget that stairs are not difficult terrain unless they are specified as being difficult.

If you are moving out of Grease you are starting within Grease so you need an Acrobatics Roll(sorry not a save per se) to move. It's a rule to do with movement and is in the spell description and doesn't reference the square you move into at all. The Acrobatics roll if failed precludes movement and at worst makes you fall. So the Acrobatics check depends upon where you start the movement not where you end it. At least that would seem logical to me.


Callum wrote:

...

So - why would they change it if the two things were identical? ...

Because as evidenced by many Rules discussions on this site chunks of 3.5 were lifted as is into PFRPG and not necessarily because they were exactly the same in both rule sets but because they didn't have time to rewrite everything. c.f. Off-Hand


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
CountofUndolpho wrote:
Callum wrote:

...

So - why would they change it if the two things were identical? ...
Because as evidenced by many Rules discussions on this site chunks of 3.5 were lifted as is into PFRPG and not necessarily because they were exactly the same in both rule sets but because they didn't have time to rewrite everything. c.f. Off-Hand

That's answering a different question from the one I asked.


Quote:
The effect of difficult terrain is that each square counts as two squares of movement. The definition of difficult terrain is "such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs".

That's not actually a definition either, as a definition requires both necessary and sufficient conditions be met or implied. Difficult terrain HAS no definition in the book, because they don't even pretend or attempt to meet those requirements, they're clearly just listing some random examples and leaving it up to you.


bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:

Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different. Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

The spell "slow" also halves your movement speed. Are you of the opinion that the slow spell also prevents taking a 5' step?

Actually, yes; it requires 10ft of movement to move 5ft with slow, since its not a 10ft step (although some larger monsters should be allowed to do 10+ft steps - seriously, a 64+ft tall titan can only shimmy at a speed of 5ft every 6 seconds?), you can't 5ft step with slow, grease, (otherwise) difficult terrain, etc.


Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
The effect of difficult terrain is that each square counts as two squares of movement. The definition of difficult terrain is "such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs".
That's not actually a definition either, as a definition requires both necessary and sufficient conditions be met or implied. Difficult terrain HAS no definition in the book, because they don't even pretend or attempt to meet those requirements, they're clearly just listing some random examples and leaving it up to you.

So we follow the literal definition of "Difficult terrain", terrain or walking/swimming/flying/burrowing space that is harder than normal to move in. Grease, by literal interpretation of definition applied as RAW, is difficult terrain. Does that mean we double the speed penalty (no because, as you mentioned, there is no listed effect for difficult terrain and) the slowing is already covered by the effects of the spell.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

grease doesn't say it's difficult terrain; it spells out exactly what happens if you're in those squares

furthermore, it's irrelevant, because you're stepping out of those squares into a non-greasy square (you're not moving within or through the affected squares)

5-foot step is a go

/PDK

I love repeating myself:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
lack of nomenclature does not mean lack of rule.

It means nothing whether or not the call out the rule as to whether or not its in play; to think so is closed minded.

"Moving through" is defined as leaving or passing over a square, not moving into it, by the combat rules. Read the attacks of opportunity section closely. That being said, the magically conjured (meaning actually there and real as real can be for the duration of the spell) suddenly is no longer on your shoe as soon as you step out? I could see the argument for 5ft stepping into a square as there is nothing slippery coating your feet on the first step into the square; the intention of the spell is also not stop you from through from the other side but to keep people that were already in the space from leaving easily: If a wizard put down some grease in front of me, as long as I'm not Fatso the Fighter, I can just take 10 on an acrobatics check and jump right over. If I could just 5ft step out and I can jump over it from outside of the space, the spell is as worthless as metal armor to a druid.


Quote:
So we follow the literal definition of "Difficult terrain", terrain or walking/swimming/flying/burrowing space that is harder than normal to move in. Grease, by literal interpretation of definition applied as RAW, is difficult terrain.

That's a fair argument, but it doesn't matter anyway. You don't pay any penalty for moving out of normal difficult terrain into normal terrain, so for the actual question as asked in the OP, the answer is still "yes" even if grease is difficult terrain.

What's much more interesting is whether you can 5' step WITHIN grease, or INTO it, but unfortunately, the OP did not ask that in the FAQ question. The question asked I think has a clear answer already.

Grand Lodge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:

Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different. Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

The spell "slow" also halves your movement speed. Are you of the opinion that the slow spell also prevents taking a 5' step?
Actually, yes; it requires 10ft of movement to move 5ft with slow, since its not a 10ft step (although some larger monsters should be allowed to do 10+ft steps - seriously, a 64+ft tall titan can only shimmy at a speed of 5ft every 6 seconds?), you can't 5ft step with slow, grease, (otherwise) difficult terrain, etc.

Actually, no. It does NOT take 10' of movement to move 5' while under the effects of Slow.

Slow wrote:
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
Take 5-Foot Step wrote:
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

Neither Slow nor Grease are difficult terrain. Neither are they darkness. As long as your move action can take you more than 5', you can take a 5' step instead.

CountofUndolpho wrote:
If you are moving out of Grease you are starting within Grease so you need an Acrobatics Roll(sorry not a save per se) to move. It's a rule to do with movement and is in the spell description and doesn't reference the square you move into at all. The Acrobatics roll if failed precludes movement and at worst makes you fall. So the Acrobatics check depends upon where you start the movement not where you end it. At least that would seem logical to me.
[quote-=Grease]A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.

XXXX

XABX
XCDX
XXXX

For this example, ABC & D represent the squares with Grease in them.
Moving from any X square to A, B, C, or D constitutes entering the greased area, so moving within the grease.
Moving from A to B, C, or D constitutes moving within the greased[ area.
Moving from A, B, C, or D to any square marked X constitutes moving OUT of the greased area, and does not require an acrobatics check, as you are not moving within the greased area, nor does that movement, either as a 5' step or as regular movement, take more than 5' of movement to perform.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

grease doesn't say it's difficult terrain; it spells out exactly what happens if you're in those squares

furthermore, it's irrelevant, because you're stepping out of those squares into a non-greasy square (you're not moving within or through the affected squares)

5-foot step is a go

/PDK

I love repeating myself:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
lack of nomenclature does not mean lack of rule.

It means nothing whether or not the call out the rule as to whether or not its in play; to think so is closed minded.

"Moving through" is defined as leaving or passing over a square, not moving into it, by the combat rules. Read the attacks of opportunity section closely. That being said, the magically conjured (meaning actually there and real as real can be for the duration of the spell) suddenly is no longer on your shoe as soon as you step out? I could see the argument for 5ft stepping into a square as there is nothing slippery coating your feet on the first step into the square; the intention of the spell is also not stop you from through from the other side but to keep people that were already in the space from leaving easily: If a wizard put down some grease in front of me, as long as I'm not Fatso the Fighter, I can just take 10 on an acrobatics check and jump right over. If I could just 5ft step out and I can jump over it from outside of the space, the spell is as worthless as metal armor to a druid.

You're attempting to place realism into the ruleset to establish a houserule precedent. The rules are an approximation of reality, not reality itself.

As I posted earlier in this thread and has been reaffirmed several times by other posters, your movement requirements are determined by the square you are entering. That's how the Special Movement Rules section of the Combat chapter covers it in its example graphic. This is why you can 5' step out of the area of grease.

Let's not have another one of these arguments again, please.


I would like to contrast this with the Solid Fog spell which states:

Quote:
Creatures moving through a solid fog move at half their normal speed

And then later on:

Quote:
A creature cannot take a 5-foot-step while in solid fog.

First, it's clear that a creature at the edge of a Solid Fog cannot 5' step out of it due to the second quote.

However, this might either support the 5' step out of grease case (because it lacks this additional sentence), or oppose it (solid fog's extra sentence is a clarification to the general rule that any creature within a spell effect is affected instead of using difficult terrain guidelines).

Sovereign Court

Byakko wrote:

I would like to contrast this with the Solid Fog spell which states:

Quote:
Creatures moving through a solid fog move at half their normal speed

And then later on:

Quote:
A creature cannot take a 5-foot-step while in solid fog.

First, it's clear that a creature at the edge of a Solid Fog cannot 5' step out of it due to the second quote.

However, this might either support the 5' step out of grease case (because it lacks this additional sentence), or oppose it (solid fog's extra sentence is a clarification to the general rule that any creature within a spell effect is affected instead of using difficult terrain guidelines).

It doesn't really prove anything; it looks like Solid Fog is providing a specific rule for that special case, as an exception to whatever rules may apply normally.

Sovereign Court

Crimeo wrote:
Quote:
The effect of difficult terrain is that each square counts as two squares of movement. The definition of difficult terrain is "such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs".
That's not actually a definition either, as a definition requires both necessary and sufficient conditions be met or implied. Difficult terrain HAS no definition in the book, because they don't even pretend or attempt to meet those requirements, they're clearly just listing some random examples and leaving it up to you.

I think this is the heart of the problem. There are actually examples of "extra difficult" terrain listed that cost 4x movement costs, but those still seem to be considered difficult terrain, subject to relevant abilities etcetera.

Sovereign Court

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different. Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

No, they're fundamentally different things which sometimes have the same consequences.

Difficult terrain is a property of the terrain, halved speed is a property of the character. If I'm Slowed, that doesn't make the terrain difficult for you. And I can still make 5ft steps.

I do think Grease is badly written in that it would make much more sense to write it as difficult terrain instead of as halving a PC's speed.


What about Ice and Snow they both use the "half movement" wording (from 3.5) are they difficult ground? By the arguments being used here they aren't and you can 5' step in them - would anyone play that?


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CountofUndolpho wrote:

What about Ice and Snow they both use the "half movement" wording (from 3.5) are they difficult ground? By the arguments being used here they aren't and you can 5' step in them - would anyone play that?

CRB, Environment chapter wrote:
Snow: Falling snow has the same effects on visibility, ranged weapon attacks, and skill checks as rain, and it costs 2 squares of movement to enter a snow-covered square. A day of snowfall leaves 1d6 inches of snow on the ground.
Same chapter wrote:

Ice Effects

Characters walking on ice must spend 2 squares of movement to enter a square covered by ice, and the DC for Acrobatics checks increases by +5. Characters in prolonged contact with ice might run the risk of taking damage from severe cold.

Hey look! Examples of my argument.


Sure you could, but why would you want to leave all the gyros and baclava?


kinevon wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:

Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different. Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

The spell "slow" also halves your movement speed. Are you of the opinion that the slow spell also prevents taking a 5' step?
Actually, yes; it requires 10ft of movement to move 5ft with slow, since its not a 10ft step (although some larger monsters should be allowed to do 10+ft steps - seriously, a 64+ft tall titan can only shimmy at a speed of 5ft every 6 seconds?), you can't 5ft step with slow, grease, (otherwise) difficult terrain, etc.

Actually, no. It does NOT take 10' of movement to move 5' while under the effects of Slow.

Slow wrote:
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
Take 5-Foot Step wrote:
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

Neither Slow nor Grease are difficult terrain. Neither are they darkness. As long as your move action can take you more than 5', you can take a 5' step instead.

CountofUndolpho wrote:
If you are moving out of Grease you are starting within Grease so you need an Acrobatics Roll(sorry not a save per se) to move. It's a rule to do with movement and is in the spell description and doesn't reference the square you move into at all. The Acrobatics roll if failed precludes movement and at worst makes you fall. So the Acrobatics check depends upon where you start the movement not where you end it. At least that would seem logical to me.
[quote-=Grease]A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.
...

Nothing cancels out the half movement speed from slow when taking 5ft steps by what you quoted, so yes it still takes 10ft to do a 5ft step under the slow effect.

Claiming grease is difficult terrain or isn't to fuel your argument is circular fallacy. As pointed out by Crimeo, "Difficult terrain HAS no definition in the book, because they don't even pretend or attempt to meet those requirements, they're clearly just listing some random examples and leaving it up to you", so either technically difficult terrain doesn't exist or difficult terrain is everything and nothing; either way it has no RAW basis as the definition is non-existent. Hence why I gave the only real options use it for as now, however to claim it for an argument does not matter here.

Movement within is A>B/C/D, B>A/C/D, C>A/B/D, D>A/B/C; movement into is X>A/B/C/D; movement out is A/B/C/D>X. That's how the definition of movement works, within means inside to inside'. If being in A and moving normally to an X to the left would require a acrobatics check, then moving out still constitutes under the effects of half speed. If I am still moving at half speed with that movement, then I cannot 5(10)ft step out of grease. Further more, "through (grease)", which is called out by the spell, refers to when at any point of time during your movement the space or effect in question is present; if I start my movement in grease and move out of grease, I have still moved through grease, and "move at half speed with a DC10 Acrobatics check" disallowing 5ft steps because you can't spend 10ft of movement with a 5ft step.

Serisan wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

grease doesn't say it's difficult terrain; it spells out exactly what happens if you're in those squares

furthermore, it's irrelevant, because you're stepping out of those squares into a non-greasy square (you're not moving within or through the affected squares)

5-foot step is a go

/PDK

I love repeating myself:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
lack of nomenclature does not mean lack of rule.

It means nothing whether or not the call out the rule as to whether or not its in play; to think so is closed minded.

"Moving through" is defined as leaving or passing over a square, not moving into it, by the combat rules. Read the attacks of opportunity section closely. That being said, the magically conjured (meaning actually there and real as real can be for the duration of the spell) suddenly is no longer on your shoe as soon as you step out? I could see the argument for 5ft stepping into a square as there is nothing slippery coating your feet on the first step into the square; the intention of the spell is also not stop you from through from the other side but to keep people that were already in the space from leaving easily: If a wizard put down some grease in front of me, as long as I'm not Fatso the Fighter, I can just take 10 on an acrobatics check and jump right over. If I could just 5ft step out and I can jump over it from outside of the space, the spell is as worthless as metal armor to a druid.

You're attempting to place realism into the ruleset to establish a houserule precedent. The rules are an approximation of reality, not reality itself.

As I posted earlier in this thread and has been reaffirmed several times by other posters, your movement requirements are determined by the square you are entering. That's how the Special Movement Rules section of the Combat chapter covers it in its example graphic. This is why you can 5' step out of the area of grease....

No, I am giving an example for a real life RAI interpretation, which is a not always perfect way to see how mechanics were originally conceived, and then following it up with a mechanics RAI reason. The purpose of grease was clearly not to act as area denial or a superficial movement barrier because its easily subverted in 3d and because otherwise they would have just renamed entangle Sticky Tar and given it to arcane casters instead.

As I am reading more of the responses, its becoming more clear to everyone that the issue is not difficult terrain because difficult terrain is too big of an issue in of itself. However, you still cannot 5ft while "slowed", moving at half movement speed, moving with double cost, etc. because you cannot 2.5ft step.

Grand Lodge

AwesomenessDog wrote:


Slow wrote:
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
Nothing cancels out the half movement speed from slow when taking 5ft steps by what you quoted, so yes it still takes 10ft to do a 5ft step under the slow effect.

Moves at half its normal speed =/= to costs twice as much to move.

If your normal speed is 30', your movement speed, while under the effects of slow is 15'. It does NOT say you have to spend 2x movement while under the effects of slow, it says your movement speed is halved. There is a major difference in those two meanings.

Just as an example, suppose you were fighting a Dragon, which has a fly speed of 100'. Your Wizard manages to case slow on the Dragon, making the SR roll, and the Dragon fails its Save against it. It now flies at 50' per move action, rather than 100'.

Has the spell Slow made the AIR difficult terrain, or just slowed the creature down?


AwesomenessDog wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:

Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different. Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

The spell "slow" also halves your movement speed. Are you of the opinion that the slow spell also prevents taking a 5' step?
Actually, yes; it requires 10ft of movement to move 5ft with slow, since its not a 10ft step (although some larger monsters should be allowed to do 10+ft steps - seriously, a 64+ft tall titan can only shimmy at a speed of 5ft every 6 seconds?), you can't 5ft step with slow, grease, (otherwise) difficult terrain, etc.

Aside from being wrong about the slow spell preventing a 5' step, which I won't address here since kinevon already is, lets see if you are consistent in your rulings - I'll ask one more question.

Would you prevent a character wearing medium or heavy armor from taking a 5' step?

For reference:

PRD wrote:


Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down.

Looking at the charts denotes that this is a 33% reduction in movement speed.


bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:

Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different. Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

The spell "slow" also halves your movement speed. Are you of the opinion that the slow spell also prevents taking a 5' step?
Actually, yes; it requires 10ft of movement to move 5ft with slow, since its not a 10ft step (although some larger monsters should be allowed to do 10+ft steps - seriously, a 64+ft tall titan can only shimmy at a speed of 5ft every 6 seconds?), you can't 5ft step with slow, grease, (otherwise) difficult terrain, etc.

Aside from being wrong about the slow spell preventing a 5' step, which I won't address here since kinevon already is, lets see if you are consistent in your rulings - I'll ask one more question.

Would you prevent a character wearing medium or heavy armor from taking a 5' step?

For reference:

PRD wrote:


Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down.
Looking at the charts denotes that this is a 33% reduction in movement speed.

It actually does not cause a reduction as a percentage, it straight up changes your movement speed, stone plate being the main point that it isn't a straight reduction. That's why they give you a chart instead of saying "in medium+ load, take 2/3s of your normal speed rounded down".

As you expend movement speed to move, being reduced to half speed means every 5ft of movement you spend, you go 5ft, or reworded to go 5ft you must spend 10ft. If it was not an expending basis, you would only be allowed to move in straight lines up to your total speed: wall corner n your way -- sorry, that's a double move? Instead when you spend a move action, you are given (for the sake of argument) 30 "movement tokens" to spend with each token and while under an effect such as slow each token is worth half as much because your speed is slower. (Beyond this, the only difference between effects like slow and terrain costing more is that one is worded to indicate it is an effect on the target and the other so that it is an effect of the terrain. No other mechanical distinction should be made.)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Completely wrong. Slow spell points to the staggered condition, which states:

A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions. A creature with nonlethal damage exactly equal to its current hit points gains the staggered condition.

5-foot step is a go for slowed characters.

5-foot step is a go from a greased square unto a non-greased square.

You guys are reading way too much from that 1st-level spell. It's good, but not debilitatingly good.


kinevon wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:


Slow wrote:
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
Nothing cancels out the half movement speed from slow when taking 5ft steps by what you quoted, so yes it still takes 10ft to do a 5ft step under the slow effect.

Moves at half its normal speed =/= to costs twice as much to move.

If your normal speed is 30', your movement speed, while under the effects of slow is 15'. It does NOT say you have to spend 2x movement while under the effects of slow, it says your movement speed is halved. There is a major difference in those two meanings.

Just as an example, suppose you were fighting a Dragon, which has a fly speed of 100'. Your Wizard manages to case slow on the Dragon, making the SR roll, and the Dragon fails its Save against it. It now flies at 50' per move action, rather than 100'.

Has the spell Slow made the AIR difficult terrain, or just slowed the creature down?

We are ignoring difficult terrain for its lack of anything substantial; that said slow has made each effort of movement by the creature (dragon) half as effective, just as if hypothetical super dense air had slowed the creature down by half speed.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Completely wrong. Slow spell points to the staggered condition, which states:

A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift, and immediate actions. A creature with nonlethal damage exactly equal to its current hit points gains the staggered condition.

5-foot step is a go for slowed characters.

5-foot step is a go from a greased square unto a non-greased square.

You guys are reading way too much from that 1st-level spell. It's good, but not debilitatingly good.

No, its completely useless if 5ft steps are allowed, that is a point already made. 5ft is not blocked by action denial, its blocked by movement penalties not allowing a 5ft step.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Nope. It's far from useless. Your working understanding of the spell seems to be missing the fact that if it's cast on you, you have to save or fall. If it's not cast on you, you make acro checks if you cross it.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Nope. It's far from useless. Your working understanding of the spell seems to be missing the fact that if it's cast on you, you have to save or fall. If it's not cast on you, you make acro checks if you cross it.

Oh no, a jump check or spend an extra 5ft to go around, again how is this not useless compared to forcing those already inside to pass to exit. That is not the intent of the spell, the intent is to stop people from approaching past where the spell is placed, which anyone can do without issue if grease can be 5ft stepped out of (and, apparently as everyone is arguing, inside of to inside of). The spell is useless with your interpretation or a mild nuisance (as 1st level spells are supposed to be) with my interpretation.

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