I'm finding a few details of the events a bit vague, so I think some clarification might be useful
I currently run a homebrew campaign with 6 PCs, one of which is a paladin. The main goal of the campaign is to travel to the center of an area of magical corruption and try to put a stop to it. Nobody knows what causes the corruption, and it is spreading quickly.
In their endless quest to completely ignore the main plotline, they managed to go on a plane-hopping adventure.
Are you saying "in their endless quest..." in a tone of humorousness/lightheartedness or a mood of annoyance?
(I ask because it's hard to read tone on the internet)The paladin stepped up.
The paladin entered the demon's tent, arms crossed and head full of "I'm so g!%$%!n good there's no way this demon can pull one over on me"-ness and asked what the demon wanted.
Did the player say something equivalent to "there's no way this demon can pull one over on me"?
The demon simply said he wanted to show the paladin something, and that all he required was that the paladin place his hands on the same table the demon was. The paladin obliged. The demon showed him a battle that would take place in the future and how to stop it. But that wasn't all he did.Now the paladin sees "Holy" golden light on areas and people of interest, actually caused by the demon, whom the paladin allowed into his mind.
By allowing the demon into his mind, are you referring to when he put his hands on the table? Was it more explicitly stated that he was allowing the demon into his mind?
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My character, Lyric the Singing Paladin, had a situation akin to this recently. We were in a temple with an evil cult, tasked to remove it, when something evil kept pinging on my "paladar" (detect evil checks).
I shouted, "I know you're there. Show yourself or face the consequences."
[evil thing] "Um, you're not going to smite me, are you?"
Me: "That depends. I don't smite every evil thing I meet. What are you doing here?"
It was a quasit that needed help returning to its plane, and wanted to help us because we were going after its enemies, the aforementioned evil cult. It offered to serve as our guide so that we could clear its way to the portal home.
I thought this out.
"You want back to your plane, and I don't want you wreaking havoc here. So here's the deal. You commit evil acts, I smite your ass. You hurt an innocent, I smite your ass. You betray us, I smite your ass." Then I paused. "If you guide us as promised, and only fight against the cult, I'll send you home."
I temporarily allied with an evil creature against a greater evil. Because Shelyn is a redemptive god, I asked if it wanted to change course and start following a path of good. It in turn said, "You're smarter than the other paladins I've met. Have you considered the benefits of falling? You could make a really dashing anti-paladin!"
In the end, we both honored our agreements and I sent the quasit home. I did not fall.
There are circumstances where a paladin can be thoughtful about how it treats evil, parleys with it or even strikes a temporary alliance. Paladins have a variety of codes, and part of the joy of being a paladin lies in striking a balance, and finding a path where one can be true to one's vows in challenging circumstances.
Hmm
Lyric the Singing Antipaladin would be pretty cool, though.
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I would think the paladin(character) would know he was breaking a rule
No way. Paladins are the one fun class, the only class where GMs get to have fun stripping the PC of his class abilities and those Lawful-Stupid paladins with their INT dump-stats don't even know why! It's perfect! Everybody wins (well, just the GM, but he's everybody who matters)!
/sarcasm
Side note: This sarcasm was not addressed at anyone in particular - it's addressed at the design flaw that builds this class with a GM-fiat hair-trigger opportunity to screw with the character. It seems some GMs just can't help it. Some of them probably think it's gritty or tragic or some other kind of fallen-hero-redemption-story. And, it pretty much is, when everyone is into it. But for most paladin players, it's just watching their characters be stripped of their powers for reasons that are often trivial and/or out of the players' control.
the Singing Paladin should have Diss Evil instead of Smite
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Seemes like a dick move to punish the players for doing precisely what you wanted them to do.
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I disagree with practically everyone on this thread. Now, I don't know if I would go so far as to make the paladin fall, but he should certainly be getting some type of spanking for this. Here are the facts.
They are on another plane, and a DEVIL says "Hey want to make a deal". - first this is not some Monty Haul game show host. This is a DEVIL. He is trying to corrupt you. How can you be sure? Like the Geico commercial, he is a DEVIL, it's what they do. Unless you are completely ignorant of the subtype, just going in and talking to this guy when he is "looking to make a deal" is inviting trouble. He didn't say let's have a conversation. He said let's make a deal, so you know you are going to have to pay something and that should stop you right there.
He says "I just want to show you something, put your hand on the table". OK, maybe if your are working with a 4 or 5 Wis, this might seem like a good idea, but when a DEVIL tells you to put your hand on the table so he can show you something, you know this is a BAD idea, and you know he is going to do something to corrupt you. How do you know that for sure? DEVIL. These guys don't do thing to help others out. They corrupt people, it's what they do. By accepting the terms and doing what the devil is asking of you (Even something as simple as putting your hands on something the devil has planted and opening yourself to a vision supplied by said DEVIL), you are giving him something he wants and will use against you. (Again, why, DEVIL, its what they do).
So the conclusion is that you willingly entered into a bargain with a DEVIL, no matter how innocent it appeared. You gave the DEVIL something he wanted in exchange for something you wanted. you should know better, no matter how small it seems, you are associating with a DEVIL and entering into a bargain. How can you be sure it a bargain, if it doesn't look like one? He said "Let's make a deal". Seriously. Anyone who thinks this is a simple conversation is a fool. No matter how much it appears to be a simple conversation. This is what DEVILS do. Maybe pride made you think you could get by what he had to offer, but the min he said do this and you did it, that's it.
If this was just some random guy or a devil in disguise, it would be different. But the Pal knew it was a devil, knew he was looking to make a "deal", accepted the deal. End of story. His god should be going "What the Heck, Bro?"
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The bigger problem is the Lawful Evil Gunslinger that is one of his companions.
Now, I was hoping that one of the neutral characters would be interested, and if all else fails the LE Gunslinger might be game.
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A deal usually has some sort of terms. This didn't. There's no deal because there's nothing being traded by way of agreement. The closest "deal" here is show and tell.
A usually, but this one didn't have written terms. The DEVIL offered information, the price was the paladin put his hand on the table and see a vision (and accept whatever else that does). Very straight forward.
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That's not a deal. And stop putting Devil in all caps. It's either capitalized (as the Type) or in all lower case (as a non-proper noun). It's not an acronym.
That's the equivalent of this:
"Here let me tell you a secret. Just listen to me."
*Listens*
"LOL you accepted my deal!"
That's not a deal, that's a method of communication. Speech, written message, vision, whatever.
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Alternatively:
DEVIL: *Appears* "Hi Mister Paladin buddy friend."
Paladin: "Aaah! A Deranged Evil Vile Intercosmological Lawkeeper!" *Draws sword*
DEVIL: "Wait! As we evil outsiders see everything backwards from paladins, I will take any attacks against me as a confirmation that we are indeed good friends."
Paladin: "DIE!"
GM: *Cackles manically*
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That's not a deal. And stop putting Devil in all caps. It's either capitalized (as the Type) or in all lower case (as a non-proper noun). It's not an acronym.
That's the equivalent of this:
"Here let me tell you a secret. Just listen to me."
*Listens*
"LOL you accepted my deal!"
That's not a deal, that's a method of communication. Speech, written message, vision, whatever.
Silly, Rynjin, YOU forgot that THE PERSON making the deal must be capitalized;)
It would actually be more like
"Here let ME tell you a secret. Just listen to ME."
*Listens*
"LOL you accepted MY deal!"
Because when YOU randomly capitalize WORDS, it makes your ARGUMENT stronger!
I disagree with practically everyone on this thread.
Sometimes, the enemy is the best source of information.
Sometimes, when you're on a perilous quest to face a perilous problem and find yourself in peril on a perilous outer plane, getting information is a very good idea, despite the peril.
Sometimes, a paladin should even know this and should at least try to get more information. Not by making deals, but my questioning and listening for information, clues, and even listening to what the devil doesn't say. Not that everything the devil says should be trusted, far from it, but at least it gives the party a place to start, and they can vet the information from there.
There is nothing wrong and definitely nothing fall-worthy in seeking to get information from one's enemy.
What might be fall-worthy is seeking to befriend or aid or assist such a foul creature. Working with it toward its own ends. Agreeing to deals knowing the outcome will be to the benefit of the evil fiend. Maybe stuff like that is worthy of a fall.
But not gleaning information. That's simply the smart thing to do.
(Me, I'd make him lose his paladin powers not because he betrayed "lawful" bur because he betrayed "stupid" - that is the other half of his Lawful-Stupid alignment, right? And betraying that part of his alignment is fall-worthy too, right?)
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Alternatively:
DEVIL: *Appears* "Hi Mister Paladin buddy friend."
Paladin: "Aaah! A Deranged Evil Vile Intercosmological Lawkeeper!" *Draws sword*
DEVIL: "Wait! As we evil outsiders see everything backwards from paladins, I will take any attacks against me as a confirmation that we are indeed good friends."
Paladin: "DIE!"
GM: *Cackles manically*
OR...
Devil: Hey I'm looking to make a deal, come talk to mePaladin: I don't make deal with devils, talk if you are going to talk.
Devil: Let me show you something, just put your hands on the table..
Paladin: If you have something to show me, show it. I am not falling prey to you wickedness, what do you think my name is? Blake? ;)
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Alternatively:
DEVIL: *Appears* "Hi Mister Paladin buddy friend."
Paladin: "Aaah! A Deranged Evil Vile Intercosmological Lawkeeper!" *Draws sword*
DEVIL: "Wait! As we evil outsiders see everything backwards from paladins, I will take any attacks against me as a confirmation that we are indeed good friends."
Paladin: "DIE!"
GM: *Cackles manically*OR...
Devil: Hey I'm looking to make a deal, come talk to me
Paladin: I don't make deal with devils, talk if you are going to talk.
Devil: Let me show you something, just put your hands on the table..
Paladin: If you have something to show me, show it. I am not falling prey to you wickedness, what do you think my name is? Blake? ;)
Ah, yes. I remember when I refused to place my hands on a table for some fiend. I believe that was the fifth time I fell, rather early on in my career. Since I was in his tent, I was not respecting his legitimate authority nor acting with honor. Thus, like a tablecloth from a fully loaded table, my powers were removed from me.
But in all seriousness, I still don't understand why my god tests me so. But it's OK, I will not falter or fail in my path! Wait. I think I just fell again. Questioned my god.... *sighs and trudges back to church*
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I fell on my way in here.
OR...
Devil: Hey I'm looking to make a deal, come talk to me
Paladin: I don't make deal with devils, talk if you are going to talk.
Devil: Let me show you something, just put your hands on the table..
Paladin: If you have something to show me, show it. I am not falling prey to you wickedness, what do you think my name is? Blake? ;)
THE METHOD OF SHOWING YOU IS PLACING YOUR HANDS ON THE TABLE.
Like again, this is the equivalent of:
"Here, let me tell you a secret."
"I do not parley with your kind! Tell me if you're going to tell me!"
"Okay, just listen-"
"LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING BUT TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY LA LA LA"
That makes ZERO sense.
Just as a note, I did not read any of the prior posts in this tread, only the thread title.
Yes you are being a dick, no the paladin should not fall.
(Unless the paladin lit an orphanage on fire or signed away his free will for wishes to a devil on a contract he was allowed to read prior to his signing and ignored the warning by his Phylactery of Faithfulness that you gave him after the 1st 'boss' encounter at 1st level, or similar unambiguously heinous and not considerable marginally evil act, then yes you can make him fall, but at that point the paladin already made the conscious decision to and wanted to fall)
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Kobold Cleaver's Unpatented 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed So No Refunds Response To Every Paladin Fall Thread Ever:
Q: Did you tell the player that doing this would likely be seriously un-okay with his deity and he did it anyways?
Y: Then, by the rules of your campaign, he will fall.
N: Then he doesn't. Don't play "Gotcha!" with your players. Tell him next time.
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That's a lot of words, seems easy to trip over.
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Can we please get a Rules Question thread about the falling rules or something that involves a paladin? I think we all need that. Maybe something about the 3.5-PF Grease modifications. I ain't picky.
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*peers*
"Okay. Did the demon have any trace of good to him/her/it? Could it be redeemed with hard work and effort? Yes, we do what we can to bring the poor child back into the Light. No? Listen, and then quickly and without remorse smite his/her/its unrepentant and unsalvagable tailfeathers. All this talk of 'plot, story, travels...' Wait, he's traveling with an evil person and he's OKAY with this?" *sigh* "What IS it with kids these days, thinking they're all 'edgy' hanging out with 'kinda evil' friends and all? NO FROZEN TREATS FOR ANYONE!"
Can we please get a Rules Question thread about the falling rules or something that involves a paladin? I think we all need that. Maybe something about the 3.5-PF Grease modifications. I ain't picky.
Ask and ye shall recieve. It's a bit of an old thread, but I wouldn't be opposed to it being necro'd.
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It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. There's a system in this book which will allow such actions (Like "Friendly contact with an evil outsider") to have an incremental impact on the Paladin's alignment without resulting in an immediate fall from grace, etc. This allows the Paladin to risk such contacts, but if he makes a habit of it he's going to find himself on the road to perdition.
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That's not a deal. And stop putting Devil in all caps. It's either capitalized (as the Type) or in all lower case (as a non-proper noun). It's not an acronym.
That's the equivalent of this:
"Here let me tell you a secret. Just listen to me."
*Listens*
"LOL you accepted my deal!"
That's not a deal, that's a method of communication. Speech, written message, vision, whatever.
if Rynjin and I are on the same side of an argument, it's a pretty good sign that the argument made is flawed in some way.
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if Rynjin and I are on the same side of an argument, it's a pretty good sign that the argument made is flawed in some way.
Sorry, I can only see yours. But yes, it is flawed. if a DEVIL, says come in here if you want to make a deal, and then you go in there, unless you failed "temptation by fiends" class then you are on sketchy ground. The fiend has said straight our he wants to deal and "DEVIL" and "deal" should be a warning flag that Paladins should heed. Under no circumstances should he ever do what the DEVIL wants. No matter how innocent it seems. That is how DEVILS work. Any paladin worth his smite should know this.
This is my opinion. I don't think the OP is wrong. I would not make him fall, but he would get a slap on the wrist most definitely. OP wasn't a Dick. He was playing a DEVIL.. This is what they do. Paladins should know better and be better. Anyone who want to get their knickers in a twist because I feel this way, enjoy your wedgie.
This is my opinion.
I feel bad for anyone unfortunate enough to be a Paladin in one of your games.
Sorry, I can only see yours. But yes, it is flawed. if a DEVIL, says come in here if you want to make a deal, and then you go in there, unless you failed "temptation by fiends" class then you are on sketchy ground. The fiend has said straight our he wants to deal and "DEVIL" and "deal" should be a warning flag that Paladins should heed. Under no circumstances should he ever do what the DEVIL wants. No matter how innocent it seems. That is how DEVILS work. Any paladin worth his smite should know this.
This is my opinion. I don't think the OP is wrong. I would not make him fall, but he would get a slap on the wrist most definitely. OP wasn't a Dick. He was playing a DEVIL.. This is what they do. Paladins should know better and be better. Anyone who want to get their knickers in a twist because I feel this way, enjoy your wedgie.
Except that's not what happened. Devil said Look, Paladin looked. Here's how it could have gone, and no one would have known which way it would go until the Paladin looked:
Devil: Hey Paladin look.
Paladin: *Looks and sees an image of an orphanage being ransacked by demons
Devil: I can help you stop this if we can make a deal.
That's a deal. If a salesman says, "Hey look at this" and you look, you are not all of a sudden obligated to buy it. No deal has been made.
So, isn't it at all suspicious that the OP has only posted twice in this thread?
He posted more (mainly to call everyone who disagreed with him a dick), but the posts were deleted. Guess he left after that.
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He posted more (mainly to call everyone who disagreed with him a dick), but the posts were deleted. Guess he left after that.
So basically another case of an "advice" thread where the OP was really only seeking validation?
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Eeeyup.
Paladins can work with devils though against greater evils. Iomadae and Sarenrae both dislike and don't trust Asmodeus, but both have worked with him against greater evils. Just like how clerics of Shaelin works with Zon-Kuthon or at least stays out of each other buisness. Paladins can stray from pure white so long as good is at the forefront of their mind. Playing Wrath of the Righteous now has been a great teacher on this as some of these demons have been better to work worth than fight.
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This is why, if you're going to have 'acts of X' and you're playing with alignment, it's a good idea to have some sort of alignment scale. Sure, you can throw yourself into the deep end of the pool in one go (torturing the children in the orphanage), but even then it's a bunch of acts done specifically because they are evil, and because doing so will give him power, or make him feel good, or meh it's Monday, so why not.
One cannot always pick one's allies - or one's enemies. But again, and as always, engaging with and destroying evil is not automatically a physical event.
I am perfectly willing to allow a paladin to associate in the long term with a nasty, evil, malevolent creature in order to pursue either the destruction of a greater evil or the commission of a greater good; the key to this is engagement, both the limiting of the evil individual's engagement with innocents/noncombatants, and the paladin herself engaging the associate in discussions about, well, improving their moral fiber. The paladin would limit their associate's chances to commit evil acts upon innocents / noncombatants; "If you're going into town, Snidely Whiplash, then I, Dudley DoRight, am going with you to make sure you don't do anything bad!!" The paladin makes sure that the 'evil' perpetrated by the associate has a narrow focus, directed at their opponent combatants.
At the same time, the paladin constantly questions the associate as to why they are dedicated to evil why they do it, what the true results (both short term and long) are, how the person feels the Gods view their actions, that sort of thing. They engage the evil associate in nonphysical battle, because to change Evil to Good (or at least to Neutral) is destroying Evil just as thoroughly as putting a sword through its heart. Even better, because an evil being turned into a good being can then go out and accomplish good in its turn.
At the same time, the paladin is not Lawful Stupid; paladins are big believers in 'trust but verify' and 'a broken contract is broken on both sides;' he is not a superhero, and 'not killing them is what makes us better than them' does not even get a ping on his radar, because of the functional morality of 'by not ending his Evil, I too am accountable for the subsequent evil he has done.' "Just because Snidely Whiplash has done the evil deed he agreed not to do doesn't mean that I should do what I told him I wouldn't" is a metric ton worth of bullsh!t. The paladin will agree to something (willingly surrender herself for three days of torment, meet peaceably before a battle, whatever) in exchange for something (the Red Duke goes free and unmolested for those three days, the opposition swears to a truce during the meeting, etc.). If Snidely Whiplash violates the agreement by attacking the Red Duke before those three days are up, or arranges for an attack during the meeting, Dudley DoRight is going to crack open not just one can of whupass, but the entire sixpack.
Nor is he going to walk into a situation without having an absolute method of knowledge and engagement; he forces the evil priests to swear on their power (which, if they arrange for an attack on the Red Duke, they will lose), he brings his shield and sword in with him and watches for betrayal, all that sort of thing. He is also a great believer in 'fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me,' and though he might agree to a second attempt, will stack the deck heavily in his favor against a betrayal, and would refuse a third attempt entirely - if, that is, the evil individual survived the first or second betrayals.
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Except that's not what happened. Devil said Look, Paladin looked. Here's how it could have gone, and no one would have known which way it would go until the Paladin looked:Devil: Hey Paladin look.
Paladin: *Looks and sees an image of an orphanage being ransacked by demons
Devil: I can help you stop this if we can make a deal.That's a deal. If a salesman says, "Hey look at this" and you look, you are not all of a sudden obligated to buy it. No deal has been made.
Maybe you should reread the OP. Especially this sentence.
During this plane hopping escapade I thought it would be fun to have the party approached by a deal-making demon. He asked if anyone interested in making a deal please enter his tent.
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This is literally the lamest Paladin falls traps, how is it you guys are still milking this!
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Apparently you just have to do exactly the opposite of what a devil does, or else you fall?
DEVIL "Kill me, and become evil!" as the devil is slaughtering children
PALADIN "Never you fowl beast! I rather watch you tear those children apart than ever become evil! You shall not fool me!"
DEVIL "Don't give me all your possessions, or else my backup plan to make you evil shall fail!"
PALADIN "Again you take me for a fool! HERE, TAKE MY MONEY!" proceeds to give the devil everything they have.
Maybe you should reread the OP. Especially this sentence.
During this plane hopping escapade I thought it would be fun to have the party approached by a deal-making demon. He asked if anyone interested in making a deal please enter his tent.
Great...so what? Or in other words, explain the terms of the deal, who did what to get what? Where was payment for services discussed? You missed the most important part of my post:
That's a deal. If a salesman says, "Hey look at this" and you look, you are not all of a sudden obligated to buy it. No deal has been made.
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The DEVIL is in the details I guess:-D
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if Rynjin and I are on the same side of an argument, it's a pretty good sign that the argument made is flawed in some way.Sorry, I can only see yours. But yes, it is flawed. if a DEVIL, says come in here if you want to make a deal, and then you go in there, unless you failed "temptation by fiends" class then you are on sketchy ground. The fiend has said straight our he wants to deal and "DEVIL" and "deal" should be a warning flag that Paladins should heed. Under no circumstances should he ever do what the DEVIL wants. No matter how innocent it seems. That is how DEVILS work. Any paladin worth his smite should know this.
This is my opinion. I don't think the OP is wrong. I would not make him fall, but he would get a slap on the wrist most definitely. OP wasn't a Dick. He was playing a DEVIL.. This is what they do. Paladins should know better and be better. Anyone who want to get their knickers in a twist because I feel this way, enjoy your wedgie.
I'll do what I can to make sure a devil tells you that breathing air and eating food are good ideas.
The DEVIL is in the details I guess:-D
NO. No, IT is nOT.