Am I being a dick / Should the paladin fall?


Advice

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Sorry. A DEVIL.


Maneuvermoose wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
The DEVIL is in the details I guess:-D
NO. No, IT is nOT.

You wanna bet on it.

DEVIL'S always come out ahead.

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber
MyPCsCommitSuicide wrote:
Stuff

I would be really careful how you treat the paladin and the code.

1. Did the paladin do something terrible that had an immediate effect?
2. Did the demon do something overtly evil?

I am not saying the paladin didn't earn a gray mark here but for something like this I think you need more than a one time deal.

Balancing the Party's Fun vs Story and a fine line. Also you WANT your players to trust you with the campaign.

Think on it and see what you come up with or even better make the issue a side story of morality for the paladin.

I will tell you that I wouldn't cause him to fall for that one instance but I would tell the player out of game to keep the Paladin Code in mind and let him take the hints there.

Good Luck.


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Freehold DM wrote:
noretoc wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
if Rynjin and I are on the same side of an argument, it's a pretty good sign that the argument made is flawed in some way.

Sorry, I can only see yours. But yes, it is flawed. if a DEVIL, says come in here if you want to make a deal, and then you go in there, unless you failed "temptation by fiends" class then you are on sketchy ground. The fiend has said straight our he wants to deal and "DEVIL" and "deal" should be a warning flag that Paladins should heed. Under no circumstances should he ever do what the DEVIL wants. No matter how innocent it seems. That is how DEVILS work. Any paladin worth his smite should know this.

This is my opinion. I don't think the OP is wrong. I would not make him fall, but he would get a slap on the wrist most definitely. OP wasn't a Dick. He was playing a DEVIL.. This is what they do. Paladins should know better and be better. Anyone who want to get their knickers in a twist because I feel this way, enjoy your wedgie.
I'll do what I can to make sure a devil tells you that breathing air and eating food are good ideas.

GM: You arrive at the village. There's a huge devil there, slaughtering everybody!

Paladin: I charge into the fray to Smite the foul fiend!
Devil: Not so fast, Sir Paladin. Since speaking is a free action that I can take even on your turn, I'm prepared to make you a deal: I'll stop slaughtering these peasants if you attack me. Deal?
Paladin: I've changed my mind. Guys, you're gonna have to fight this devil without me.
Wizard: Dammit, Sir Didimaus, this is the fifth devil this month who has Monty-Hall'd you right out of combat. I think these fiends have found your true weakness...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

<meanmode>

Hmm... so the devil said, "Come into my tent if you are interested in a deal." The paladin then entered.

Now, this means there are really two possibilities. Either the paladin intends (or is open to) a deal with the devil or not.

If he's open to a deal, he's fraternizing with evil things and is open to falling.

If he's not open to a deal, he's lying by omission when he enters the tent. I have seen people on these boards say that any kind of deception by a paladin is grounds for falling.

An overly legalistic deity might not cause the paladin to fall since he doesn't know what charge to prosecute him for.

</meanmode>


Guys, it's really simpler than that.

Sometimes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if I hate everything he stands for.

In the OP's scenario, the OP said that there was a big problem back home and both the paladin and the devil wanted to solve it. Is it dealing with the devil? At best it's a temporary truce while we work together to solve this one, bigger problem. Then it's back to our personal hatred and mutually-assured destruction again.

Does that cause a fall?

Not a chance. In fact, getting the two evils to fight each other, the devil vs. the problem back home, means they both waste time and resources on each other, greatly improving the odds that the paladin can solve two problems at once.

Here's the simple part:

If the paladin's INTENT is to deal with the devil for his own personal gain or glory, then yeah, that's a problem and let's talk about falling and atonement. But if the paladin's INTENT was to use the devil and the devil's information to stop a terrible very bad thing back home, and then to destroy the devil too, at his earliest convenience, then he's just being clever and playing two enemies against each other. Not even close to a fall.

(and side not: it appears the OP's paladin did not even intend to make a deal in the first place, which is even farther from a fall.)


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We should merge this thread with the Feather Falling at the Last Moment thread.

In which case, everyone but the paladin can use the Feather Fall potion to stop themselves from falling. The paladin, of course, just falls; he's immune to Feather Fall or anything else that prevents him from falling. Including common sense.


Berinor wrote:

<meanmode>

Hmm... so the devil said, "Come into my tent if you are interested in a deal." The paladin then entered.

Now, this means there are really two possibilities. Either the paladin intends (or is open to) a deal with the devil or not.

If he's open to a deal, he's fraternizing with evil things and is open to falling.

If he's not open to a deal, he's lying by omission when he enters the tent. I have seen people on these boards say that any kind of deception by a paladin is grounds for falling.

An overly legalistic deity might not cause the paladin to fall since he doesn't know what charge to prosecute him for.

</meanmode>

Or the Paladin read their Code of Conduct and saw:

Paladin's Code wrote:
. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.

And thought maybe the DeViL could help him defeat a greater evil.


If the OP hadn't decided to phrase "I put my hand on the table" as "making a deal", we wouldn't be having this argument at all. People just reacted to the icky phrasing of "he's making a deal with a DEVIL!"

It's basically like if a paladin's player posted indignant about falling and titled his thread "Paladin falls for exterminating a vile infestation of stunted monsters". Then, in the post, we find out it was a bunch of halflings. When we assumed the paladin had just righteously exterminated a nest of kender.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

DEVIL, Kender, pretty much the same thing.


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As a DM i outline when and where a paladin would fall. I love tempting paladins with emotional debacles to make them fall. But I warn the player and they willingly choose to fall.

The only time a paladin fell at my table was when they with full knowledge knew the actions they would take would cause them fall.

It should never come to a board for decisions. The player should make a willful choice to fall.


There really ought to be a CAPITALIZED monster template so that we can figure out what the heck the stats for a DEVIL are. Get on it, Steven Russell!


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Finlanderboy wrote:

As a DM i outline when and where a paladin would fall. I love tempting paladins with emotional debacles to make them fall. But I warn the player and they willingly choose to fall.

The only time a paladin fell at my table was when they with full knowledge knew the actions they would take would cause them fall.

It should never come to a board for decisions. The player should make a willful choice to fall.

Indeed. As has come up plenty of other times in the threat, Paladin falls should never be used as a "Gotcha!" by the GM.

The only time a Paladin falling should ever some as a surprise to the player is if their moral compass is utterly screwed up. "What do you mean devouring the souls of 100 innocent babies makes my Paladin fall? There's nothing wrong with that!"

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