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In direct response to Serisan's request in this thread I have a rules question that I came up with that would be actually be nice to have a little clarification on. The paladin is fighting on a cliff side with some baddies and our friendly wizard readies an action to cast stone shape if the paladin gets bull rushed off the cliff. The paladin then gets bull rushed.
Since extending the length of the cliff side wouldn't cause him to fall, would the spell negate it's own trigger meaning that it wouldn't be cast? Secondly, stone shape makes a pretty thin layer of rock. Even if the trigger did succeed, would the paladin still fall if the platform wasn't thick enough to logically support his weight?
Dotting for excellent
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This is why wizards should prepare feather fall instead, to avoid all these overly complicated rules about alignment stone shape.
Well, to answer the question seriously: maybe.
A readied action interrupts the trigger, but doesn't prevent the trigger from happening. So what happens is that the wizard gets ready with his stone shape, the paladin gets pushed. Before he falls, the stone shape takes effect, but he's still bull rushed. If the bull rush is enough to carry him over the newly expanded ground, then he falls.
If he does not, he is standing on a precarious 5 foot by 5 foot piece of rock which is at least 8 inches thick (7th level wizard, 17 cubic feet, 5x5 area is 8 and 1/6 inches thick), and thus has approximately 30 hit points, a hardness of 8, and a break DC somewhere between 30 and 50. This is strong enough to support his weight, but almost ridiculously easy to shatter with a weapon and send him tumbling to his doom.
Yes, this is a situation wherein if the paladin doesn't move, he's likely to fall.
I guess as a follow up to that Chemlak, would the Wizard know how far they had to extend the cliff side if the paladin got bull rushed greater than 5 feet? Alternatively, if they extend it say 10-20 feet instead of 5, are the break DCs looking substantially less promising for the Paladin?
Every 5 feet further out will drop the hp in half, but the break DC is ultimately up to the GM. I'd probably drop it by 5 or 10 every extra 5 feet out.
No, the wizard has no way of knowing how far to extend the shape, so he'd have to declare that at the time of casting (ie before the bull rush distance is declared). Note that the bull rushing character is highly likely to stop at the precipice (in the square originally occupied by the paladin), so we can ignore his contribution to the weight.
As a ballpark figure, you could assume that the weight limit of the area is equivalent to the heavy load of a character who will make the break DC by taking 10, but that's firmly house rule territory.
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I've been tricked! I came here expecting a flame war, and now... *looks down sadly at bowl of popcorn*
Hmm, based on calculating break DC from hewn stone, unworked stone and stone doors, the break DC for stone appears to be roughly 25+8 per foot of thickness (27+7.6 per foot of thickness is slightly more accurate but is way less intuitive) so unless the paladin weighs more than 1600 lbs even an inch thick of rock could support his weight assuming that the rock would break in the manner that Chemlak proposed. I can get behind that if say the paladin stepped onto a stone slab that was sitting on the ground, but with nothing to support the stone when he's 20 feet out on the ledge, yeah no. Although I suppose you could use a torque equation to get the increased stress simulated better, but I like cat girls and would rather have as few murdered by wanton physicists as possible.
TheBlackPlague, I'm sorry for tricking you, here's a cookie (::)
Yeah, a lot of break DCs (and strength checks in general) seem very high, but I think most of them also assume the least beneficial circumstance to the character. No leverage, no existing fractures or weaknesses, no stress due to force over time, all of that stuff has to be accounted for by the GM in the form of circumstantial bonuses. Very few characters can take 10 and beat a DC 30 strength check without something else helping out.
So in the case of the ledge, I would probably lower the capacity by 5 levels of strength for each foot out from the joining point, and also count the weight of the stone itself against that weight...that might actually be overcompensating, but you get the idea.
BlackPlague take your popcorn to the linked thread. We can eat it there.
Sigh, I went and killed a cat girl...
Assuming that the paladin weighed 200 lbs with all of their gear (it would likely be closer to 300 for medium sized male paladins if they were in full plate and had all the standard adventuring gear, but female paladins, small races and lighter armor do exist, so an arbitrary lower number was chosen) and that the spell created perfectly uniform in density, shape and integrity rock that had a mass of 165 lbs per cubic foot (an average of granite, sandstone, limestone and shale) then the paladin wouldn't break a 1 inch thick by 5 foot wide platform of said stone until the platform was at least 35 feet long and they were standing at least 35 feet out from the edge of the cliff. So there you have it folks, if the paladin stands at the end of a 35 foot long 1 inch thick by 5 foot wide slab, they'll likely fall.
Mind you, the 7th level Wizard still has nearly 2 and a half cubic feet of rock that they could have added to fortify the structure, so if the paladin falls, it is the wizard's fault. Just like in the thread that this one was born from :)
Ah, whoops, forgot to convert feet to inches for the length of the stone in my calculations. 20 ft at 2 inches of thickness (same assumptions on integrity etc) would be enough to do the paladin in.
The wizard still has stone left over though, so he's still the reason why the paladin falls
I laughed out loud at work...well played, sir!
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What if instead of casting stoneshape to extend the length of the cliff - the wizard cast stoneshape into a narrow shape with which to catch the paladin? For simplicity, I shall refer to this shape as a 'stick'.
If this 'stick' were to somehow catch, so that the paladin were to fall back onto the 'stick', I would speculate that the paladin would not fall, nor could any further bull rush attempts make him fall. Thereby proving that, to make sure that they don't fall, every good paladin needs to have a 'stick' up their ****.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html
A readied action goes immediately before the trigger. There is no situation of "But my action stopped the action that triggered it so I don't get my action." Duh, that's what it's supposed to do.
Even so, the trigger could simply be "If the Paladin gets bull rushed, extend the length of the cliff with Stone Shape."
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Sigh, I went and killed a cat girl...
Assuming that the paladin weighed 200 lbs with all of their gear (it would likely be closer to 300 for medium sized male paladins if they were in full plate and had all the standard adventuring gear, but female paladins, small races and lighter armor do exist, so an arbitrary lower number was chosen) and that the spell created perfectly uniform in density, shape and integrity rock that had a mass of 165 lbs per cubic foot (an average of granite, sandstone, limestone and shale) then the paladin wouldn't break a 1 inch thick by 5 foot wide platform of said stone until the platform was at least 35 feet long and they were standing at least 35 feet out from the edge of the cliff. So there you have it folks, if the paladin stands at the end of a 35 foot long 1 inch thick by 5 foot wide slab, they'll likely fall.
Mind you, the 7th level Wizard still has nearly 2 and a half cubic feet of rock that they could have added to fortify the structure, so if the paladin falls, it is the wizard's fault. Just like in the thread that this one was born from :)
I've seen a flaw in your reasoning. Surely the character doing the bull rush is the paladin's girlfriend disguised as a monster? Even so, I think your conclusion is valid: a wizard did it.
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Just change the trigger to the paladin being pushed. That way the spell can go off before he goes over the edge.
Does the type of stone make a difference? So would the wizard need a diamond pickaxe as a focus component to prevent the paladin's fall if the cliff is made of obsidian?
If we want to keep the Break DC=maximum weight the structure can handle=heavy load limit of medium sized biped who can tie Break DC by taking 10 (which is kind of self fulfilling but if the DC is pre-assigned or can be calculated from a different equation then it's fine) then yes, the type of stone is important since it'd have a different Break DC and therefore could hold more or less weight. If we just want to make Minecraft references, then as long as we don't try to extend the cliff with gravel or sand the Paladin will be fine :)
Why is the wizard using the stone shape to make the ledge extend?
Instead, make a bridge over the Paladin so that the person bull rushing can't get to him. Then cast Hideous Laughter on the Paladin so that he falls anyway.
You're being far too lax on the DM. Clearly they should quit DMing because they are
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Paladins are required by their code and alignment to obey the law of gravity. The paladin should fall just for standing that close to the edge of a cliff. By doing so, he basically consents to falling. Any GM who let's him get away with it is too soft on paladins.
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Does he still fall if he lands on top of a succubus grappling a druid wildshaped into a bear?
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Yes, yes he does, but for a whole different reason ;)
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Paladins are required by their code and alignment to obey the law of gravity. The paladin should fall just for standing that close to the edge of a cliff. By doing so, he basically consents to falling. Any GM who let's him get away with it is too soft on paladins.
Gravity is a theory. Therefore, the paladin is not required to obey it.
Should the paladin manage to disobey gravity, he should report what happened and how to a scientist so that they can come up with a better theory. It is for SCIENCE!
Gods do I love this topic.