The other day while planning out a character I stumbled upon a pretty crazy exploit of the adopted trait that granted access to all 0 level spells at will.
This has peaked my curiosity and I just wanna know what others have done to abuse the adopted trait.
...Huh?
As far as I know, there is no Race Trait that grants a SINGLE Cantrip at-will, much less all of them.
Probably just another person who doesn't understand the difference between race traits and racial traits.
Oh, and I thought this was going to be a thread about all those catfolk barbarians raised by half orcs in the art of having 6 inch tusks.
Edit- and yes, since we are talking about adopted, it is most likely a mistake with race/racial traits. Still not sure what option gives all cantrips.
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Tiefling with soul seer and pass for human + adopted (any geniekin) minor wishcraft it's in inner sea races page 197
Pass for human let's you count as a humanoid (this is important for wording)
Soul seer replaces your racial 1/day darkness spell-like ability for deathwatch at will
Adopted let's you take race traits that aren't yours like balloon headed or the cure to pirate Prate Rob's confusion
Any—Minor Wishcraft: You gained some power of wishcraft from a genie ancestor. You can spend a use of a racial spell-like ability or your elemental assault racial trait for the day to instead use any 0-level spell as a spell-like ability. The spell must be used to produce an effect requested aloud by a humanoid within 30 feet since the end of your last turn.
D20srd is lacking the traits from inner sea races, so you'll need the book or PDF to read it.
Oh, and I thought this was going to be a thread about all those catfolk barbarians raised by half orcs in the art of having 6 inch tusks.
Edit- and yes, since we are talking about adopted, it is most likely a mistake with race/racial traits. Still not sure what option gives all cantrips.
The intent of my OP was to read about anything unexpected with tusk or anything adopted by humans for the bonus to will saves and divination magic, or suicidal bodyguards
Instead I just get people telling me I'm crazy and don't know the rules
Where are you getting minor wishcraft from?
As he said, it is from Inner Sea Races.
I'd personally probably correct the interpretation to say it is intended for (and therefore only works with) things with charges per day, and unless the local venture captain sends me an e-mail stating otherwise, it wouldn't work mainly because it feels like an exploit instead of an intended feature.
Some may disagree.
I'd personally probably correct the interpretation to say it is intended for (and therefore only works with) things with charges per day, and unless the local venture captain sends me an e-mail stating otherwise, it wouldn't work mainly because it feels like an exploit instead of an intended feature.
Some may disagree.
I don't think he is trying to use this in PFS. Don't they prohibit Tieflings and Geniekin?
Tiefling with soul seer and pass for human + adopted (any geniekin) minor wishcraft it's in inner sea races page 197
Pass for human let's you count as a humanoid (this is important for wording)
Soul seer replaces your racial 1/day darkness spell-like ability for deathwatch at will
Adopted let's you take race traits that aren't yours like balloon headed or the cure to pirate Prate Rob's confusion
Any (geniekin)—Minor Wishcraft: You gained some power of
wishcraft from a genie ancestor. You can spend a use of a racial spell-like ability or your elemental assault racial trait for the day to instead use any 0-level spell as a spell-like ability. The spell must be used to produce an effect requested aloud by a humanoid within 30 feet since the end of your last turn.D20srd is lacking the traits from inner sea races, so you'll need the book or PDF to read it.
Pass for Human merely lets you look like one. Your type doesn't change.
Personally, I'm on the fence about how good this is. I don't like giving unlimited access to all cantrips, but the flavour of it is that your ability is entirely under control of someone else. 'Say, Jeeves, I'd like you to acid splash that fellow over there. Good minion. Now I need a prestidigitation effect to clean those entrails off after our kind friend Amaryllis ripped the ogre apart with such vigour. Very good.'
I don't think he is trying to use this in PFS. Don't they prohibit Tieflings and Geniekin?I'd personally probably correct the interpretation to say it is intended for (and therefore only works with) things with charges per day, and unless the local venture captain sends me an e-mail stating otherwise, it wouldn't work mainly because it feels like an exploit instead of an intended feature.
Some may disagree.
No, I'm not trying to use this in PFS.
It was honestly an accident that I stumbled onto this. I found the trait and really wanted to use it for a blood kineticist, but I thought all the genie people sucked.
I was just going to ask my GM of he'd hand wave a Tiefling sub-race descended from evil genies when I remembered the adopted trait and from there it fell together.
I don't think he is trying to use this in PFS. Don't they prohibit Tieflings and Geniekin?I'd personally probably correct the interpretation to say it is intended for (and therefore only works with) things with charges per day, and unless the local venture captain sends me an e-mail stating otherwise, it wouldn't work mainly because it feels like an exploit instead of an intended feature.
Some may disagree.
Actually they don't, but you have to have a special boon for make either one (unless you did some shenanigans last year when they stopped making tieflings a viable option without a boon).
And to try limit the amount of exploits from this trait, they require one to have the racial boon for the adoptive race before use. So he could potentially use this for PFS, it just would require two boons.Also could one use this for and elf (with envoy) or a gnome? The ability only limits it to the humanoid type and they have a racial magic ability as well. Does one have to be limited to a Tiefling in otherwords?
Pass for Human merely lets you look like one. Your type doesn't change.Tiefling with soul seer and pass for human + adopted (any geniekin) minor wishcraft it's in inner sea races page 197
Pass for human let's you count as a humanoid (this is important for wording)
Soul seer replaces your racial 1/day darkness spell-like ability for deathwatch at will
Adopted let's you take race traits that aren't yours like balloon headed or the cure to pirate Prate Rob's confusion
Any (geniekin)—Minor Wishcraft: You gained some power of
wishcraft from a genie ancestor. You can spend a use of a racial spell-like ability or your elemental assault racial trait for the day to instead use any 0-level spell as a spell-like ability. The spell must be used to produce an effect requested aloud by a humanoid within 30 feet since the end of your last turn.D20srd is lacking the traits from inner sea races, so you'll need the book or PDF to read it.
Incorrect.
Tieflings—Pass for Human:
Discrimination against tieflings with horrifically fiendish features is so intense that even tieflings look up to those precious few of their kind who can pass as human. These tieflings have otherworldly features that are so subtle, they aren’t often noticed unless the tiefling points them out (for example, eyes that flash red in the throes of passion, or fingernails that are naturally hard and pointed). Such a tiefling doesn’t need to succeed at a Disguise check to appear to be human and count as humanoid (human) as well as outsider (native) for all purposes (such as humanoid-affecting spells like charm person or enlarge person). The tiefling does not automatically gain his associated outsider language (but may select it as a bonus language if his Intelligence score is high enough), and he may not select other racial traits that would grant him obviously fiendish features (such as the fiendish sprinter, maw or claw, prehensile tail, scaled skin, or vestigial wings alternate racial traits listed in the Advanced Race Guide). This ability alters the tiefling’s type, subtype, and languages.
So the type does change.
Personally, I'm on the fence about how good this is. I don't like giving unlimited access to all cantrips, but the flavour of it is that your ability is entirely under control of someone else. 'Say, Jeeves, I'd like you to acid splash that fellow over there. Good minion. Now I need a prestidigitation effect to clean those entrails off after our kind friend Amaryllis ripped the ogre apart with such vigour. Very good.'
I'm pretty sure that he thinks he can make the "wishes" himself. That's why he used Pass for Human to qualify as a Humanoid. He is now a humanoid who is always within 30' of himself.
I don't think he is trying to use this in PFS. Don't they prohibit Tieflings and Geniekin?I'd personally probably correct the interpretation to say it is intended for (and therefore only works with) things with charges per day, and unless the local venture captain sends me an e-mail stating otherwise, it wouldn't work mainly because it feels like an exploit instead of an intended feature.
Some may disagree.
Actually they don't, but you have to have a special boon for make either one (unless you did some shenanigans last year when the stopped making tieflings a viable option without a boon).
And to try limit the amount of exploits from this trait, they require one to have the racial boon for the adoptive race before use. So he could potentially use this for PFS, it just would be a waste of a two books.
I see.
Pass for Human merely lets you look like one. Your type doesn't change.
Personally, I'm on the fence about how good this is. I don't like giving unlimited access to all cantrips, but the flavour of it is that your ability is entirely under control of someone else. 'Say, Jeeves, I'd like you to acid splash that fellow over there. Good minion. Now I need a prestidigitation effect to clean those entrails off after our kind friend Amaryllis ripped the ogre apart with such vigour. Very good.'
While I'll admit, I was premature with the race/racial thing (but come on- one of the most common mistakes on the boards), I know for a fact that this is a confusion (on VERY good grounds...since it is a brawler/brawler situation).
The new book basically gave tieflings a version of the human scion thing that aasimar have. Only it restricts have half of your race trait options (no scales, claws, or tails). So...yeah, aasimar get better versions of things, what else is new?
Anyway, yeah, they decided to use the same name as a feat that is purely cosmetic/disguise based (for half elves, half orcs, and haflings with the right feat). This version for tieflings does give humanoid(human) typing. Yes, it is VERY confusing.
So yes, this combo does seem to give infinite cantrips. It also probably works with racial heritage (geniekin). there are reasons why I hate adopted and racial heritage, and this combo kinda shows that off. These were never meant to be combined. This takes a 'meh' option, and makes it infinite.
And honestly,I don't blame the designers since worrying about genie raised tieflings getting infintie cantrips is not something they should have necessarily antcipated. I don't blame the trait- I blame adopted and racial heritage. I rarely, if ever, see them used for anything other than stuff like this.
Yeah, using the same name on a racial trait and a feat was probably not a good idea -- I was thinking of the feat when I said it only modified your looks.
Personally, as a GM, I'd still force it to be a different humanoid. Or scrap the system abuse entirely. I'm right now imagining the fun on determining WHICH humanoid's order counts, too. 'Most recent' could be fun, for one. Especially if someone readies an action to shout 'Acid Spray up your nose!'
If I were adjudicating this is say that since the ability calls for you to 'expend a use' and at-will powers don't come with any 'uses' to expend (i.e. uses per day) that it wouldn't work. Pretty creative theory-crafting though.
There is no "costs must be meaningful" general rule in PF. On the contrary, abilities that require you to pay the cost and not somehow negate it or be immune to it specifically spell this out as an exception.
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You know, I'd allow it as a GM. And then have it be known far and wide that there's a PC that can grant minor wishes and have EVERY NPC (including opponents in battle) demand such cantrips to be cast the way THEY wished.
Muahahaha.
Actually playing such a beleaguered, wish-granting character would be really entertaining from an RP standpoint.
Any—Minor Wishcraft: You gained some power of wishcraft from a genie ancestor. You can spend a use of a racial spell-like ability or your elemental assault racial trait for the day to instead use any 0-level spell as a spell-like ability. The spell must be used to produce an effect requested aloud by a humanoid within 30 feet since the end of your last turn.
If that is the wording, it doesn't give you infinite uses if you don't have an at will spell like ability as you expend a use of your spell-like to use any 0-level spell (singular event). One casting of any 0-level a day is hardly broken.
1/day darkness =/= infinite cantrips.
At-will darkness = infinite cantrips.
Of course, now it will be a rules forum argument for some 5000 posts on reading comprehension... sorry if I just brought that on...
^_^
Ah, that helps, missed that tidbit, my apologies. In that case I would simply use the same limitation that is on wishes for the wishcrafter. Each humanoid (the character as well) can only make 1 wish a day, problem solved. Still provides a very useful ability, but limits its application.
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High-five for the OP!
Character concepts:
- Old Wizard who has made it his life's work to break the four-or-five cantrip limit for prepared casters, and is unduly proud of his semi-unlimited cosmic power.
- The genie of passive-aggressive underperformance. Keeps a bag of copper pieces, and gives people two of them when they wish for wealth or riches. If they wish for gold, he prestidigitates them gold-colored like cheap gold glitter glue.
- An earnest but really weak genie. Has levels in Fighter, so no other magical abilities. Probably really proud of Create Water, since that's useful on occasion.
- Somebody got a little greedy with their wishes, wishing for the genie's power. Now, whenever they or somebody else nearby says they want something, the world's least impressive magic gets right on that. "I need a drink" results in a few gallons of water appearing. "I wish it were brighter in here" might cast light, or it might set something small on fire. Any attempt to wish for something big results in a crummy prestidigitated miniature of it.
Basically you sacrifice
a) a level 2 SLA (Soul seer)
b) fiendish sorcery (Soul seer)
c) the option to gain several other tiefling traits (Pass for human, which also has some other consequences)
d) a trait (Adopted)
for unlimited cantrips per day. The usual deal would be 'sacrifice a feat, get specific cantrip 3/day', at least Arcane Talent and Psychic Adept are designed that way. Unchained rogue gets a slightly better deal, a specific cantrip at will.
Depending on how you value a) to d), it's an excellent to bad deal. I wouldn't call it game breaking, especially given that any (?) 9th / 6th level caster has access to unlimited cantrips / orisons / knacks per day - at the expense of 1 class level. Ok, you only can use 3 or 4 different level 0 spells (at least per day), but if you really want more, you can always spend another level on another class or a feat on 'Extra Cantrips or Orisons'.
So it's a nice find, nothing to worry about.
The OP took the Soul Seer alternate racial trait, which replaces their 1/day darkness with an at-will deathwatch.
It eats some other stuff too... but if you pick the 'pass for human trait' it is pretty much the only other alternate racial trait you can grab since most of the good alternate traits are 'forbidden'.
If fact, it is the only way to get rid of fiendish sorcery since you can't grab the tail.
This is just a clever use of mechanics, nothing more. It's not broken at all.
Also makes for fantastic NPC material/inspiration.
If I were adjudicating this is say that since the ability calls for you to 'expend a use' and at-will powers don't come with any 'uses' to expend (i.e. uses per day) that it wouldn't work. Pretty creative theory-crafting though.
I would agree with this. But, any of the core races can get Fey Magic. Then, you can have your 1st level spell be Recharge Innate Magic. It only works to reload in your favored terrain, but hey it works.
Honestly, I haven't see the trait Minor Wishcraft yet, but as quoted it would be extremely powerful irregardless of adopted or if you yourself have the humanoid type. It should be easy enough to have a buddy with that type. Heck, Suli get Extra Elemental Assault and all the geniekin have Mostly Human anyways. I suppose the designers just looked at the geniekin and saw each one only gets one Spell-like Ability, but that seriously hampers future design. Would it really have been so hard to add the words, "Up to-" or "Once per day"?
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You need to have someone request an effect that said Cantrip could produce.
Read:
Minor Wishcraft: You gained some power of wishcraft from a genie ancestor. You can spend a use of a racial spell-like ability or your elemental assault racial trait for the day to instead use any 0-level spell as a spell-like ability. The spell must be used to produce an effect requested aloud by a humanoid within 30 feet since the end of your last turn.
So, the best you can do, is constantly ask your allies to ask you for something.
You need to have someone request an effect that said Cantrip could produce.
Read:
Minor Wishcraft: You gained some power of wishcraft from a genie ancestor. You can spend a use of a racial spell-like ability or your elemental assault racial trait for the day to instead use any 0-level spell as a spell-like ability. The spell must be used to produce an effect requested aloud by a humanoid within 30 feet since the end of your last turn.So, the best you can do, is constantly ask your allies to ask you for something.
If you are a humanoid, you are a humanoid within 30ft. If you take the Pass For Human alternate racial trait, you are a humanoid.
If you are a humanoid, you are a humanoid within 30ft. If you take the Pass For Human alternate racial trait, you are a humanoid.You need to have someone request an effect that said Cantrip could produce.
Read:
Minor Wishcraft: You gained some power of wishcraft from a genie ancestor. You can spend a use of a racial spell-like ability or your elemental assault racial trait for the day to instead use any 0-level spell as a spell-like ability. The spell must be used to produce an effect requested aloud by a humanoid within 30 feet since the end of your last turn.So, the best you can do, is constantly ask your allies to ask you for something.
People were banking on that?
Cause it is fairly obvious where this is going to fall if it ever gets faq- genies have to grant the wishes of other people. It is one of the main constraints on them. It is one of the defining character traits of Efreets- they have to bully lesser races into making the wishes for them
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I don't know why so many people is saying they wouldn't allow it.
It's not going to break anything. They are cantrips, you know. They suck. The party could have accesss to all of them, if they wanted, by just making different classes. It's fun, and clever, and has actually cool flavor.
I'd not only let him to do it, I'd try to make the ability to be useful in game. Like NPCs asking minor wishes to him, that he could give them with prestigiditation and stuff like that.
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I don't find it breaking.
Some people find 5ft Steps Broken, or additional attacks when your BAB hit +6 or higher.
It doesn't matter what it is, someone is going to drop a steaming mess of overreaction in their panties at just about anything.
Especially if it's new.
If you are a humanoid, you are a humanoid within 30ft. If you take the Pass For Human alternate racial trait, you are a humanoid.You need to have someone request an effect that said Cantrip could produce.
Read:
Minor Wishcraft: You gained some power of wishcraft from a genie ancestor. You can spend a use of a racial spell-like ability or your elemental assault racial trait for the day to instead use any 0-level spell as a spell-like ability. The spell must be used to produce an effect requested aloud by a humanoid within 30 feet since the end of your last turn.So, the best you can do, is constantly ask your allies to ask you for something.People were banking on that?
Cause it is fairly obvious where this is going to fall if it ever gets faq- genies have to grant the wishes of other people. It is one of the main constraints on them. It is one of the defining character traits of Efreets- they have to bully lesser races into making the wishes for them
Eeeeeh, you are only half (Or less) genie. Clearly your human half is asking your genie half. :p
People were banking on that?
Cause it is fairly obvious where this is going to fall if it ever gets faq- genies have to grant the wishes of other people. It is one of the main constraints on them. It is one of the defining character traits of Efreets- they have to bully lesser races into making the wishes for them
Oh, certainly I get that it's odd if you're keeping all the original fluff. But maybe it's a curse where anything you wish for comes true (within the severe limits of cantrips), or perhaps it's the blessing of Nethys, allowing you to speak your will into being. It's pretty minor, so I doubt the loophole merits getting closed.
So, you request aloud, what you want yourself to do?
Then, wait next turn to do it?
Free action to make the wish, standard to act on it. "Since the end of your last turn" allows that.
Overall it is a very minor effect.
It costs you some race-based options, and a trait, to get some very minor effects. That are already present in 90% of all groups who have a divine and an arcane caster.
Nice fluff. Absolutly not problematic from a gamebalance viewpoint.
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"I wish I could read this weird magic scroll."
*Poof*
"Wow! Thanks me!"
Well, some ban all classes from casting any Cantrip at will.
Seriously.
That's bizarre.
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That's bizarre.Well, some ban all classes from casting any Cantrip at will.
Seriously.
Find some here.