A fix for fighters


Homebrew and House Rules


After thinking about the too narrow focus of fighters and talking with some other GMs I came up with this. What do you guys think?

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier

Diverse it Gets (1 to 5): You are educated, and in studying you have learned that man is mortal. While you don't laugh in the face of certain doom, you might know how to avoid or escape the situation. Select one of the following each time you get a rank in this:
* Pick 2 non-class skills. They are now class skills, and you can retrain any number of ranks into them, at no cost.
* Gain Skill Focus in a class skill in which you have at least 1 rank.
* Gain Signature Skill with a skill that you already have Skill Focus with.
This replaces Bravery 1-5

Additionally, we tried modifying a crappy feat tree to make them worth taking;
Vital Strike: Usable with Charge actions
Improved Vital Strike: Also add specialization and weapon training damage (+6 at level 11)
Greater Vital Strike: Add double specialization and weapon training damage (+14 at level 16)

We've been using the modified vital strike in our last campaign, up to level 12 now, at it seems to help the fighter do decent damage the first round, about like 1.5 to 2 normal hits. The fighter doesn't need any help doing tons of damage on a full attack.
With the extra skills and "free" focus's, the fighter can be decent at some non-combat stuff, even if they don't really have ideal attributes for it.


It works but I think As Diverse as it Gets is too Rogue-like. If anything, I'd probably give Fighters abilities to interact with weapons, armor and fighting styles.


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I like your fix.

Still, it doesn't solve all the problems. The basic premise of Fighter is broken compared to the wizard. While I could list a bunch of things, the biggest one is that Fighter is designed to do damage, while the Wizard is designed to do everything. The Wizard's spells can cover their weaknesses, while all the Fighter can do is more damage.

Any chance you could get a save booster in there?


I'd love to see them do some fighting styles, like monk's and barbarian's totem trees.

I wouldn't mind if they threw a bone to rangers too.


I'm definitely in favor of giving fighters 4 + Int in skill ranks.
I would consider expanding the skill list and utility of bravery instead of your suggested feature though.

Or at the very least, I would add the suggested feature atop of Bravery, since it's sometime important for archetypes.


For flavour, I'd hold back a little on the 'As Diverse as It Gets' one. While it's good to give the Fighter a little brainpower, the main thrust of the class is ... um ... well.

Would reclassing Iron Will et al as combat feats help some? Most saves come up when some jerk spellcaster wants to dominate you or something.


I'm of the opinion that the fighter needs a strong will save.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that every non-caster except barbarian needs a strong will save and the arcane casters don't.


Atarlost wrote:

I'm of the opinion that the fighter needs a strong will save.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that every non-caster except barbarian needs a strong will save and the arcane casters don't.

There's one other issue that needs to be kept in mind ... we can't build The Ultimate Invincible Class here. As nice as it is to make sure fighters get nice things, let's watch the balance thing.


The ability name, Diverse it Gets, is just a joke, although the effect isn't. But it's hard to make a fighter better without adding elements that some other class doesn't already get. It seems like even trying to tilt them in another direction is kind of a violation of their nature.

I'm just trying to improve them (and the overall fun of playing one) with the lightest touch possible.

What do people think about giving them some kind of grit system?
I agree, they do need some better saves, just not sure the best way to gracefully improve it. Spend grit for a re-roll?


4 skill points is fine, but your fix doesn't fit the fighter thematically.


Fighter fixes:
• Gain proficiency with ALL non-racial exotic weapons @ 1st level
• Gain bonuses to CMB/CMD as creatures of bigger sizes.
• Use combat maneuvers as a swift action without penalty or repercussions if the attack fails, even without having the specific feat.
• Swap bonus Combat Feats as a Full-Round action plus ignore Ability score requirements for such feats.
• Can move AND make all attacks so long as you can make one attack
• 2 good saves
• 4 + Skills
• Inherent Spell Resistance that increases with level.

That's a start...


Most of those goodies proposed above are great, plus...

• Some class feature(s) that reliably helps with exploring places and interacting with other sentience.
• Lessen the current -5 iterative attack penalty, if not completely botched, somehow...
• A self succifiency class feature that kicks in when fighting monsters without magic items (somewhat like monks' Ki Pool(magic) stuff, except not magical), better late than never.
• If moving up to full speed during full attack doesn't seem right (which I personally think NOT), at least do something like increasing the distance of the "5-foot step" by another 5 ft. or else...


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Qaianna wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

I'm of the opinion that the fighter needs a strong will save.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that every non-caster except barbarian needs a strong will save and the arcane casters don't.

There's one other issue that needs to be kept in mind ... we can't build The Ultimate Invincible Class here. As nice as it is to make sure fighters get nice things, let's watch the balance thing.

If good fort and will saves make a class invincible clerics, druids, inquisitors, maguses, and paladins need to be nerfed.

Inquisitors and Paladins are generally considered near the ideal balance point.


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The only way to fix fighters is to give them abilities that are equivalent in power to 4th level spells at 7th/8th level, 5th level spells at 9th/10th level, 6th level spells at 11th/12th level, and so on.

Almost all of the fixes suggested are decent at lower levels, but lose relevance after 6th level or so.


This should just be given to fighterss...

I mean, they are THE fighting guys. I wpuld think Equipment Trick and Improvised Weapon would come standard on them to kinda drivw home the "this guy is a deadly killer" thing...


Oh amd free equipment tricks every 2-3 levels would help make the fighter "more skillful" in a wa that makes sense and isnt just "gove him 6+int skills"


This is my fix for fighters

Our group play tested it and thought it worked well.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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To do a real fighter fix, you need defense and movement options, as well as a skill bonuses.

Fixing Vital Strike falls under feat fixes, which is a whole nuther topic.

Here's what I did with Bravery:

Changed Name to Resolve, it subsumes a bunch of abilities that progress at +1 to +5.

The +1 to Fear saves stays as base Bravery. But if you take Iron Will, the bonus stacks onto Iron Will, resulting in a Good Will save, + more against Fear.
Skilled - He gains another skill point and class skill of choice every time his Resolve goes up, to reflect his further training based on his current needs (i.e. wherever his career has taken him). He will eventually end up with more skill points then a ranger, with a customized skill list.
Proficient - he adds a new weapon to his primary weapon group, whatever that group is. He does need to be proficient in it first. (means his best Weapon Training bonus applies to all weapons he actually uses)
Inspired - Similar to Martial Mastery, a number of Times a day equal to his resolve, he gains basic combat feats also equal to his REsolve (i.e 1-5 combat feats, 1-5 times a day). Unlike martial mastery, these feats remain behind until he is INspired again,and swaps them out. (this is his martial flexibility in action).
Versatile - He can use INspired for free during his morning exercise routines once to set a default array of feats for the day, instead of having to wait for combat. (i.e. if he wants to prep for Mounted Combat at the start of the day, he can do so...or archery, or unarmed combat for socializing, or whatever).
Vigorous: he can convert lethal damage to non-lethal damage = level +Fort Save a number of times/day = Resolve. (this gives him a minor, slower healing ability that can still keep him alive).

So, Bravery becomes the class feature that implies mental fortitude, determination, willpower, skill, discipline, and drive.

Movement, Reflex and AC options scale off armor training.

Crafting and combat options tend to scale off weapon training.

I basically treated feat acquisition like spellcasting acquisition, and gave him a combat feat every level, and a training feat every level. He also got an actual class feature every level.

Training feats were things like skill focus, iron will, Fleet and suchlike, so he could actually get Utility feats from the general list.

And THEN I did a feat boost, meaning that feats he takes with his class abilities become techniques, much stronger then base feats, more akin to Rage Powers.

Wound up with a solidly rounded out fighter with OPTIONS, and not just a damage machine.

==Aelryinth


Rhedyn wrote:

This is my fix for fighters

Our group play tested it and thought it worked well.

I suspect the 8 hour respec to combat feats and stances isn't necessary. Stances give enough versatility and being able to completely retrain everything in 8 hours will tend to make all fighters alike. I'm not a great fan of spell preparation, but at least it's magic. Feat preparation doesn't have that excuse and with stances this fighter can get as many feats as a sorcerer knows spells mid game, which should be enough.

I don't like conditioning. Immunities are very all or nothing and charm/compulsion are going to become mandatory with a weak will save. That leads to the issue that compulsion immunity can be a double edged sword: a number of morale buff spells are compulsions. I'd toss conditioning for a better will progression. It's a simpler and more tested solution.


I've been working on a full rewrite, but I haven't posted it to the boards yet because I'm not entirely ready. I tried to shore up the fighter's defenses without gimping their ability to do damage while at the same time giving them some skill utility.

Weapon training starts at level 1, now, and increases at 5 and every 5 levels thereafter. (Translation: Now you can take a 1 level dip for something other than a combat feat!)

Bravery has been replaced with dauntless, which begins as a +2 against mind affecting effects and increases by +1 at the same rate as bravery. Eventually this gets capped by the "indomitable" ability, which allows the fighter to roll twice and take the higher result on all mind-affecting effects.

Armor training now increases max dex, decreases the penalty, and provides a higher armor bonus to your AC.

At 9th level I gave him the inquisitor's stalwart ability, and then at 13th I gave him a +4 to saves against death effects, negative energy, and energy drain, though I'm not sure what I'm calling that yet.

And then to increase his skill utility I beefed his skill points per level up to 6+int (Let's face it, you're still going to dump int), and I gave him the abilities "Soldiering life", "Second nature", and "Tactics".

Cumulatively, these allow the fighter to select skills that he can use his profession (soldier) modifier in place of (which he receives a bonus on equal to 1/2 his fighter level), and he can also assume an automatic twenty so many times per day, much like the bard's lore master ability.

It seems to be working out well so far, but I've yet to test it in high level play.


Atarlost wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

This is my fix for fighters

Our group play tested it and thought it worked well.

I suspect the 8 hour respec to combat feats and stances isn't necessary. Stances give enough versatility and being able to completely retrain everything in 8 hours will tend to make all fighters alike. I'm not a great fan of spell preparation, but at least it's magic. Feat preparation doesn't have that excuse and with stances this fighter can get as many feats as a sorcerer knows spells mid game, which should be enough.

I don't like conditioning. Immunities are very all or nothing and charm/compulsion are going to become mandatory with a weak will save. That leads to the issue that compulsion immunity can be a double edged sword: a number of morale buff spells are compulsions. I'd toss conditioning for a better will progression. It's a simpler and more tested solution.

I consider fighters martial masters. There is a limit to how many feats they can bare at once and stances are not so fluid as to change easily mid-combat. You call it magic, I call it martial arts.

Higher will saves is the tried and true method. It's also boring. Another problem is that it is just not good enough until you get barbarian like bonuses to all saves.

Finally, our group tried this out and it worked for us. I'm not looking for suggestions. I throw this in threads where people are having problems with the fighter.


With the addition of Psychic magic's Emotion component, Bravery should have a way to affect others, either as an aura like a Paladin's Aura of Courage, or by selecting/changing multiple targets (e.g. it affects yourself and 2 allies) with a move or swift action. It'd give them a way to directly support their allies slightly more.


Snallygaster, I like your solution, other than the 6 + int skills/level. The other classes that get that many pay for it in the DPR repartment.

I like those Equipment Tricks too.

Thanks for the suggesstions.


WhiteMagus2000 wrote:

Snallygaster, I like your solution, other than the 6 + int skills/level. The other classes that get that many pay for it in the DPR repartment.

I like those Equipment Tricks too.

Thanks for the suggesstions.

I do have a rationale for that, and I struggled with it for a good while to determine if it was what I wanted to do.

Dumping INT is such a common thing for the fighter in a point buy (barring goofy builds that require combat expertise) that I figured with 4+int the average fighter was still only going to have 2 or 3 skill points per level.

Furthermore, I expanded the fighter's skill list to include a couple of knowledges, as well as acrobatics and stealth (things he might actually be able to do given my buff to armor training). I figured the fighter should be a more measured barbarian; someone who has been trained, a soldier, you know?

Lastly, (and I don't wanna get into complaining about caster martial disparity here) I think I could have just said "At 17th level all of the fighter's skills are considered to be arbitrarily high" and gotten away with it without causing too much of a power imbalance.

I'm also working on expanding the utility of skills, but that's a project with a much longer term.

Edit: Also thank you!


I've been playing around with redesigning the classes as well.
dividing all the classes into 3 groups: martial, caster, and "hybrid"
(placeholder name, the last group is more diverse than the two other - it's pretty much all classes that have d8 hit dice, 3/4 BAB and all except the rogue and monk have 6th lvl casting)

SInce we're talking about the fighter I'l describe my work in progress for the martials:

All martials (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Gunslinger, Samurai/Cavalier, Bloodrager, Brawler, Slayer, and Swashbuckler) get:

4+int skill points per levels
class skills are: climb, craft, handle animal, intimidate, perception, profession, ride, sense motive, survival, and swim.

in addition each class has 4 more class skills:
Barbarian: acrobatics, bluff, knowledge nature, stealth
Fighter: acrobatics, bluff, knowledge engineering, stealth
Paladin: diplomacy, heal, knowledge religion, spellcraft
Ranger: heal, knowledge geography, knowledge nature, stealth

Gunslinger: acrobatics, bluff, knowledge engineering, knowledge local
Samurai/cavalier: bluff, diplomacy, knowledge history, knowledge nobility

Bloodrager: acrobatics, bluff, knowledge arcana, spellcraft
Brawler: acrobatics, escape artist, knowledge local, stealth
Slayer: acrobatics, knowledge geography, knowledge local, stealth
Swashbuckler: acrobatics, bluff, diplomacy, knowledge nobility

(if anybody is wondering how I picked those specific skills: I looked through the class skill lists and saw that some martials had barely 10 class kills, while others had up till 18. I then gave everyone the skills that were most common on all the list and cut away from the lists that had too much. for example all martals except the paladin have climb as a class skill, and the slayer have 18 class skills while the most common number for the others is 10)

the end result is that all martials have 14 class skills and 4 skill points per level.

looking at my list I'm wondering if it wouldn't have been easier to just say "pick 4 from the following list: ..."

I'm also considering wheter to change their saves but I think they are fine as they are - I _might_ adjust so that all martials get a high fort save (they practically do already, there is 2 or 3 classes tops that don't have it)

if anybody is wondering, all the casters (ANY class with 9th lvl casting) have been overhauled to have:
2+int skill points,
a smaller list of class skills than martials (haven't gone though it yet)
d6 hit dice,
1/2 BAB,
and last but not least: all casters are prone to spell failure from armor and none start with any armor proficiency.

the "hybrid" list will be a middleway between the two extremes, more hit points and BAB than casters, can cast in armor, more skills than martials. -but that group is the least uniform one, and I haven't sat down to go through the numbers and balance them. after looking through them maybe I'll have to go back and adjust this list, but I'll see how it goes.

I know it's extreme, and YMMW, but for me I think making martial more competent skill-wise than casters is a good balance. As said; it's a work in progress.

Tl;dr: fighters get 4+int skill points per levels
class skills are: acrobatics, bluff, climb, craft, handle animal, intimidate, knowledge engineering, perception, profession, ride, sense motive, survival, swim, and stealth.

now your fighter can DO THINGS when he isn't in combat.

this is all, of course, based on the assumption that skills matter (in my games they do)


Hmm, if you want versatility, why not use the already existing options? Traits can add class skills and Skill Focus / Signature Skill is relatively easy to afford thanks to fighter bonus feats. If you want more skill ranks, go for Intelligence 13 or 14 - doesn't cost that much at the beginning. Human and Half-elf also add to versatility.

If you put all ressources (ability scores, traits, feats, items etc.) into direct combat prowess, you end up with something that can only do combat, of course. This is also true for a wizard who only collects damage spells, boosts his DCs and spell penetration.

But if you divert a minority of ressources for noncombat usage / indirect combat boosts (e.g. better Knowledge checks), you suddenly have an interesting character. Who is still solid in combat...


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SheepishEidolon wrote:

Hmm, if you want versatility, why not use the already existing options? Traits can add class skills and Skill Focus / Signature Skill is relatively easy to afford thanks to fighter bonus feats. If you want more skill ranks, go for Intelligence 13 or 14 - doesn't cost that much at the beginning. Human and Half-elf also add to versatility.

If you put all ressources (ability scores, traits, feats, items etc.) into direct combat prowess, you end up with something that can only do combat, of course. This is also true for a wizard who only collects damage spells, boosts his DCs and spell penetration.

But if you divert a minority of ressources for noncombat usage / indirect combat boosts (e.g. better Knowledge checks), you suddenly have an interesting character. Who is still solid in combat...

The difference is that:

1) a utility caster and a DDamage caster are still.both using the same casting stat so no need to skimp

2)A blaster can still grab utility spells and not sacrifice a single thing... divine casters all spells for free!

3) a 13 int will gwt you a total of 3 skills... ohhhhh so much!!!

4) martials NEED to Dump most of their feats into tthings for combat because fea trees are ridiculous. .. also, feats scale piss poorly vs spells...


Why not simply add "muscle memory"? give the fighter additional skills per level based on their Str, Con(I can't think of anything that uses con atm... so Idk about this one), or Dex(chosen at character creation) modifier per level, applicable only to skills that use that stat? this would likely boost existing skills per level to around 6, with the caveat being around half of them would be restricted to dex/str skills like swim, climb, and acrobatics... skills a fighter would/should use.

I would also think adding additional traits every few levels would help make up for the skill divide.


M1k31 wrote:
Con(I can't think of anything that uses con atm... so Idk about this one)

3.5e Concentration.

There are no Pathfinder Con skills.


Rhedyn wrote:

This is my fix for fighters

Our group play tested it and thought it worked well.

I like the stances and the change to bonus feats!

Some of the other abilities seem a bit much ( am I reading it right that a 20th lvl fighter with haste will have 4 standard actions per round?!)
But I like the thought behind the armor training and the battle experience. Nice ideas!


Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

The difference is that:

1) a utility caster and a DDamage caster are still.both using the same casting stat so no need to skimp

2)A blaster can still grab utility spells and not sacrifice a single thing... divine casters all spells for free!

3) a 13 int will gwt you a total of 3 skills... ohhhhh so much!!!

4) martials NEED to Dump most of their feats into tthings for combat because fea trees are ridiculous. .. also, feats scale piss poorly vs spells...

Hmm, while I started this discussion, I think it's better to abort here. If some people think the fighter needs an improvement, that's their opinion.


SheepishEidolon wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

The difference is that:

1) a utility caster and a DDamage caster are still.both using the same casting stat so no need to skimp

2)A blaster can still grab utility spells and not sacrifice a single thing... divine casters all spells for free!

3) a 13 int will gwt you a total of 3 skills... ohhhhh so much!!!

4) martials NEED to Dump most of their feats into tthings for combat because fea trees are ridiculous. .. also, feats scale piss poorly vs spells...

Hmm, while I started this discussion, I think it's better to abort here. If some people think the fighter needs an improvement, that's their opinion.

Nah it's a fact under the current rules set. It's why everyone would rather fight a level 15 fighter then a level 15 Wizard. While certainly something people have an opinion on, it is nonetheless a fact that a Fighter is an inferior threat compared to a Wizard for the majority of the game (past say level 7 to be very fair).


LuxuriantOak wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

This is my fix for fighters

Our group play tested it and thought it worked well.

I like the stances and the change to bonus feats!

Some of the other abilities seem a bit much ( am I reading it right that a 20th lvl fighter with haste will have 4 standard actions per round?!)
But I like the thought behind the armor training and the battle experience. Nice ideas!

Haste no longer gives an extra standard action.

Ty though!


Anzyr wrote:
SheepishEidolon wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

The difference is that:

1) a utility caster and a DDamage caster are still.both using the same casting stat so no need to skimp

2)A blaster can still grab utility spells and not sacrifice a single thing... divine casters all spells for free!

3) a 13 int will gwt you a total of 3 skills... ohhhhh so much!!!

4) martials NEED to Dump most of their feats into tthings for combat because fea trees are ridiculous. .. also, feats scale piss poorly vs spells...

Hmm, while I started this discussion, I think it's better to abort here. If some people think the fighter needs an improvement, that's their opinion.
Nah it's a fact under the current rules set. It's why everyone would rather fight a level 15 fighter then a level 15 Wizard. While certainly something people have an opinion on, it is nonetheless a fact that a Fighter is an inferior threat compared to a Wizard for the majority of the game (past say level 7 to be very fair).

To be fair, my players hate going up against NPC fighters. 1 full round attack, and someone is probably going to be dead. It's happened twice in the last two levels that an NPC fighter has dropped a player from full (or near full) hit points to dead, in a single round. Can a wizard do that too? Yeah, if they have the right spell memorized and if the target fails its save.

Fighters are plenty dangerous in combat (unless you aren't playing them very well), my main concern to give them a few more non-combat options.


WhiteMagus2000 wrote:

To be fair, my players hate going up against NPC fighters. 1 full round attack, and someone is probably going to be dead. It's happened twice in the last two levels that an NPC fighter has dropped a player from full (or near full) hit points to dead, in a single round. Can a wizard do that too? Yeah, if they have the right spell memorized and if the target fails its save.

Fighters are plenty dangerous in combat (unless you aren't playing them very well), my main concern to give them a few more non-combat options.

Until the party wizard forces them to make a will save...

Meet bill. He is my personal man servant. ..


Unless the fighter rolls higher on the init and kills the wizard in a single charge attack (which is how one of those two deaths happened). Or if he makes his save, or has a lowly protection for evil up, or the the wizard does get control of him and foolishly commands him to attack his allies, thus granting a second save a higher bonus.

After level 10 everything get very dangerous. Almost every class can kill or seriously mez within a single round. Of all my playesr mabye 1 would have a hard time killing any of the others in a single round of attacks.

I was hoping this wouldn't degenerate into another NERF THE WIZARD thread. Oh well.


WhiteMagus2000 wrote:

Unless the fighter rolls higher on the init and kills the wizard in a single charge attack (which is how one of those two deaths happened). Or if he makes his save, or has a lowly protection for evil up, or the the wizard does get control of him and foolishly commands him to attack his allies, thus granting a second save a higher bonus.

After level 10 everything get very dangerous. Almost every class can kill or seriously mez within a single round. Of all my playesr mabye 1 would have a hard time killing any of the others in a single round of attacks.

I was hoping this wouldn't degenerate into another NERF THE WIZARD thread. Oh well.

But also Wizards tend to have higher dex + more Initiative buffs (familiar and divination are popular.)

FFighters tend to need all physical stats, and hogh wis so his over all stats tend to be lower. A wizard (or sorcerer... or arcanist) tends to have.very high dex and initiativ buffs since a wizard can shut down combat on hia first spell.


Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
WhiteMagus2000 wrote:

Unless the fighter rolls higher on the init and kills the wizard in a single charge attack (which is how one of those two deaths happened). Or if he makes his save, or has a lowly protection for evil up, or the the wizard does get control of him and foolishly commands him to attack his allies, thus granting a second save a higher bonus.

After level 10 everything get very dangerous. Almost every class can kill or seriously mez within a single round. Of all my playesr mabye 1 would have a hard time killing any of the others in a single round of attacks.

I was hoping this wouldn't degenerate into another NERF THE WIZARD thread. Oh well.

But also Wizards tend to have higher dex + more Initiative buffs (familiar and divination are popular.)

FFighters tend to need all physical stats, and hogh wis so his over all stats tend to be lower. A wizard (or sorcerer... or arcanist) tends to have.very high dex and initiativ buffs since a wizard can shut down combat on hia first spell.

And initiative boosting famliars are very common.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

For skills, I did what I noted above....Bravery to most mental skills, Armor training to Dex skills, and Weapon Training to Con/Str skills.

However...I also took EXPERTISE, and added it to all skills with a martial theme to them, to signify that, well, you're an Expert. So a high level fighter can totally crush an archmage at chess (+6 from Expertise, +5 from bravery = +11, which is like a 32 Int).

==Aelryinth


Personally I think giving the fighter improvised weapon training and giving Him equipment tricks every few levels is thematic and adds some versatility to the fighter.

Equipmet tricks especially... I mean, the fighter is supposed to bE a master of combat and gear. Allowing him the ability to utilize his sheathe for offense, or do some cool stuff witj a.hammer I think Is much for fitting than a few extra skill points. It wpuld almost be like a fighter version of a "skill unlock"

Also the improvised weapon thing I feel is fitting since it gives the fighter something different. Not many classes or archetypes are good at improvising, but allowing a fighter to always be good at improvising gives him some cool flavor (he learned to live with what he got since he could lean on magic or stuff) amd kind of make it so he is always deadly and deady to fight. Even with An umbrella...


Atarlost wrote:

I'm of the opinion that the fighter needs a strong will save.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that every non-caster except barbarian needs a strong will save and the arcane casters don't.

Noncasters and 4th level casters should have all good saves, 6th level casters two good saves and 9th level casters one good save that is not will.


Just a Guess wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

I'm of the opinion that the fighter needs a strong will save.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that every non-caster except barbarian needs a strong will save and the arcane casters don't.

Noncasters and 4th level casters should have all good saves, 6th level casters two good saves and 9th level casters one good save that is not will.

Interesting idea, my opinion would be: 9th lvl casters get a good will save, full BAB classes get a good Fortitude save, and 6th lvl casters (+the monk & rogue) get 2 good saves (1 of them probably reflex)

but it's just the first thought ...


9th level casters are the strongest classes so they should be more vulnerable -> 1 good save. They have to open up to magic to cast spells: No good will save.
6th level casters are next because they still have lots of spells to make reality do what they want so they should get two good saves. They are diverse. No total focus on magic makes it possible to better protect against it. Saves vary by class.
mundane/4th casters: Third grade classes that deserve some love. The have the least connection to magic: Strong will, they train more because they don't spend time one magic: Strong fort and ref.


I have a possible solution, but it's still a work in progress, and there is much to be done. It's somewhat based on my very first homebrew for Pathfinder. :)


dot


Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

This should just be given to fighterss...

I mean, they are THE fighting guys. I wpuld think Equipment Trick and Improvised Weapon would come standard on them to kinda drivw home the "this guy is a deadly killer" thing...

Honestly, I think equipment trick feats should be available to everyone who has the necessary feats/skill ranks, etc.

In fact, I'll add that to my houserules document.


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Steal anything you like:

Spoiler:
FIGHTER
HD d10; BAB full; skill points: 4+Int mod/level
Good saves: Fort, Ref, Will (Making bravery apply to Will saves has always seemed like an inefficient means of addressing his poor will save.)

1: Combat Expertise, feat aptitude, war master's edge +1
2: Bonus feat, bravery I
3: Mettle, personal weapon +1
4: Bonus feat, stamina I, strong stomach I
5: Battlefield control (10 ft.), war master's edge +2
6: Bonus feat, bravery II, onslaught of blows
7: Combat mobility, personal weapon +2
8: Bonus feat, stamina II
9: Battlefield control (15 ft.), war master's edge +3,
10: Bonus feat, bravery III, tactical commander
11: Personal weapon +3, warlord
12: Bonus feat, strong stomach II
13: Superior battlefield control (20 ft.), war master's edge +4
14: Bonus feat, bravery IV, cheat the fog of war
15: Indomitable will, personal weapon +4
16: Bonus feat, supreme vital strike
17: Battlefield control (25 ft.), war master's edge +5
18: Bonus feat, supreme warlord
19: Desperate resolve, personal weapon +5
20: Bonus feat

Feat Aptitude (Ex): When selecting a combat feat, the fighter can ignore one of the feat's prerequisites.

War Master's Edge (Ex): Combat is the fighter's stock in trade, and he's better at it than anyone. At 1st level, his training provides a +1 insight bonus to attacks, CMB, damage, initiative checks, and AC/CMB. In addition, his armor check penalty is reduced by 1 and the max Dex AC from armor increases by 1. (i.e., weapon training + armor training + initiative bonus.) The bonus provided by this ability increases as shown in the table.

Bravery (Ex): At 2nd level, the fighter is immune to effects that cause the shaken condition. For more severe fear, the effect is lessened by 1 step (cowering -> panicked -> frightened -> shaken). The severity is reduced by 2 steps at 6th level, by 3 steps at 10th level, and a fighter of 14th level or higher is immune to [fear] effects.

Mettle (Ex): As evasion, but applies to Fort/Will effects.

Personal Weapon (Su): At 3rd level, the fighter selects a single weapon (not type of weapon) at the start of each day. That weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus when wielded by the fighter. If already +1, the fighter can increase its enhancement bonus by +1 or cause it to gain a +1 equivalent weapon property. The additional enhancement bonus to this weapon improved as shown in the table.

Stamina (Ex): At 4th level, the fighter's endurance training renders him immune to effects that cause the fatigued condition. If he would normally be exhausted, he becomes fatigued instead. At 8th level he is immune to exhaustion.

Strong Stomach (Ex): A fighter is inured to the sight of blood and the stench of corpses on the battlefield. At 4th level he is immune to effects that cause the sickened condition; if nauseated, he is sickened instead. At 12th level he is immune to nausea.

Battlefield Control (Ex): At 5h level, the fighter gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. In addition, he can choose to reduce his movement speed by 5 ft. for one round in order to extend his threatened area by 5 ft. For every 4 levels above 5th, he can trade an additional 5 ft. (up to his maximum movement speed). Enemies who have not seen the fighter use this ability are not necessarily aware of it.

Onslaught of Blows (Ex): A fighter takes no penalty on iterative attacks (thus, a 16th level fighter attacks at +16/+16/+16/+16).

Combat Mobility (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter can take a full move and still full attack. Movement and attacks can be interspaced as the fighter sees fit, but all movement must be taken in 5-ft. increments. This ability also allows the fighter to make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Tactical Commander (Ex): Starting at 10th level, the fighter can spend a move action in order to grant allies who can see and hear him the benefits of his War Master’s Edge, but at only half his normal bonus.

Warlord (Ex): At 11th level, the fighter’s prowess and renown are is such that he can assemble an army eager to serve under him. This requires 1 week and provides personnel as if the fighter had the Leadership feat (if he or she already has the Leadership feat, the effects stack). The newly-assembled army remains until the purpose of assembling is fulfilled, or after 1 month of inactivity in any event.

Superior Battlefield Control (Ex): Starting at 13th level, as a free action the fighter can designate any portion of his threatened area as difficult terrain.

Cheat the Fog of War (Ex): At 14th level, the fighter’s instinctive awareness of tactics and battlefield positioning is unmatched. He can deduce which effects are illusory and which threats are real, even from magically-concealed enemies; this counts as true seeing, but is an extraordinary ability that cannot be dispelled. When faced with a projected image, the fighter can deduce the actual location of the caster.

Indomitable Will (Ex): A fighter of 15th level or higher under an ongoing [mind-affecting] effect may attempt an additional Will save each round to end the effect. If the effect does not normally allow a save, the fighter gains a Will save (DC 25) to end the effect.

Supreme Vital Strike (Ex): Starting at 16th level, as full round action the fighter can make a single melee or ranged weapon attack that deals base damage equal to the normal weapon base damage x his fighter level. Effects like lead blades, etc. follow the normal rules for adding multipliers (e.g., a 16th level fighter with a lead bladed longsword deals a base 17d8 damage with this attack).

Supreme Warlord (Ex): Starting at 18th level, opponents with a CR equal to half the fighter’s level or less must save vs. Will each round (DC 10 + the fighter’s level) spent in combat against him. Failure indicates that they are so awed by his prowess that they throw down their arms and surrender to him; if he or his companions continue to attack them, they flee if possible (a dishonorable fighter can use his battlefield control ability to impede their retreat, allowing them to be slaughtered). If their surrender is accepted, the fighter can spend a move action to recruit them to his side; this change of allegiance lasts for as long as they remain within his presence.

Desperate Resolve: Starting at 19th level, the fighter no longer automatically fails saves on a natural 1.


@Kirth: The entry for Bonus Feat is missing.


Caedwyr wrote:
@Kirth: The entry for Bonus Feat is missing.

As in the core rules, except, of course, you get to ignore 1 prereq each because of Feat Aptitude.

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