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...common sense?
...applied to magic?
No, applied to what the magic allows you to do. ("The subject can fly", this is the only thing the spell tells you that matters.") If it was supposed to set up a wholly new paradigm of using movement by means of mental actions, it would tell you so. It doesn't tell you any of that. It just says that the subject can fly.
The Fly spell is what is moving you.
Sure, in the sense that it makes you able to fly, within the normal framework of movement rules.
If you are trying to say that any effect that produces a physical result of any sort must by default be a 'physical action'... then I must ask you a spell with a duration of concentration fits into your world view...
I'm not trying to say that.
Again, I will point out that nowhere does it say any action of any sort is required to control or use Fly.
Exactly! And because it doesn't, everything about the flight it grants defaults to the usual rules for using Move actions to move.
It grants you the ability to Fly, and requires concentration to use.
Just like walking!
Any declaration of action types required is a fabrication based on assumptions unless there is text showing otherwise.
Exactly! So we use the usual Move action to move, because we have nowhere else to go in the rules without making up stuff.
Concentration, for example, is mentioned in the spell.
But how much? The same amount as walking does. How much is that? When did concentration to control spells become a quantifiable thing? You either concentrate on a spell, or you don't. Perhaps the concentration mentioned in Fly isn't the same kind of concentration that casters use to direct/control their ongoing spells. In fact, I'm sure it's not because it's the subject doing the concentrating (however much it may be) not the caster. You don't need a spellcaster's "Concentration" for uncontrolled spells anyway.
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Adding further, in your opinion, a character that is using a Powered Armor or a Jetpack that is paralyzed can still fly? They don't need to flap wings.
Powered Armor .
Jetpack [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/technolog ical-gear.
What about using Broom of Flying, Carpet of Flying, Winged Boots?
The paralyzed condition allows for mental actions.
You do not get mental actions in the game.
You also don't get physical actions.
We need to apply logic here.
Clearly there are actions that are mental, and also some that are physical. Concentrating on a spell doesn't involve you moving, and you can do it while paralyzed.
"Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration."
But it actually doesn't say that.
So by your assertion, you can only concentrate on a spell if you are NOT paralyzed.
Yes or no?
You have actions, they are labelled as Move and Standard (and free, and swift etc). These are labels only.
You don't change location on the map when you pull something out of a bag.
You don't have to run around when you are commanding an animal companion.
Assuming that the name of the action type determines what can be done with it is a false assumption.
The actions that you do tell you what action type gets used up.
As above, concentrating on a spell uses up a standard action, it does not require the ability to move or attack to do it... It simply uses up your Standard action for the round.
Using Fly to move requires a move action, it does not require you to be able to move under your own power to do it, simply to have the action type of 'move' still available for use.
Saying that Fly requires as much concentration as walking does not mean you have to be able to walk. It simply requires as much CONCENTRATION. An amount of mental effort equal to controlling another act, not a physical exertion of effort to perform another act.
Chop off someones legs and they lose the ability to walk. They can still cast Fly.
At least according to me.
Maybe not according to you.
Look at the Demilich. It is a disembodied head. No arms, no legs. Would you argue that it isn't allowed to cast Fly?
This argument is getting tiring, because there is so much to support the idea that Fly can be used by someone with no arms or legs... and no evidence to go against that.
What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?
What intrinsic property does a Demilich have that allows him to use the spell? Where in the rules is it?
Fly does not mention control being a physical act. It DOES talk about concentration.
Concentration is not a physical action. It is a mental one.
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1)none of your physical actions will ever make you flyFlying is the physical action.
Flying with WINGS is strictly a physical action.
The rules don't state this anymore than flying without wings, whether you're a beholder or air elemental or bird. The rules are silent on what actions require physical actions. However, "purely mental action" is a state, and unless something provides it we can assume it isn't there. The Paralyzation doesn't say "you can take action that don't require physical movement", it says "you can take purely mental actions". The onus isn't on proving there is a physical component to flight, it's on proving flight is a purely mental action.
The Fly spell is based around no physical actions, only the concentration level used for a physical movement.
Seriously, can people stop claiming this when the spell says nothing of the sort? It says that it doesn't require more concentration that walking, so that you can act normally. Concentration is a game term for spells that limit what actions you can take. It has nothing to do with how to "control" the spell at all.
@Darklord Morius
It's actually getting more fun then that. According to some people in the topic, any person casting a spell with a movement type retains such movement even after being paralyzed because it's "mental action". Really, this is actually flexible thinking.
So being paralyzed prevents casting a silenced spell?
Say... teleport?
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@Darklord Morius
It's actually getting more fun then that. According to some people in the topic, any person casting a spell with a movement type retains such movement even after being paralyzed because it's "mental action". Really, this is actually flexible thinking.
So being paralyzed prevents casting a silenced spell?
Say... teleport?
No one said that.
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination.
Teleport instantly transports you. It does not require movement and it has only a Verbal component.
However, if you were paralyzed and you cast teleport, you would teleport naked, because:
You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load.
Magical flight isn't a physical movement, anyone with a decent knowledge in actual physics can tell you so.
A paralyzed pc is like the miniature figure of your pc. It is immobile and just sits there if you don't touch it.
The player's hand is like the Fly spell, where your hand represents thought and will.So your hand (representing mental action) can pick up your static figure (representing the paralyzed pc) and whoosh it around in the air like it is flying.
I think people are getting confused and thinking that flying is like what Superman does where he gracefully shifts his body from left to right or extends his arms in one direction of the other to maneuver through the air.
Well, no its not! This is Pathfinder. Flying is more like having a giant invisible thought-hand grabbing you and moving you around the squares of a grid. This means you can fly even if you are paralyzed, wrapped up in chains and sealed inside a (not-too-heavy) wooden box, or using spells that turn you into an otherwise immobile object like Tree Shape or Statue.Clearly things like Brooms and Carpets of Flying are based on the Fly spell and those are just static objects without dexterity scores or any appendages to simulate physical actions (a broom or carpet can't wave its left arm to turn left since it has no arms).
Lets try not to go against the rules here.
Encumbrance will make you fall. You have to be naked.
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The game has 4 types of movement: land speed, Swim Speed, burrow speed and fly speed. No matter what actual physics say (Especially if we are trying to talk about magical flight).
Edit: If it's a invisible hand of will, why the hell encumberance would matter?
Remember, i'm with the assumption that you froze in place in the air, why is that? Just because of fluff and fairness.
A Player whant to describe his flight exactly as superman does. Another describes his flight as spirits of the air pushes him overland.
The first would fall, the second won't. That's unfair, so i judge both don't fall.
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Crosspost from the other thread:
There is a distinction in the rules for paralyze that says that purely mental actions can be taken. That does not require that any other action be defined as mental or non-mental. That includes Fly, which does not distinguish between the mental part of flying or physical part of flying.
Flying is a physical act, made evidence by the fact that it uses a Dex-based skill roll to pass certain checks. The argument has been made that checks are not required for magical Fly unless making certain maneuvers and therefore Flying is not a physical act. This is wrong. It is a logical fallacy to assume as such. Compare this to walking:
You don't need a check to walk. You don't need a check to run. But to run at a sustained pace, you make a constitution check. To see if you can traverse difficult terrain you might make an acrobatics check. Does this mean that the base act of walking, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No. The same logic can be applied to the ride skill. Basic riding requires no checks at all. Would you say then that riding is not physical, until it requires a check? No, because anyone can plainly see that riding is a physical act.
Now, let's perform a philosophical exercise and apply that same logic that we applied to walking and riding to flying:
When you are Flying, whether from the effects of a spell or from natural flight, you are still using a skill that requires dexterity. Even if you are not actively rolling to perform maneuvers, it does not change the stat or skill associated with that act, just like walking doesn't become a purely mental action because you are not actively performing "walk checks" and riding doesn't become purely mental because you aren't making ride checks. If magical flight was a purely mental, magical act, it would not be associated with the dex-based Fly skill, it would be associated with Spellcraft or something more appropriate for a magical means of flight.
When you are flying, whether via magical means or mundane, you are physically moving. Paralyze specifically prevents you from moving. Physical movement is not a mental action. It follows then that you cannot move while paralyzed even if you are under the effect of the Fly spell.
The game has 4 types of movement: land speed, Swim Speed, burrow speed and fly speed. No matter what actual physics say (Especially if we are trying to talk about magical flight).
Edit: If it's a invisible hand of will, why the hell encumberance would matter?
Remember, i'm with the assumption that you froze in place in the air, why is that? Just because of fluff and fairness.
A Player whant to describe his flight exactly as superman does. Another describes his flight as spirits of the air pushes him overland.
The first would fall, the second won't. That's unfair, so i judge both don't fall.
If encumbered, they can't stay in the air, and plummet down to earth splatty splat.
Crosspost from the other thread:
There is a distinction in the rules for paralyze that says that purely mental actions can be taken. That does not require that any other action be defined as mental or non-mental. That includes Fly, which does not distinguish between the mental part of flying or physical part of flying.
Flying is a physical act, made evidence by the fact that it uses a Dex-based skill roll to pass certain checks. The argument has been made that checks are not required for magical Fly unless making certain maneuvers and therefore Flying is not a physical act. This is wrong. It is a logical fallacy to assume as such. Compare this to walking:
You don't need a check to walk. You don't need a check to run. But to run at a sustained pace, you make a constitution check. To see if you can traverse difficult terrain you might make an acrobatics check. Does this mean that the base act of walking, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No. The same logic can be applied to the ride skill. Basic riding requires no checks at all. Would you say then that riding is not physical, until it requires a check? No, because anyone can plainly see that riding is a physical act.
Now, let's perform a philosophical exercise and apply that same logic that we applied to walking and riding to flying:
When you are Flying, whether from the effects of a spell or from natural flight, you are still using a skill that requires dexterity. Even if you are not actively rolling to perform maneuvers, it does not change the stat or skill associated with that act, just like walking doesn't become a purely mental action because you are not actively performing "walk checks" and riding doesn't become purely mental because you aren't making ride checks. If magical flight was a purely mental, magical act, it would not be associated with the dex-based Fly skill, it would be associated with Spellcraft or something more appropriate for a magical means of...
blah blah blah.
You get paralyzed, a giant picks you up.
Can he?
Why can't Fly?
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...Crosspost from the other thread:
There is a distinction in the rules for paralyze that says that purely mental actions can be taken. That does not require that any other action be defined as mental or non-mental. That includes Fly, which does not distinguish between the mental part of flying or physical part of flying.
Flying is a physical act, made evidence by the fact that it uses a Dex-based skill roll to pass certain checks. The argument has been made that checks are not required for magical Fly unless making certain maneuvers and therefore Flying is not a physical act. This is wrong. It is a logical fallacy to assume as such. Compare this to walking:
You don't need a check to walk. You don't need a check to run. But to run at a sustained pace, you make a constitution check. To see if you can traverse difficult terrain you might make an acrobatics check. Does this mean that the base act of walking, which does not require a roll and has no associated stat, is not physical because it doesn't require a roll? No. The same logic can be applied to the ride skill. Basic riding requires no checks at all. Would you say then that riding is not physical, until it requires a check? No, because anyone can plainly see that riding is a physical act.
Now, let's perform a philosophical exercise and apply that same logic that we applied to walking and riding to flying:
When you are Flying, whether from the effects of a spell or from natural flight, you are still using a skill that requires dexterity. Even if you are not actively rolling to perform maneuvers, it does not change the stat or skill associated with that act, just like walking doesn't become a purely mental action because you are not actively performing "walk checks" and riding doesn't become purely mental because you aren't making ride checks. If magical flight was a purely mental, magical act, it would not be associated with the dex-based Fly skill, it would be associated with Spellcraft or something more
BLAH BLAH BLAH?! Thanks for showing a modicum of respect (that's sarcasm); I'm so glad I don't play games with you. Why don't you actually read what I wrote and try again?
If you are paralyzed and a giant picks you up, that's because the giant is taking a physical action (a standard action with a CMB check) to do so. Fly does not have it's own will. Fly cannot move you without you actually trying to Fly. That is why it requires a Dex-based skill to make more complex flight maneuvers, the same way Walk requires a dex-based skill (Acrobatics) to make more complex land-based maneuvers.
Crosspost from the other thread:
There is a distinction in the rules for paralyze that says that purely mental actions can be taken. That does not require that any other action be defined as mental or non-mental.
Why wouldn't it require that? If you get immunity to cold damage, that only protects you from damage that is called out as cold.
The rest of the post I agree with. But there needs to be at least a strong implication of something being purely mental (like in breaking out from Hold Person). Move actions have nothing like that.
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Crosspost from the other thread:
There is a distinction in the rules for paralyze that says that purely mental actions can be taken. That does not require that any other action be defined as mental or non-mental.
Why wouldn't it require that? If you get immunity to cold damage, that only protects you from damage that is called out as cold.
The rest of the post I agree with. But there needs to be at least a strong implication of something being purely mental (like in breaking out from Hold Person). Move actions have nothing like that.
I think you misunderstand me. Your character could have immunity to cold damage, but that doesn't mean that any ability or effect in the game has to apply cold damage. There might not be a single thing in the game that applies cold damage. It just means you're immune to it if it comes up. Things like this happen all the time, and especially in Pathfinder, where the rules were changed just enough from 3.5 to cause issues like this.
Similarly, as I was trying to explain, even if paralyze allows you to take purely mental actions (such as thinking), no defined action or ability in the game's rules need to specify that it is purely mental. Maybe there are no purely mental actions aside from thought. It doesn't matter, because flight is not purely mental no matter how you look at it.
A paralyzed pc is like the miniature figure of your pc. It is immobile and just sits there if you don't touch it.
The player's hand is like the Fly spell, where your hand represents thought and will.So your hand (representing mental action) can pick up your static figure (representing the paralyzed pc) and whoosh it around in the air like it is flying.
I think people are getting confused and thinking that flying is like what Superman does where he gracefully shifts his body from left to right or extends his arms in one direction of the other to maneuver through the air.
Well, no its not! This is Pathfinder. Flying is more like having a giant invisible thought-hand grabbing you and moving you around the squares of a grid. This means you can fly even if you are paralyzed, wrapped up in chains and sealed inside a (not-too-heavy) wooden box, or using spells that turn you into an otherwise immobile object like Tree Shape or Statue.Clearly things like Brooms and Carpets of Flying are based on the Fly spell and those are just static objects without dexterity scores or any appendages to simulate physical actions (a broom or carpet can't wave its left arm to turn left since it has no arms).
You have superman all wrong. There are many depictions of Superman standing there, arms folded hovering and flying about without twitching a muscle. As if he is showing off.
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...Crosspost from the other thread:
BLAH BLAH BLAH?! Thanks for showing a modicum of respect (that's sarcasm); I'm so glad I don't play games with you. Why don't you actually read what I wrote and try again?If you are paralyzed and a giant picks you up, that's because the giant is taking a physical action (a standard action with a CMB check) to do so. Fly does not have it's own will. Fly cannot move you without you actually trying to Fly. That is why it requires a Dex-based skill to make more complex flight maneuvers, the same way Walk requires a dex-based skill (Acrobatics) to make more complex land-based maneuvers.
Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
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Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
I am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.
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I am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
That is what is implied not what is written. There is nothing in the rules written anywhere that the fly spell is based on physical dexterity to use.
What is written is that flight is maintained through concentration.
I am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
That is what is implied not what is written. There is nothing in the rules written anywhere that the fly spell is based on physical dexterity to use.
What is written is that flight is maintained through concentration.
The effect of the spell (the ability to fly) is maintained through concentration, just like any other spell which requires concentration. It just happens that the concentration required for this spell is so minimal that you don't need to actively concentrate (to maintain the spell, not to perform the act of flight granted by the spell). Actually moving with the spell requires taking a move action, which is explicitly not permissible when paralyzed (you cannot move or act).
The rules for flight are under the fly skill, where all rules for flight are, and apply whether you are flying magically or naturally, because they apply to anything with a fly speed. Please read the CRB before posting.
I am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
That is what is implied not what is written. There is nothing in the rules written anywhere that the fly spell is based on physical dexterity to use.
What is written is that flight is maintained through concentration.
No, flight is maintained by either flying half your move each turn, or making a fly check to go slower than that or hover. Doing that only requires as much concentration as walking.
(Which isn't the type of concentration used to control or direct ongoing spells, obviously, because, walking isn't a controlled spell. And neither is Fly. Fly just says that the subject can fly. Spells that require control explain how that control is exercised, and I can't even think of a spell that has the target take control instead of the caster.)
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I am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
That is what is implied not what is written. There is nothing in the rules written anywhere that the fly spell is based on physical dexterity to use.
What is written is that flight is maintained through concentration.
The effect of the spell (the ability to fly) is maintained through concentration, just like any other spell which requires concentration. It just happens that the concentration required for this spell is so minimal that you don't need to actively concentrate (to maintain the spell, not to perform the act of flight granted by the spell). Actually moving with the spell requires taking a move action, which is explicitly not permissible when paralyzed (you cannot move or act).
The rules for flight are under the fly skill, where all rules for flight are, and apply whether you are flying magically or naturally, because they apply to anything with a fly speed. Please read the CRB before posting.
At least you used the polite way of telling me to F off, that's respectful...(for someone asking for respect a few posts ago) and i have read the CRB thank you very much, which is why we are here, THIS IS NOT COVERED IN THE BOOK!
The the fly skill is only for complex maneuvers as written, we are not attempting a complex maneuver so we don't need to use the fly skill, so no dexterity needed for the fly spell, maintaining flight is done through a mental action, i don't need to move any part of my body to keep moving forward through the spell i just have to think about it, If i tried to do a 180 turn i would fail. but forward no problem.
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We can imply all sorts of things. The spell makes you grow wings, its transmutation after all and the focus is a feather, must mean something physically changes with you right? most other transmutation spells make something physically change with you, so it must with this one! fact its in the rules no cite needed....
/end sarcastic rant
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At least you used the polite way of telling me to F off, that's respectful...(for someone asking for respect a few posts ago) and i have read the...I am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
That is what is implied not what is written. There is nothing in the rules written anywhere that the fly spell is based on physical dexterity to use.
What is written is that flight is maintained through concentration.
The effect of the spell (the ability to fly) is maintained through concentration, just like any other spell which requires concentration. It just happens that the concentration required for this spell is so minimal that you don't need to actively concentrate (to maintain the spell, not to perform the act of flight granted by the spell). Actually moving with the spell requires taking a move action, which is explicitly not permissible when paralyzed (you cannot move or act).
The rules for flight are under the fly skill, where all rules for flight are, and apply whether you are flying magically or naturally, because they apply to anything with a fly speed. Please read the CRB before posting.
I didn't tell you to F off. That was inferred (incorrectly) by you. You incorrectly stated that Fly doesn't use the fly skill (it does -- read the Fly spell, and then read the rules about Flying under the fly skill). If you are flying magically and wish to hover, you still must make a dexterity-based Fly check. This more than implies that magical Flight is a physical act. This is the strongest implication there can be without coming right out and stating plainly that it is a physical act. This is a much stronger implication than "Paralysis doesn't say you can't mentally, magically fly and magical flight just requires concentration so I can fly even when I'm paralyzed and can't move."
Regardless, the bottom line is this:
- Paralysis says you cannot move or act.
- Moving with Fly is a move action.
- It follows that if you are paralyzed, you cannot move with Fly.
What is written is that flight is maintained through concentration.
No, it isn't. And at this point that has been pointed out enough that further claiming it is simply looks disingenious rather than confused.
...At least you used the polite way of telling me to F off, that's respectful...(for someone asking for respect a fewI am listening. It is simple, you're right. I've explained how simple it is many, many times. I have read every post by alexd1976 in this thread and the other thread. He is still wrong, and will continue to be, no matter how many times it is repeated or by whom. Flying requires a physical act, as evidenced by the fact that there are associated dexterity-based skill checks for flight maneuvers.Because he is tired of repeating himself and it seems like no one is even listening to him. this is simple and everyone is trying to make it complicated
To maintain flight via the spell "only requires concentration..." Concentration per the rules is a mental or thought driven action
Per Paralyzed "Can still take mental actions"
Ergo can still fly,
stop making it complicated by adding what you think paralyzed means.
That is what is implied not what is written. There is nothing in the rules written anywhere that the fly spell is based on physical dexterity to use.
What is written is that flight is maintained through concentration.
The effect of the spell (the ability to fly) is maintained through concentration, just like any other spell which requires concentration. It just happens that the concentration required for this spell is so minimal that you don't need to actively concentrate (to maintain the spell, not to perform the act of flight granted by the spell). Actually moving with the spell requires taking a move action, which is explicitly not permissible when paralyzed (you cannot move or act).
The rules for flight are under the fly skill, where all rules for flight are, and apply whether you are flying magically or naturally, because they apply to anything with a fly speed. Please read the CRB before posting.
It actually implies that performing complex maneuvers has a physical component. 6et there must be an additional component due to the fact that there is an additional bonus equal to half caster level. Meaning that something besides physical movement is involved. If you take away all of the physical bonuses, there is still something there aiding flight.
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It actually implies that performing complex maneuvers has a physical component.
That must mean the Ride skill only has a physical component when making complex ride maneuvers and is otherwise a completely non-physical action. Mounting a horse, then, is non-physical because it doesn't require a check. Do you see the problem with your analysis?
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It actually implies that performing complex maneuvers has a physical component.That must mean the Ride skill only has a physical component when making complex ride maneuvers and is otherwise a completely non-physical action. Mounting a horse, then, is non-physical because it doesn't require a check. Do you see the problem with your analysis?
except that the action taken to mount the horse is your own and not from a magical source, it something magical was aiding you mount the horse then there may not be a physical action needed on your part.
It actually implies that performing complex maneuvers has a physical component.That must mean the Ride skill only has a physical component when making complex ride maneuvers and is otherwise a completely non-physical action. Mounting a horse, then, is non-physical because it doesn't require a check. Do you see the problem with your analysis?
Where do you see a spell called ride? There isnt one. The ride skill requires you to physically hold onto and control another creature or device.
It actually implies that performing complex maneuvers has a physical component.That must mean the Ride skill only has a physical component when making complex ride maneuvers and is otherwise a completely non-physical action. Mounting a horse, then, is non-physical because it doesn't require a check. Do you see the problem with your analysis?Where do you see a spell called ride? There isnt one. The ride skill requires you to physically hold onto and control another creature or device.
And the Fly skill requires you to physically control your flight, regardless of the means of flight.
What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?
The Demilich isn't paralyzed.
The fly spell doesn't give you magical wings that you use physically.
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The fly spell doesn't give you magical wings that you use physically.
The fly skill requires that you make dex-based skill checks even when using magical flight. And, once again, it doesn't matter because the bottom line is this:
- Paralysis prevents movement.
- Flying is movement.
- If you are paralyzed you cannot move using fly.
And the Fly skill requires you to physically control your flight, regardless of the means of flight.It actually implies that performing complex maneuvers has a physical component.That must mean the Ride skill only has a physical component when making complex ride maneuvers and is otherwise a completely non-physical action. Mounting a horse, then, is non-physical because it doesn't require a check. Do you see the problem with your analysis?Where do you see a spell called ride? There isnt one. The ride skill requires you to physically hold onto and control another creature or device.
Yet there is a bonus to fly that isn't physical.
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The fly spell doesn't give you magical wings that you use physically.
Nor does it explicitly state it is a purely mental action, but it does refer to (and therefore connect itself with physical action) the Fly skill. The game rules implicate that clearly. More so than the creative thinking of it somehow being a strictly mental action.
It is an exception based rule set. If something is a thing, it is stated to be such OR stated to be an exception of something explicitly. There is no rules support of the Fly spell being a purely mental action at all.
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hmm, if you have an effective str of 0, what's your maximum weight you can carry?
Even if Flying is a mental action, I hope you were flying nakies.
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What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?The Demilich isn't paralyzed.
the demilich has nothing to move. its a floating head. so by your ruleing that magical flight is a physical based effect the demilich as a creature wouldn't work. as would multiple other creatures based around magical flight.
casting paralyze on it wouldn't stop it from doing anything but talking.
Yet there is a bonus to fly that isn't physical.And the Fly skill requires you to physically control your flight, regardless of the means of flight.It actually implies that performing complex maneuvers has a physical component.That must mean the Ride skill only has a physical component when making complex ride maneuvers and is otherwise a completely non-physical action. Mounting a horse, then, is non-physical because it doesn't require a check. Do you see the problem with your analysis?Where do you see a spell called ride? There isnt one. The ride skill requires you to physically hold onto and control another creature or device.
If you are trying to say that because there is a magical bonus to the flight that the flight itself is somehow not physical, you are mistaken. By that logic, any time any action received a non-physical bonus, the action itself is no longer physical, either. Doesn't work that way.
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There isnt one. The ride skill requires you to physically hold onto and control another creature or device.
"You are skilled at riding mounts, usually a horse, but possibly something more exotic, like a griffon or pegasus. If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.
Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem. The following tasks do require checks."
The support for riding requiring physical movement is as heavy as that for flying requiring physical movement.
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What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?The Demilich isn't paralyzed.
Specifically, the Demilich has a dex score other then zero.
How about a regular old skeleton? One with an Int score of "-". Can they fly?
Flight is a dex based skill, so it is physical. Not only that, but AC check penalty applies so it is strongly inferred that it requires a fair amount of movement, as opposed to wiggling a pinkey finger or something. As the fly spell specifically calls out that medium and heavy armor users move slower, this is further proof that flying is physical movement.
But really, fly is a dex based skill. There is really nothing more to discuss unless anyone can point to something in the spell text that specifically says it is no longer a dex based skill.
Can you walk when paralyzed? No.
Can you swim when paralyzed? No.
Can you burrow when paralyzed? No.
Can you fly when paralyzed? Apparently, it depends. If you're using wings, no. If you're using a spell - it's not clear.
To me, the RAI is clear - the answer is "no." What the result of that is, I'm not sure. Does it end the spell? Suspend it? That's why I am interested in the FAQ request on the other thread.
This thread - well, it's entertaining I guess, but not a Rules thread.
Let me ask you. Why are Bards able to use charisma in place of dexterity to fly?
A trait that allows wisdom in place of dexterity to fly.
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What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?The Demilich isn't paralyzed.the demilich has nothing to move. its a floating head. so by your ruleing that magical flight is a physical based effect the demilich as a creature wouldn't work. as would multiple other creatures based around magical flight.
casting paralyze on it wouldn't stop it from doing anything but talking.
Actually, I think the point is, your example is horrible and doesn't work. The demilich is immune.
Hold undead specifically states the undead is immobile. And so, magical flight or not, held in place similar to the effect of Hold Person on a living creature, which should be some more food for thought... But you will probably dismiss that as well.
What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?The Demilich isn't paralyzed.Specifically, the Demilich has a dex score other then zero.
How about a regular old skeleton? One with an Int score of "-". Can they fly?
Flight is a dex based skill, so it is physical. Not only that, but AC check penalty applies so it is strongly inferred that it requires a fair amount of movement, as opposed to wiggling a pinkey finger or something. As the fly spell specifically calls out that medium and heavy armor users move slower, this is further proof that flying is physical movement.
But really, fly is a dex based skill. There is really nothing more to discuss unless anyone can point to something in the spell text that specifically says it is no longer a dex based skill.
*sigh*
If control of the Fly spell isn't mental, what is it?
How does the Demilich meet the requirements to control it?
It's a floating skull.
What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?The Demilich isn't paralyzed.the demilich has nothing to move. its a floating head. so by your ruleing that magical flight is a physical based effect the demilich as a creature wouldn't work. as would multiple other creatures based around magical flight.
casting paralyze on it wouldn't stop it from doing anything but talking.
LOL
What?? Where do I say the Demilich can't fly?
alexd1976 wanted to know what the difference was in his example. Not being paralyzed was an obvious one. Now a paralyzed Demilich and a paralyzed Caster, there we have a question on equal footing. "Neither would be able to control their movement" would be my ruling.
Really, you and alexd1976 are very funny, the way you argue things.
What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?The Demilich isn't paralyzed.the demilich has nothing to move. its a floating head. so by your ruleing that magical flight is a physical based effect the demilich as a creature wouldn't work. as would multiple other creatures based around magical flight.
casting paralyze on it wouldn't stop it from doing anything but talking.
Nope. By the rules of the game, the demilich has natural flight, not magical flight granted by a spell (a fly speed of 30 with perfect maneuverability). RAW if the demilich is paralyzed it cannot move and stays in place floating in the space where it was paralyzed. The same as any other creature that flies without wings.
EDIT: IF. Of course, the demilich won't be paralyzed because it is immune.
What is the difference between a Demilich casting it and a Paralyzed caster using it?The Demilich isn't paralyzed.Specifically, the Demilich has a dex score other then zero.
How about a regular old skeleton? One with an Int score of "-". Can they fly?
Flight is a dex based skill, so it is physical. Not only that, but AC check penalty applies so it is strongly inferred that it requires a fair amount of movement, as opposed to wiggling a pinkey finger or something. As the fly spell specifically calls out that medium and heavy armor users move slower, this is further proof that flying is physical movement.
But really, fly is a dex based skill. There is really nothing more to discuss unless anyone can point to something in the spell text that specifically says it is no longer a dex based skill.
*sigh*
If control of the Fly spell isn't mental, what is it?
How does the Demilich meet the requirements to control it?
It's a floating skull.
Which doesn't use the Fly spell... For what it is worth.
Apple meet Orange.