El cuervo. Your stance isn't flawless. There are holes on both sides of the debate, you need to atleast accept that.
Having 0 strength can stop fly, due to overencumbrance.
You have yet to show in the rules enough evidence that magical flight is still a purely physical act. If you can not then the debate is still valid.
El cuervo. Your stance isn't flawless. There are holes on both sides of the debate, you need to atleast accept that.
Having 0 strength can stop fly, due to overencumbrance.
You have yet to show in the rules enough evidence that magical flight is still a purely physical act. If you can not then the debate is still valid.
I think we are assuming a naked caster. ;)
Also, this thread isn't intended as a debate about whether or not you can do it, but instead to determine the penalties that accrue assuming you CAN do it.
El cuervo. Your stance isn't flawless. There are holes on both sides of the debate, you need to atleast accept that.
Having 0 strength can stop fly, due to overencumbrance.
You have yet to show in the rules enough evidence that magical flight is still a purely physical act. If you can not then the debate is still valid.
Of course it's not purely physical, it requires a magical spell to fly without natural means (such as wings).
However, the rules for paralysis are very clear: you cannot move or act. Move and act are rules terms, not fluff descriptors. Flying is an act that allows you to move that requires a dexterity-based skill check, implying that it is a physical action and not one of pure mental concentration. Therefore, you cannot fly, because you cannot move or act.
El cuervo. Your stance isn't flawless. There are holes on both sides of the debate, you need to atleast accept that.
Having 0 strength can stop fly, due to overencumbrance.
You have yet to show in the rules enough evidence that magical flight is still a purely physical act. If you can not then the debate is still valid.
I think we are assuming a naked caster. ;)
Also, this thread isn't intended as a debate about whether or not you can do it, but instead to determine the penalties that accrue assuming you CAN do it.
I already stated the penalties. If you ignore all of the rules that don't allow this (and you shouldn't because this is the rules questions forum, not the house rules forum), then you would just take a -5 penalty on your fly checks from your dex being 0.
I already stated the penalties. If you ignore all of the rules that don't allow this (and you shouldn't because this is the rules questions forum, not the house rules forum), then you would just take a -5 penalty on your fly checks from your dex being 0.El cuervo. Your stance isn't flawless. There are holes on both sides of the debate, you need to atleast accept that.
Having 0 strength can stop fly, due to overencumbrance.
You have yet to show in the rules enough evidence that magical flight is still a purely physical act. If you can not then the debate is still valid.
I think we are assuming a naked caster. ;)
Also, this thread isn't intended as a debate about whether or not you can do it, but instead to determine the penalties that accrue assuming you CAN do it.
You are continuing to ignore the actual purpose of this thread.
We are assuming that Fly IS controlled mentally, and that the spell is still in effect despite STR 0 (naked caster).
Your assessment of having the penalties just be a -5 to DEX related things is incomplete, at best.
STR 0
Helpless
+4 to be hit (from helpless)
DEX 0
No actions other than mental (this is listed right in the text of paralysis, please don't ignore it)
Can be sneak attacked
Is vulnerable to coup de grace
That is the list. That is what the penalties are, assuming Fly is still in effect and the caster isn't encumbered. (and also that "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. " means that you control it mentally, by concentrating on it. Like it says.)
Despite my earlier comments, you CAN in fact make Fly (skill) checks, maybe...
Some would think a DEX of 0 precludes this and/or not being able to take physical actions precludes this.
If Fly (spell) is mentally controlled, it is feasible that you can still roll Fly (skill) checks, albeit at a -5.
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I already stated the penalties. If you ignore all of the rules that don't allow this (and you shouldn't because this is the rules questions forum, not the house rules forum), then you would just take a -5 penalty on your fly checks from your dex being 0.El cuervo. Your stance isn't flawless. There are holes on both sides of the debate, you need to atleast accept that.
Having 0 strength can stop fly, due to overencumbrance.
You have yet to show in the rules enough evidence that magical flight is still a purely physical act. If you can not then the debate is still valid.
I think we are assuming a naked caster. ;)
Also, this thread isn't intended as a debate about whether or not you can do it, but instead to determine the penalties that accrue assuming you CAN do it.
You are continuing to ignore the actual purpose of this thread.
We are assuming that Fly IS controlled mentally, and that the spell is still in effect despite STR 0 (naked caster).
Your assessment of having the penalties just be a -5 to DEX related things is incomplete, at best.
STR 0
Helpless
+4 to be hit (from helpless)
DEX 0
No actions other than mental (this is listed right in the text of paralysis, please don't ignore it)
Can be sneak attacked
Is vulnerable to coup de graceThat is the list. That is what the penalties are, assuming Fly is still in effect and the caster isn't encumbered. (and also that "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. " means that you control it mentally, by concentrating on it. Like it says.)
Despite my earlier comments, you CAN in fact make Fly (skill) checks, maybe...
Some would think a DEX of 0 precludes this and/or not being able to take physical actions precludes this.
If Fly (spell) is mentally controlled, it is feasible that you can still roll Fly (skill) checks, albeit at a -5.
You are continuing to ignore the actual purpose of the Rules Questions forum. This forum is for discussing rules as written. There is no written rule that allows you to fly when you are paralyzed. Please take the conversation to the House Rules forum where it belongs.
You do not require the Fly skill to use the spell, why do people keep saying that?Why does the spell say "The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level"?
If the spell does not use the Fly(Dex) skill why does it grant you a skill bonus in that dexterity skill? If Fly was a purely mental spell then a dexterity skill would be somewhat superfluous as dexterity is a physical attribute.
It grants you a bonus to the skill because the spell says so.
You do NOT have to roll on the skill to use the spell.
The spell can create situations where you are required to roll.
Lets say you want to go zooming on a downward angle down a tight staircase in a castle. Fly skill check.
Going in a straight line while outside? You don't need to roll.
It's right there in the skill. You don't roll every time you move while flying.
Trying to argue that a skill determines how a spell works is like trying to argue that a students level of education determines a teachers qualifications.
It's backwards.
You need to be able to fly to use the skill.
You do NOT need the skill to be able to fly.
...I already stated the penalties. If you ignore all of the rules that don't allow this (and you shouldn't because this is the rules questions forum, not the house rules forum), then you would just take a -5 penalty on your fly checks from your dex being 0.El cuervo. Your stance isn't flawless. There are holes on both sides of the debate, you need to atleast accept that.
Having 0 strength can stop fly, due to overencumbrance.
You have yet to show in the rules enough evidence that magical flight is still a purely physical act. If you can not then the debate is still valid.
I think we are assuming a naked caster. ;)
Also, this thread isn't intended as a debate about whether or not you can do it, but instead to determine the penalties that accrue assuming you CAN do it.
You are continuing to ignore the actual purpose of this thread.
We are assuming that Fly IS controlled mentally, and that the spell is still in effect despite STR 0 (naked caster).
Your assessment of having the penalties just be a -5 to DEX related things is incomplete, at best.
STR 0
Helpless
+4 to be hit (from helpless)
DEX 0
No actions other than mental (this is listed right in the text of paralysis, please don't ignore it)
Can be sneak attacked
Is vulnerable to coup de graceThat is the list. That is what the penalties are, assuming Fly is still in effect and the caster isn't encumbered. (and also that "Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. " means that you control it mentally, by concentrating on it. Like it says.)
Despite my earlier comments, you CAN in fact make Fly (skill) checks, maybe...
Some would think a DEX of 0 precludes this and/or not being able to take physical actions precludes this.
If Fly (spell) is mentally controlled, it is feasible that you can still roll Fly (skill) checks,
The fact that you consider this a house rule does not make it so.
There is evidence on either side of this, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. That's why these forums are here.
This entire thread was created based on the assumption that it works.
If you want to debate that, go to another thread.
You do not require the Fly skill to use the spell, why do people keep saying that?Why does the spell say "The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level"?
If the spell does not use the Fly(Dex) skill why does it grant you a skill bonus in that dexterity skill? If Fly was a purely mental spell then a dexterity skill would be somewhat superfluous as dexterity is a physical attribute.
It grants you a bonus to the skill because the spell says so.
You do NOT have to roll on the skill to use the spell.
The spell can create situations where you are required to roll.
Lets say you want to go zooming on a downward angle down a tight staircase in a castle. Fly skill check.
Going in a straight line while outside? You don't need to roll.
It's right there in the skill. You don't roll every time you move while flying.
Trying to argue that a skill determines how a spell works is like trying to argue that a students level of education determines a teachers qualifications.
It's backwards.
You need to be able to fly to use the skill.
You do NOT need the skill to be able to fly.The question is whether the Fly spell is purely mental or if it requires physical action. If it is the former then it would work when you are paralyzed, if it is the latter then it would not.
That is why I referred to the Fly(Dex) skill mentioned in the spell description. This implies physical action as dexterity (with its dependent skills) is a physical not mental attribute.
The creator of this thread assumed a few things, and asked the question:
Assuming this works, what penalties accrue? (paraphrasing here)-I understand you don't agree with the idea that you can even fly while paralyzed, and that's fine, but don't ignore the original question.
If we assume you can't use the Fly skill, that DOES NOT mean you can't use the Fly spell!
You only need to use the Fly skill if you make sharp turns/hover/perform difficult maneuvers.
A skill doesn't determine how a spell works, the spell determines how a spell works.
If you are in a situation calling for a Fly skill check, and are paralyzed, you automatically fail it.
It doesn't dispel the Fly spell.
You have your answer as to what penalties would apply. There is no need to carry on this conversation any further.
Jeven, you are ignoring the fact that you can Fly without ever rolling once on the skill.
If the Fly skill was required to use the spell, it would say so.
The spell talks about requiring concentration.
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Jeven, you are ignoring the fact that you can Fly without ever rolling once on the skill.
If the Fly skill was required to use the spell, it would say so.
The spell talks about requiring concentration.
The Fly skill is not required because it is an untrained skill. You still need to make Fly checks to perform certain actions. There is a limit to what you can do with Fly without making a skill check, just like Ride. Since both are Dex based, it is assumed that a physical action is required to Fly. You seem to think it's purely mental until you need to make a check.
It isn't. It's akin to taking 10 on your fly checks because the DC is low enough that it doesn't matter. You're still performing the physical, dexterity-based act.
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You do not require the Fly skill to use the spell, why do people keep saying that?Why does the spell say "The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level"?
If the spell does not use the Fly(Dex) skill why does it grant you a skill bonus in that dexterity skill? If Fly was a purely mental spell then a dexterity skill would be somewhat superfluous as dexterity is a physical attribute.
It grants you a bonus to the skill because the spell says so.
You do NOT have to roll on the skill to use the spell.
The spell can create situations where you are required to roll.
Lets say you want to go zooming on a downward angle down a tight staircase in a castle. Fly skill check.
Going in a straight line while outside? You don't need to roll.
It's right there in the skill. You don't roll every time you move while flying.
Trying to argue that a skill determines how a spell works is like trying to argue that a students level of education determines a teachers qualifications.
It's backwards.
You need to be able to fly to use the skill.
You do NOT need the skill to be able to fly.The question is whether the Fly spell is purely mental or if it requires physical action. If it is the former then it would work when you are paralyzed, if it is the latter then it would not.
That is why I referred to the Fly(Dex) skill mentioned in the spell description. This implies physical action as dexterity (with its dependent skills) is a physical not mental attribute.
Your forgetting the third option. Being both a mental and physical assited act.
Obviously using the fly spell normally, there is nothing you do with your muscles that make and continue your motion in flight. Therefore movement is dependent on the mental control of the active spell. However you are still subject to wind. Slight movements of the hands at high speeds affect direction. Large movements can assist in tight turns hence a fly check, incorrectly done can cause a problem.
Jeven, you are ignoring the fact that you can Fly without ever rolling once on the skill.
If the Fly skill was required to use the spell, it would say so.
The spell talks about requiring concentration.
The Fly skill is not required because it is an untrained skill. You still need to make Fly checks to perform certain actions. There is a limit to what you can do with Fly without making a skill check, just like Ride. Since both are Dex based, it is assumed that a physical action is required to Fly. You seem to think it's purely mental until you need to make a check.
It isn't. It's akin to taking 10 on your fly checks because the DC is low enough that it doesn't matter. You're still performing the physical, dexterity-based act.
There are rules on taking 10.
When a roll is called for, you can take 10.
You don't need to roll for Fly. You MAY be put in a situation...
oh forget it.
Go read the original post please.
You can do it but you wind up looking like this
More seriously, you have a dex of 0 which is going to drop your fly score
However, the rules for paralysis are very clear: you cannot move or act. Move and act are rules terms, not fluff descriptors. Flying is an act that allows you to move that requires a dexterity-based skill check, implying that it is a physical action and not one of pure mental concentration. Therefore, you cannot fly, because you cannot move or act.
Where are 'move' and 'act' defined? I'm pretty sure there are dozens of places in the rulebook where 'move' is used in other contexts, such as 'move action'.
And flying, as mentioned elsewhere, does not require dexterity-based skill checks; steering sharply and hovering do, but moving in a straight line does not.
This thread is based on the following assumptions:
That when the paralysis rules refer to movement, it means voluntary physical movement of your limbs, using your muscles.
That magical flight is a purely mental action - like a psychic levitating an object with his brain - and as such can be done while paralysed.
These assumptions are highly dubious, but trying to disprove them is a fool's errand.
Anyway, since the RAW answer is that you can't if you're carrying anything, that means it's worthless 99.99% of the time even if the GM allows it. Nobody's going to go into a dungeon naked just so they'll be able to escape if they get paralysed.
Flying is an act that allows you to move that requires a dexterity-based skill check, implying that it is a physical action and not one of pure mental concentration.
Because flight is usually gained through means of wings going flippity flap. That doesn't mean that it applies in all cases, like a behol... eye stalker thingy or magical flight.
Flying is an act that allows you to move that requires a dexterity-based skill check, implying that it is a physical action and not one of pure mental concentration.
Because flight is usually gained through means of wings going flippity flap. That doesn't mean that it applies in all cases, like a behol... eye stalker thingy
Once again, this is not correct.
You don't need to roll the Fly skill when using Fly spell.
You MIGHT need to, if you CHOOSE to do an action that requires it, but it does not say anywhere that you are obliged to use the skill at all if you just go at half speed and keep your turns gentle.
Once again, you are not obligated to roll Fly skill checks.
You can choose to put yourself in a situation requiring them, but it isn't a base part of the spell.
Kinda like casting fireball, you can CHOOSE to target your friends, but you can also choose to target enemies. Isn't free will great?
In any case, assumptions were made during the original post, and people keep ignoring them... there is another thread debating whether or not this works, I suggest the argumentative types go there.
Ok I don't have time to do my full post right now, so I will list some things in as unbiased a manner as possible and will be back to post my actual thoughts after.
1) The text for the spell burrow and fly are exactly the same. "The subject can [insert movement type here] at a speed of [speed] feet ([armor clause]). [Additional restraints based on movement type]. Using [spell] only requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally." If we only consider RAW then everything that applies to flying applies to burrowing.
2) If we consider the fly spell like a mount (i.e. you are not moving, the mount is moving you) and we rule that you can fly as long as you do not make fly checks, can you also direct a mount as long as you do not make ride checks?
3) a person fairly early in the thread make the claim that paralyzation is a mental effect. He didn't explain himself at all, but as I was looking I realized he was talking about "hold person" which is an enchantment (compulsion) spell. In that one instance where it is the mental command not to move, is there any difference in effect?
Ok I don't have time to do my full post right now, so I will list some things in as unbiased a manner as possible and will be back to post my actual thoughts after.
1) The text for the spell burrow and fly are exactly the same. "The subject can [insert movement type here] at a speed of [speed] feet ([armor clause]). [Additional restraints based on movement type]. Using [spell] only requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally." If we only consider RAW then everything that applies to flying applies to burrowing.
2) If we consider the fly spell like a mount (i.e. you are not moving, the mount is moving you) and we rule that you can fly as long as you do not make fly checks, can you also direct a mount as long as you do not make ride checks?
3) a person fairly early in the thread make the claim that paralyzation is a mental effect. He didn't explain himself at all, but as I was looking I realized he was talking about "hold person" which is an enchantment (compulsion) spell. In that one instance where it is the mental command not to move, is there any difference in effect?
All very good points, I highly recommend you bring them over to the thread discussing whether or not you can Fly (spell) while paralyzed.
You have clearly done your homework.
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Wait a second, I have seen several times the statement "when paralyzed your strength drop to 0".
Someone can cite a rule saying that?
Paralysis
Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. Paralysis from poison is discussed in the Afflictions section.
A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components.
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.
The description of the paralyzed condition say that you can't move, but it don't say anywhere that your strength drop to 0.
What it actually say it very different: "Not even friends can move his limbs." If the strength of the paralyzed creature was 0 his limbs would be like overcooked spaghetti, wile the rules say that is impossible to move them. That speak of locked muscle exercising all the creature strength to keep him frozen, not of not having any strength at all.Having 0 strength has a specific effect in the rules:
A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious.
and paralysis has't that effect.
You're looking at the special ability "Paralysis" in the glossary.
The "A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and..." phrase in under the "Paralyzed" condition in the glossary.
Not very well organized, these rules.
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You're looking at the special ability "Paralysis" in the glossary.
The "A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and..." phrase in under the "Paralyzed" condition in the glossary.
Not very well organized, these rules.
Then problem solved, the creature is unconscious and can't control anything at all :P
Now we can bicker on what is a "effective score".
I am curious to see how "Not even friends can move his limbs." combine with "has [an] effective ... Strength scores of 0".
You're looking at the special ability "Paralysis" in the glossary.
The "A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and..." phrase in under the "Paralyzed" condition in the glossary.
Not very well organized, these rules.
Then problem solved, the creature is unconscious and can't control anything at all :P
Now we can bicker on what is a "effective score".
Incorrect.
"A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions."
The assertion of the original poster is that the person affected by paralysis is conscious (they can take purely mental actions)-and that this is sufficient to control the Fly spell.
If you want to argue whether or not this situation could happen, go here
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I'm of the opinion that a paralyzed creature that is under the effects of a fly spell can still fly around (since a paralyzed creature "can take purely mental actions" and "using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking").
The problem is "only as much concentration" tells you how much concentration is required to use the spell. For example, a good example of something that requires only as much concentration as walking... WALKING! Just because something requires X amount of one thing, does not mean it doesn't also require X amount of another thing.
When you are flying, you are using a dex based (physical) skill. If you are incapable of any physical activity beyond life support, you can't use physical skills of any kind. It doesn't matter if you have to make checks or not, you just can't use the skill at all.
This is common sense, no FAQ required.
I'm of the opinion that a paralyzed creature that is under the effects of a fly spell can still fly around (since a paralyzed creature "can take purely mental actions" and "using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking").The problem is "only as much concentration" tells you how much concentration is required to use the spell. For example, a good example of something that requires only as much concentration as walking... WALKING! Just because something requires X amount of one thing, does not mean it doesn't also require X amount of another thing.
When you are flying, you are using a dex based (physical) skill. If you are incapable of any physical activity beyond life support, you can't use physical skills of any kind. It doesn't matter if you have to make checks or not, you just can't use the skill at all.
This is common sense, no FAQ required.
I've been saying this all along. It's no use. Prepare yourself for a number of posts stipulating that this thread isn't to discuss whether you can fly or not, but rather is to determine that if you could fly while paralyzed, what penalties you would suffer. Of course it's a moot point since you simply can't fly, never mind that this is the Rules Questions forum...
You're looking at the special ability "Paralysis" in the glossary.
The "A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and..." phrase in under the "Paralyzed" condition in the glossary.
Not very well organized, these rules.
Then problem solved, the creature is unconscious and can't control anything at all :P
Now we can bicker on what is a "effective score".
I am curious to see how "Not even friends can move his limbs." combine with "has [an] effective ... Strength scores of 0".
Thanks for your input, Diego. It's a pleasure to read your thoughtful, polite, and good-humoured comments.
I've noticed, like you, that several people seem to be treating the text of the paralyzed condition as though it says a paralyzed character's Strength and Dexterity scores are set to 0. It doesn't, of course - and, as you point out, that would be incompatible with other parts of the paralyzed condition.
Earlier on, I gave my interpretation of what "effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0" means - it's stating that because a character is paralyzed, and thus unable to move, that character's Strength and Dexterity can't be used actively or reactively. Being paralyzed doesn't make you weak or clumsy - it just means you can't move your limbs. It's nonsensical, to me, to suggest that your encumbrance would change due to paralysis.
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It's nonsensical, to me, to suggest that your encumbrance would change due to paralysis.
And from real-world experience, working with paraplegic people, I would argue the exact opposite. There's very little that changes how much weight you can carry around as drastically as being completely paralyzed.
I have a siled Dimension door memorized. Being "frozen in place and unable to move" stop me from casting it and teleporting away?That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
That's a much more gray area, and I can see arguments either way. However, for me that discussion is different in that the question is "is casting Dimension Door moving?", and that answer can very well be different from "is taking a "move" move action moving?".
The reason I think they are different is because paralyzation states that you are unable to move _or act_, and then says you may take purely mental _actions_. This seems to me to make an exception to the "act" part, and not inherently to the move part. Consider if it was another topic: "You can't have ice cream or pie. Well, you can have pie if there's no chocolate in it." - this wouldn't imply they you can have ice cream, even if there's no chocolate in it.
Magic moving you around (Teleport, Fly, Dimension Door etc) should not be affected by paralysis.
How about Boots of Speed? If Fly moves you around, does Boots of Speed so too?
It requires as much concentration as walking.
That is the ONLY mention of anything resembling how it is controlled.
It's not a statement of how it's controlled. It's a statement about how much concentration is required.
There is nothing in the spell to control, just like there's nothing in Bull's Strength to control, or Elemental Body. The only measure of control you have over it is that it's a dismissable spell.
When you're working with the assumption that moving around using the Fly spell is purely a mental exercise, you're ignoring the fact that this ability to fly is governed by the exact same physical limitations as those for simply walking.
You can't walk when you're carrying too heavy a load. You can't fly using Fly while you're carrying too heavy a load. The cut-off points and consequences are the same for both situations. The Fly spell won't let you move yourself around "telekinetically" while your body has stuff dangling from it that you're unable to carry. That's right there in the text of the spell, no arguing about it.
Surely that has to imply that controlling the flight is not just a mental action.
When you're working with the assumption that moving around using the Fly spell is purely a mental exercise, you're ignoring the fact that this ability to fly is governed by the exact same physical limitations as those for simply walking.
You can't walk when you're carrying too heavy a load. You can't fly using Fly while you're carrying too heavy a load. The cut-off points and consequences are the same for both situations. The Fly spell won't let you move yourself around "telekinetically" while your body has stuff dangling from it that you're unable to carry. That's right there in the text of the spell, no arguing about it.
Surely that has to imply that controlling the flight is not just a mental action.
.. I'm seeing NO connection there at all between those ideas.
You walk because you tell your leg to move and your leg moves you. You fly because.... well your legs not really that involved is it?
You see no connection even when the Fly spell tells you this: "it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."?
The spell makes the connection. Flying is only possible under the same encumbrance related circumstances as walking. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.
You see no connection even when the Fly spell tells you this: "it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."?
The spell makes the connection. Flying is only possible under the same encumbrance related circumstances as walking. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.
Walking max load counts armor weight.
Fly Spell max load does not counts armor weight.You think these are the same? I don't. :-)
Also, for the fly spell to change the weight limit after the spell is cast would have to have some text allowing it to do so. Say the poor wizard can carry 70 pounds and casts the fly spell. The spell is now geared to carrying 70 pounds. Later, the wizard's capacity is dropped. Why does this affect the spell? The spell is not being continually cast. The spell is not continually checking the wizards capacity. It is already cast and had its parameters set.
/cevah
You see no connection even when the Fly spell tells you this: "it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."?
The spell makes the connection. Flying is only possible under the same encumbrance related circumstances as walking. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.
Walking max load counts armor weight.
Fly Spell max load does not counts armor weight.You think these are the same? I don't. :-)
Also, for the fly spell to change the weight limit after the spell is cast would have to have some text allowing it to do so. Say the poor wizard can carry 70 pounds and casts the fly spell. The spell is now geared to carrying 70 pounds. Later, the wizard's capacity is dropped. Why does this affect the spell? The spell is not being continually cast. The spell is not continually checking the wizards capacity. It is already cast and had its parameters set.
/cevah
It isn't a parameter of the spell. It's a limitation of what you can do while under the influence of the spell.
It isn't a parameter of the spell. It's a limitation of what you can do while under the influence of the spell.Also, for the fly spell to change the weight limit after the spell is cast would have to have some text allowing it to do so. Say the poor wizard can carry 70 pounds and casts the fly spell. The spell is now geared to carrying 70 pounds. Later, the wizard's capacity is dropped. Why does this affect the spell? The spell is not being continually cast. The spell is not continually checking the wizards capacity. It is already cast and had its parameters set.
/cevah
You call it a limitation, I call it a parameter. Either way, why does it change after the magic is cast? Neither Fly nor Hold Person (for example) say anything about changing existing spells on someone, so they don't.
Show me rules text that states a spell changes after it is cast in this way. Many stop because the object they affect suddenly stops being qualified as a target, but unless you become an object, Fly still affects you.
/cevah
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Sure, Fly will still affect you. It won't let you fly when you're over-encumbered though. The spell doesn't change. The ability it grants will do the same thing at every moment of its duration: function according to the subject's current weight allowance.
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears. The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level.
The fly spell is not changing according to the current weight allowance. There is no text to support that. Therefore it does not change.
The flier cannot carry weight and so is overloaded and cannot move normally due to encumbrance.* The spell still supports his weight.
/cevah
*I do not think the effective zero strength due to paralyze/helpless means your max load changes. But for the sake of this argument, I will assume it does change the max load.
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I love it when someone posts a quote supporting the opposite of what they say it supports.
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You're looking at the special ability "Paralysis" in the glossary.
The "A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and..." phrase in under the "Paralyzed" condition in the glossary.
Not very well organized, these rules.
Then problem solved, the creature is unconscious and can't control anything at all :P
Now we can bicker on what is a "effective score".
Incorrect.
"A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions."
The assertion of the original poster is that the person affected by paralysis is conscious (they can take purely mental actions)-and that this is sufficient to control the Fly spell.
If you want to argue whether or not this situation could happen, go here
There is this little problem:
A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious.
Sp, a "effective score" of 0 is the same of a score of 0?
There is this little problem:
A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious.Sp, a "effective score" of 0 is the same of a score of 0?
An effective score of 0 implies to me that you have to deal with all the consequences of a score of 0, without actually having a score of 0.
Paralysis specifically calls out the ability to take mental actions, which would require consciousness. I don't see a problem there. Effects can dictate exceptions to what they thrust upon their targets. That happens in the rules all the time. (Look at the many "Fatigue" inducing powers that say you can't use them to stack upon to induce "Exhaustion". Or the many "Shaken" inducing powers that can't be built upon to induce worse fear conditions.)
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I have a siled Dimension door memorized. Being "frozen in place and unable to move" stop me from casting it and teleporting away?That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
That's a much more gray area, and I can see arguments either way. However, for me that discussion is different in that the question is "is casting Dimension Door moving?", and that answer can very well be different from "is taking a "move" move action moving?".
The reason I think they are different is because paralyzation states that you are unable to move _or act_, and then says you may take purely mental _actions_. This seems to me to make an exception to the "act" part, and not inherently to the move part. Consider if it was another topic: "You can't have ice cream or pie. Well, you can have pie if there's no chocolate in it." - this wouldn't imply they you can have ice cream, even if there's no chocolate in it.
Let's look levitate
Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish. A creature must be willing to be levitated, and an object must be unattended or possessed by a willing creature. You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a move action. You cannot move the recipient horizontally, but the recipient could clamber along the face of a cliff, for example, or push against a ceiling to move laterally (generally at half its base land speed).
If you are paralyzed, you can move with lecitate?
If someone has cast levitate on you, he can move you?and
If you are paralyzed someone can pick you up and transport you?
You see no connection even when the Fly spell tells you this: "it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."?
The spell makes the connection. Flying is only possible under the same encumbrance related circumstances as walking. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.
How you get from there to the idea that its not merely a mental action is the gnome underwear profit portion of events.
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Why would a mental action have to take your encumbrance into account? If the magic is strong enough to let you fly at full strength, why would it suddenly fail if your body becomes less strong? I can see only one explanation: you need to use that body to reap the benefits of the spell.
I myself find it wholly absurd and quite astonishing how people can take the notion that flying by means of the Fly spell is a mental activity from the text of that spell. There's not the slightest hint of that in there. Nothing at all.