What penalties for a paralyzed creature using a fly spell?


Rules Questions

51 to 100 of 573 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

Callum wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I would apply the penalties as written.

It explicitly states they can't move or act, has DEX and STR of 0.
Being able to take 'purely mental actions' seems to override the "can't move or act" limitation...

So they can move using Fly, and take 'purely mental actions' but still don't have DEX or STR score, essentially.

Thanks, alexd, for actually answering my original question! (And also for a robust defence of my position that you can fly while paralyzed - I'd tried to word my question to preclude starting a discussion about that.) I'm inclined to agree with you, although applying a Dex of 0 seems a little harsh, as I feel that the creature could "fly" out of the way of attacks to some extent - and shouldn't have exactly the same penalties as non-flying paralyzed creature. Perhaps I'll keep the Dex of 0 but give a +2 circumstance bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

That's up to you if you are the GM. Don't forget though, they have to maintain at least half speed to avoid making Fly checks. No hovering.


What seems to be intended is that a paralysed target would stay still in place, regardless of whatever type of movement.

This doesn't follow RAW, but I believe the "floats in place" or "descends as if feather falling" would be the most appropriate choices.

I don't have RAW to back me up, but that seems to mesh best with the game world. It's honestly most likely the devs never even considered something like this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

So here is how I would rule....

Paralysis drops Strength and Dex to 0 (-5) and makes them helpless (as per Paralysis the status). Since they are also Helpless they receive all those penalties also, people get a +4 to melee attacks, they can be sneaked and they can be coup de grace if some one can get to them.

They could continue fly, since it is a spell and requires concentration, but they would still have to make Fly checks. Since the Fly spell still required the Fly Skill, and the Fly Skill uses Dex and has armor check penalties it implies that physical movement is required.

I think that makes sense to me at least :)


Callum wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

I would apply the penalties as written.

It explicitly states they can't move or act, has DEX and STR of 0.
Being able to take 'purely mental actions' seems to override the "can't move or act" limitation...

So they can move using Fly, and take 'purely mental actions' but still don't have DEX or STR score, essentially.

Thanks, alexd, for actually answering my original question! (And also for a robust defence of my position that you can fly while paralyzed - I'd tried to word my question to preclude starting a discussion about that.) I'm inclined to agree with you, although applying a Dex of 0 seems a little harsh, as I feel that the creature could "fly" out of the way of attacks to some extent - and shouldn't have exactly the same penalties as non-flying paralyzed creature. Perhaps I'll keep the Dex of 0 but give a +2 circumstance bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

You dont need to add that bonus because the spell gives a bonus equal to half your level.


Slamy Mcbiteo wrote:

So here is how I would rule....

Paralysis drops Strength and Dex to 0 (-5) and makes them helpless (as per Paralysis the status). Since they are also Helpless they receive all those penalties also, people get a +4 to melee attacks, they can be sneaked and they can be coup de grace if some one can get to them.

They could continue fly, since it is a spell and requires concentration, but they would still have to make Fly checks. Since the Fly spell still required the Fly Skill, and the Fly Skill uses Dex and has armor check penalties it implies that physical movement is required.

I think that makes sense to me at least :)

Can't make Fly checks with a DEX of 0, but with the Fly spell, as long as you keep moving at half or greater speed, you don't need to make checks.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

What seems to be intended is that a paralysed target would stay still in place, regardless of whatever type of movement.

This doesn't follow RAW, but I believe the "floats in place" or "descends as if feather falling" would be the most appropriate choices.

I don't have RAW to back me up, but that seems to mesh best with the game world. It's honestly most likely the devs never even considered something like this.

The Fly spell is what is causing the character to move, so the paralysis only does what is listed.

You don't need to utter vocal or somatic commands to USE Fly, so unless dispelled, it would continue to function as written.

With a DEX of 0 though, you wouldn't be able to make Fly (skill) checks, so you would have to continue moving at half or greater speed.

All written conditions have been applied, and all conditions met.

If you want to argue that paralyze prevents you from being moved, then you are also saying it makes you immune to being bullrushed or thrown.


Also if you are paralyzed, the horse your on absolutely can not move, because that would cause movement.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Also if you are paralyzed, the horse your on absolutely can not move, because that would cause movement.

There are many examples.

Not being able to move means not being able to move under your own power or wiggle your bits. It does not anchor you in space, that is just silly, especially since it is a condition and NOT a magical effect (though it can be caused by magic).

If being paralyzed anchored you in space, from other peoples perspectives, you would fire off up into the sky as the planet moved away from you (or be crushed into chunky salsa as it moved through you).


The movement paralyze is talking about, is the movement of limbs. It is rediculous to think that it requires physical movement to fly by something that is controlled by a spell which is controlled by ones mind.


alexd1976 wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Also if you are paralyzed, the horse your on absolutely can not move, because that would cause movement.

There are many examples.

Not being able to move means not being able to move under your own power or wiggle your bits. It does not anchor you in space, that is just silly, especially since it is a condition and NOT a magical effect (though it can be caused by magic).

If being paralyzed anchored you in space, from other peoples perspectives, you would fire off up into the sky as the planet moved away from you (or be crushed into chunky salsa as it moved through you).

I agree, i'm an old fart who uses sarcasm blandly.


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
Also if you are paralyzed, the horse your on absolutely can not move, because that would cause movement.

There are many examples.

Not being able to move means not being able to move under your own power or wiggle your bits. It does not anchor you in space, that is just silly, especially since it is a condition and NOT a magical effect (though it can be caused by magic).

If being paralyzed anchored you in space, from other peoples perspectives, you would fire off up into the sky as the planet moved away from you (or be crushed into chunky salsa as it moved through you).

I agree, i'm an old fart who uses sarcasm blandly.

Oh I got it, I was just adding to your example. Sure would be funny to see that happen in game... :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Very few things are ridiculous to everyone.

It requires Dex to fly well, even by magic, like the way Superman angles his body to steer. So it's reasonable to assume you're not controlled entirely by your mind but using your body to fly with. It's also reasonable to assume the opposite. (Although then you have to suffer the -5 penalty to Dex checks / inability to roll Dex checks, depending on whose rules you're using.)


It's really simple: You can't, by RAW, move while paralyzed. Flying or not. Swimming or not. Burrowing or not.

Quote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but [b]can take purely mental actions[b]. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

As made clear in the first bolded sentence, paralyzation bans you both from moving and acting. The second bolded section just says that you can take purely mental actions, but does not say that you can move.

Essentially, you can take mental actions, but you cannot move, so casting a component-less spell works, but anything that involves moving is straight out. One could even argue that something like a silent Dimension Door would be useless as you are unable to move.

If that wasn't enough, paralyzation gives you a dex of 0 and the dex section specifies further that you cannot move while having a 0.

Now, that is the relevant part to determine this, but in addition to this, there is also nothing in the Fly spell which states that you don't have to physically move. It does not say that you move by thinking about it. It just says "using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" - that means that it does not require more concentration than walking. It does not mean that you move by concentrating. It is to separate from spells like, say, levitate, where moving up to 20ft vertically is a specific separate action rather than part of a move action. Whether it requires moving or not is, like any other spell, completely up to the GM's/groups call. Even if it's purely mental, paralyzation means you can't do it, since you are immobile.

So, if you get paralyzed while flying without wings, you cannot move, can't succeed the check to hover. What happens when you fail that check though, is AFAIK unwritten in the rules and is basically also a GM/group call.


Matthew Downie wrote:

Very few things are ridiculous to everyone.

It requires Dex to fly well, even by magic, like the way Superman angles his body to steer. So it's reasonable to assume you're not controlled entirely by your mind but using your body to fly with. It's also reasonable to assume the opposite. (Although then you have to suffer the -5 penalty to Dex checks / inability to roll Dex checks, depending on whose rules you're using.)

I agree that you can you use your body to aid yourself in flight, but isnt required for flight per the spell. A level 10 caster level fly spell on a paralyzed medium character would have a fly skill of 0. -5 for 0 dex, +5 for half caster level.


Those who quoted that Ironman needs physical movement to fly has forgotten about Jarvis. Never forget about Jarvis!


Gaberlunzie wrote:


It's really simple: You can't, by RAW, move while paralyzed. Flying or not. Swimming or not. Burrowing or not.

Quote:
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions[b]. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
As made clear in the first bolded sentence, paralyzation bans you both from moving and acting. The second bolded section just says that you can take purely mental actions, but does not say that you can move.

Essentially, you can take mental actions, but you cannot move, so casting a component-less spell works, but anything that involves moving is straight out. One could even argue that something like a silent Dimension Door would be useless as you are unable to move.

If that wasn't enough, paralyzation gives you a dex of 0 and the dex section specifies further that you cannot move while having a 0.

Now, that is the relevant part to determine this, but in addition to this, [b]there is also nothing in the Fly spell which states that you don't have to physically move. It does not say that you move by thinking about it. It just says "using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking" - that means that it does not require more concentration than walking. It does not mean that you move by concentrating. It is to separate from spells like, say, levitate, where moving up to 20ft vertically is a specific separate action rather than part of a move action. Whether it requires moving or not is, like any other spell, completely up to the GM's/groups call. Even if it's purely mental, paralyzation means you can't do it, since you are immobile.

So, if you get paralyzed while flying without wings, you cannot move, can't succeed the check to hover. What happens when you fail that check though, is AFAIK unwritten in the rules and is basically also a GM/group call.

So you are a proponent of Paralyzed=Anchored in space. Interesting.

Fly (spell) doesn't explicitly say you need to move, NOR does it say you need to think. So I guess you just can't control it at all, because it never says how you control it.

Fly (skill) must only be rolled if attempting complex manuevers, so moving half speed or more is allowed.

Really it boils down to this: How does one control the Fly spell?

Mental? You can use it if paralyzed

Physical? You're flapping your arms? Making hand gestures? (do you need a free hand to control it?)

Vocal? Singing like a birdy? Issuing commands?

It doesn't say.

It does say that it requires as much CONCENTRATION as walking.

Can you meet that requirement while paralyzed? Can you concentrate?

Yep.

So you have met the requirment to control the spell, thus, you may use the spell as written, with the limitations imposed by Paralyze.

Unless you think you should be anchored in space, resulting in you firing off into the sky... or across the landscape... In any case, you would become immune to bullrushes, trips and so forth.

I'm gonna stick to what the book says, personally.


How hard is it to realize that this is a Rules gray area? There is no white or black. The rules are of no help to you here.

This needs an FAQ, errata, or DM fiat. Any argument made is pointless because there are no rules to base it off of.


Quote:
So you are a proponent of Paralyzed=Anchored in space. Interesting.

No, but paralyzed = immobilized = can't move. That doesn't mean that you can't _be_ moved by external forces.

Quote:
Fly (spell) doesn't explicitly say you need to move, NOR does it say you need to think. So I guess you just can't control it at all, because it never says how you control it.

The spell doesn't require you to move. It gives you a speed. Taking move actions using that speed is, by definition, moving. Earth Glide doesn't require you to burrow through the earth, it just allows you to, and if you're hit by an effect that says "you can't move" or the earth is hit with an effect that says "people can't burrow through this earth", then you can't burrow.

Quote:
Really it boils down to this: How does one control the Fly spell?

No, that's not what it boils down to. It's irrelevant. A paralyzed creature can't move. Period. A creature with dexterity 0 can't move. Period. You know what taking a move action is? Moving.

The spell only gives you a speed, just like using Elemental Body to turn into an air elemental with a fly speed.

Quote:


I'm gonna stick to what the book says, personally.
That's exactly what I'm doing.
Core rulebook wrote:
unable to move

.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

How hard is it to realize that this is a Rules gray area? There is no white or black. The rules are of no help to you here.

This needs an FAQ, errata, or DM fiat. Any argument made is pointless because there are no rules to base it off of.

Agreed.

If Fly can be neutralized by a silence spell, or some effect that controls your body, then I agree.

Otherwise, it kinda all adds up.

I've shown my work.

Dark Archive

Seems clear to me that the fly spell allows you to fly as a purely mentally-driven action, as opposed to spells like Air Walk that state you can walk on air (physical, not mental). I doubt it was intentional, but that doesn't matter when you're discussing the rules.

Know what else doesn't influence RAW? Examples from works of fiction that are not Pathfinder. Superman, Iron Man, etc move physically when flying? Who cares? That's not Pathfinder, and doesn't influence how the rules work.

Personally I'm FAQing this since the condition doesn't specify whether all movement is blocked or just physical movement. If you're going to make an exception for mental actions you have to include terminology for physical actions too.


LuniasM wrote:

Seems clear to me that the fly spell allows you to fly as a purely mentally-driven action, as opposed to spells like Air Walk that state you can walk on air (physical, not mental). I doubt it was intentional, but that doesn't matter when you're discussing the rules.

Know what else doesn't influence RAW? Examples from works of fiction that are not Pathfinder. Superman, Iron Man, etc move physically when flying? Who cares? That's not Pathfinder, and doesn't influence how the rules work.

You do realize that the examples of superman and iron man where brought up in response to people saying that it can't require moving as flapping ones arms is silly?

RAW doesn't say anything like the fly spell allowing you to fly as a purely mentally-driven action. It says it doesn't require more concentration than walking, so you can act normally while under the effect of it. As opposed to keeping a spell like Minor Image up, or interacting with Levitate.


None of this matters because when you are paralyzed you also have STR 0. With STR 0 you are effectively unconscious and even if you are not unconscious you are too encumbered to move.

At a minimum you stay anchored in the air hovering due to the magic that is keeping you there and at the maximum you fall gently to the ground per the rules of the Fly spell.


el cuervo wrote:

None of this matters because when you are paralyzed you also have STR 0. With STR 0 you are effectively unconscious and even if you are not unconscious you are too encumbered to move.

At a minimum you stay anchored in the air hovering due to the magic that is keeping you there and at the maximum you fall gently to the ground per the rules of the Fly spell.

Your not anywhere near uncoscious. As it says you can take mental actions.

Also you fall gently to the ground when the spell ends. The maximum is you fly via mental commands


Rogar Stonebow wrote:
el cuervo wrote:

None of this matters because when you are paralyzed you also have STR 0. With STR 0 you are effectively unconscious and even if you are not unconscious you are too encumbered to move.

At a minimum you stay anchored in the air hovering due to the magic that is keeping you there and at the maximum you fall gently to the ground per the rules of the Fly spell.

Your not anywhere near uncoscious. As it says you can take mental actions.

This is true - paralyzation makes an exception to that. The general rule is that you're unconscious at Str0 but paralyzation is an exception. However, it makes no exception for movement but rather chooses to repeat that limitation an extra time.


el cuervo wrote:

None of this matters because when you are paralyzed you also have STR 0. With STR 0 you are effectively unconscious and even if you are not unconscious you are too encumbered to move.

At a minimum you stay anchored in the air hovering due to the magic that is keeping you there and at the maximum you fall gently to the ground per the rules of the Fly spell.

Wrong on both counts.

When paralyzed, you ARE allowed to take mental actions.

You can't hover in this scenario, because using the Fly skill requires a DEX greater than zero.

IF you can control Fly without physical/vocal actions, then you may continue to fly at half speed or greater (no Fly check required for that, you DO have to roll for Hover, thus, not allowed).


Gaberlunzie wrote:
Rogar Stonebow wrote:
el cuervo wrote:

None of this matters because when you are paralyzed you also have STR 0. With STR 0 you are effectively unconscious and even if you are not unconscious you are too encumbered to move.

At a minimum you stay anchored in the air hovering due to the magic that is keeping you there and at the maximum you fall gently to the ground per the rules of the Fly spell.

Your not anywhere near uncoscious. As it says you can take mental actions.
This is true - paralyzation makes an exception to that. The general rule is that you're unconscious at Str0 but paralyzation is an exception. However, it makes no exception for movement but rather chooses to repeat that limitation an extra time.

Yup, you aren't moving. You are being moved by magic.

Important to recognize the difference. Does being paralyzed make you immune to Teleport? Of course not.


alexd1976 wrote:
el cuervo wrote:

None of this matters because when you are paralyzed you also have STR 0. With STR 0 you are effectively unconscious and even if you are not unconscious you are too encumbered to move.

At a minimum you stay anchored in the air hovering due to the magic that is keeping you there and at the maximum you fall gently to the ground per the rules of the Fly spell.

Wrong on both counts.

When paralyzed, you ARE allowed to take mental actions.

You can't hover in this scenario, because using the Fly skill requires a DEX greater than zero.

IF you can control Fly without physical/vocal actions, then you may continue to fly at half speed or greater (no Fly check required for that, you DO have to roll for Hover, thus, not allowed).

You misunderstand me. Paralysis makes an exception that you can take mental actions (unlike STR 0 = unconscious). The important part, which you overlooked, is that at STR 0 you are immobilized due to over-encumbrance.

If you argue that you would not maintain flight because you cannot make your fly check, then you would gently fall to the ground, as I said in my last post.

I'm not sure how that makes me wrong on both counts.


el cuervo wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
el cuervo wrote:

None of this matters because when you are paralyzed you also have STR 0. With STR 0 you are effectively unconscious and even if you are not unconscious you are too encumbered to move.

At a minimum you stay anchored in the air hovering due to the magic that is keeping you there and at the maximum you fall gently to the ground per the rules of the Fly spell.

Wrong on both counts.

When paralyzed, you ARE allowed to take mental actions.

You can't hover in this scenario, because using the Fly skill requires a DEX greater than zero.

IF you can control Fly without physical/vocal actions, then you may continue to fly at half speed or greater (no Fly check required for that, you DO have to roll for Hover, thus, not allowed).

You misunderstand me. Paralysis makes an exception that you can take mental actions (unlike STR 0 = unconscious). The important part, which you overlooked, is that at STR 0 you are immobilized due to over-encumbrance.

If you argue that you would not maintain flight because you cannot make your fly check, then you would gently fall to the ground, as I said in my last post.

I'm not sure how that makes me wrong on both counts.

Oh, now THAT is a good point. STR 0 means you (potentially) would be encumbered.

Okay, so you might not be able to fly if you are carrying literally ANYTHING.

As for floating to the ground, nope. That's what happens when the spell ends.

You would fall. Splat.

Okay, so, IF unencumbered AND able to control Fly by mental command, it sorta works.

99% of the time though, that STR thing will get you.

Thanks for catching that one, I totally didn't see it.

Dark Archive

Gaberlunzie wrote:
LuniasM wrote:

Seems clear to me that the fly spell allows you to fly as a purely mentally-driven action, as opposed to spells like Air Walk that state you can walk on air (physical, not mental). I doubt it was intentional, but that doesn't matter when you're discussing the rules.

Know what else doesn't influence RAW? Examples from works of fiction that are not Pathfinder. Superman, Iron Man, etc move physically when flying? Who cares? That's not Pathfinder, and doesn't influence how the rules work.

You do realize that the examples of superman and iron man where brought up in response to people saying that it can't require moving as flapping ones arms is silly?

RAW doesn't say anything like the fly spell allowing you to fly as a purely mentally-driven action. It says it doesn't require more concentration than walking, so you can act normally while under the effect of it. As opposed to keeping a spell like Minor Image up, or interacting with Levitate.

Flight requires as much concentration as walking. That's the closest we have to a description. The spell doesn't say it requires physical movement, and pointing out fictional examples of flight that can use movement means nothing as they aren't Pathfinder material. Without rules to back up the claim that flight requires physical movement you cannot assume that it does. The issue is that you have no natural means of flight and the spell does it for you, requiring no more Concentration than walking.

I included the Air Walk example as proof that there are spells which specify that you move physically to fly. Walking on air is specific. Concentration is not.


"The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."

Effective strength of 0 because of the paralysed condition. Fly spell fails. Gently float down and patiently wait for your scheduled coup-de-grace. Thank you.

Edit: huh, the posts reaching this conclusion weren't there before I posted even though they were posted over an hour ago. Weird.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
el cuervo wrote:
None of this matters because when you are paralyzed you also have STR 0.

Citation: Paralyzed


alexd1976 wrote:
Can't make Fly checks with a DEX of 0, but with the Fly spell, as long as you keep moving at half or greater speed, you don't need to make checks.

Why not?

If I am a 5th level Wizard with 5 ranks of fly and have the fly spell active, I can hover.
Hover DC = 15
Skill = -5 (Dex) + 5 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 2 (1/2 fly spell) + Take 10 = 15

I looked in the SRD, and nothing states you cannot make a check with an effective 0 stat. An actual 0 stat means you are unconscious or dead. Paralyzed is neither of these.

Gaberlunzie wrote:
No, but paralyzed = immobilized = can't move. That doesn't mean that you can't _be_ moved by external forces.

Actually, immobilized means something else:

immobilize wrote:

verb (used with object), immobilized, immobilizing.

1. to make immobile or immovable; fix in place.
2. to prevent the use, activity, or movement of:
The hurricane immobilized the airlines.
3. to deprive of the capacity for mobilization:
The troops were immobilized by the enemy.
4. Medicine/Medical. to prevent, restrict, or reduce normal movement in (the body, a limb, or a joint), as by a splint, cast, or prescribed bed rest.
5. to render (an opponent's strategy) ineffective; stymie.
6. Finance.
6a. to establish a monetary reserve by withdrawing (specie) from circulation.
6b. to create fixed capital in place of (circulating capital).

The cannot move or act means cannot use a change their square by standard movement or take actions that require movement of some type.

Being paralyzed does not remove your ability to make reflex saves.
Being paralyzed does not remove your ability to dodge.
Being paralyzed does not make you helpless.

/cevah


Actually, being paralyzed does make you helpless, as mentioned in the glossary definitions of both "Paralyzed" and "Helpless".


Does the dex stuff even matter? Fly spell limits your flight to nothing if you are over heavy encumbrance and your strength is now 0.

It would be nice if they explained what happens when you are already aloft and can't carry anything aloft anymore.

edit: looks like one person came to that conclusion before I did.


Spacial Movement =/= Physical Movement

I'll repeat it as long as people here is being irritatingly dense


My opinion has changed due to el quervo. His citing of over - encumbrance tells me that even with the fly spell. You are most likely SOL. Well done El. I was wrong.


ErichAD wrote:

Does the dex stuff even matter? Fly spell limits your flight to nothing if you are over heavy encumbrance and your strength is now 0.

It would be nice if they explained what happens when you are already aloft and can't carry anything aloft anymore.

The Fly spell would have to come to an end to turn into a Featherfall. I don't think it should end just because the target is suddenly overencumbered. It stands to reason that the Fly spell just continues to be active, with the target unable to enjoy the benefits and crashing because of that.

Actually, even if it does end, there'll be a crash anyway, because Featherfall also has weight allowance issues, so it fails to do anything just like the Fly does.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Original Poster already knows the rules don't cover the situation well and gave the caveat that we are to assume that the paralyzed character continues to remain airborne.

My homebrew GM call take would be to say the flying character is now floating like a parade balloon and can only move at base speed in the direction the paralyzed character is currently looking at, otherwise can only slowly float at 5 foot increments to avoid hitting things. Since no fly checks can be made, lots of bumping around and humor can possibly result.


My bad on Paralyze making you helpless.

Fly
Look again at the spell. Being encumbered reduces your movement, not remove it.
Also, an effective strength of zero does not make you unable to carry anything, as it is not an actual strength of zero (which makes you unconscious). It instead acts like a penalty.
Even if you ignore this, the spell states you get yourself and armor PLUS what you can carry. May be an oversight, but it lets you bring more aloft than you can move on the ground, assuming you wear armor.
Feather Fall's weight limits are based on carried objects, but not gear.
Lastly, if you become paralyzed after you are flying, why should the fly spell suddenly loose the ability to carry some weight?

I think the weight limit, and speed are set when the spell is cast, and does not change for the life of the spell. To say otherwise is to open a big can of worms on a lot of spells that are based on some aspect outside of the spell. For example, Water Breathing lasts 1H/L. What if the caster suddenly looses a level. Does the spell now last one hour less? I am sure there are many examples out there.

/cevah

Sczarni

Callum wrote:
I'm of the opinion that a paralyzed creature that is under the effects of a fly spell can still fly around (since a paralyzed creature "can take purely mental actions" and "using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"). Assuming that's the case, what penalties would you assign to such a creature? It seems to me that the creature wouldn't count as helpless (since it isn't "completely at an opponent's mercy"), nor is it fully paralyzed (since it isn't "unable to move"), so I wouldn't treat it as having a Dexterity of 0. On the other hand, it can't fully use its Dexterity to avoid attacks (or dodge spells), so some sort of penalty seems in order. What do you think?

Fly is a type of movement... "A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act." You are replacing the "act" for the "move" and applying it as if "move" doesn't exist in the paralysis definition. You are changing "mental action" (only action allowed) for "move" (still can't move)... but while you can take mental actions, you still cannot "move"... ie. Fly.

No. You may not FLY, DIG, TUNNEL, WALK, RUN, TELEPORT, or otherwise MOVE while paralyzed. Per RAW anyway. You'd be suspended in air, paralyzed, waiting for someone to move you/hit you/whatever normal people do with paralyzed, unmoving, un-acting, still THINKING persons. (ps. wind can move a flying paralyzed person who fails (because they can't make them) fly checks)

The only exception I might (probably) make to this would be a thought activated User Activated spell item which moved you somehow, without having to move (Dim Door wouldn't work well).


There is no universal RAW definition of 'move'. If you can't move, that could mean:

You can't be shifted from that spot in any way, like an Immovable Rod.

You can't move any of your limbs around under direct control of your muscles - but if you had a purely mental ability to levitate or teleport or manipulate your body telekinetically, that would be fine.

You can't intentionally leave the square you're in.

Etc.


We should all just FAQ request the OP.


alexd1976 wrote:


Yup, you aren't moving. You are being moved by magic.

Important to recognize the difference. Does being paralyzed make you immune to Teleport? Of course not.

Wrong. Fly says: "The subject can fly". It is a transmutation spell. If we're going to compare it to other spells, we should compare them to similar ones, like Elemental Body which states that "You also gain fly 60 feet" or Expeditious Retreat that states "this spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet" or Gaseous Form that states "a gaseous creature // can fly".

Meanwhile, Teleport is a conjuration spell that states: "This spell instantly transports you".

"Fly" does not move you. Casting "Fly" does not move you. It gives you the ability to move. Paralyzation removes that ability. It is nothing like Teleport. It is like Monstrous Physique.


Cevah wrote:

My bad on Paralyze making you helpless.

Fly
Look again at the spell. Being encumbered reduces your movement, not remove it.
Also, an effective strength of zero does not make you unable to carry anything, as it is not an actual strength of zero (which makes you unconscious). It instead acts like a penalty.
Even if you ignore this, the spell states you get yourself and armor PLUS what you can carry. May be an oversight, but it lets you bring more aloft than you can move on the ground, assuming you wear armor.
Feather Fall's weight limits are based on carried objects, but not gear.
Lastly, if you become paralyzed after you are flying, why should the fly spell suddenly loose the ability to carry some weight?

I think the weight limit, and speed are set when the spell is cast, and does not change for the life of the spell. To say otherwise is to open a big can of worms on a lot of spells that are based on some aspect outside of the spell. For example, Water Breathing lasts 1H/L. What if the caster suddenly looses a level. Does the spell now last one hour less? I am sure there are many examples out there.

/cevah

You can walk. When you're carrying more than your strength allows for, you can't walk.

You can fly. When you're carrying more than your strength allows for, you can't fly.

It's the same thing. Not an arbitrary limitation of the magic. It's your body being taxed past the limit.


Callum wrote:
I'm of the opinion that a paralyzed creature that is under the effects of a fly spell can still fly around (since a paralyzed creature "can take purely mental actions" and "using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking"). Assuming that's the case, what penalties would you assign to such a creature? It seems to me that the creature wouldn't count as helpless (since it isn't "completely at an opponent's mercy"), nor is it fully paralyzed (since it isn't "unable to move"), so I wouldn't treat it as having a Dexterity of 0. On the other hand, it can't fully use its Dexterity to avoid attacks (or dodge spells), so some sort of penalty seems in order. What do you think?

So, taking it back to the beginning. First we'd need to take the fly spell and make it actually purely mental, remove the carrying capacity requirement and replace it with a weight by caster level requirement. you would also need to do something about flight's entanglement with dexterity via the flight skill. You could assume that they simply can't do anything that requires a check, but if you found a way to turn fly into a different type of check you'd be home free.

Honestly, it sounds like the abilities of a slightly better flight spell. I don't know if paizo could really make a ruling on it, but you may as well ask them how they would handle purely mental flight.


Gaberlunzie wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Yup, you aren't moving. You are being moved by magic.

Important to recognize the difference. Does being paralyzed make you immune to Teleport? Of course not.

Wrong. Fly says: "The subject can fly". It is a transmutation spell. If we're going to compare it to other spells, we should compare them to similar ones, like Elemental Body which states that "You also gain fly 60 feet" or Expeditious Retreat that states "this spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet" or Gaseous Form that states "a gaseous creature // can fly".

Meanwhile, Teleport is a conjuration spell that states: "This spell instantly transports you".

"Fly" does not move you. Casting "Fly" does not move you. It gives you the ability to move. Paralyzation removes that ability. It is nothing like Teleport. It is like Monstrous Physique.

What is your fly speed? The spell does NOT grant you that. Contrast the Touch of the Sea that gives you a swim speed.

Since you do not have a fly speed, you cannot fly. The spell lets you move because magic. It does not give you wings. It does not give you a fly speed.

/cevah


If you don't have a fly speed, why does the spell give you good maneuverability? That's a meaningless term outside the context of having a fly speed. Certainly it doesn't mean you gain a +4 bonus on Fly skill checks, because that only applies to creatures with a fly speed.

Not that any of it matters for the issue at hand of course, because at an effective strength of 0, you'll crash anyway, unless you're completely naked.


Just made a FAQ thread for this. Worded it for the questions raised, and made it in the FAQ question style.

Please FAQ it.

/cevah


Forseti wrote:

If you don't have a fly speed, why does the spell give you good maneuverability? That's a meaningless term outside the context of having a fly speed. Certainly it doesn't mean you gain a +4 bonus on Fly skill checks, because that only applies to creatures with a fly speed.

Not that any of it matters for the issue at hand of course, because at an effective strength of 0, you'll crash anyway, unless you're completely naked.

I'm pretty sure the clothes you are wearing don't count against encumbrance.

Otherwise, yes...

I'm not sure why people think you have to make physical movement or vocal commands to control Fly (spell), can anyone cite a source for this?


BOOM! Right into the ground.

Damn component pouch.

51 to 100 of 573 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / What penalties for a paralyzed creature using a fly spell? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.