I'm pretty sure the clothes you are wearing don't count against encumbrance.
Page 131 of the 3.5 Players Handbook: "This first
outfit is free and does not count against the amount of weight acharacter can carry."
This text or anything of the same general meaning is nowhere to be found in the Pathfinder rules, as far as I'm aware.
Original Poster already knows the rules don't cover the situation well and gave the caveat that we are to assume that the paralyzed character continues to remain airborne.
Quite. Thanks for noticing that, KestrelZ! I was hoping to solicit people's opinions on what penalties to apply to apply to a magically flying, paralyzed creature, assuming that you can fly while paralyzed. I wasn't intending to start a discussion on whether or not you can.
Having said that, although I briefly explained my reasons for thinking you can fly while paralyzed in the OP, I didn't directly address the issues of a paralyzed creature being "frozen in place and unable to move or act" and having "effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0". In my opinion, these are addressing the physical capabilities of a paralyzed creature. It can't move its limbs, so it's unable to dodge blows or fireballs, swing a sword or bust open a door, resist being bull rushed around, etc. However, being able to fly changes things - just as you can no longer be considered to be helpless, you can now move yourself around (although you still can't move your limbs) and interact with your environment in a limited way. In short, being able to fly impacts on the paralyzed state, and changes some of its restrictions.
Of course, none of this matters if you are of the opinion that you need to be able to physically move in order to make use of a fly spell - but I'm not, as I said at the start. Please feel free to click the FAQ button on Cevah's thread, if you like!
In short, being able to fly impacts on the paralyzed state, and changes some of its restrictions.
The rules tell me the opposite with regards to flying by means of the Fly spell. The Paralyzed condition impacts on the granted ability to fly, by introducing severe restrictions that make flight completely impossible.
In short, being able to fly impacts on the paralyzed state, and changes some of its restrictions.The rules tell me the opposite with regards to flying by means of the Fly spell. The Paralyzed condition impacts on the granted ability to fly, by introducing severe restrictions that make flight completely impossible.
I think the proponents of it continuing to work view it as some sort of telekinesis instead of flight action.
The fact that you need to make fly checks would imply that something other than mental actions are going on (to me at least).
I think the proponents of it continuing to work view it as some sort of telekinesis instead of flight action.In short, being able to fly impacts on the paralyzed state, and changes some of its restrictions.The rules tell me the opposite with regards to flying by means of the Fly spell. The Paralyzed condition impacts on the granted ability to fly, by introducing severe restrictions that make flight completely impossible.
I realize that. Even supposing they are right, they still need to explain how they're getting around this restriction straight out of the Fly spell itself: "it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."
Regardless of how it allows you to fly, it won't let you fly at an effective strength of 0 if you're carrying anything at all.
The fact that you need to make fly checks would imply that something other than mental actions are going on (to me at least).
The fly skill represents the fact that you "are skilled at flying, through either the use of wings or magic, and can perform daring or complex maneuvers while airborne." As it states, you "generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver." You don't need to make Fly checks in other circumstances, which suggests to me that you can fly in a basic way without needing to rely on Dexterity, or physical actions.
Even supposing they are right, they still need to explain how they're getting around this restriction straight out of the Fly spell itself: "it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."
Regardless of how it allows you to fly, it won't let you fly at an effective strength of 0 if you're carrying anything at all.
I tried to explain that just now - I obviously didn't do a very good job of it. Sorry!
I don't believe that the "effective Strength score of 0" part of the paralyzed condition represents the fact that you are made weak (which is the standard interpretation of 0 Str) - this is, in part, why it is an "effective" score of 0. Rather, it is the other way around - because you are paralyzed, you aren't able to use your Strength score to do things (like resist bull rushes), hence your Strength score is effectively 0. When you become paralyzed, your gear doesn't become unbearably heavy; in fact, as you are completely rigid, it is very easy to carry it all! Consequently, I don't believe the effective Strength score of 0 is applicable to the weight restriction given in the fly spell.
I don't believe that the "effective Strength score of 0" part of the paralyzed condition represents the fact that you are made weak (which is the standard interpretation of 0 Str) - this is, in part, why it is an "effective" score of 0. Rather, it is the other way around - because you are paralyzed, you aren't able to use your Strength score to do things (like resist bull rushes), hence your Strength score is effectively 0. When you become paralyzed, your gear doesn't become unbearably heavy; in fact, as you are completely rigid, it is very easy to carry it all!
I don't think the Paralyzed condition says anything about you becoming rigid. Again, it's a question of how you interpret 'unable to move' as well as the unknowable differences between an 'effective' strength of 0 versus an actual strength of 0.
A thought: Muleback Cords. The wearer treats his Strength score as 8 higher than normal when determining his carrying capacity. Effective strength of 8 while paralyzed?
I don't think the Paralyzed condition says anything about you becoming rigid.
True, but the entry for paralysis in the Glossary says "He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs."
Again, it's a question of how you interpret 'unable to move' as well as the unknowable differences between an 'effective' strength of 0 versus an actual strength of 0.
Yes, absolutely. I was just trying to explain my interpretation, not rule out any others.
It isn't just having a STR of 0, but a DEX of 0 as well. Fly is a DEX-based skill.
Unfortunately, any interpretation of that is not in the rules, it's a judgment call. For my two-cents: since your DEX is now 0, you cannot Fly. The spell has a built-in safety-net of Featherfall, which I would rule becomes active so you don't crash into the ground - unless you were flying sufficiently high that you would not make it to the ground in the time frame the spell grants.
But that's just my GM call. It's not RAW since RAW does not cover this situation.
The fact that you need to make fly checks would imply that something other than mental actions are going on (to me at least).The fly skill represents the fact that you "are skilled at flying, through either the use of wings or magic, and can perform daring or complex maneuvers while airborne." As it states, you "generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver." You don't need to make Fly checks in other circumstances, which suggests to me that you can fly in a basic way without needing to rely on Dexterity, or physical actions.
Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem. The following tasks do require checks.
Does that mean that you can Ride without relying on Dex etc. as long as you don't do "the following tasks..."?
There is no universal RAW definition of 'move'. If you can't move, that could mean:
You can't be shifted from that spot in any way, like an Immovable Rod.
You can't move any of your limbs around under direct control of your muscles - but if you had a purely mental ability to levitate or teleport or manipulate your body telekinetically, that would be fine.
You can't intentionally leave the square you're in.
Etc.
You're confusing your subject and object. "You can't move" means something different from "You can't be moved".
Even supposing they are right, they still need to explain how they're getting around this restriction straight out of the Fly spell itself: "it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."
Regardless of how it allows you to fly, it won't let you fly at an effective strength of 0 if you're carrying anything at all.
I tried to explain that just now - I obviously didn't do a very good job of it. Sorry!
I don't believe that the "effective Strength score of 0" part of the paralyzed condition represents the fact that you are made weak (which is the standard interpretation of 0 Str) - this is, in part, why it is an "effective" score of 0. Rather, it is the other way around - because you are paralyzed, you aren't able to use your Strength score to do things (like resist bull rushes), hence your Strength score is effectively 0. When you become paralyzed, your gear doesn't become unbearably heavy; in fact, as you are completely rigid, it is very easy to carry it all! Consequently, I don't believe the effective Strength score of 0 is applicable to the weight restriction given in the fly spell.
To me, "an effective Strength score of 0" means that you use 0 in place of your actual Strength score for everything where strength is calculated but you don't take any ability drain or damage. This would include encumbrance because it's based on your strength score.
My bad on Paralyze making you helpless.
Fly
Look again at the spell. Being encumbered reduces your movement, not remove it.
Also, an effective strength of zero does not make you unable to carry anything, as it is not an actual strength of zero (which makes you unconscious). It instead acts like a penalty.
Even if you ignore this, the spell states you get yourself and armor PLUS what you can carry. May be an oversight, but it lets you bring more aloft than you can move on the ground, assuming you wear armor.
Feather Fall's weight limits are based on carried objects, but not gear.
Lastly, if you become paralyzed after you are flying, why should the fly spell suddenly loose the ability to carry some weight?I think the weight limit, and speed are set when the spell is cast, and does not change for the life of the spell. To say otherwise is to open a big can of worms on a lot of spells that are based on some aspect outside of the spell. For example, Water Breathing lasts 1H/L. What if the caster suddenly looses a level. Does the spell now last one hour less? I am sure there are many examples out there.
/cevah
You can walk. When you're carrying more than your strength allows for, you can't walk.
You can fly. When you're carrying more than your strength allows for, you can't fly.
It's the same thing. Not an arbitrary limitation of the magic. It's your body being taxed past the limit.
Sorry I've always had trouble locating the CRB passages about overencumberence. What page is that
"You can walk. When you're carrying more than your strength allows for, you can't walk"
It would really help me out since in a recent session we sapped a Plate wearers str down to under 10 and didn't know what that entailed.
I don't have a book at hand to quote you a page number, because I'm not at home. I can tell you that it's in the Additional Rules chapter.
This may be what you're looking for:
Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character's maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character's Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
Sorry I've always had trouble locating the CRB passages about overencumberence. What page is that
"You can walk. When you're carrying more than your strength allows for, you can't walk"
It would really help me out since in a recent session we sapped a Plate wearers str down to under 10 and didn't know what that entailed.
It's on p169, Carrying Capacity. The key section is quoted by Forseti, above.
If you don't have a fly speed, why does the spell give you good maneuverability? That's a meaningless term outside the context of having a fly speed. Certainly it doesn't mean you gain a +4 bonus on Fly skill checks, because that only applies to creatures with a fly speed.
Not that any of it matters for the issue at hand of course, because at an effective strength of 0, you'll crash anyway, unless you're completely naked.
I'm pretty sure the clothes you are wearing don't count against encumbrance.
Otherwise, yes...
I'm not sure why people think you have to make physical movement or vocal commands to control Fly (spell), can anyone cite a source for this?
There is no source, because you don't "control" the spell more than you "control" expeditious retreat or magic weapon or what have you.
You could argue that the rules for the move action and run action don't say you have to physically move to take them, but then that applies equally to people who are not flying.
So to answer OP...
Assuming you are able to remain aloft while paralyzed (you must be naked or have a STR greater than 0 somehow).
You are helpless, and must remain moving at 1/2 speed or more (because if you go slower or faster, you must make a Fly check, which you are not allowed to do with DEX 0).
Your DEX and STR are 0.
You may not take actions other than purely mental.
That is all.
Wait. You want to use a Dex based skill while incapable of taking physical actions? Of course not. Don't be ridiculous.
So to answer OP...
Assuming you are able to remain aloft while paralyzed (you must be naked or have a STR greater than 0 somehow).
You are helpless, and must remain moving at 1/2 speed or more (because if you go slower or faster, you must make a Fly check, which you are not allowed to do with DEX 0).
Per my previous post, nothing prevents you making the check, or even hitting DC 15 (hover). You can make the check. You can make reflex saves. Even being unconscious, you get a reflex save.
/cevah
PS: 20 FAQ clicks so far.
So to answer OP...
Assuming you are able to remain aloft while paralyzed (you must be naked or have a STR greater than 0 somehow).
You are helpless, and must remain moving at 1/2 speed or more (because if you go slower or faster, you must make a Fly check, which you are not allowed to do with DEX 0).
Per my previous post, nothing prevents you making the check, or even hitting DC 15 (hover). You can make the check. You can make reflex saves. Even being unconscious, you get a reflex save.
/cevah
PS: 20 FAQ clicks so far.
Saves and checks are entirely two different beasts. Shame on you for even going there.
|
@alex1976
This is from Dexterity Ability Score description:
"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
You cannot perform any Dexterity check. You do not have a penalty, you simply cannot perform such a check. Fly skill, is a Dexterity based skill check in such case and you cannot perform it. Fly spell says nothing about giving a free floating service in the air so whatever happens is GM's call. This pure RAW reading unless I missed something. RAI might be another story.
You can make a reflex save (with a hefty penalty).
I don't see anything saying that you can't do a ride check to stay in the saddle. In RL unconscious people has stayed in the saddle, even while the horse was moving.- * -
What is the penalty for falling the hovering check?
You can't make the hovering maneuver so you have to move at least half of your movement speed.
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.
What if you don't do that?
If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
it seem it is limited to a winged creature.
A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls.
Hmm, it seem only a winged creature fall automatically.
So we have:
Rule 1: to fly you need to make a check or move at least at half of your fly speed
Rule 2: if you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground
non-rule 3: nothing about you being unable to fly if you don't use wings.
So:
effect 1: no check required if you fly at last at half your fly speed
effect 2: you don't plummet if you fail
effect 3: apparently SU and SP form of flight are considered a mental effort, not a physical one.
RAI 1: you use dexterity with the fly skill, regardless of how you fly EX, SU, SP, so we can assume you use some body motion for fine control.
With all the above in mind, my interpretation.
If you use the fly spell or some form of SU flying ability you can fly, with all the penalties for having dex 0. Normally you would move in a straight line at your base speed, you can make the appropriate checks to try different maneuvers.
You are still helpless if someone can attack you while flying as you don't have enough control to really avoid the attack (to make a paragon, a bound creature can move enough to try an escape check, but it is still helpless).
|
|
It specifies in the spell description S,V,F components, so I am assuming it does. How else can we identify term "purely mental actions"?@alex1976
This is from Dexterity Ability Score description:
"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
You cannot perform any Dexterity check. You do not have a penalty, you simply cannot perform such a check. Fly skill, is a Dexterity based skill check in such case and you cannot perform it. Fly spell says nothing about giving a free floating service in the air so whatever happens is GM's call. This pure RAW reading unless I missed something. RAI might be another story.
Fair enough. So hovering is out then.
They could still keep moving... unless controlling your spell requires physical components.
The spell is already cast, so why the casting components matter?
What if the flying character is a witch with the flight hex? SU ability, totally mental.
The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".
What if the flying character is a witch with the flight hex? SU ability, totally mental.
The source of flight is really irrelevant, apart _possibly_ for winged or non-winged (and we also get into the whole distinction of whether the creature actually uses the wings to fly; what about a dragon that has cast Fly?); the answer to this question is likely the same for someone casting Fly as for a witch with Flight and for a Gelugon or Air Elemental.
The questions basically boil down to:
1. Does taking move actions (or run actions or whatever) with wingless flight require physical movement?
2. If not, does the "you can take purely mental actions" override "you are frozen in place and can't move"?
I also think that if (1) is a "no", then that opens up for questions about other movement types; if move actions with wingless flight doesn't require physical movement, is the same true for finless swimming, or burrowing?
So far I've assumed a move action implied movement, unless specifically and explicitly made an exception.
That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
Of course it does.
The mental action clause is listed immediately after the 'frozen in place and unable to move' clause.
Reading any other way is an aggressive misinterpretation of the rules.
Regarding the Fly skill-I don't recall who pointed it out or where it was... but apparently DEX 0 specifically calls out being unable to make skill checks.
With Fly (the skill)-YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO MAKE CHECKS! There are maneuvers you can do without rolling the dice! Moving over half speed, for example...
So stop saying you can't fly simply because you can't roll... you don't NEED to roll, it just restricts your maneuverability.
Becoming paralyzed while under the effects of a Fly spell in most games will result in the poor victim crashing to the ground due to encumbrance (Feather Fall comes into play only when the spell ends, and becoming paralyzed doesn't end the spell).
Assuming ZERO encumbrance, and also assuming mental control of the spell, one could continue to float around at half or more flight speed, making gentle turns.
Not great, but better than nothing.
|
|
That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
I have a siled Dimension door memorized. Being "frozen in place and unable to move" stop me from casting it and teleporting away?
I have a siled Dimension door memorized. Being "frozen in place and unable to move" stop me from casting it and teleporting away?That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
Some people would argue that it would prevent you from using it.
I'm not one of those people.Magic moving you around (Teleport, Fly, Dimension Door etc) should not be affected by paralysis.
If the spell explicitly calls out using your appendages to use the spell (Air Walk, Expeditious Retreat etc) then yes, paralysis would affect it.
I'm not sure why people think that Fly (the spell) requires your limbs to work. The fact that you need to make Fly (the skill) checks for doing complex maneuvers does NOT mean that you are flapping your arms to control it, it just means that you need some skill to pull off complex turns and such without risking loss of altitude.
Having experience with magical flight allows you to have the skill, which is based off DEX. Neither the skill nor the spell specify that you are controlling flight through physical means while flying magically.
Fly (the spell) DOES explicitly state that it requires as much concentration as walking. To me, this sentence is talking about control of the spell. Why would it be there otherwise? No other mention of control type is made, so we should use what IS printed-concentration equivalent to that of walking.
Mental action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have a siled Dimension door memorized. Being "frozen in place and unable to move" stop me from casting it and teleporting away?That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
Some people would argue that it would prevent you from using it.
I'm not one of those people.Magic moving you around (Teleport, Fly, Dimension Door etc) should not be affected by paralysis.
If the spell explicitly calls out using your appendages to use the spell (Air Walk, Expeditious Retreat etc) then yes, paralysis would affect it.
I'm not sure why people think that Fly (the spell) requires your limbs to work. The fact that you need to make Fly (the skill) checks for doing complex maneuvers does NOT mean that you are flapping your arms to control it, it just means that you need some skill to pull off complex turns and such without risking loss of altitude.
Having experience with magical flight allows you to have the skill, which is based off DEX. Neither the skill nor the spell specify that you are controlling flight through physical means while flying magically.
Fly (the spell) DOES explicitly state that it requires as much concentration as walking. To me, this sentence is talking about control of the spell. Why would it be there otherwise? No other mention of control type is made, so we should use what IS printed-concentration equivalent to that of walking.
Mental action.
But the fact that the rules indicate you need to make checks involving physical attributes at all, it strongly implies that it isn't purely mental. If it were, would it not be based of mental attributes, like every other action that is mental?
To make a solid and reasonable argument, the onus is on you to show that it is without a doubt a purely mental action. Not by showing there isn't anything saying it isn't, but by showing there are rules indicating it is (the whole system is exception based after all). Even if tangentially. Saying it is purely mental "because" doesn't hold water. The rules point to it being at least somewhat physical due to referring to the fly checks. It may not be flapping your arms, it may just be small body movements and effort exerted. But it still refers back to checks influenced by physical attributes.
That doesn't sound "purely mental" to me... Sorry.
But the fact that the rules indicate you need to make checks involving physical attributes at all, it strongly implies that it isn't purely mental. If it were, would it not be based of mental attributes, like every other action that is...I have a siled Dimension door memorized. Being "frozen in place and unable to move" stop me from casting it and teleporting away?That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
Some people would argue that it would prevent you from using it.
I'm not one of those people.Magic moving you around (Teleport, Fly, Dimension Door etc) should not be affected by paralysis.
If the spell explicitly calls out using your appendages to use the spell (Air Walk, Expeditious Retreat etc) then yes, paralysis would affect it.
I'm not sure why people think that Fly (the spell) requires your limbs to work. The fact that you need to make Fly (the skill) checks for doing complex maneuvers does NOT mean that you are flapping your arms to control it, it just means that you need some skill to pull off complex turns and such without risking loss of altitude.
Having experience with magical flight allows you to have the skill, which is based off DEX. Neither the skill nor the spell specify that you are controlling flight through physical means while flying magically.
Fly (the spell) DOES explicitly state that it requires as much concentration as walking. To me, this sentence is talking about control of the spell. Why would it be there otherwise? No other mention of control type is made, so we should use what IS printed-concentration equivalent to that of walking.
Mental action.
Actually it indicates that reacting to stimuli while flying requires a physical skill check.
But the fact that the rules indicate you need to make checks involving physical attributes at all, it strongly implies that it isn't purely mental. If it were, would it not be based of mental attributes, like every other action that is...I have a siled Dimension door memorized. Being "frozen in place and unable to move" stop me from casting it and teleporting away?That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
Some people would argue that it would prevent you from using it.
I'm not one of those people.Magic moving you around (Teleport, Fly, Dimension Door etc) should not be affected by paralysis.
If the spell explicitly calls out using your appendages to use the spell (Air Walk, Expeditious Retreat etc) then yes, paralysis would affect it.
I'm not sure why people think that Fly (the spell) requires your limbs to work. The fact that you need to make Fly (the skill) checks for doing complex maneuvers does NOT mean that you are flapping your arms to control it, it just means that you need some skill to pull off complex turns and such without risking loss of altitude.
Having experience with magical flight allows you to have the skill, which is based off DEX. Neither the skill nor the spell specify that you are controlling flight through physical means while flying magically.
Fly (the spell) DOES explicitly state that it requires as much concentration as walking. To me, this sentence is talking about control of the spell. Why would it be there otherwise? No other mention of control type is made, so we should use what IS printed-concentration equivalent to that of walking.
Mental action.
It requires as much concentration as walking.
That is the ONLY mention of anything resembling how it is controlled.
I have pointed this out many many times.
...But the fact that the rules indicate you need to make checks involving physical attributes at all, it strongly implies that it isn't purely mental. If it were, would it not be based of mental attributes,I have a siled Dimension door memorized. Being "frozen in place and unable to move" stop me from casting it and teleporting away?That's part of the crux. The other part is "does the "you may take mental actions" override the "you are frozen in place and unable to move".The crux of the matter is "what is a mental action".
We have another thread that ask "what is a physical action", BTW.I think the only reply is: ask your GM.
Some people would argue that it would prevent you from using it.
I'm not one of those people.Magic moving you around (Teleport, Fly, Dimension Door etc) should not be affected by paralysis.
If the spell explicitly calls out using your appendages to use the spell (Air Walk, Expeditious Retreat etc) then yes, paralysis would affect it.
I'm not sure why people think that Fly (the spell) requires your limbs to work. The fact that you need to make Fly (the skill) checks for doing complex maneuvers does NOT mean that you are flapping your arms to control it, it just means that you need some skill to pull off complex turns and such without risking loss of altitude.
Having experience with magical flight allows you to have the skill, which is based off DEX. Neither the skill nor the spell specify that you are controlling flight through physical means while flying magically.
Fly (the spell) DOES explicitly state that it requires as much concentration as walking. To me, this sentence is talking about control of the spell. Why would it be there otherwise? No other mention of control type is made, so we should use what IS printed-concentration equivalent to that of walking.
Mental action.
Nowhere in the Fly skill does it say that it in any way affects how the Fly spell works.
You only have to make a Fly check if you perform manuevers that are difficult.
If you are flying in a straight line, or making gentle turns, the Fly skill isn't even used.
At all.
The purpose of this thread was to figure out penalties and limitations on someone who was paralyzed while under the effects of Fly, not to dispute whether or not it works.
So, the assumptions are that it is controlled mentally, and the paralyzed person is unencumbered.
Therefor, as we are answering the original posters question, it is up to us to figure out all the effects and penalties that would apply.
DEX 0, STR 0
Cannot make Fly checks
Must remain moving
Can't make sharp turns or altitude changes
Mental actions only
Helpless
Melee attacks against them get a +4 (as per helpless)
Rogues can sneak attack them
Can be coup de grace-ed.
I would like to point out something. Under the paralyzed condition, they do talk about flying creatures, but only ones with wings.
They could have simply said flying creatures. They did not.
Yeah - it's definitely a gray area when it comes to flying via magic.
So, since it's not spelled out and hence no RAW, let's wait to see if we can get a ruling from Paizo.
Otherwise, this is all: "But I see it this way!" "Well, I see it that way!" - which will need to be decided by the GM at your table, and there will be differences.
Since this is the Rules Forum, debating "How would you run this?" becomes a House-rules question.
Regarding the Fly skill-I don't recall who pointed it out or where it was... but apparently DEX 0 specifically calls out being unable to make skill checks.
Please cite the rule. I have not see it, an if true, it would prevent hovering. If not true, hovering is easy if the flyer has 5 or more ranks in the skill.
/cevah
"You are frozen in place" trumps any sort of magical flying movement. To allow a player or NPC to continue magically flying during a paralysis effect is a bad interpretation of the rules. We're talking about a magical paralysis where you are frozen to the spot, your body going rigid. You are glued to the space you were paralyzed in. There is no other interpretation. I can't believe this has gone on for this long. One need only look at the description for Hold Person:
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.
It specifies that winged creatures fall to the ground. Magically flying creatures, under the effect of their magic, and held in place by Hold Person , must then remain frozen in place, or otherwise they float as if under the effect of Featherfall (per the effects of Fly). What happens to a person under the effect of Fly when they become paralyzed (do they fall to the ground, float to the ground, or remain frozen in the air?) is the only thing in question here; there is nothing written in any of the rules that indicates you would be able to continue flying or otherwise control your movement.
Regarding the Fly skill-I don't recall who pointed it out or where it was... but apparently DEX 0 specifically calls out being unable to make skill checks.Please cite the rule. I have not see it, an if true, it would prevent hovering. If not true, hovering is easy if the flyer has 5 or more ranks in the skill.
/cevah
It's in one of my previous posts... I will try to find it.
*quote pending*
@alex1976
This is from Dexterity Ability Score description:
"A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
You cannot perform any Dexterity check. You do not have a penalty, you simply cannot perform such a check. Fly skill, is a Dexterity based skill check in such case and you cannot perform it. Fly spell says nothing about giving a free floating service in the air so whatever happens is GM's call. This pure RAW reading unless I missed something. RAI might be another story.
I have been using your quote assuming it was correct. It is not.
You can still roll, you are simply rolling on a penalty. There is nothing in the rules saying you aren't allowed to roll, just that you are immobile.
In the case of the Fly spell, it grants you a new way to move, and you may roll on the Fly skill (albeit at a large penalty).
"You are frozen in place" trumps any sort of magical flying movement. To allow a player or NPC to continue magically flying during a paralysis effect is a bad interpretation of the rules. We're talking about a magical paralysis where you are frozen to the spot, your body going rigid. You are glued to the space you were paralyzed in. There is no other interpretation. I can't believe this has gone on for this long. One need only look at the description for Hold Person:
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.It specifies that winged creatures fall to the ground. Magically flying creatures, under the effect of their magic, and held in place by Hold Person , must then remain frozen in place, or otherwise they float as if under the effect of Featherfall (per the effects of Fly). What happens to a person under the effect of Fly when they become paralyzed (do they fall to the ground, float to the ground, or remain frozen in the air?) is the only thing in question here; there is nothing written in any of the rules that indicates you would be able to continue flying or otherwise control your movement.
Your interpretation does not allow for an outside force moving a paralyzed person.
Oh look, a cute tiny mouse. 《Paralyze》... oh look a colossal titan, run.....
The titan sees mouse, goes to pick it up, and can't because it is paralyzed. .....
Yeah that works for me...I can find a lot of abuses now....
"You are frozen in place" trumps any sort of magical flying movement. To allow a player or NPC to continue magically flying during a paralysis effect is a bad interpretation of the rules. We're talking about a magical paralysis where you are frozen to the spot, your body going rigid. You are glued to the space you were paralyzed in. There is no other interpretation. I can't believe this has gone on for this long. One need only look at the description for Hold Person:
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and but cannot take any actions, even speech.
If you are rigid, then you are not breathing. Hold Person does not do that.
You cannot take voluntary movement actions. You can certainly be picked up and carried. To think you become an Immovable Rod that cannot be overcome by a DC 30 strength check would make the 2nd level spell a whole lot more powerful than a CL10 item.
If "There is no other interpretation." then this thread would be a lot shorter.
/cevah
PS: FAQ up to 25
"You are frozen in place" trumps any sort of magical flying movement. To allow a player or NPC to continue magically flying during a paralysis effect is a bad interpretation of the rules. We're talking about a magical paralysis where you are frozen to the spot, your body going rigid. You are glued to the space you were paralyzed in. There is no other interpretation. I can't believe this has gone on for this long. One need only look at the description for Hold Person:
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.It specifies that winged creatures fall to the ground. Magically flying creatures, under the effect of their magic, and held in place by Hold Person , must then remain frozen in place, or otherwise they float as if under the effect of Featherfall (per the effects of Fly). What happens to a person under the effect of Fly when they become paralyzed (do they fall to the ground, float to the ground, or remain frozen in the air?) is the only thing in question here; there is nothing written in any of the rules that indicates you would be able to continue flying or otherwise control your movement.Your interpretation does not allow for an outside force moving a paralyzed person.
Oh look, a cute tiny mouse. 《Paralyze》... oh look a colossal titan, run.....
The titan sees mouse, goes to pick it up, and can't because it is paralyzed. .....
Yeah that works for me...I can find a lot of abuses now....
I didn't say it couldn't be moved by outside forces (and the spell doesn't say that either), only that you become frozen in place. You cannot move your limbs, cannot blink, speak, jump, or fly. Or take any other physical action.
If you are rigid, then you are not breathing. Hold Person does not do that.
You're being pedantic. You can't move your limbs, but you also don't collapse like a sack and go limp. I take that to mean that you are frozen, rigid, in your current posture. The spell allows for breathing.
Its not really clear if the Fly spell is supposed to work as a form of telekinesis (mentally lifting and moving your body through the air), or if it imparts a physical ability (you direct the movement with body movements like walking, swimming or climbing).
Although since it only has maneuverability (good), requires the dexterity-based Fly Skill, and the Fly Skill is specifically listed as a class skill for wizards and sorcerers (presumably for the purposes of this type of magic), it seems to imply the magic requires physical action.
So I think its a bit like asking if Spider Climb or Water Walk work if you are paralyzed.
You could always design your own spell called Telekinetic Flight, 1 level higher, which allows you to move with perfect maneuverability and purely mental action.
It talks about requiring as much concentration as walking, not as much MOVEMENT as walking.
You do not require the Fly skill to use the spell, why do people keep saying that?
Why would Wizards having the fly skill on their class list have any bearing on how a spell works? Look at the spell to see how it works. A wizard can turn into a bird, that has wings. THAT is another reason they might have the fly skill on their list!
So... you can infer whatever you like, but I find it safer to rely on printed material.
Just saying.
I didn't say it couldn't be moved by outside forces (and the spell doesn't say that either), only that you..."You are frozen in place" trumps any sort of magical flying movement. To allow a player or NPC to continue magically flying during a paralysis effect is a bad interpretation of the rules. We're talking about a magical paralysis where you are frozen to the spot, your body going rigid. You are glued to the space you were paralyzed in. There is no other interpretation. I can't believe this has gone on for this long. One need only look at the description for Hold Person:
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.It specifies that winged creatures fall to the ground. Magically flying creatures, under the effect of their magic, and held in place by Hold Person , must then remain frozen in place, or otherwise they float as if under the effect of Featherfall (per the effects of Fly). What happens to a person under the effect of Fly when they become paralyzed (do they fall to the ground, float to the ground, or remain frozen in the air?) is the only thing in question here; there is nothing written in any of the rules that indicates you would be able to continue flying or otherwise control your movement.Your interpretation does not allow for an outside force moving a paralyzed person.
Oh look, a cute tiny mouse. 《Paralyze》... oh look a colossal titan, run.....
The titan sees mouse, goes to pick it up, and can't because it is paralyzed. .....
Yeah that works for me...I can find a lot of abuses now....
"Glued in place" is what was creating the confusion.
Guys, this thread is BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT FLY CONTINUES TO WORK WHILE YOU ARE PARALYZED.
There are other threads about whether or not it works, this isn't one of them.
We are trying to figure out all the appropriate penalties that apply based on the assumptions that:
Fly is mentally controlled
The caster is still aloft despite STR 0 (so likely naked).
Lets try to stick to that, and debate whether or not it works in another thread.
Its not really clear if the Fly spell is supposed to work as a form of telekinesis (mentally lifting and moving your body through the air), or if it imparts a physical ability (you direct the movement with body movements like walking, swimming or climbing).
Although since it only has maneuverability (good), requires the dexterity-based Fly Skill, and the Fly Skill is specifically listed as a class skill for wizards and sorcerers (presumably for the purposes of this type of magic), it seems to imply the magic requires physical action.
So I think its a bit like asking if Spider Climb or Water Walk work if you are paralyzed.
You could always design your own spell called Telekinetic Flight, 1 level higher, which allows you to move with perfect maneuverability and purely mental action.
Oh my! More fodder for the fight discussion.
Touch of the Sea: swim speed of 30; +8 bonus on Swim checks; take 10; can also use the run action
Spider Climb: climb speed of 20; +8 racial bonus on Climb skill checks; cannot, however, use the run action
Fly: fly at a speed of 60; can charge but not run; bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level
Water Walk: can tread on any liquid as if it were firm ground; hover an inch or two above the surface; can walk, run, charge, or otherwise move
RAW, touch of the sea gives an +8 untyped bonus, and also a swim speed. However a swim speed gives a +8 racial bonus. Thus the spell gives an effective +16. RAI, they probably forgot the word "racial".
RAW, spider climb gives a climb speed. A climb speed gives +8 racial bonus, and can take 10. A climb speed can not run. Thus, you can take 10 with spider climb.
RAW, water walk does not give you a movement type. If paralyzed, you continue to hover an inch or two above the surface. Encumbrance does not affect this.
Reference:
Special Movement Types
/cevah
"Glued in place" is what was creating the confusion.
I guess that was a poor choice of words. I only meant you feel as if glued in place when you are under the effect of the spell, not that you are an immovable object due to the effects of the spell.
Its not really clear if the Fly spell is supposed to work as a form of telekinesis (mentally lifting and moving your body through the air), or if it imparts a physical ability (you direct the movement with body movements like walking, swimming or climbing).
Although since it only has maneuverability (good), requires the dexterity-based Fly Skill, and the Fly Skill is specifically listed as a class skill for wizards and sorcerers (presumably for the purposes of this type of magic), it seems to imply the magic requires physical action.
So I think its a bit like asking if Spider Climb or Water Walk work if you are paralyzed.
You could always design your own spell called Telekinetic Flight, 1 level higher, which allows you to move with perfect maneuverability and purely mental action.
Oh my! More fodder for the
fightdiscussion.Touch of the Sea: swim speed of 30; +8 bonus on Swim checks; take 10; can also use the run action
Spider Climb: climb speed of 20; +8 racial bonus on Climb skill checks; cannot, however, use the run action
Fly: fly at a speed of 60; can charge but not run; bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level
Water Walk: can tread on any liquid as if it were firm ground; hover an inch or two above the surface; can walk, run, charge, or otherwise moveRAW, touch of the sea gives an +8 untyped bonus, and also a swim speed. However a swim speed gives a +8 racial bonus. Thus the spell gives an effective +16. RAI, they probably forgot the word "racial".
RAW, spider climb gives a climb speed. A climb speed gives +8 racial bonus, and can take 10. A climb speed can not run. Thus, you can take 10 with spider climb.
RAW, water walk does not give you a movement type. If...
Guys, this thread is BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT FLY CONTINUES TO WORK WHILE YOU ARE PARALYZED.
There are other threads about whether or not it works, this isn't one of them.
We are trying to figure out all the appropriate penalties that apply based on the assumptions that:
Fly is mentally controlled
The caster is still aloft despite STR 0 (so likely naked).
Lets try to stick to that, and debate whether or not it works in another thread.
Difference between fly and spider climb, is that you physically have to move a body part for that type of movement. Per your interpretation of the spell, what is physically being moved to gain flight? Arms? No casting spells then... wings are a no, the spell doesn't give you that. Flatuance? Maybe... abdominal muscles do control the expulsion of farts. Actually, this is the only conceivable flight method that can be affected by paralyze. Anything other than that, or mentally doesn't work.
So we down to flight by flatuance or flight by mental thought with assistance from dexterity via the fly skill.
For me mentally makes a lot more sense.
Guys, this thread is BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT FLY CONTINUES TO WORK WHILE YOU ARE PARALYZED.
There are other threads about whether or not it works, this isn't one of them.
We are trying to figure out all the appropriate penalties that apply based on the assumptions that:
Fly is mentally controlled
The caster is still aloft despite STR 0 (so likely naked).Lets try to stick to that, and debate whether or not it works in another thread.
Sure, if you want to ignore all the problems with this scenario and assume that somehow you could still fly despite being paralyzed (an egregious misinterpretation of the rules by a player who is obviously trying to gain an advantage), then the answer is simple. You make your Fly checks with your dex modifier as if your dex were at 0, meaning you take a -5 to your Fly checks. Never mind that "a character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
But this is the Rules questions forum, where only rules as written are discussed. Your entire conversation is based on a bad assumption, rendering the entire conversation moot.