2 hour / level summoned monsters

[avr]

Does this combo work together?
Get Heighten Spell; cast Mount at whatever level you like. Cast Alter Summoned Monster on the summoned mount to get a 2 hour/level earth elemental or whatever.

[Johnico]

I don't see any reason it wouldn't work.

Heighten Spell increases the level of the Mount for "All effects dependent on spell level", and Alter Summoned Monster just requires you to target a monster created via a Conjuration (Summoning) spell, which Mount is. It then changes the Mount to a monster summonable if you had cast a same-level Summon Monster spell, which Mount is now considered to be.

[Antariuk]

Just remember that the replacement creature is under the same conditions as the original one, so you can't switch your docile pony into an elemental who starts to kick people's teeth in - you can just use it as a mount. Which is probably still awesome :)

[Johnico]

The conditions line is referring to things like Blind, Confused, and so on, not whether it will punch people on command. Punching people when told isn't a Condition.

[TheIronwolf]

"The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target."

As read there Mount is first level, so you can only get a first level creature this way?

Or heighten spell actually increases the spell level?

[Chess Pwn]

TheIronwolf wrote:

"The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target."

As read there Mount is first level, so you can only get a first level creature this way?

Or heighten spell actually increases the spell level?

Heighten actually and only increases the spell's level

[Rogar Stonebow]

This is pretty creative.

[Avoron]

Combine it with Proxy Summoning for extra fun.

[bigrig107]

I....wow.
I love this.

Definitely an alternative to Planar Binding or the like.

[LazarX]

Johnico wrote:

I don't see any reason it wouldn't work.

Heighten Spell increases the level of the Mount for "All effects dependent on spell level", and Alter Summoned Monster just requires you to target a monster created via a Conjuration (Summoning) spell, which Mount is. It then changes the Mount to a monster summonable if you had cast a same-level Summon Monster spell, which Mount is now considered to be.

There's no reason why it would, The feat is "Altered Summoned Monster", not "Alter Summoned Mount".

[Aeric Blackberry]

OMG! You have broken the book in a record time!

How long till they publish a FAQ correcting this imbalance?

[DM_Blake]

I don't believe this should work. Here's why - along with some additional discussion.

More or less what LazarX said.

In addition, if you simply use Heighten Spell on a Summon Monster I spell, you get a higher level version of Summon Monster I (you do NOT get a Summon Monster IX spell). A Heightened Summon Monster spell means you still select from the same list (not a higher level list), but because the spell level is higher, your summoned monster will be harder to dispel.

See here.

So, Heightened Mount at level 9 is still a level 1 spell Heightened to level 9 - even if you persuaded me that you can alter your mount into some other summoned monster, I would insist that you must pick from the same level list as the Mount spell so you could summon a rat or a dog for example. Sure, it might last 2 hours but it's still just a level 1 Summoned Monster that has been Heigtened to a higher level.

[kyrt-ryder]

Silly Blake, that's not what the spell says.

The key point is that it requires a creature of the same Spell Level. Heighten spell genuinely changes the spell level.

Is it a little exploitive? Sure. Less so than Planar Binding though, that's for sure. [Granted it comes online significantly earlier.]

One thing about Summon Monster though? In the vast majority of cases these things are designed to die pretty quickly in combat, many times you're burning the Alter Spell in order to turn your highest level summon monster into a pre-casting that still dies in the very next fight.

It actually seems like a fairly reasonable-ish thing to me, though I'm not accounting for the spellcasting of higher level summons in this analysis.

[Mad Alchemist]

Aeric Blackberry wrote:

OMG! You have broken the book in a record time!

How long till they publish a FAQ correcting this imbalance?

It's been on the boards for a few days now. I think this is actually the third thread I've seen on it.

[Corsario]

I would say DM Blake is right... the spell is level 9, or whatever... but the mount is level 1. So you can change it to another level 1 summon monster creature.
You can keep it for longer, but you can change it for something stronger.

[LazarX]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Silly Blake, that's not what the spell says.

The key point is that it requires a creature of the same Spell Level. Heighten spell genuinely changes the spell level.

You're doing a bit of selective reading there champ... let me fill in the rest .... ONLY for purposes of calculating the spell's save DC.

[kyrt-ryder]

LazarX wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Silly Blake, that's not what the spell says.

The key point is that it requires a creature of the same Spell Level. Heighten spell genuinely changes the spell level.

You're doing a bit of selective reading there champ... let me fill in the rest .... ONLY for purposes of calculating the spell's save DC.

Allow me to quote the feat

Heighten Spell (Metamagic) wrote:

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

I'm not sure how you can argue Alter Summoned Monster's effect isn't dependent on spell level.

[Ronnie K]

LazarX wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Silly Blake, that's not what the spell says.

The key point is that it requires a creature of the same Spell Level. Heighten spell genuinely changes the spell level.

You're doing a bit of selective reading there champ... let me fill in the rest .... ONLY for purposes of calculating the spell's save DC.

If you are going to fill in...you might want to fill in with something that is ACTUALLY in the feat description.

[LazarX]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

LazarX wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Silly Blake, that's not what the spell says.

The key point is that it requires a creature of the same Spell Level. Heighten spell genuinely changes the spell level.

You're doing a bit of selective reading there champ... let me fill in the rest .... ONLY for purposes of calculating the spell's save DC.

Allow me to quote the feat

Heighten Spell (Metamagic) wrote:

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

I'm not sure how you can argue Alter Summoned Monster's effect isn't dependent on spell level.

Sure it is.. but as far as it goes, that only means that Summon Mount now has a save DC as a 9th level spell, which is inapplicable, and that it can now penetrate a Globe of Invulnerability, again not that applicable to situation. Heighten Spell does not change THE EFFECTS of the spell, which is what you're trying to pull.

[_Ozy_]

LazarX wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Silly Blake, that's not what the spell says.

The key point is that it requires a creature of the same Spell Level. Heighten spell genuinely changes the spell level.

You're doing a bit of selective reading there champ... let me fill in the rest .... ONLY for purposes of calculating the spell's save DC.

*facepalm*

I just don't even know what to say...

[kyrt-ryder]

LazarX wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

LazarX wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Silly Blake, that's not what the spell says.

The key point is that it requires a creature of the same Spell Level. Heighten spell genuinely changes the spell level.

You're doing a bit of selective reading there champ... let me fill in the rest .... ONLY for purposes of calculating the spell's save DC.

Allow me to quote the feat

Heighten Spell (Metamagic) wrote:

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

I'm not sure how you can argue Alter Summoned Monster's effect isn't dependent on spell level.

Sure it is.. but as far as it goes, that only means that Summon Mount now has a save DC as a 9th level spell, which is inapplicable, and that it can now penetrate a Globe of Invulnerability, again not that applicable to situation. Heighten Spell does not change THE EFFECTS of the spell, which is what you're trying to pull.

It doesn't need to change the effects, that's not what I'm trying to pull at all.

A Wizard could research a custom 'summon harmless goldfish' spell as a 9th level spell, and cast Alter Summon on it and turn it into anything in the 9th level Summon monster list.

This isn't about the effects of the spell, it's about the spell level.

[Berinor]

I agree with DM Blake in principle, but I agree with the OP on it as written. The spell is Conjuration (summoning). Its level is whatever you heighten it to. This is an effect dependent on the level of the spell, so it's treated as the higher spell level.

I would not allow this in a home game, but it checks out.

Edit: it looks like I'm pretty well ninja'd.

[kyrt-ryder]

Incidentally, we finally have a means for Sorcerers to be good summoners. Rather than blowing spell known after spell known into the summoning concept every spell level, they don't even take Summon Monster. Start with Mount and Summon Monster 1, picks up Alter Summon and trades out Summon Monster 1 at level 4 and never looks back.

Unfortunately, this does have the negative effect of only allowing the Sorcerer to bring a summon with him into battle rather than call the right one at the right time but it's actually viable and leaves him with spells known for other things.

[bbangerter]

LazarX wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Silly Blake, that's not what the spell says.

The key point is that it requires a creature of the same Spell Level. Heighten spell genuinely changes the spell level.

You're doing a bit of selective reading there champ... let me fill in the rest .... ONLY for purposes of calculating the spell's save DC.

Not sure if it was your intent LazarX, but this comes off as very condescending.

As for the question itself.

First some background on metamagic feats. Metamagic spells talk about increasing the spell level (e.g, quicken increase the spell level by 4), but what is really meant in this case is the spell slot.

It is clear based on that, and the FAQ on metamagic, that a quickened Mount spell would still be a level 1 spell for purposes of Alter Summoned Monster.

Heightened meta magic behaves differently. It increases the spell slot level in the same way other metamagics do, but then includes this:

PRD wrote:

...the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level...

Alter Summoned Monster is dependent on spell level. By RAW then this works.

As others have stated, I don't think this is RAI.

[DM_Blake]

So let's make this more basic.

If Kyra uses Heighten Spell on a Cure Light Wounds, and she raises it to 4th level and puts it in a 4th level slot - when she casts that, does she cast Cure Light Wounds or Cure Critical Wounds?

Hint: The answer is Cure Light Wounds. It just happens to be harder to counterspell.

If Ezren uses Heighten Spell on a good old fireball, and he raises it all the way to 9th level and puts it in a 9th level slot - when he casts that, does he cast Fireball or Meteor Swarm?

Hint: The answer is Fireball. It just happens to be harder to counter and can penetrate some defensive spells better.

If you use Heighten Spell on a Mount spell, and you raise it to 9th level and put it in a 9th level slot - when you cast that, do you get a Mount spell or a Gate spell?

Answer: Mount. A level 1 spell Heightened to 9th level. Nothing more.

Can you alter that mount with Alter Summoned Monster? I think not, because it is not a summoned monster. But the text of the ability says you can use it on any Conjuration(summoning) spell so maybe you can. That's a fair debate.

But when the dust settles from that debate, your Heightened Mount spell is a level 1 spell that was Heigtened, so now you (maybe) can use Alter Summoned Monster to pick something from the level 1 Summon Monster list and summon that (Heightened to 9th level).

Is that RAW?

No, not necessarily. I could argue that the Alter Summoned Monster results allows you you to summon a Nalfeshnee for 34 hours. But I'm pretty dang sure that the RAI was NEVER to allow that, given that using Gate for more than 1 round per level incurs a 10,000gp cost to bargain with the gated creature.

Based on that, I'm fairly sure the Mount spell is not included as a "Summoned Monster" (as per the title) and even if it is, you're only going to get a level 1 summoned critter.

[LazarX]

It has to be from a spell of the same level or lower. Heighten Spell doe snot change Summon Mount into a spell of higher level, it simply adjusts it's interaction with the rules in limited ways as if it were a spell of higher level.

[Corsario]

As DM Blake says. A Heightened Summon Monster I doesn't let you choose from a different Summon Monster list.

[Dallium]

Let me see if I get this right.

1) Prepare Mount, using the metamagic Feat Heighten, as a 9th Level spell, in a 9th level slot.

2) Cast Mount.

3) Cast Alter Summoned Monster (ASM).
a) Mount is a Conjuring (summoning) spell, and as such is a vaild target for ASM.
b) a 9th level Mount is a 9th level spell, therefore ANY spell of 9th level or lower can be used to select the new summon. ASM doesn't specify, but lets assume that to qualify, the new summon has to come from a Conjuring (summoning) spell.
c) Pick any monster from Summon Monster IX or lower. It's around for a long time

The ONLY sticking point I could possibly see in the RAW is in the wording of Heighten Spell:

d20pfsrd.com wrote:

You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Emphasis mine. You could, I guess, make the argument that it only raises the EFFECTIVE level, not the ACTUAL level, so you can still only pick from the Summon Monster I list, even though you used a 9th level slot to cast it. I don't think that's a good or correct argument, but I could certainly see someone latching onto it.

EDIT: And if I was the GM, I wouldn't allow Gate, since that's not a Conjuring (summoning) spell, it's teleportation.

[_Ozy_]

DM_Blake wrote:

So let's make this more basic.

If Kyra uses Heighten Spell on a Cure Light Wounds, and she raises it to 4th level and puts it in a 4th level slot - when she casts that, does she cast Cure Light Wounds or Cure Critical Wounds?

Hint: The answer is Cure Light Wounds. It just happens to be harder to counterspell.

If Ezren uses Heighten Spell on a good old fireball, and he raises it all the way to 9th level and puts it in a 9th level slot - when he casts that, does he cast Fireball or Meteor Swarm?

Hint: The answer is Fireball. It just happens to be harder to counter and can penetrate some defensive spells better.

If you use Heighten Spell on a Mount spell, and you raise it to 9th level and put it in a 9th level slot - when you cast that, do you get a Mount spell or a Gate spell?

Answer: Mount. A level 1 spell Heightened to 9th level. Nothing more.

I don't understand these points. Nobody is saying that a 9th level Mount spell turns into a Gate spell, or that Cure Light Wounds 'turns into' Cure Moderate Wounds, are they?

What they are saying is that a 9th level Mount spell qualifies as a 9th level spell for Alter Summoned Monster. And according to RAW, that certainly appears to be the case.

Quote:

Can you alter that mount with Alter Summoned Monster? I think not, because it is not a summoned monster. But the text of the ability says you can use it on any Conjuration(summoning) spell so maybe you can. That's a fair debate.

What is it if not a summoned monster? Are you saying that spells and effects that affect summoned monsters don't affect the mount from the Mount spell? If the Alter Summoned Monster were restricted to the Summon Monster spells, that would be different.

Quote:

But when the dust settles from that debate, your Heightened Mount spell is a level 1 spell that was Heightened, so now you (maybe) can use Alter Summoned Monster to pick something from the level 1 Summon Monster list and summon that (Heightened to 9th level).

Er. no. The Heightened Mount spell WAS a level 1 spell. Now it is a level 9 spell. That's what Heighten Spell does.

Note, you can cast a 1st level spell with a 9th level slot even without the Heighten Spell feat, it just doesn't do anything for you. The feat turns that 1st level spell into a 9th level spell.

[Corsario]

It is obvious, at least to me, that the use of a heightened mount to get a creature from a summon monster list other than 1 for two hours / level is an exploit. It is a way to "play the rules", instead of "playing the game".
But anyway, if we want to deal with the literal text of the rules, what DM Blake is saying is:

Summon Monster I wrote:

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table: Summon Monster. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

(Emphasis mine).

It doesn't say "The spell conjures one of the creatures from the corresponding Level list on Table: Summon Monster". So a Heightened Summon Monster I is still limited to the Level 1 Summon Monster list. The same would apply to the Mount Spell.
But anyway, this is subject to each DM interpretation. I, for one, wouldn't let you use that "exploit" to get a Level 9 Summon Monster creature for two hours.

[DM_Blake]

Corsario wrote:

I, for one, wouldn't let you use that "exploit" to get a Level 9 Summon Monster creature for two hours.

Not 2 hours.

2 hours PER LEVEL.

By the time you could exploit a 9th level Mount spell this way, you would get your summoned monster for 34 hours (if you're a wizard, for example).

[Dallium]

Corsario wrote:

It is obvious, at least to me, that the use of a heightened mount to get a creature from a summon monster list other than 1 for two hours / level is an exploit. It is a way to "play the rules", instead of "playing the game".

I doubt anyone would seriously argue the contrary. That doesn't alter the rules one iota. Which brings us to:

Corsario wrote:

But anyway, if we want to deal with the literal text of the rules, what DM Blake is saying is:

Summon Monster I wrote:

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table: Summon Monster. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

(Emphasis mine).

It doesn't say "The spell conjures one of the creatures from the corresponding Level list on Table: Summon Monster". So a Heightened Summon Monster I is still limited to the Level 1 Summon Monster list. The same would apply to the Mount Spell.

You're right. A Heightened Summon Monster 1 is limited to level 1 summon monster lists. That's not what Alter Summon does.

d20pfsrd wrote:

The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target.

Heightened Mount isn't a 1st level spell. It's 9th level. You could, if you didn't know Summon Monster IX but did have Heighten Spell, prepare Summon Monster I as a 9th level spell. You cast it. You pick a single creature from the Summon Monster I list. Then you cast ASM. Now you pick a single creature from the Summon Monster IX or lower list.

IMO, this is the intended use of the spell. These mount shenanigans are undoubtedly exploitative. Doesn't mean they aren't RAW legal.

[DM_Blake]

To look at it another way:

An 18th level wizard could summon a Nalfeshnee for 18 rounds with Summon Monster IX.
An 18th level wizard could call a Nalfeshnee for 18 rounds with Gate (or for longer if he bargains and pays a hefty sum of cash).
An 18th level wizard could summon a Nalfeshnee for 21,600 rounds with Alter Summoned Monster and Heightened Mount.

That's the equivalent of casting 1,200 back-to-back Summon Monster IX spells.

"Exploit" is far too nice a word for this cheese. So is "cheese" for that matter.

[Corsario]

Well, the good news is that no player will be able to do that "cheese" in a game of mine. And if you play the game that way... sheeeesh...

[Dallium]

DM_Blake wrote:

To look at it another way:

An 18th level wizard could summon a Nalfeshnee for 18 rounds with Summon Monster IX.
An 18th level wizard could call a Nalfeshnee for 18 rounds with Gate (or for longer if he bargains and pays a hefty sum of cash).
An 18th level wizard could summon a Nalfeshnee for 21,600 rounds with Alter Summoned Monster and Heightened Mount.

That's the equivalent of casting 1,200 back-to-back Summon Monster IX spells.

"Exploit" is far too nice a word for this cheese. So is "cheese" for that matter.

But at the cost of a feat and a 2nd level spell slot! That makes it, no, wait, that's still horribly broken. Any GM would be totally justified in going, "No, that just doesn't work that way."

[Dave Justus]

I believe you could do this. However, it isn't really very useful. The mount spell makes the creature you summon serve as a mount. That is all that is does. It doesn't attack your foes or do anything but server willingly and well as a mount. Altering the creature summoned doesn't change the base spell.

So if you want to spend two spells to ride an earth elemental, it will do that. But it won't give you an earth elemental that can fight your enemies, use special abilities or obey other commands other than 'be a good mount'.

[Dallium]

Dave Justus wrote:

I believe you could do this. However, it isn't really very useful. The mount spell makes the creature you summon serve as a mount. That is all that is does. It doesn't attack your foes or do anything but server willingly and well as a mount. Altering the creature summoned doesn't change the base spell.

So if you want to spend two spells to ride an earth elemental, it will do that. But it won't give you an earth elemental that can fight your enemies, use special abilities or obey other commands other than 'be a good mount'.

Where are you getting that? The full text of the Mount spell is:

Mount wrote:

You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount. The steed serves willingly and well. The mount comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle.

Regular mounts can attack. Regular mounts can use all special abilities the creature/AC has. There is nothing in the language of the spell to suggest the Mount created by the spell behaves any differently.

[voideternal]

DM_Blake wrote:

To look at it another way:

An 18th level wizard could summon a Nalfeshnee for 18 rounds with Summon Monster IX.
An 18th level wizard could call a Nalfeshnee for 18 rounds with Gate (or for longer if he bargains and pays a hefty sum of cash).
An 18th level wizard could summon a Nalfeshnee for 21,600 rounds with Alter Summoned Monster and Heightened Mount.

That's the equivalent of casting 1,200 back-to-back Summon Monster IX spells.

"Exploit" is far too nice a word for this cheese. So is "cheese" for that matter.

Cheesy or not is irrelevant, as this is the Rules forum. We should strive to answer what RAW says.

From reading Heighten Spell and Alter Summoned Monster, I believe RAW allows you to get 2 hour/level summons.

It's up to each individual table and GM and developer / errata to fix exploits like these. It's up to the Rules forum to find these exploits and acknowledge them for what they are.

[DM_Blake]

voideternal wrote:

DM_Blake wrote:

To look at it another way:

An 18th level wizard could summon a Nalfeshnee for 18 rounds with Summon Monster IX.
An 18th level wizard could call a Nalfeshnee for 18 rounds with Gate (or for longer if he bargains and pays a hefty sum of cash).
An 18th level wizard could summon a Nalfeshnee for 21,600 rounds with Alter Summoned Monster and Heightened Mount.

That's the equivalent of casting 1,200 back-to-back Summon Monster IX spells.

"Exploit" is far too nice a word for this cheese. So is "cheese" for that matter.

Cheesy or not is irrelevant, as this is the Rules forum. We should strive to answer what RAW says.

From reading Heighten Spell and Alter Summoned Monster, I believe RAW allows you to get 2 hour/level summons.

It's up to each individual table and GM and developer / errata to fix exploits like these. It's up to the Rules forum to find these exploits and acknowledge them for what they are.

I already acknowledged that RAW seems to allow it and then threw my hat in the ring that RAI is choking and dying on this smelly cheese. I think both are valid in this forum, especially if both are discussed in the same post - which I did.

[kyrt-ryder]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Incidentally, we finally have a means for Sorcerers to be good summoners. Rather than blowing spell known after spell known into the summoning concept every spell level, they don't even take Summon Monster. Start with Mount and Summon Monster 1, picks up Alter Summon and trades out Summon Monster 1 at level 4 and never looks back.

Unfortunately, this does have the negative effect of only allowing the Sorcerer to bring a summon with him into battle rather than call the right one at the right time but it's actually viable and leaves him with spells known for other things.

[voideternal]

DM_Blake wrote:

I already acknowledged that RAW seems to allow it and then threw my hat in the ring that RAI is choking and dying on this smelly cheese. I think both are valid in this forum, especially if both are discussed in the same post - which I did.

That's fair. I was hesitant to bring up RAI in the rules forums, but I guess everything that's not house-rules are okay.

Speaking of RAI, I'm not entirely clear what the RAI of Alter Summoned Monster is. If I summon 1d4+1 Vrocks with Summon Monster IX, does RAI let me turn one of the Vrocks into a Glabrezu? (I think RAW lets me do this)

[xavier c]

so you can now have that Succubus harem you always wanted.

[avr]

If Heightened Mount smells too cheesy there's at least one other spell you could use for this - Eagle Aerie (or Summon Accuser, mentioned in the thread someone linked here.) The eagles will vanish after one fight, the accuser after 10 min/level, but being able to precast your summons is still valuable.

I didn't invent this combo, no.

[Rynjin]

avr wrote:

I didn't invent this combo, no.

I saw it while lurking TGDMB yesterday, was wondering how long it would take to get here.

The crux of this matter is whether or not Heighten Spell actually changes the spell's level.

Which I say the answer to is no, based on the wording of the Feat itself. It changes the EFFECTIVE spell level for "all effects dependent on spell level".

But it does not make the spell actually a higher level spell. Just EFFECTIVELY a higher level.

Alter Summoned Monster makes you choose an option from "a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target", and Mount is still a 1st level spell, even if the spell level based variables are heightened.

Decent way to get Bloody Skeletons for free for hours/level though.

Wand of Mount becomes an even better trap killer.

[LazarX]

Dallium wrote:

b) a 9th level Mount is a 9th level spell,

This is where you (and others) make your mistake. Mount is not a 9th level spell, it is a First Level spell heightened to be 9th level for purposes of spell save DC's and interactions with other spells that would block spells based on spell level. In all other aspects it is still that same First level spell.

[Dallium]

Rynjin wrote:

The crux of this matter is whether or not Heighten Spell actually changes the spell's level.

Which I say the answer to is no, based on the wording of the Feat itself. It changes the EFFECTIVE spell level for "all effects dependent on spell level".

But it does not make the spell actually a higher level spell. Just EFFECTIVELY a higher level.

Called it.

That's not what the feat says. It says:

Heighten Spell wrote:

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies.

The key phrases here are "unlike other metamagic feats," and "actually increases the effective level of the spell." Other metamagic feats require you to prepare spells in higher slots without increasing the spell level. An empowered maximized fireball is still a level 3 spell. A Heightened Fireball in a 9th level slot is actually a 9th level spell. Hence "actually increases the effective level of the spell." It doesn't just say "raises the level of the spell" because then people would be going, "I use Heighten one time and now this spell is a higher level forever because that's what the feat says!"

The ONLY reason this argument is coming up is to have some threadbare RAW reason to counter this horribly broken exploit. But you don't NEED a RAW reason to disallow this, common sense and game balance are enough. You shouldn't allow it at your table. If you have a player whining at you that its RAW, tell them to pound sand. If they can't see that they shouldn't be allowed to extend a round/level spell to 2 hours/level, how can playing with them be any fun?

[LazarX]

Dallium wrote:

The ONLY reason this argument is coming up is to have some threadbare RAW reason to counter this horribly broken exploit. But you don't NEED a RAW reason to disallow this, common sense and game balance are enough. You shouldn't allow it at your table. If you have a player whining at you that its RAW, tell them to pound sand. If they can't see that they shouldn't be allowed to extend a round/level spell to 2 hours/level, how can playing with them be any fun?

That's pretty much exactly what I'll do if anyone tries to either pull this off on me when I'm judging PFS, or if they try to bully a PFS judge at a table that I'm sitting at. PFS Judges do have discretion to shut this kind of Rawyering down.

[_Ozy_]

LazarX wrote:

Dallium wrote:

b) a 9th level Mount is a 9th level spell,

This is where you (and others) make your mistake. Mount is not a 9th level spell, it is a First Level spell heightened to be 9th level for purposes of spell save DC's and interactions with other spells that would block spells based on spell level. In all other aspects it is still that same First level spell.

No, Dude, they are not making a mistake.

The Heighten feat is quite clear and you are ignoring what it says:

Quote:

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).

A heightened mount is a 9th level spell because the feat says it is, and it furthermore explains that it is the 9th level spell for all effects relating to spell level.

It couldn't be any more clear than that. This is RAW.

[Wrath]

The alter summon monster spell changes the creature but no other conditions of the spell.

Since summon Mount lets you summon something that serves as a mount, that's all the new creature does too.

You can ride it. That's it.

[LazarX]

_Ozy_ wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Dallium wrote:

b) a 9th level Mount is a 9th level spell,

This is where you (and others) make your mistake. Mount is not a 9th level spell, it is a First Level spell heightened to be 9th level for purposes of spell save DC's and interactions with other spells that would block spells based on spell level. In all other aspects it is still that same First level spell.

No, Dude, they are not making a mistake.

The Heighten feat is quite clear and you are ignoring what it says:

Quote:

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).

A heightened mount is a 9th level spell because the feat says it is, and it furthermore explains that it is the 9th level spell for all effects relating to spell level.

It couldn't be any more clear than that. This is RAW.

So what? Quoting RAW does not make your text right. Especially when you're deliberately ignoring context that gets in the way of your exploit. I'm done repeating myself. No one will get away with this in any table I run, and if someone wishes to report me to PFS campaign leadership for saying so, I can only say I invite them to do so.