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You know, I'm having difficulty finding Augment Calling for some reason.
You aren't allowed to use it to summon a single, two hit die outsider, in addition to what you normally do?
Would that option just be right out? I thought it sort of looked like you could.
*shrugs*
I still think that having something multiply a spell duration 1200 times is a mistake.
Wonder how long it will take to errata...
This spell functions like lesser planar binding, except that you may call a single creature of 12 HD or less, or up to three creatures of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 12.
Benefit(s): Choose a subtype of outsider, such as angel or elemental. When using the planar ally or planar binding spells, you can call 2 additional Hit Dice of outsiders with the chosen subtype.
You change only the total, not the maximum HD, they are different limits.
Maibe the RAI is that you increase the maximum HD limit, but RAW it don't touch that.
When using the planar ally or planar binding spells, she can call 2 additional Hit Dice of outsiders with the chosen subtype, and those creatures gain temporary hit points equal to her class level, a +1 profane bonus on saving throws, and a +1 profane bonus to the caster level DC for effects that would banish, dismiss, or dispel them.
Same problem, you change the total HD, not the maximum limit on a single creatrue, you are stills truck with 12 HD outsiders.
"I choose to summon up to three outsiders whose HD total 14 or less. In this case, one 14 HD outsider. "
You guys are inventing a distinction that isn't there.
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"I choose to summon up to three outsiders whose HD total 14 or less. In this case, one 14 HD outsider. "
You guys are inventing a distinction that isn't there.
It is there.
Condition one: "you may call a single creature of 12 HD or less" unchanged by the abilities.Condition two, clanged by the abilities: "you may call up to three creatures of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 14".
You must respect both statements to follow the spell instructions. You don't get to respect half of the limitations of a spell and say "that is how it work".
Actually it happen with several spells, you get ways to increase the number of targets/objects/creature, etc. but your upper cap on what kind of stuff you get stay the same.
"I choose to summon up to three outsiders whose HD total 14 or less. In this case, one 14 HD outsider. "
You guys are inventing a distinction that isn't there.
I prefer to think of it as introducing more options, not restricting myself to a single definition.
Also, if, in fact, this feat ISN'T as good as people think (maybe it just adds two dice without raising the maximum per creature!) then we need to recognize that.
There are feats that stink.
Just because you WANT this to be awesome doesn't mean it IS awesome.
Diego Rossi sums it up nicely.
I can't stand summoning critters, too much to keep track of.
One pet is good enough for me.
But seriously, is there a PFS stance on this?
I made a thread and asked them to ban it. It's under consideration. I was pleasantly surprised by the quick response and general reasonableness of the Society forums.
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Augment Calling explicitly works on Lesser Planar Binding.
Lesser Planar Binding does not allow multiple creatures.
Reading into a mechanic to intentionally try to make it weaker is bad practice guys. [Granted I've seen an entire subset of posters on these boards who seem to REALLY get off on doing so, LazarX, Diego... etc.]
EDIT:
The feat doesn't actually talk about increasing limits of creatures hit dice, it simply adds dice to the spell.The spell doesn't have 'limits' it has hit dice.
Target one elemental or outsider with 6 HD or lessThe higher level spells function 'as Lesser planar binding' but they ramp up the Hit Dice and allow you to divide those hit dice among multiple creatures.
As written the text don't increase the 2 HD limit of the planar ally/planar binding spell.
It can easily be RAI, but it is not RAW until errated or FAQued
I dunno, I think it allows for the summoning of an additional creature, I really don't see why it wouldn't.
Isn't the whole point of feats to change existing rules to allow for more options?
Kyrt, the reason I think it allows for this is because the feat says so:
"When using the planar ally or planar binding spells, you can call 2 additional Hit Dice of outsiders with the chosen subtype."
outsiders, plural. It doesn't say an outsider with two additional hit dice.
Had they put that 's' in brackets, I might think differently. But they did not.
I like how all of this is completely mute because the planar binding spell gives you two options
a)conjure a single creature with up to 12HD
b)conjure up to three creatures of the same kind with up to a total of 12HD
At least one of the "12HD" numbers gets changed to 14HD
There are no other constraints on what can be conjured.
Now, people here are arguing that the HD increase only applies to the second option.
Great. In fact, lets forget about the first entirely for a reason I will explain momentarily. Here is our "new" spell.
a)conjure up to three creatures of the same kind with up to a total of 14HD (side note - "same kind" means no earth elemental tacked on)
In the target line, the text becomes
Targets up to three elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 14 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart when they appear
OK...so I take the new spell's option a). I choose to conjure a Monadic Deva Angel. Great. That is a single creature. 1 creature is within the bounds of "up to three creatures". 1 is less than or equal to 3. And since there is just one creature, the conjured creatures are all obviously of the same kind. Now, the Deva is 14HD. I am allowed up to...14HD. Oh joy, I am just within the limits. The angel is a legal target. As it turns out, the first option in the spell that we forgot about isn't even necessary (but was probably put there for clarity). It is actually included in the "up to 3" option.
Are we done?
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I like how all of this is completely mute because the planar binding spell gives you two options
a)conjure a single creature with up to 12HD
b)conjure up to three creatures of the same kind with up to a total of 12HD
At least one of the "12HD" numbers gets changed to 14HD
There are no other constraints on what can be conjured.Now, people here are arguing that the HD increase only applies to the second option.
Great. In fact, lets forget about the first entirely for a reason I will explain momentarily. Here is our "new" spell.
a)conjure up to three creatures of the same kind with up to a total of 14HD (side note - "same kind" means no earth elemental tacked on)
In the target line, the text becomes
Targets up to three elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 14 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart when they appearOK...so I take the new spell's option a). I choose to conjure a Monadic Deva Angel. Great. That is a single creature. 1 creature is within the bounds of "up to three creatures". 1 is less than or equal to 3. And since there is just one creature, the conjured creatures are all obviously of the same kind. Now, the Deva is 14HD. I am allowed up to...14HD. Oh joy, I am just within the limits. The angel is a legal target. As it turns out, the first option in the spell that we forgot about isn't even necessary (but was probably put there for clarity). It is actually included in the "up to 3" option.
Are we done?
Generally, if a spell has multiple conditions you must met all of them, you don't get to chose arbitrarily to apply only those that you prefer.
The best option is to click on the FAQ I made. it i reasonably neutral and it is about the CRB, so there is a decent chance it will get a reply.
Until them, both interpretations can be valid.
I like how all of this is completely mute because the planar binding spell gives you two options
a)conjure a single creature with up to 12HD
b)conjure up to three creatures of the same kind with up to a total of 12HD
At least one of the "12HD" numbers gets changed to 14HD
There are no other constraints on what can be conjured.Now, people here are arguing that the HD increase only applies to the second option.
Great. In fact, lets forget about the first entirely for a reason I will explain momentarily. Here is our "new" spell.
a)conjure up to three creatures of the same kind with up to a total of 14HD (side note - "same kind" means no earth elemental tacked on)
In the target line, the text becomes
Targets up to three elementals or outsiders, totaling no more than 14 HD, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart when they appearOK...so I take the new spell's option a). I choose to conjure a Monadic Deva Angel. Great. That is a single creature. 1 creature is within the bounds of "up to three creatures". 1 is less than or equal to 3. And since there is just one creature, the conjured creatures are all obviously of the same kind. Now, the Deva is 14HD. I am allowed up to...14HD. Oh joy, I am just within the limits. The angel is a legal target. As it turns out, the first option in the spell that we forgot about isn't even necessary (but was probably put there for clarity). It is actually included in the "up to 3" option.
Are we done?
Generally, if a spell has multiple conditions you must met all of them, you don't get to chose arbitrarily to apply only those that you prefer.
The best option is to click on the FAQ I made. it i reasonably neutral and it is about the CRB, so there is a decent chance it will get a reply.
Until them, both interpretations can be valid.
This spell functions like lesser planar binding, except that you may call a single creature of 12 HD or less, or up to three creatures of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 12. Each creature gets a saving throw, makes an independent attempt to escape, and must be individually persuaded to aid you.
The spell gives you two options. One is a single creature. One is between zero to three creatures (that's what "up to three" means).
Let me reiterate. The spell says it behaves like lesser planar binding...
except that you may call a single creature of 12 HD or less
, or
up to three creatures of the same kind whose Hit Dice total no more than 12.
Because of the wonderful world of how words work, the term "or" means* that at least one of the sets of conditions must be fulfilled. Either 1 creature of up to XHD(X=12 or X=14, doesn't actually matter) or up to three(0-3, because that's how English works) creatures of up to 14HD(must be 14HD because the feat needs to change at least one HD number). I showed above that a single creature of 14HD fulfills the second set of conditions, therefor it satisfies the constraints of the spell described in that sentence, because English.
FYI, I already clicked FAQ despite how silly this discussion is.
*I am assuming the "or" is inclusive - it could be interpreted as "exclusive or" but that would mean you couldn't summon a single creature unless you had the +2HD feat AND you rule that the HD increase only applies to the "up to three" option(and then only a 13-14HD creature). This is clearly nonsense
Benefit(s): Choose a subtype of outsider, such as angel or elemental. When using the planar ally or planar binding spells, you can call 2 additional Hit Dice of outsiders with the chosen subtype. You also gain an additional benefit depending on what spell you are casting.
I choose to call 2 additional hit dice of outsiders with the chosen subtype... as an elemental. Small elemental shows up to carry my bags and care for my horse.
No, scratch that. The two additional hit dice of outsiders I want to call will be... Aasimars. Two of them. Here you go guys, here's the armor polish and whetstones, fix up the fighters gear. Thanks.
No-one has explained why I can't do this.
My approach in NO way violates the written feat. I have cast the spell, I have called additional hit dice of outsiders, where is the problem?
This feat modifies the spell to do something it doesn't normally do... if only there were a precedent for this (all metamagic feats)...
If only there were some example to show that feats aren't always great (Groundling feat, Cosmopolitan feat).
Maybe this feat does allow for more powerful creatures, maybe it doesn't. In my experience, effects that allow for increased power usually say so, this one just looks like a minor add-on to an existing spell.
WANTING it to be more powerful doesn't change the text in the feat.
I'm very curious about what the FAQ will say on this, I do understand it could go either way (or allow both interpretations).
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Ummm guys, the rules say we can do this thing.
No they do not, because we do not want them to! Commence purposely misquoting and excluding relevant rules text
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
Emphasis mine. You can't say it doesn't actually increase the effective level of the spell, because it does.
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
This is not ambiguous. The spell's effective level is actually higher. All effects dependent on spell level, such as interactions with other spells as established by written precedent in the rules text, are treated at the spell's new effective level.
The only debate to be had is whether or not a mount summoned by the Mount spell can do anything other than be a mount. Can it attack? Ultimately that comes down to the DM, since there are rules which conflict directly with each other.
Trust me, I'm a doctor.
I would like to bring attention back to the original posters exploit:
He found a way to get a summoned monster with x1200 duration.
That just CAN'T be right.
What needs clarification here?
Exclude the Mount spell from this exploit? Alter how Heighten Spell works?
Something is clearly broken, no matter what the text says, this can NOT be how it was intended to work.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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What needs clarification here?
Exclude the Mount spell from this exploit? Alter how Heighten Spell works?
The simplest fix is to limit the duration of the summon to some limit like 1 min/level remaining.
You can't exclude Mount, as there will be more 10 min/level or longer conjuration summons spells printed.
You can't modify Heighten and you can't change heighten.
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What needs clarification here?
Exclude the Mount spell from this exploit? Alter how Heighten Spell works?
The simplest fix is to limit the duration of the summon to some limit like 1 min/level remaining.
You can't exclude Mount, as there will be more 10 min/level or longer conjuration summons spells printed.
You can't modify Heighten and you can't change heighten.
You're not my dad! I can do what I want!
*runs out the door*
So can I have my 2HD earth elemental butler or not?
You can if you're casting standard Planar Binding or greater. Lesser Planar Binding only allows one creature and Augment Calling doesn't change that.
Really?
Benefit(s): Choose a subtype of outsider, such as angel or elemental. When using the planar ally or planar binding spells, you can call 2 additional Hit Dice of outsiders with the chosen subtype. You also gain an additional benefit depending on what spell you are casting.
I'm pretty sure it does.
Feats alter how spells work, I'm gonna take my extra two hit dice as a 2HD elemental (earth) butler. Thank you, and goodnight.
It says I can.
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What needs clarification here?
Exclude the Mount spell from this exploit? Alter how Heighten Spell works?
The simplest fix is to limit the duration of the summon to some limit like 1 min/level remaining.
You can't exclude Mount, as there will be more 10 min/level or longer conjuration summons spells printed.
You can't modify Heighten and you can't change heighten.
The Alter Summoned Monster spell is badly worded and should be restricted to only affect Summon Monster # spells, as it was probably intended.
The Alter Summoned Monster spell is badly worded and should be restricted to only affect Summon Monster # spells, as it was probably intended.What needs clarification here?
Exclude the Mount spell from this exploit? Alter how Heighten Spell works?
The simplest fix is to limit the duration of the summon to some limit like 1 min/level remaining.
You can't exclude Mount, as there will be more 10 min/level or longer conjuration summons spells printed.
You can't modify Heighten and you can't change heighten.
Not to be "dickish" but... durh.
If it were intended JUST for Summon Monster spells it would say so. Perhaps the designers didn't realize the results of combining it with Heightened Mount, but they definitely intended it to work with other Conjuration[summoning] spells.The Alter Summoned Monster spell is badly worded and should be restricted to only affect Summon Monster # spells, as it was probably intended.What needs clarification here?
Exclude the Mount spell from this exploit? Alter how Heighten Spell works?
The simplest fix is to limit the duration of the summon to some limit like 1 min/level remaining.
You can't exclude Mount, as there will be more 10 min/level or longer conjuration summons spells printed.
You can't modify Heighten and you can't change heighten.
Yes, I'm sure x1200 duration is exactly what they had in mind.
I did say they may not have anticipated Mount + Alter Summoned Monster.
So... as mature adults... we might agree not to use it this way?