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So, I'm playing in a group that, despite having generous stats rolled, have not only built their characters somewhat poorly, but also have exceedingly poor system mastery, as well as almost no understanding of character abilities or even remotely good combat tactics.
Try as I may to teach them, they also all happen to be really opposed to help, trusting in what, so far, has been DM unluck to get through the encounters we've faced, despite several close encounters.
So, here's my question: What kind of character an I make that can carry the party? I wouldn't normally ask this question, and so far I've focused on trying to improve the group through buffing/debuffing/combat maneuvers. But support only works when the support given is used well, and mine never has been. So... thoughts?
Synthesist Summoner, if using the original (chained) summoner. People have said it can solo most situations. :P
On a more serious note, I'd suggest either a Paladin (combat, saves, and healing make you a solid central pillar for the party), or a control focused Sorcerer (make encounters easy enough for them to finish).
Master Summoner with a Skill Eidolon if you starting at level 1. Disposable meat shields, an Eidolon with good skills, and the ability to serve as a face. Very straight forward and strong out the gate.
Druids are always good at filling this role, with their free meat shield and ability to patch up less competent allies. You also have the most important skills for keeping the party safe, Perception.
What level? A flag bearer buff hard is going to give significant flat bonuses to all allies, the benefits can't be used improperly or messed up.
A witch slumber/evil eye bebuffer with cackle to extent it is another flat out penalty that the group can't mess up. Just tell them ahead of time to use coup de grace on the slumbering enemies. If they ignore that, just target opponents that are out of the way.
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This really comes down to how important it is for the characters to survive for the longevity of the group.
Some folks don't learn until they experience failure themselves. This lets them reflect and then try other things out.
The group sounds resistant to your assistance so far, which means they're probably enjoying themselves. Perhaps this is because they are being foolish yet surviving, maybe its because they aren't as seriously invested in the game as you are.
My advice is to actually not build something to "Carry the Party". Just build something you're happy playing. If you don't want it to die because of the other group members silly antics, then go the summoner. Your Eidolon can buy you time to escape if things turn very bad. If you don't mind losing a character or two then just build whatever you want.
I would be looking at the reasons why you want to carry the group to be honest. Try not to be in a situation where you're the only one who actually cares what happens to the characters. I'm sure the DM wants things to keep going, but if they're happy replacing characters in a campaign then maybe you need to rethink your approach too. If he/she is having an issue with their antics as well, then its time for a chat. If its just you though.....
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Trust me, the campaign is filled with too many creatures immune to sleep for me to do the slumber hex thing. And, believe it or not, a majority of my allies couldn't hit regularly even if I went super buffer/debuffer, and even if they did hit they deal such paltry amounts of damage that my buffs were basically inconsequential.
I know, it sounds crazy. Just trust me. Support will not work for these guys. Any group that routinely decides to take no action for absolutely no reason will not benefit from buffs.
What level?
Maybe you're playing with the wrong group? It sounds like they want to play one way but don't come out and say as much. Maybe talk to the GM and see if they'll tone down the challenge if you tone down your character?
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Well, what I really enjoy playing is support characters, but support characters don't work when the party doesn't actually function like a normal party. I'm playing at this point because I really like our DM, and despite their tomfoolery I actually really like my fellow players. They're just terrible at the game. The adventure we're going through is also interesting, and I'm enjoying the setting.
My main problem isn't that they aren't invested in their characters: They're enjoying the roleplaying aspect of the game. The issue is that they've been making TERRIBLE combat decisions that have not only resulted in the deaths of two party members before (one of which was mine), but would have resulted in several other character deaths if not for the poor luck of the DM.
My desire to carry the group doesn't arise because I care about the game, but from the fact that I want to enjoy doing something on my turn, and helping them in almost any capacity through support/debuffing has, thus far, been a complete waste of time. Therefore, I just want a character that can, himself, survive and be productive without the need for the others.
We're almost 8th level.
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Cool, nice clarification.
Go Summoner. Build a tanking Eidolon and choose spells that buff it and allow you to survive. Fly, invis, teleport, D-Door are all good for keeping you alive.
The eidolon can die horribly and you are still functional because you get summons and get to cast spells and get to buff.
Also, UMD means you can invest in wands and scrolls not available on your list so you can heal and also do the damage thing when necessary.
A summoner never has a round where they can't do something (either through the Eidolon or through the summoner themselves.)
However, let it be known that I believe the Summoner is a class that needs toning down in its power. There are certain archetypes (master summoner and sysntesist) that I think are flat out broken. It is for this power discrepancy that I think makes them a good choice for your personal survival in a game where no one works together.
Well, what I really enjoy playing is support characters, but support characters don't work when the party doesn't actually function like a normal party. I'm playing at this point because I really like our DM, and despite their tomfoolery I actually really like my fellow players. They're just terrible at the game. The adventure we're going through is also interesting, and I'm enjoying the setting.
My main problem isn't that they aren't invested in their characters: They're enjoying the roleplaying aspect of the game. The issue is that they've been making TERRIBLE combat decisions that have not only resulted in the deaths of two party members before (one of which was mine), but would have resulted in several other character deaths if not for the poor luck of the DM.
My desire to carry the group doesn't arise because I care about the game, but from the fact that I want to enjoy doing something on my turn, and helping them in almost any capacity through support/debuffing has, thus far, been a complete waste of time. Therefore, I just want a character that can, himself, survive and be productive without the need for the others.
We're almost 8th level.
Core rules/Paizo products only or 3PP allowed?
Let them die in game and save yourself, so that they understand they can't always rely on others and survive.
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A somewhat absurd and very entertaining build that I end up posting from time to time is a Martial Artist 1/ Separatist Cleric of Hei-Feng X that combines potent casting, debuffing and melee:
Human or Half-Elf: 14STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 16/18WIS, 8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack
Martial Artist 1/ Separatist Cleric of Hei-Feng X
Domain: Chaos\Protean, Separatist Domain: Trickery\Deception
1. +Human or Ancestral Arms: Weapon Proficiency: 9-Ring Broadsword / Channel Smite
2[Martial Artist]. +Monk: Dodge
3. Guided Hand: 9-Ring Broadsword
5. Power Attack
7. Cornugon Stun
9. Mantis Style
Weapon - "9-Crow": +1 Conductive, Cruel 9-Ring Broadsword
Since you have a Monk level and Guided Hand, Wisdom is used for your AB, AC, and spellcasting. With Flurry of Blows, Divine Favor, Fate's Favored and Power Attack you can put out quite respectable damage with your sword in two hands. Your AC in a robe is actually quite effective thanks to stacked wisdom.
When you strike with your sword, you can activate the following things:
- Touch of Chaos Domain Power through your attack with Conductive
- Stunning Fist through your attack with Cornugon Stun
- Sickened condition on targets that already have the shaken condition. You can use the Aura of Doom spell to inflict shaken on everything around you.
- Nauseated condition with the spell Instrument of Agony cast on your sword.
Shaken+Sickened alone is a -4 to enemy attacks and saves and spreads easily, Touch of Chaos screws up all a target's d20 rolls for a round, Nauseated and Stunning Fist both knock targets out of the fight for a bit.
As well as the Aura of Doom spell that you can keep around you all the time (10min/level), you can also activate your Aura of Chaos to cause hilarious chaos among enemies near you.
Lastly, through the Deception subdomain you gain both Mirror Image, which combined with your AC and aura makes you a serious tank, and the spell Confusion for completely screwing up enemy forces at a distance. Oh, and you get a power that can instantly disguise the whole party for a while.
When you put it all together, the enemy is so generally gimped and you're so relatively protected that it's difficult - if not impossible - for things to go sour unless the GM is trying to get you.
It would help to get some horror stories specifics on what exactly is going wrong. If we know what's going bad, we can figure out what kind of character can fill the gaps.
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If your using a high point buy, or rolling stats that are higher then normal. The ability of pet classes is lower then when using a lower point buy. With that classes with eidolon, or animal companion. Do best in over all combat ability.
With out knowing what stats you will have. It is hard to say what would work best. As their are many options depending on what you want.
stuff
Incidentally, there are other ways to go caster/melee/tank with a Cleric/Monk1 or Oracle that don't involve being a chaos worshipper. They're perhaps just not quite as crazy/entertaining. The idea of compressing stats so you can do whatever is needed at a given time (and sometimes more than one thing at a time) remains the same though.
In a similar situation I used a sorcerer, with heavy use of Use Magic Device to cover the necessary healing. You may find spells like Telekinetic Charge useful for giving a strong suggestion as to where you think their characters should be.
The downside is that they may simply prefer a game which is about drama rather than tactics & if so your basically running the combat can turn them off PF fast. You may find it necessary to go with the flow and join them in a game of Fate or Savage Worlds or whatever.
Summoner is good. So is an alchemist already min maxed for combat. You basically need a broken character. Imagine if you were playing solo in an all combat game.
If you were going to run a game with almost no combat, I hope you like Scooby Doo or Agatha Christie. Actually, I do. Keep in mind that you could play the friend in law enforcement all amateur detectives seem to have. Even the great Sherlock Holmes had one.
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But see, there's the kicker: They all enjoy combat. They get bored when there's a lot of roleplaying. So we get to a combat encounter, and the spellcasters are catching allies inside their AoE damage spells that hit multiple allies and a single enemy, or cut allies off from each other to get appropriate aid, and characters are hitting for 1d4+1... at level 7, if they decide to actually take an action on their turn. It's not that they don't like combat: they want way more of it, but they're just mind-blowingly bad.
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But see, there's the kicker: They all enjoy combat. They get bored when there's a lot of roleplaying. So we get to a combat encounter, and the spellcasters are catching allies inside their AoE damage spells that hit multiple allies and a single enemy, or cut allies off from each other to get appropriate aid, and characters are hitting for 1d4+1... at level 7, if they decide to actually take an action on their turn. It's not that they don't like combat: they want way more of it, but they're just mind-blowingly bad.
So... are you playing with 6-year-olds or something? Or are they unaware that the game is entirely cooperative and not in competition with anyone, not even the GM? Are they drinking heavily throughout the session? All of the above? Drunken 6-year-olds trying to one-up each other certainly fits your description...
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Play the character that can never die.
Half-Orc Paladin with Fey Foundling and the Deathless line.
Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored all up in this biznitch.
Badass saves.
Ludicrous healing.
Something takes you below 0? YOU HIT HARDER.
Then heal yourself up with your 4d6+8 (or more!) healing per Lay on Hands.
Become unstoppable.
The only thing that slows you down are all those back rubs you get for the soreness in your shoulders from carrying that team, despite the fact that apparently they're trying to kill you.
What are the other characters?
I once DMed a group with a fighter with Str 6 (crossbow), the Small-sized bard was the tank AND healer, there was a homebrew skill-based magician that didn't max out the spellcasting skill, a wannabe ninja druid, and an Empowered Awakened parrot wizard that only wanted to summon bananas in people's pants.
It was pretty rough. But also pretty fun.
Maybe play a cavalier and try to lead them in battle, shouting out commands and sharing Teamwork feats. Maybe try to do melee battlefield control with Power Attack, Pushing Assault, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still. Or maybe an inquisitor with that spell that lets you share Teamwork feats. Maybe buff the melee dudes with Resist Energy or Communal Resist Energy for the common blasts the sloppy blaster blasts.
Is there an ability or spell or something that lets you buff or protect as an Immediate Action? Kind of like the 5th Edition Nature Cleric's 6th level class feature?
Are they totally resistant to suggestions? Maybe suggest feats, skills, and spells next time they level up. Have your PC throw a party and give the barbarian that normally wields a dagger a shiny new greataxe.
EDIT:
The PC who played the parrot wizard played a goliath ranger in another campaign and LITERALLY carried the party. And their horses. Once, on a tightrope over a river. And she built the fires, hunted AND cooked the food, and led the way through the forest.
And complained about it the whole time. ;-)
Play the character that can never die.
Half-Orc Paladin with Fey Foundling and the Deathless line.
Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored all up in this biznitch.
Badass saves.
Ludicrous healing.
Something takes you below 0? YOU HIT HARDER.
Then heal yourself up with your 4d6+8 (or more!) healing per Lay on Hands.
Become unstoppable.
The only thing that slows you down are all those back rubs you get for the soreness in your shoulders from carrying that team, despite the fact that apparently they're trying to kill you.
And then get Muleback Cords and LITERALLY carry the party as well as figuratively, all the while wading through the enemies and no-selling your allies' misplaced AOE spells! And treat the useless party members as attended objects to use your saves instead of theirs!
EDIT: Amazing campaign idea! One actual PC, and the rest are intelligent magic items all vying for control of the PC!
Those statements aren't contradictory. They can enjoy roleplaying but still get bored if there's too much.
If they are moronic enough to lay down AoE's on the rest of the party for no really good reason there is nothing you can do to help.
Play the character you want and enjoy it while it lasts (aka until the party implodes due to stupidity).
There are a lot of good postings about powerful character builds here, but I think the social facet is at least as important. Scott Wilhelm and others pointed out quite a few things I'd like to emphasize or complement:
a) Many people enjoy figuring out things themselves. Of course they could learn much faster when they get help from teachers. But then it feels like obeying to commands, not like playing your own way. So offer advice when they ask for it or are totally paralyzed with their decisions, but else let them make their bad choices. They will learn and make better decisions later.
b) A stronger party doesn't necessarily have a safer life. I don't know your GM, but personally I increase difficulty as soon as I notice increasing players skill or increasing mechanical power. So the PCs are always in trouble, no matter how much they can dish out or withstand. That way a victory feels much more satisfying.
c) Depending on the GM, a total desaster (all characters dead) may not be the end. It can be a motivation to change playstyle or an opportunity for great roleplay.
d) Given that you have a good connection to the GM, you could ask him to tone down difficulty a bit for now. If it's really necessary - I mean, the party made it to level 7 so far.
I would let them die, but my character wouldn't. :PYou're rolling a new character. Role one that would.
Good Point. It's not like their 1d4+1 damage could kill you if they wanted anyway. Even a coup de grace in your sleep is iffy! :D
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I have a few suggestions on builds that can solo encounters. Their are a few more builds I could recommend. In that most of the party dose not preform actions in combat. I highly recommend high AC build, and/or one that can self heal.
Hunter: I was not impressed with them at first. However after playing one. I have found them to be a extremely strong combat class. With that if your using a high point buy, or high stat roll. They will not be as effective.
Monk1 / Unchained Rogue 3 /Samurai XX: Ability scores Dex<Wis<Con<Int<Str<Cha:
With a unchained rogue finesses giving you dex to damage. Two weapon fighting with Wakizashi. You can achieve a very high AC, and damage. Along with over all high saving throws. This is one of the best options for higher point buy, or high rolled stats. As this build can do more with better stats. (I am playing this build in PFSP. My current plan will put me in the low 30's AC by level 8. With a over all to hit +13 to hit with each weapon, and +9 damage with each weapon. Taking advantage of the wording of unchained rogue dex to damage, and double slice.)
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Those statements aren't contradictory. They can enjoy roleplaying but still get bored if there's too much.They could. It's possible. Excepting that the first statement outright states it's not the case.
Actually, it doesn't. Bloodrealm had the right of it. Emphasis on "A LOT" of roleplaying.
Thanks for all of the advice, everyone. I know making mistakes is part of learning, I just didn't expect it from such an "experienced" group, I suppose.
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I'd just go for a crazy high defense monk - especially with 'generous stats'. Maybe a Dwarf Drunken Master with Wholeness of Body so that you're entirely self-sufficient so long as you have an adequate supply of booze. If the game is set so that those players ever hit anything, you won't have accuracy issues. (the usual weakness of non-Sohei/Unchained monks) Just grab an Agile AoMF and go to town.
Evasion and high dex means that you don't care much if you're in an AOE. Jacked up acrobatics and high movement speed means that you can get around the battlefield with ease even if your buddies throw up obstacles.
At level 7 you could easily make a monk with an AC well into the 30's and all saves at +15 or better vs spells. Whatever happens to the rest of the group - you'd be fine.
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My advice is to make a character like theirs, relax a bit, don't worry about everyone dying and have the most fun you can.
Honestly there is almost never a good outcome for trying to play the game in a different way than the majority of the other players. If you can't play their way, then don't play.
Trying to 'carry the party' is likely to lose you friends.
Play a Druid.
Let them die. A lot.
Keep reincarnating them into all sorts of weird races.
Hilarity may or may not ensue.
That would be a frustrating situation for me. I like a control focused wizard instead of a sorcerer.
You would hang back, and charm the monsters that try to sneak up behind. Then send your new minions into the death zone. Note that your 'buddies' will have already blown their most powerful area of effect spells on the door guards. Remember, utility spells like comprehend languages belong on scrolls, not in memory.
For role play, the GM may agree that word is getting around about that party and their so called tactics. NPCs will be drawing them maps and refusing to lead them anywhere.
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Roll a druid, start with str 14 or more. Cast ant haul on yourself. Wildshape into a huge badass dinosaur and ask the party to get on. You're now carrying the party :D Sorry. Could not resist the pun.
On a more serious note:
Rory's cleric looks good, except I would use variant channeling, rulership, so be a cleric of Horus.
We're looking at a hangover cleric here, so I would use the following stat array(after racial but no ability boosts):
10 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 16 wis, 18 cha
On an aasimar/human taking dual talent. Aasimar is better.
Traits: Sacred conduit, reactionary
Lv 1: Scion of war -> add cha to init mod instead of dex.
Lv 3: Selective channel
Lv 5: Boon companion
Lv 7: Versatile channel
With a +6 to init you're likely to go first, so you can dazelock everyone (including your party:p) out of combat, if you wanted ^^
I don't see on a casual glance, anything about Horus and no undead allowed, so if you want to, you can get your undead army. Undead will not get any use out of bardic performance as they are immune to mind affecting.
Another idea would to use Brewer's guide for blockbuster admixture wizards with a cross blooded sorc dip for really BOOM! Fireballs. Unfortunately I don't know whats going to happen if combat starts next to you, not even selective spell can unselect so many people, and I suspect they wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of 10d6+26 fire dmg at lv 7.
Maybe they will learn how to control their AoEs in a hurry?
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Posting this micro guide from my phone. Pardon the sloppiness. For this we're going to need a Vanilla Summoner. Try to sneak in with the APG version if you can but Unchained will work. Don't go Master Summoner: its the strongest way to play but you want at least a thin veil of giving a crap about balance to not tip off the DM/group. Plus Eidolons are more fun anyway.
Charisma is high, but make Con your highest score since you'll likely take hits from poorly aimed friendly fire. Plus your Eidolon will be a workhorse and you want to feed it HP and still be well off yourself. Human and Half Elf are obvious winners but Gnomes get an honerable mention. Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summons, Superior Summons and Improved Initiative are your feats. Toughness and Resilient Eidolon are alright, and Extra Evolutions is good for UC summoners. Evolved Summons is fun and thematic but only works for summoning single creatures so it's strictly for funsies.
Azata for free weapon proficiency if UC, or just take Martial Weapon feat on a biped if APG. Power Attack and Combat Reflexes come next. The Eidolon should have a +1 or +2 weapon, 2-handed and made of adamantine. Reach weapon if Unchained, Non reach if APG. I'll explain later just trust me. Other than that the top priority of gear is the summoner's survival. Con belt and Resist cloak, plus wands of Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon for between fights.
For skills, summoner should max UMD and a knowledge that the party doesn't cover. Eidolon gets perception and whatever utility skills the party lacks. The skilled evolution is sleeper OP so don't be afraid to have it moonlight as the party skillmonkey if your rogue isn't pulling their weight. Bonus: an Eidolon with good UMD can double your buffing efficiency with the right scrolls.
APG Evolution priority is Large Size > 2 extra arms > max natural primary attacks with claws/bite > Flight > Skilled (Perception) > Natural Armor > Resist Energy (whatever the party blaster hits you with more often.)
Unchained is same as above but ignore extra arms and don't worry abkut natural attacks since your weapon is the workhorse here and you want to spend more time abusing Attacks of Opportunity than full attacking.
Treat every session like it's a solo campaign with some colorful support NPCs that you're obligated to escort. Starting with the Eidolon is best if you expect ambushes, otherwise lead into fights with multiple monsters from a step below your highest Summon Monster casting from the SLA. this guide is your best friend. Also, bringing note cards with the Augmented stats of your best/favorite summons are mandatory, no questions asked. The trick with your SLA is that you can still cast Summon Eidolon to have both out at the same time. Minions up front, Hell Drop the Eidolon in flanking positions. You now outnumber most encounters and every one of your pets is 110% disposable.
Spells are simple. Buffs are key, but ONLY after your summons are out. Haste is love. Create pit ruins golems. Evolution Surge is even scarier than pre-errata Paragon Surge. A lesser extend rod will give you a lot of mileage out of your buff spells if you prebuff right before fights. You can Summon while invisible: abuse this mercilessly.
At level 9, APG Eidolons become straight up unethical. That version's Max Attack cap only applies to natural attacks. You also get Multiattack for free at this level. Remember how I said get extra arms and a greatsword? Have fun with that.
At level 10 you get Aspect, the coolest non-Eidolon ability in the game. Give yourself undispellabe wings to stay the hell out of danger and let the Eidolon get by on the Climb evolution and/or casts of the flying spell of your choice.
I'm wondering if these guys are really even trying or if they're intentionally going for goofy slapstick-style dumb. d4+1 damage is why halflings with shortswords are told to stay away from the frontline unless really needed.
Note that dumb doesn't mean goofy slapstick. I've been toying with building a monk with good Wis, super Con, and tanked Int, and otherwise styling it after a certain famed fictional boxer. Aligned LG, too. Good person overall, generally understands people..but not exactly going to win awards for academia. (If I could only get past the hurdle of hating to be penalised on skill points..)
I just want to say that I'm about to start a houserules game with several players of questionable skill or understanding of the rules, and this thread has given me a LOT of a insight and possible builds for a backup character after the inevtible total party wipe.
I'm sure the game is going to be fun, but I think the chance of survival will be low. XD