Ok, I noticed a lot of people complaining about how you can't use a lot of your abilities in your social guise. One thing I was thinking that could potentially remedy this and create for a muhc more flushed out character is having each ability apply a ability or bonus in your Combat Guise and seperate bonus while in your social guise.
For instance, the ability that allows the Avenger to pounce could potentially grant the Vigilante a +4 bonus on Intimidate or some such as he also learns to "pounce" on weakness in social situations.
What do you all think?
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Batman as an example might not be the best idea for this discussion: he is the Batman; Bruce Wayne is merely a disguise. But Peter Parker and Clark Kent for instance are people in their own right. They can do things Spider-Man or Superman cannot, and almost seem to have their own agendas. They'd need access to those Talents in their social guise.
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they could do it because they are, in actuality, the same person.
Yes. And no. Physically they are indeed the same person, capable of doing the same things. But mentally they are not. I truly believe that Superman isn't capable of being the demure, unnoteworthy person Clark Kent is. When he puts on the cape, he becomes this paragon of virtue and effectively must act it.
The superhero will not remain passive or silent, while the social persona could stand by and watch, waiting for the right moment to change. They really do have different capabilities due to their different mindsets.| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
And yet both Clark Kent and Superman can benchpress a white dwarf and shoot frickin' laser beams.
I think a large part of the problem is that the cool stuff for the social persona depends largely on other parts of Ultimate Intrigue. Parts we're not allowed to see, and therefore not allowed to playtest.
I feel like the Vigilante is having the same problem the Occultist (class, not the group of classes) playtest had; with so much of what the class is supposed to be absent from the playtest it is very difficult to give any meaningful criticism.
VRMH they are both the same person. They don't change into different people. They just have to hide certain things. It is just like how teenagers are viewed as innocent by their parents when they are out having sex, smoking, and drinking. They(heroes) hold back until they change because the them showing their true abilities could cause more trouble(or lives) than if they do not stand back and let bad things happen until they can change.
Another example is one of my former coworkers who was very professional at work, but was using profanity and other nonsocially acceptable behavior away from the job. It would be no different if she was some foul-mouthed vigilante away from the job, just using the job as a cover.
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So, what happens when character's alignment-dependent ability sees you are no longer the same alignment? Here are some situations that came to mind (some of which only arise from cross-classing):
- an improved familiar who adopted you because you were within one step of its alignment
- a god who gave you divine spells because you were/are within one step
- a cross-classed paladin, monk, or barbarian or a prestige class with an alignment prerequisite
- a phylactery of faithfulness (gives what type of counsel?)
- you get the idea (please feel free to add any that I missed)
Does the dual-personality also fool the link to your deity? Can each personality have a different god?
In regards to some of the bullets listed, I can look to the description and just assume that they are temporarily suppressed, but others get into more of a grey area as to just how costly the price may be. It might be good to elaborate more in the description's text.
As for the topic of using powers in your social identity, maybe a feat can give you limited access to your vigilante powers, sort of like barroom brawler feat works.
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Maybe if everytime time you chose a talent, you could also choose a talent for your social persona. So at second level and every even level you get two talents, one social, one vigilante. Then you can have social talents like:
Bumbling Defense: You gain a +1 dodge bonus in your social identity. This bonus increase by +1 at 4th and every 4 levels after. At sixth level you gain Evasion. At 12 level you gain the Feat Deflect Arrows. Whenever an attack misses your AC, you successfully use your Evasion or use the Deflect Arrows feat while in your social identity you can make a Bluff check as a free action to convince onlookers that you escaped danger through dumb luck, sheer coincidence or other reason.
Accidental Attack: As a free action you can roll an opposed bluff check resisted by an opponents Sense Motive. If you win you can attack him and make it look like it was an accident. This attack can use wathever bonuses and abilities you would gain from your Vigilante Talents. If you fail the bluff check you cannot attack but can still take other actions as normal.
Hidden Casting: You can cast any spell you gain from your vigilante talents but only if you succeed in your checks to make a concealed casting. Prereq Concealed Casting.
Shine Through: You can let some of your vigilante facade into your face for a moment, gaining the intimidate bonus of your vigilante identity for a single check. You lose you disguise bonus and immunity to divinations from Dual Identity against the target of the intimidation check for a week.
The main problem remains the super long time needed for Dual Identity.
Maybe a talent that allows you to use the ability of your vigilante identity without your disguise, but people get a huge bonus to find out about your secret identity. Lesse:
Eschew Secrecy: You can spend a full round action changing your mentality from your social identity to your vigilante identity. In this mindset you can use the abilities of your vigilante identity even without the disguise. Anyone that sees you, including any enemies you fight with, get a sense motive check as a free action every round they see you against a DC of 10+half your level+your charisma modifier to connect your social identity with your vigilante identity.
There we go. Take a moment to make sure you really want to do this, and if you're sure it's worth the risk you can kick ass even as Bruce Wayne. The mooks probably have really low Sense Motive, but you should be worried, what if one of them rolls a twenty. But try this in front of a cop or worse the Joker and you secret is busted. Using, stelth, invisibility or smoke bombs would keep your identity secret, and is what Batman or Daredevil would try if they had to fight in civilian disguise.
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Two alignments in one brain??!?!? I can't truly grasp the two alignment concept... really they should have a real alignment and perhaps their mundane/social alias should "pretend" to be a different alignment for the sake of blending into the society they live in, but to have two separate alignment in one brain just borders too much on multiple identity disorder to me... or maybe that's the point? I mean oracles have "curses" and this vigilante, well, he's just bat s@#% crazy and you have to accept it? if not, make it "Vigilante have one true alignment, but they can pretend to be any one other alignment within one step of their true alignment for the purpose of spell effects, alignment detection, and so on."
I like VM's idea of extra talents, and I like PDK's idea for the actual and pretend alignment.
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I'd actually be completely for the Social Persona being one of several different types themselves, just like the specializations
Basically, Social Personas would be based or actually COPY NPC classes entirely, and each one gives special abilities.
To wit, the current default Social Persona given for the Vigilante right now is affixed to an Aristocrat chassis. Obviously Bruce Wayne and Oliver Queen.
Another Social Persona would be an Expert, with appropriate abilities like focuses in Knowledge skills or Dexterity, etc. Think Barry Allen, Tony Stark, and Matt Murdock.
A Third would be a Commoner; to make up for the seeming lack of skills and bad Base Attack Bonuses, the Commoner would have the ability to completely blend in with society - Hide in Plain Sight by disappearing into crowds while in their Social Persona, have massive bonuses to avoid things like Scrying, etc. Think Peter Parker, Clark Kent, Rorschach, Wally West, Billy Batson, and tons of other heroes who are so low-key and nondescript that they're almost undetectable.
I don't know about Adept, but Warrior would make some sense.
Warriors may get minor Combat bonuses, like a very low-end Fighter.
Either way, it would actually make for a whole host of cool combos and customized "superhero" characters.
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I've also advocated justifying the Social/Super split by hard-coding something into Dual Identity that requires a physical thing to switch from Shlub to Super. There's tons of examples of this, as well:
Tony Stark IS a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, but he's next-to-useless for anything but support without the Iron Man suits. He needs to actually suit up to be Iron Man.
Jaime Reyes is a normal kid until he activates the Beetle and transforms into Blue Beetle III.
Billy Batson is pretty much a preteen wimp until he says SHAZAM! - after which, Captain Marvel is operating on New God levels of power, putting him on the same tier as Superman, Icon, Wonder Woman, Darkseid, and Martian Manhunter.
Usagi Tsukino is a less-than-useless 14-year-old, until she whips out her wand and transforms into Sailor Moon.
Even the Power Rangers may have martial-arts training outside of their Ranger armor, but they're not as strong and are much, much squishier until they don the Ranger suits.
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Either way, Dual Identity needs to allow for much-faster changes than a Full-Round Action at lv13.(!!!)
By lv11, you should be able to Transform as AT LEAST a Standard, if not a Move Action.
Either way, Dual Identity needs to allow for much-faster changes than a Full-Round Action at lv13.(!!!)
By lv11, you should be able to Transform as AT LEAST a Standard, if not a Move Action.
Avengers and stalkers, being mundane, should require a few rounds to change identities, but they should get to keep all of their talents when in their social identity (since a mundane disguise doesn't magically change who you are).
Warlocks and zealots, being magical, should lose most of their spells and talents when in their social identities (because you have to turn off your magic to hide it from other magic), but they should be able to magically assume their vigilante identities as a standard, move, or swift action.
But then you run into issues of things like Powered Armor characters - are they Avengers, or are they something else?
The Guyver, for instance, is just an absurdly powerful bio-powered-armor with a few tricks like the chest cannon, etc. Wouldn't that count as an Avenger?
The whole problem with the class is that Vigilante seems like much less a specific Class, and instead an entire GROUP of Classes.
In many ways, it seems like Vigilantes would have been better designed and instituted as something like Mythic Heroes - a wide-range classification of Classes or character options which all have the common thread of having a Mundane and a Super identity.
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Either way, Dual Identity needs to allow for much-faster changes than a Full-Round Action at lv13.(!!!)
By lv11, you should be able to Transform as AT LEAST a Standard, if not a Move Action.
Avengers and stalkers, being mundane, should require a few rounds to change identities, but they should get to keep all of their talents when in their social identity (since a mundane disguise doesn't magically change who you are).
Warlocks and zealots, being magical, should lose most of their spells and talents when in their social identities (because you have to turn off your magic to hide it from other magic), but they should be able to magically assume their vigilante identities as a standard, move, or swift action.
I like this solution there's a clear line between a Batgirl character and a Sailor Moon character.
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Two alignments in one brain??!?!? I can't truly grasp the two alignment concept... really they should have a real alignment and perhaps their mundane/social alias should "pretend" to be a different alignment for the sake of blending into the society they live in, but to have two separate alignment in one brain just borders too much on multiple identity disorder to me... or maybe that's the point? I mean oracles have "curses" and this vigilante, well, he's just bat s@#% crazy and you have to accept it? if not, make it "Vigilante have one true alignment, but they can pretend to be any one other alignment within one step of their true alignment for the purpose of spell effects, alignment detection, and so on."I definitely agree. Having two alignments is much too complicated. Your suggestion works much better.
I think the only "hero" I can think of with two distinctly separate alignments is Ghost Rider, but I don't think that's what the devs were going for... ;)
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Hulk's alignment is hard to pin down at times, but I think he'd qualify. He's more of a variant Master Chymist, though.
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My personal fix, since we've been told that social talents will be released, would simply be to re-write the change time. Start at a full round action, then @ 5 change to a standard (a vigilante sbould be at least as good as a bard) then a move action around 7-9ish, a swift at about level 13, and then in the endgame give it an option to make a stealth check (maybe w/out cover or concealment) to change unnoticed.
Also, I think it might be neat if they eventually could spend a free action once per round/minute to change the mindset of the social to the vigilante, getting the vigilante stuff instead of the social stuff,and then could make bluff/disguise checks to cover up the fact that clark kent just shot lasers (mystic bolt [fire] reskinned) out of his eyes. Not nessecarily the most powerful option, but I think its thematically appropriate.
Powered armor characters aren't supported by any of the current vigilante specialties; none of them has artifice- or mutagen-related talents.
Eh. Warlock actually kind of does support it.
Mystic bolt - lasers
Elemental battle armor - battle armor
Bombs - Bombs
Educated Defense - Deflecting attacks
Tattoo Chamber - Hammerspace for whatever things your suit also has
Fixing Dual Identity:
The vigilante has a vigilante identity and a social identity. At first level he chooses which one is the real one, that identity has his real alignment. He can pick any aligment for his other identity. Effects that detect or work based on aligment use the aligment of the identity he is using. If he is subjected to an effect that would alter his alignment it affects the aligment of his real identity. The vigilante only fulfills the alignment prerequisites for feats, classes, or worshipping a god if both identities fulfill that prerequisite. For example a vigilante can only multiclass with paladin if both his idetitie are LG, but he can multiclass as cleric of Iomedae if his vigilante identity is LN and is social persona is NG.
When the vigilante is in his vigilante identity, it does not count as a disguise, and any attempts to see trough it with Perception or Sense Motive automatically fail. The vigilante and social identities are treated as two separate creatures for the purposes of knowledge checks, diplomacy checks to gather information, and all divination spells, such as Legend Lore and Commune. Attempts to scry or otherwise locate one identity only work when the vigilante is in that identity, if he is in a different idenitty they fail as if he had succeed on his save roll.
The vigilante loses all bonuses from this ability against anyone that knows the connection of his two identities, such as if they see him change, are told by the vigilante or by someone with concrete proof and evidences, or see the vigilante use any vigilante identity talents while in his social identity.
There we go. Closes all the loopholes, is powerfull enough to be better than a normal disguise focused class, and allows you to decide if it's Bruce Wayne or Batman that is the mask.