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Let's start with a staple of low level play, spiders, they run out of their holes, throw some entangling webs and then charge and fight till 0 HP, story is old story is boring.
That's not how a spider usually hunts, they don't charge like a zombie, they wait for prey and the ambush.
Here's and idea on how to change the playing field and keep players nervous.
They're going into the spiders home, their nest, the spiders have spun webs everywhere, and I do mean everywhere, not just in the big drapes across hallways, have them lay some across the floor and on the walls. Second, remember that spiders can sense vibrations through their webs and can find prey through that vibration. The spiders follow, stalking, then dart in, bite one of the PCs and then run away and let the poison work. Often times, players aren't used to that, and while poison saves are often low, if the spiders keep doing this someone's inevitably going to fail, and then stat loss happens and the players get scared.
If the fighter fails a few saves and loses say, 3 Strength, he's going to be scared, he won't hit as often, he hits less hard, and if his strength drops too much, he could start getting encumbered by his gear.
Anyone starts losing Dex and their AC starts dropping fast.
This has a startling effect on a players confidence, and can be a major inconvenience even at higher levels. Stat damage from Poison or Disease takes time to heal, sometimes several days of straight bed rest, or a valuable Restoration spell, which they might want to save in case of bigger problems.
You can even throw this at them without a Giant Spider dungeon.
You're in an abandoned tower rummaging through a bookshelf, a tiny spider bites your hand cause you nearly squished it.
If you're DM is mean (diabolical genius) he could put on the door right before a fight.
While they're tromping through the woods have them step on a normal hornet nest. I guarantee it'll be entertaining.
Include Disease.
If they're walking around all kinds of dead rotting corpses make them make that saving throw to get all kinds of nasty crap.
If they're wading in swamps make them roll against things like Dysentery or "Trench Foot" or Malaria cause they're getting eaten alive by Mosquitoes.
If you've got other ideas please, share them.
Poison and disease isn't interesting (to me, obviously), it's just a debuff.
Debuffs mean my character fails more often, which sucks and is boring.
Interesting is an environment that matters for more than just cover. Stuff like:
A battlefield with spots of wild magic, that teleport you from one spot to another.
A dwarven tunnel in which a lever can be pulled to activate traps, or release the magma river.
A maguffin guarded by a mighty glacier (but not on their person). The party could potentially distract the guardian, snatch the object they came for, and get out of dodge.
Basically, I think a battle is interesting if I can contribute meaningfully to it without the sword (unless it's to cut the counterweight to something).
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Achieving your goal(s) without resorting to "I kill it" or "blow it up with a spell."
Atypical creatures, or creatures that are similar to ones the players (think they) know. EX: yellow musk zombies. Players go "Oh, a zombie! I splash holy water on it!" or "I channel positive energy!" Except they're not undead zombies, they're plants!
It's tweaking the known so that it needs to be explored, figured out, not another "Oh, that...!" and they do the same old same old.
Multiple opponents! Seriously, it gives a lot of options and a lot more durability to the foes.
Tactically interesting situations. Terrain, conditions, changes, surprises.
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Sort of a false dichotomy don't you think? Encounters can be deadly and interesting.
Anyway, my answer is know the rules and use them. You can utilize more of the rules than just the monster or NPC stat block. Throw some terrain features into the mix. Make sure you know the cover and concealment rules. Use those. Visibility, weather, slopes, flanking, high ground, difficult terrain, etc. You need to make sure that your players have interesting choices to make. The rules have plenty of ways to do that. There are plenty of other things that factor into making a memorable encounter but I think this is the most fundamental step. You need to know what your building blocks are. Unfortunatly, there seem to be far too few DMs who do.
Personally I like implementing scenerios where your mission is to take a person down without killing them and without deadly force.
Its funny what happens when suddenly everyone in the party has to figure out non-lethal ways to take down a person.
In fact, one of my games has a Cavalier of the Blue Rose, A Monk, a Life Oracle, and Clubber Rogue :P. It was actually kinda cool RP wise as they mostly refused to kill unless there was no choice and created some interesting combats.
Sorry about not responding, had some things to take care of.
Certainly to most people responses, terrain and interesting type encounters do make huge difference.
I didn't properly explain what I meant by "Deadly". I was referring to that strange occurrence when players get more health as they level and suddenly every dungeon and palace is stocked with traps and guardians powerful enough to give an adult dragon second thoughts.
Where it just turns into monsters with bigger health bars that do more damage.
It's mostly personal that I love the more normal creatures and finding ways to keep them around/ harass the party with them.
"Tucker's Kobolds" are the perfect example of this, taking something an using it in a new and creative way that makes them more dangerous without having to make them more powerful.
As to the terrain comments, all of my yes.
My favorite is bandits or hobgoblins or such with a proper ambush, party's on an open road when the arrows start flying. The bandits are off nearly a 100 feet away, and to get into melee with them the party has to go down into the ditch, up the other side, over a fence, up a hill, and over another fence before the sword fight starts.
The PCs are drunk/stoned something fierce, and you're clear up front that everything they're fighting is all in their heads. No dramatic reveal afterwards that they were actually fighting X or Y, just let them enjoy fighting the psychedelic dream-weasels with all sorts of weird stuff going on.
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Certainly to most people responses, terrain and interesting type encounters do make huge difference.
I didn't properly explain what I meant by "Deadly". I was referring to that strange occurrence when players get more health as they level and suddenly every dungeon and palace is stocked with traps and guardians powerful enough to give an adult dragon second thoughts.
Where it just turns into monsters with bigger health bars that do more damage.It's mostly personal that I love the more normal creatures and finding ways to keep them around/ harass the party with them.
Class levels, then, would be my suggestion. Particularly classes that don't necessarily match the theme of the monster --- an ogre barbarian is basically just an ogre that hits harder and has a bigger health bar, but an ogre bard can ensorcel you and then come over and hit you really hard. A satyr bolt ace that can clip the buttons of your shirt while you're wearing it when he's not playing his pipes. Heck, a gelatinous cube with class levels in swashbucker.
The best fight I DM'ed in the past several sessions was one where an enemy had too high of a DR, had blur, and had a decent escape artist check. The only option ended up being a wrestling match between the monk and baddie with the other players assisting in magical or non magical ways. Eventually they tied it up and CDG the bastard. That was alot more fun to me and the players compared to hitting it over and over. This was a lower level fight btw.'
Usually not having a flat piece of land makes the fight more fun.
I'll second class levels now that I understand your meaning. I'll also add tactics. Lower CR creatures can gain a lot of longevity if you really understand the options they have available to them. Of course, this all comes back to what I said earlier about understanding the rules available to you. If you understand how to capitalize on your advantages while mitigating your disadvantages caused by things like weather effects and poor lighting or slippery surfaces, etc. then you can be better equipped to have your NPC's/monsters make more interesting choices.
For example, if the PC's attack a group of bandits and the bandits get their asses handed to them. Those same bandits might come back and ambush the party. They could use ranged attacks from behind cover on high ground. Maybe they buff their attacks with something like Flaming Arrows (an underused spell considering it's duration). Maybe they laid a pit trap or two to slow down the PC's advance. Those conditions alone could be more than enough to get the PC's interested in the fight because it gives them the feeling that the stakes have been raised. They aren't fighting programed monsters with attack routines anymore. Now they're fighting bandits that actually care about their success and their survival. It adds a level of verisimilitude that let's the players know you're invested in the game and willing to try to make things interesting and exciting. As long as you pay attention to the party and make sure not to make the situation unwinnable or unfair the PC's will (generally) respect you for it. It seems simple, but few DM's really use the tactics available to them. Which is odd to me because the returns you get from your players is so worth it.
I'll second class levels now that I understand your meaning. I'll also add tactics. Lower CR creatures can gain a lot of longevity if you really understand the options they have available to them. Of course, this all comes back to what I said earlier about understanding the rules available to you. If you understand how to capitalize on your advantages while mitigating your disadvantages caused by things like weather effects and poor lighting or slippery surfaces, etc. then you can be better equipped to have your NPC's/monsters make more interesting choices.
For example, if the PC's attack a group of bandits and the bandits get their asses handed to them. Those same bandits might come back and ambush the party. They could use ranged attacks from behind cover on high ground. Maybe they buff their attacks with something like Flaming Arrows (an underused spell considering it's duration). Maybe they laid a pit trap or two to slow down the PC's advance. Those conditions alone could be more than enough to get the PC's interested in the fight because it gives them the feeling that the stakes have been raised. They aren't fighting programed monsters with attack routines anymore. Now they're fighting bandits that actually care about their success and their survival. It adds a level of verisimilitude that let's the players know you're invested in the game and willing to try to make things interesting and exciting. As long as you pay attention to the party and make sure not to make the situation unwinnable or unfair the PC's will (generally) respect you for it. It seems simple, but few DM's really use the tactics available to them. Which is odd to me because the returns you get from your players is so worth it.
Yes, tactics are my biggest point here, I personally don't like adding Class levels to certain things (like oozes) ogres I heartily agree, Skald and Bloodrager being my favorites.
Tactics, I've screwed players over with goblins that hide in little holes and use hooked poles to snag pull you leg into the hole whereupon they basically clamp a bear trap on it. Or use slings to fling alchemist's fire's, acid, thunderstones and all manner of nasty crap from afar| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of the favourites I ran was the party was investigating several meteorites that fell to the surface. It turned out these were hunks of skymetal (of great interest to the one smith amongst the group).
One skymetal mentions having time based properties (Incubrex maybe? It's been awhile). For that encounter they came across a crater in a forest where it hit. It fell hard enough it actually damaged the time stream in that area as well and had created a few time elementals to battle.
The more interesting part of the battle was that there were pockets/areas amongst the battlefield that changed time. The simple ones were simply haste or slow when you moved through or stood in them. The others aged you forward or backwards on a exponential rate. Meaning, standing in that area for one round (depending on the area) aged you a single year or backwards a single year. Next round was two, then four, then eight...and so on.
There were hints spread out if they were watching and perception checks to notice the flickering in the air as well. The first one they found had a pile of dust where someone had been aged so rapidly that there was nothing left.
Suffice to say they had a blast with it and played around a little changing their ages some. A few returned to town younger and more vibrant...
Achieving your goal(s) without resorting to "I kill it" or "blow it up with a spell."
Atypical creatures, or creatures that are similar to ones the players (think they) know. EX: yellow musk zombies. Players go "Oh, a zombie! I splash holy water on it!" or "I channel positive energy!" Except they're not undead zombies, they're plants!
It's tweaking the known so that it needs to be explored, figured out, not another "Oh, that...!" and they do the same old same old.
I love the Yellow Musk Zombie, it got me thinking and I started designing a haunted house, the thing is, all the weird is the result of an awakened plant monster created by a mad druid. Throw in a few animated objects made by captured mages over the years and so for and so such and you have a "haunted" house that f+$#s with player preconceptions and leaves them incorrectly prepared.
Mimics...
Those things...
When your GM drops mimics, you know he means business...
And honestly, it is priceless when you drop 1 mimic in the a dungeon because from then on out the party is utterly paranoid around ANY chest :P
And honestly, it is priceless when you drop 1 mimic in the a dungeon because from then on out the party is utterly paranoid around ANY chest :P
Mimics are old hat. Start engraving the real chests with explosive runes, trapping them with poisoned blade, have them release toxic mists or yellow musk spores, by the end of it, they'll be HAPPY to see that mimic. At least until a will save reveals it as an illusion and they find out some psychopath made a golem out of chests.
So... a chest golem? xD
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So here's the thing: fights are only as interesting as the PLAYERS make them, not the GM. I have 2 lots of players across 2 groups currently and they all have different styles. A couple are optimizers for their own stats but then once battles hit they are ALL about the numbers; their "fun" comes from being mathematically superior no mater how much/little strategy they use. For these folks it doesn't matter that I've got a dozen kobolds, scattered around 3 "kill zones" both outdoors and in a tight cavern hall, with rocks and crags providing cover AND I've given the party a scroll of Obscuring Mist.
Then there are other players who approach each fight cinematically. They make some ridiculously bad strategic decisions, like hanging back at range against said kobolds, attacking with a weak-to-hit-bonus bow while they AND the kobolds are all in cover, and realizing only after several rounds that they're not hitting the kobolds except on a 20. But that doesn't matter to these folks because for them there's the "cool" factor of, one scene later, using a bunch of cantrips and the aforementioned Obscuring Mist to unnerve 8 out of 12 kobolds into retreat with a creepy sheet ghost - a shirt with a horrifying face painted on it in glow-in-the-dark inks, set to a faint glow with Prestidigitation, made to float with Mage Hand and backed with eerie sounds a la Ghost Sound, all while being surrounded in a sudden pea-soup fog while the PCs sneak through the area undetected.
TL/DR: bottom line sometimes it doesn't matter WHAT you put in front of your players in terms of environment. You put rocks and trees in the battle map, they figure out how to still maximize the one charging lane; the caves are fed with smoke and heat by underground vents, the players just use cantrips and Endure Elements along with a Survival check and then ignore the potential hazards; the rats infect the PCs with a disease, they ignore it and move on knowing there will be whole days until onset and they start suffering.
Some players have fun from combat in different ways.
For other players, even a completely empty room can still be interesting. They climb walls, use doorways, or even bring their own cover with them using magic. I had one 2nd level wizard cast Floating Disk, transfer it to his rat familiar, and then had the rat walking around trailing a 200-lb table wood table with it. In some fights the barbarian and cleric would grab said table and either Bull Rush with it, lay it out for Cover or use it to get Higher Ground. After the fights if they had time the wizard would read off a scroll of Make Whole and repair the thing.
If your the GM and want to make things interesting simply set scenes, locate the players who WANT to make the fights about more than numbers, and then get out of their way. Incentivize them by reminding them of strategic environmental bonuses until they have a good handle on them and even toss them some Circumstance bonuses once in a while. Before you know it those players are using every inch of every scene.
Finally let me also say... roleplaying.
If you want a fight to be more interesting without being deadly, try using some narrative or acting skills when running it. Who says spiders can't talk? Sure the rules suggest they can't, but who cares? The spiders all talked in the Lord of the Rings books, why not in your games? If the spiders were suddenly whispering from Stealth, things like "Welcome to my den little flies... your blood will feed my bones for DAYSSSSS..." or whatever there are some players who will suddenly perk up and get engaged.
A fight with four kobolds hiding in a dungeon room is boring. A fight with 4 kobolds, hiding in a ruined chapel with overturned pews, an altar and niches in the walls is better, but still only a little for some players.
Add one more dimension of interest by making it 4 kobolds named Bylx, Nuglyk, Alkyvex and Thryggh - one is a Warrior with Weapon Finesse, another is an Adept but with modified spells cast as Arcane instead of Divine and he's got Scribe Scroll so the kobolds have a bunch of those, the third is a classic Divine adept with Combat Reflexes and decent armor that acts like a tank and the fourth has the Kobold Sniper feat and darts through the cover every round making ranged attacks against foes denied their Dex bonus. Now along with all of this, reward the arcane spellcaster for taking the Draconic language by having them understand the kobolds as they talk to one another in combat:
Bylx: Mordalith's Balls Alkyvex, I thought you said that pit trap filled with rats was "infallible!"
Alkyvex: (in a lisp) Sorry Bylx, they must be stronger than they look
Nuglyk: (in a high, squeaky voice) well they're no match for the draconic power of the arts arcane! We shall weaken them further then lead them astray; these fools will never find the treasure beneath the altar! (a misdirect; the kobolds have an exploding Alchemist's Fire trap hidden there)
Thryggh: (in a deep voice; he has the trait that makes him more intimidating) No doubt Nug! They won't get past ME (positions himself in the open, in front of the altar) and they'll regret trying! (to the players, in Common) Come fools; try to take our treasure and pay for it with your LIVES (Intimidation check)
Now as the fight goes on, if the kobolds live for more than a round they can quip about good hits they've made or bad misses by the PCs; they might call out expletives invoking the dragon Mordalith who they worship; you might even give them some dramatic death speech as they are defeated. With a little roleplaying these four kobolds may just occupy a niche of imagination that otherwise would have been left untouched by this fight scene in your players' minds.
I ran a surprisingly fun encounter for a bunch of 3rd or 4th level PCs. It was three 15 by 15 foot rooms connected by doors in the middle of each wall, surrounded by a 5 foot wide corridor all the way around. The 3 rooms were filled with goblins and a few bugbears, and they used Stealth to sneak around. A lot of the complexity dealt with the action economy of opening and closing doors. There were maybe twice as many goblins as there were PCs, and maybe an equal number of bugbears.
I think the party make up was an alchemist, a gunslinger, an inquisitor, a rogue archer, and maybe a monk.
I'm also a fan of having encounters in alchemist labs. Lots of tables to use for cover, difficult terrain, higher ground, etc., and lots of interesting things to use, like beakers of acid, half-made potions (heal 1d4 or 1d6 damage instead of 1d8+1), boiling cauldrons (that can be spilled for grease effects, difficult terrain, hot hazards, etc.), to say nothing of hazards of the fires under the cauldrons (monsters bull rush PCs into fire), bottled oozes, experimental undead (maybe some of those half-made potions are inflict spells?), experimental constructs, secret passages behind the book shelves, book shelves transformed into walls of fire by particularly reckless pyromaniac alchemists, some alchemists using bombs, some tanking, some using poisoned crossbow bolts, some handing out potions of healing to their allies, etc. etc.
I also like to give mobs of minions teamwork feats. I ran one with a bunch of ratfolk warriors with the Swap Places feat and working for an alchemist boss, so they had lots of potions of cure light wounds. They would get hit, Swap Places, then drink a potion, then Swap Places again. PCs HATE it when the monsters eat the treasure!!!
Also, NPCs using non-lethal damage can really unnerve paranoid PCs.
:-)
Personally I like implementing scenerios where your mission is to take a person down without killing them and without deadly force.
Its funny what happens when suddenly everyone in the party has to figure out non-lethal ways to take down a person.
In fact, one of my games has a Cavalier of the Blue Rose, A Monk, a Life Oracle, and Clubber Rogue :P. It was actually kinda cool RP wise as they mostly refused to kill unless there was no choice and created some interesting combats.
It's funny that you mention this because I have been playing witch for Rise of the Runelords. We are level 4, and I have already subdued multiple bosses and mini-bosses using Slumber. There was one in particular that shouted "You'll never take me alive!" which I took as a challenge. Three rounds later she was tied to our pack horse like a sack of potatoes.
We now can throw them in prison, make them answer for their crimes instead of having death as an easy-out, and get useful information from them! I don't think the GM likes it very much, though...
I've noticed not many GMs are fond of Sleep Witched. Not sure why. Just answer them by using more elves...
I've noticed not many GMs are fond of Sleep Witched. Not sure why. Just answer them by using more elves...
Got a low-level witch/wizard/arcane caster tossing Sleep or Sleep Hex all over? Drop a tatzlwyrm. It is CR 2 with 22 HP, immune to sleep (as dragons tend to be) and intelligent. It's capable of making/using simple traps, has decent saves and a fast Climb speed (30') with powerful Stealth skills in the right environment. Best of all, Pounce and Rake with 2 claws.
Old Tatz-manian devil here could be in a tree hidden (DC 26 to spot it), wait for one of the PCs to get caught in a tree snare that entangles them, and then suddenly it's: Surprise round/Bite/Grapple/Rake... for 16 damage. The witch yells "Sleep Hex" and dragon just grins, picking out its next target...
I've noticed not many GMs are fond of Sleep Witched. Not sure why. Just answer them by using more elves...
If the solution to a problem is to carefully choose the race of the PC's opposition in order to shut down a specific player then this is a little bit of a concern and the GM might be just a tad justified in disliking Slumber Witches.
That said, throwing larger numbers of enemies makes a Slumber Witch less horrifically overpowered. Removing an enemy from combat isn't as attractive when there are 7 others, coup de graces are harder to get without AoOs when there are more bodies on the field, and the opposing side can afford the action economy to wake victims up, so the Witch will often just be removing 2/8 enemies from a single round of combat each time it lands, which means that the witch is locking down 1/4 of the encounter, which sounds spot on for how much a PC should be doing in a party of 4.
Environment
Intelligent foes that use tactics and may retreat
Other PC objectives than kill & loot.
About environment: One memorable fight in 'The Four Musketeers' (1974?) was between the musketeers and some weak bandits, but on a thinly iced lake. Everybody kept slipping, providing openings, and being worry about breaking through the ice. Fun fight!
About outcomes: It's been mentioned, but one way to move away from 'kill them and take their stuff' is to make some other outcomes important. Is the target the only one whose seen the face of the villain? Is he carrying an important, but fragile item on his person? Is there an important bystander, whose opinion matters, and who shuns unnecessary murder?
I like also when the good guys learn they can't just kill the bad guy, as the fight starts: "I see you're out to get me, but I'll have you know that my minions have done something terrible, which will unfold in the next 24 hours, unless you do the following..." or something.
One of my favourite is making a fight unfold in phases. Opponents and goals can change during the course of the encounter, as information is gained or revealed, and new parties get involved.
I can't but echo the comment about the players being on board. That's the real challenge. Different players thrive on different things. The good news is most groups have a mix of these needs.
I have also found that teamwork feats on mooks can bring them a lot more flavour and meanness than say power attack.
dot for interest
This is getting some really good ideas *scribbles notes furiously*
I always think it's funny when folks say "environment." That's easy to say as a GM but think in terms of a player. A player is going to listen to key elements of the environment and ignore everything else. You tell a player "you're entering a swampy area" and they immediately start looking for ways to mitigate all of the hazards of the area. Doing so generally removes the "interest" of said environment.
If you're going to say "environment" you have to either surprise the PCs (you come around the corner in the dungeon and there's... a MANGROVE room!) or you have to create settings that the PCs can't simply magic their way out of.
For a GM we're all about making things fun and interesting. For a player its about efficient conflict resolution, resource management, and ALSO some fun. Remember you can lead a PC to water; you can't make them jump in it to fight a bunch of Reefclaws.
I think another thing to do is set a tone in the game where mindlessly murdering everything isn't ok. Now this too won't work with EVERY group of players. What I'm talking about is that kobolds, goblins, necromancers and liches are people too (sort of), in spite of all their evil.
In RL you can't just walk up on someone's property, kick open the door and begin murdering them just because they broke a local law. In Pathfinder that's EXACTLY what happens. Change the dynamic; have the NPC hire the PCs not to go MURDER the monsters but capture them and bring them to justice or just drive them away or make a deal with them to be nicer.
One thing that I think really helps is interesting terrain that can help or hinder one side or the other.
I like having multi-tiered battlegrounds with choke points for PCs that don't yet have extensive access to flight. Whoever has the high ground has a real advantage. Add some interesting dynamic traps, and you have a very memorable encounter.
Of course, I usually save such a complex battlefield for the boss fight...
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There's a lot to learn from the most memorable scenes of movies and series we enjoy. Classic scenes for me are chases, or fights where one group wants to kill someone, while the heroes try to get that person to safety, or a scene where two groups try to get to a place first, etc. Another of my favourites is in Yojimbo, where the character's goal is to have the two groups fight each other, instead of him fighting both. There are some nice gems in the modules and APs, like the rooftop chase in CotCT or some of the cave encounters in Age of Worms (Age of Worms has a lot of good stuff!). Another favourite is where the main characters are trying to influence the high power towards a course of action, while the another group try to do the opposite. For example, the king seeks counsel: should we go to war or settle peacefully? These can be deadly situations in their own right!
That being said, the rules, by their structure, but also through their historical uses, have set expectations. As Mark mentioned, looting is part of the game since D&D. There are equivalents IRL, but they are perhaps more rare. Another expectation is that you don't use harsh language to defeat most encounters. Monsters and black and white plots make it simpler to slaughter and loot. It's for a good cause. Moving things among human societies or, as Eberron had done or lately the Unchained rules propose, removing alignment expectations can mix things up a bit, bringing back morality issues in a grey world, instead of a black and white one.
Another area that can prove challenging is social encounters. The rules do not support it very well, and some classes have no chance at it. There's a real disconnect here, as someone can easily get very high diplomacy numbers, while another will get a negative. There is agreement that every class should be able to contribute to a fight, but when it comes to social encounters, there is such a divide among classes as designed, generally made worse by optimization. My solution so far for this is to let your players know they'll need those skills to an extent. The announced social rules by Pathfinder might solve some of those issues.
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I've noticed not many GMs are fond of Sleep Witched. Not sure why. Just answer them by using more elves...Got a low-level witch/wizard/arcane caster tossing Sleep or Sleep Hex all over? Drop a tatzlwyrm. It is CR 2 with 22 HP, immune to sleep (as dragons tend to be) and intelligent. It's capable of making/using simple traps, has decent saves and a fast Climb speed (30') with powerful Stealth skills in the right environment. Best of all, Pounce and Rake with 2 claws.
Old Tatz-manian devil here could be in a tree hidden (DC 26 to spot it), wait for one of the PCs to get caught in a tree snare that entangles them, and then suddenly it's: Surprise round/Bite/Grapple/Rake... for 16 damage. The witch yells "Sleep Hex" and dragon just grins, picking out its next target...
My Ulfen witch had to take on a tatzylwurm in Reign of Winter. Slumber hex was out of the question, and the viking was already down. So... I slew it with my longsword.
Which - I assume - qualifies me for Linnorm King status. ^_^
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Which - I assume - qualifies me for Linnorm King status. ^_^
Linnorm King of a very small kingdom. Like Monaco. Or maybe Sealand.
Congratulations!
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I tried this last week, the players got so scared they turned and left and went around the area. All it was was a yellow musk plant in an area of similar looking plants, so they had to roll perception to find a plant that had not given away it's position by spraying pollen (and the plants had readied actions to spray immediately so I was playing the plants as dumb as possible). The PCs even had a summoned eagle that was able to trigger the plants and make the saves, and with 30' range PC perception would spot plants first, but they still freaked out and ran. (well, walked).
In my mind, the barbarian would lose the will save, and 2 others would hilariously try tackling him or pinning him with his monster CMD, while the last 2 would fight the zombies and burn the plant. But none of that happened.
I am gonna have to take them in baby steps, after decades of hack and slash they are not used to fighting anything not right in front of them. And I'm probably the easiest of us on DMing, I'm never trying to kill and even will just outright tell them if they are not getting the hints.
I think this is probably the problem I had
For a GM we're all about making things fun and interesting. For a player its about efficient conflict resolution, resource management, and ALSO some fun
The environment has to complement the creature's strengths and weaknesses. One of the most difficult encounters I've played recently involved the party trying to cross a simple 15' gap in the sewer when they were ambushed by chokers from below. The chokers could climb along the wall and managed to keep pulling or dropping everyone into the water. It was quite frustrating because the chokers were so well suited for that environment while the PCs were not.
I've found that including water in encounters can add places for monsters to hide as well as creating a hazard for PCs. Keeping track of any light sources the party is using can be helpful too. Monsters can spot PCs carrying a light from a long way off in darkness. They can also steal, sunder, swallow, or otherwise disable a light source.
Ability damage can be debilitating indeed though at higher levels it tends to get healed pretty quickly. Negative levels can have even more impact though the DM should be careful not to set loose too many sources of negative levels at once. When using spectres, for instance, it might be better to mix one or two in with lesser monsters than to use a large group which can easily drain a PC to death. Hit and run tactics can be effective here but run the risk of demoralizing the players if taken too far.
I'm glad to see that folks like Yellow Musk Creepers. I'm also a big fan of an old Japanese movie called "Matango", and every year when the local Mushroom Festival rolls around I get the urge to run a fungal themed adventure. The idea of a fungal infection which rots or warps flesh and slowly turns you into a monster can be a lot of fun, as can stuff like insects controlled by parasitic fungus.
Another thing which I think can be fun in limited doses is making it so that attacking the monsters hurts the PCs. An example is the Cloaker's Engulf ability, which causes the PC being grappled to take half the damage that is inflicted upon the Cloaker. I give a similar ability to undead "skin" monsters based on the Skin Kite and Forsaken Husk from 3.5. If something like this goes for a Pin the party could be hard pressed to save their friend except by using positive energy.
I added a dungeon for zest in the Kingmaker campaign I was running.
The PCs had crossed a series of 10 foot wide trap doors while being sniped at by evil fey. This was in an abandoned temple of some deity, and when the PCs captured one of the fey, the Rogue/Witch swore by the deity he would let the fey go if the fey gave them some info. The fey gave them some info, and the Rogue/Witch "freed" the fey with a rapier to the heart. So the temple collapsed and separated the party into 3 groups. And I HATE separating the party.
The poor cavalier was all by himself in a section with no monsters and lots of locked doors to sunder. At least he got to practice making Perception checks....
The alchemist and wizard had to deal with some kind of quick ooze or vermin or something gross. A few admixture bombs took care of the threat pretty quickly.
The rogue/witch and archer ranger were trapped at the bottom of some stairs before a chamber filled with undead stags. The stags were just skeletons, but could also disarm, trip, and bull-rush as a free action if they hit. But since they were only 1 or 2 HD, the rogue/witch was able to use his Healing Hex to one-shot them for the most part. Which was good, since the archer only had pointy weapons, and skeletons have DR 5/bludgeoning. And it only took the rogue/witch 3 or 4 rounds to realize that was a valid tactic. :-)
At least the dungeon was designed to have lots of secret passages, so they were able to escape and meet up.
And I ran it all pretty much simultaneously, so everyone got a turn, as opposed to running the vermin fight first, then the skeletal stag fight next, and then make everyone watch the cavalier roll dice against doors.
Here are a couple more tips:
Do not name the creature in an encounter unless the party have the knowledge to identify it.
I have found parties respond to threats with more seriousness when you describe the creature, but don't name it.
There are so many monsters that they are not always going to know about, and makes a party try different things or really invest in utilizing their knowledge to get tactical information
Second, if creatures have a tendency to use weapons, have some wield weapons that are different then their standard set-up. Have a couple of Hobgoblins using spears or greataxes instead of longswords. Just little things can also shift party focus on those enemies, rather then another factor entirely.
I'm also a big fan of hazards and terrain complications.
In PF, even opening doors can make things complicated, since it requires a move action. Forcing PCs to use up their move actions can be stressful, and might force them to prioritize who does what. For example, those with multiple attacks might encourage those who don't need full round actions to be effective in combat to handle the move action bits.
The first post in this thread is about how to make an encounter more than just attack, damage, repeat. Recently I've been making a lot of use of things like the Withdraw action, Aid Another and Obstacles. Of course, those are just numbers to a lot of players.
IMO if you want to make an impression with an encounter you do that by engaging the players. Find out what they like and play to that; sparingly play to their opposites.
The first post also references spiders. Imagine the following scene:
PCs come to an area of heavy forest at dusk searching for a missing lumberjack. They full on know there are spiders involved from an eyewitness. The party is APL 1.
The opening scene has the PCs arriving at the ambush site. There are a couple fallen trees, some large stumps and a small clearing surrounded by a thicker stand of trees and wild growth. Dried blood is spattered around and there is no sound except the wind in the boughs.
Now I ran this scene for 2 different games; one was a solo run with my 13 year old daughter and the other involved 3 experienced and tactically-minded adult players. Both began roughly the same; they searched for clues in the area and triggered an ambush. In the case of the solo adventure there was 1 spider; with the 3 guys there were 2.
After some hit-and-run by the spiders both encounters ended the way you'd expect: a tiny amount of damage to the heroes and the spiders destroyed. This also made the trail of the spiders obvious in both cases: the spiders don't move along the ground but rather have created web bridges and tunnels in the canopy. These pathways are so thick and reinforced by the dense tree cover that the PCs can walk there, carefully.
This is where the groups diverged.
My daughter is playing a fighter with a loyal horse mount. She leaves the horse to follow on the ground the best it can while she climbed into the canopy. From there we had lots of RP and a very cinematic experience. She liked imagining the swaying bridges, barely making Climb and Acrobatics checks as she stalked along and then suddenly there was an area with even heavier webs on the walls. Beneath the layers of webbing in the fading light it almost seemed as if the walls were moving. All at once as my daughter prodded the webs they burst open and a swarm began to form! Thinking quick she drew her sword and cut away the floor of the webbing; as she fell through the floor towards the forest below she called her mount. Grabbing (and succeeding on a tough Acrobatics roll) a thick strand of webbing she swung out even as her mount came thundering up the path. With a swoop she was in the saddle and racing away from the gathering swarm!
The experienced vets handled it like a military exercise.
They called out the numbers diligently as they pulled knotted rope out, climbed up, then used said rope to keep themselves anchored to the trees as they went - no acrobatics checks or swaying. When they got to the area of the swarm the half-elf wizard had her Perception cranked so high that she easily detected the swarm - no surprise round. Before even a few spiders had even begun to emerge from their egg sacs the same wizard let fly with a Burning Hands from a scroll under the benefit of several CL boosts. Multiple D4s of damage later the place was smoldering and burning around them. The cleric and wizard both opened up with Create Water while the barbarian used Power Attack/Cleave to carve away the smoldering limbs and drop them into the area below which I'd already described as damp and misty.
In the end they faced nearly the same encounters. Encounter 1 was either a CR 1 or CR 3 depending on the group, consisting of Light Forest terrain, spiders, and the PCs. Encounter 2 was a CR 1 skill challenge to find the trail through the canopy and then follow it. Encounter 3 was a CR 2 swarm with a Surprise round wherein the swarm forms up around the intruders.
For my daughter who really engaged with me and was into the cinema of the scenes they were fun encounters. For my buddies in our regular game though it was just 2 fight scenes to be resolved using standard tactics.
Ironically my buddies these days are getting more into non-combat scenes. If combat does break out they like it when the monsters talk to them. I have the feeling that our game nights have become their social outlet so talking is the highlight for them!