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Again, if we're talking about being on a grid, you are in a square and jumping less than 5 feet leaves you in your own square. But if we talk 1-ft increments, then yes, you only need a 1 to move into a pit that you're on the edge of.
And even if you start at the edge and the pit is 10 feet across, the area you want to land in (on the other side of the pit) is 11 feet away from your current location. So you need to jump from 0 to 11. Jumping from 0 to 10 lands you IN the pit. If the goal is to jump INTO the pit, then a 10 is just fine. But if you are trying to jump OVER the pit, then a 10 is only good if the pit is less than 10 feet across as per what SKR says.
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That would be true if you're counting in 5-foot increments. If you roll so bad as to get under a 5, then you're not really jumping at all as opposed to stumbling around in your square...which is entirely possible with such a low roll.
Now if you break things down into more 1-foot increments, then you can see some actual movement.
Again, even as SKR pointed out in those links, a result of 10 is good for 5-9 feet, but you'd need a result of 11 to manage an "about 10" foot jump. No where in those discussions does he say DC 10 for a 10ft pit. He recognizes that in order to get over the pit, you have to travel more than 10 feet and therefore need more than a result of 10.
Maybe he's said otherwise elsewhere, I don't know. I've only looked at what Cheapy linked on the first page. From those posts SKR seems to be emphasizing the part of the CRB that mentions "...the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump)..."
Right.And if I jump 4' into a 5' pit?
I'm just picturing a knight in plate standing on the edge of pit and trying again and again to jump into it. Failing every time.
Seriously, anyone trying to jump over a pit is going to be jumping from the edge of the pit, not starting a few feet away.
Anyone running as fast as they can so they can clear the pit is going to jump as close to the line as they can without going over. This is may be more difficult than you imagine. NFL kickers have to practice to get their strides perfectly lined up with the ball. It isn't all that simple to plant your foot at the exact spot when moving at full speed.
...
Give Nefreet some space as there is support for his claim. He is not making this stuff up.
Nefreet can take his own space. As 750 posts in 2 1/2 days show. But he is still playing in minecraft world. Edit: just adding a :) to show that i am not angry, bitter, mad or somthing else along that Line.
So are we debating what seems rational? Or are we debating what the rules (and they're designers) actually say? Because there are many instances the two are not the same at all.
Again, if we're talking about being on a grid, you are in a square and jumping less than 5 feet leaves you in your own square. But if we talk 1-ft increments, then yes, you only need a 1 to move into a pit that you're on the edge of.
And even if you start at the edge and the pit is 10 feet across, the area you want to land in (on the other side of the pit) is 11 feet away from your current location. So you need to jump from 0 to 11. Jumping from 0 to 10 lands you IN the pit. If the goal is to jump INTO the pit, then a 10 is just fine. But if you are trying to jump OVER the pit, then a 10 is only good if the pit is less than 10 feet across as per what SKR says.
I'm not talking about a grid at all. I'm saying that if the grid produces nonsensical results, then don't think in terms of the grid.
It's a long jump. Long jumps are measured from the starting line to the landing heel (or first mark in the sand, if it's not a standing landing). If that's 10', then you've jumped the 10' pit. Congratulations. If you don't make the 10 DC you haven't jumped the 10' pit and you're in trouble.
I imagine some folks are moving little Dolls around on the map also out of combat. The them, not mentioning any names, ignoring the grit May be hard:)
The rules are actually pretty clear if we take them at face value, using straightforward interpretation of the words used.
"The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical)."
To cross: "To go from one side of (something) to the other." That's from wiktionary. Different dictionaries have different wording, but they all boil down to the same thing.
To cross a 10' pit, that is, to go from one side of it to the other side of it, you need to make a DC 10 acrobatics check (if you have a running start of course).
And that's all there's to it. It makes for a simple and elegant rule too: jump over an obstacle x feet wide, make a DC x acrobatics check.
That is exactly true. Except for the part that "that's all there's to it." It is only true if you ignore the contradictory rules listed later, in the same paragraph I think.
Later it states that the distance moved is equal to the result of the roll (paraphrasing). If that is true, other interpretations gain a lot of validity.
It does not strengthen your argument to ignore the evidence of the opposing argument.
It is just as legitimate to go by the first rule: "DC = distance crossed" as it is to go by the second rule: "Result = distanced traveled." And while the author probably thought those two rules mean the same thing, most of us here realize they do not.
Give Nefreet some space as there is support for his claim. He is not making this stuff up.
I won't give it the first bit of credence. It's only contradictory if you're looking for contradictions. If you jump with your center of gravity right over the edge of a 10' pit, and you make a jump covering 10', you end up with your center of gravity exactly on the opposing edge. This is an eminently viable scenario for a body in motion. The jump will save you from going in on the one side, momentum will save you from falling in on the other side.
Also, as I posted before, legs can be at different angles on either side of the jump. People can bend at the waist and swivel their legs at the hips. So, at the start of the jump as well as at the end of the jump, at least one foot can be planted firmly, because people aren't vertically straight blocks of concrete taking up 5' x 5' of space. The reason they take up that area in the game is to allow them some personal space to move about in. Optimizing limb movement while jumping is just such moving around. Maybe that's why people fall prone when they miss the target DC of their intended jump, even if they just jump across a plain surface? They didn't execute their jump very well and their limbs are misaligned for an upright landing?
You do know he abandoned the 5' blocks of movement right?
And to ignore the second, contrary rule in the acrobatics rule does not make the first more valid.
It is exactly as valid as ignoring the first rule and going with the second which, by the way, is what Nefreet is now doing.
Vertical angles of approach don't have anything to do with it.
It is just as legitimate to go by the first rule: "DC = distance crossed" as it is to go by the second rule: "Result = distanced traveled." And while the author probably thought those two rules mean the same thing, most of us here realize they do not.
I don't see any meaningful difference. I move up to the edge of the ten foot pit. I jump. I travel ten feet during my jump. I have crossed ten feet during my jump. (There is also another five feet of non-jumping movement involved.)
Unless you want to go with the silly 'you travel as far as you rolled, even if you wanted to travel 10 feet and rolled a 25' interpretation.
So are we debating what seems rational? Or are we debating what the rules (and they're designers) actually say? Because there are many instances the two are not the same at all.
What they actually "say" seems to be up for a bit of debate, hence the need for alternate resolution, of which "don't mess up the laws of the universe" is one factor.
Not screwing over skills before fly makes them irrelevant would be another.
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If you know on average you can jump 10 feet, and you find a chasm that's 5-9 feet across, then you know you can jump across the cavern. And you don't have to make a roll to do it.
If the player asks "how far is it?," and the GM says "about 10 feet," and the player uses Take 10 because he knows his Take 10 result gets him 11 feet, that's fine.
This seems to indicate that a result of 10 is good enough for anything 9ft or less, but you'd need an 11 for a chasm that is 10ft.
So the answer to the OP seems to be DC 11.
To elaborate on my previous post, here's a picture.
Someone jumping, something I just dug up in google.
The extra bit of space for a safe take-off and landing is the 5' distance between your own bloody feet!
Edit: Byakko posted this a bit earlier. Is it really so hard for some people to imagine a profile view of someone leaping from his back foot in the first square and someone in a landing pose in the second square of his second scenario? I'd paste them in myself if I had decent image editing software at hand. It's is so incredibly obvious that you only have to jump 10' to safely cross a 10' pit. A trained athlete could probably clear it with a 9' jump, even!
Why do you constantly ignore questions that demonstrate the issue with your method?I have not ignored a single one. It may take several comments before I reply, but I'm not ignoring anything.
Odds are I've already answered it.
you ignored my statement on why it should be DC 10 over 11. you said it was interesting thought experiment, said he could jump 1 foot off the edge and then teleport, but i specifically did not mention anything about jumping. you outright did not actually reference anything i said even when quoting my material.
that's explicitly ignoring if i've ever seen.
I would ask that your accusatory tone be removed from this discussion.
I can only address so many comments at one time.
I am not lying or being deceitful. I wholeheartedly believe in my position and will defend it, just as you are with yours.
If you feel I'm ignoring something, it could be because: 1) I've already answered it or something like it earlier, 2) It's irrelevant to the discussion being had, or 3) It got lost in the shuffle of 10 comments being posted in one minute's time.
I'm sitting down and reading through the comments of the last 8 hours now. If something new has come up, I'll be replying to it.
considering i'm the ONLY one in the entire thread who has explained my view this way, it's unlikely to answered it.
since we take up 5 feet squares lets pretend for a moment i'm a giant 5x5x5 gelatinous cube.
I creep 2 feet off the edge and then jump forward 10 feet, I land on the other side with my 2 feet that were off the edge and keep going.
Basically regardless of how much space I take up if I get at least a portion of me off the ledge as I jump I will land on ground on the opposite side.
even if i only take up a point if i'm on the very boundary between the grids and jump forward 10 feet i will land on the other side.
the only time a 10 foot jump does not make a 10 foot pit is if you jump early, I have never seen someone jump from a foot or two back but jump as they enter the open air.
on the grid lines this is basically you roll to jump DURING the transition from ground->pit, thus giving you 10 feet of movement putting you at the transition on the other side of pit->ground.
this system works both ignoring and using the grid map. or a roll of 10 gives you 2 squares of "obstacle avoidance" movement.
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I'm inclined to house rule that if you meet the DC exactly (e.g., score a 15 when leaping across a 15-ft. pit), then you roll an Acrobatics check at the same DC to fall forward, instead of stumbling back on landing. (Of course, if your check exceeds the pit width by 1 or more, you make it no problem.)
If you've ever watched a long jump competition, there's always some poo schleb who has a good jump ruined by falling backwards when he lands. The chances of this are very low for better long jumpers (mirrored by the fact the second check after scoring low on the first one is quite unlikely, and is less likely the easier the jump is) -- and really good ones will never fall backwards at all except in extreme cases (e.g., take 10 to exactly clear a pit, then take 10 to fall forward).
If you know on average you can jump 10 feet, and you find a chasm that's 5-9 feet across, then you know you can jump across the cavern. And you don't have to make a roll to do it.If the player asks "how far is it?," and the GM says "about 10 feet," and the player uses Take 10 because he knows his Take 10 result gets him 11 feet, that's fine.This seems to indicate that a result of 10 is good enough for anything 9ft or less, but you'd need an 11 for a chasm that is 10ft.
So the answer to the OP seems to be DC 11.
this was brought up and talked about a long time ago. many people feel he is being "safe" and that he does not actually deny the possibility of a DC 10.
I'm inclined to house rule that if you meet the DC exactly (e.g., score a 15 when leaping across a 15-ft. pit), then you roll an Acrobatics check at the same DC to fall forward, instead of falling in. If your check exceeds the pit width by 1 or more, you make it no problem.
If you've ever watched a long jump competition, there's always some poo schleb who has a good jump ruined by falling backwards when he lands. The chances of this are very low for better long jumpers (mirrored by the fact the second check after scoring low on the first one is quite unlikely, and is less likely the easier the jump is) -- and really good ones will never fall backwards at all except in extreme cases (e.g., take 10 to exactly clear a pit, then take 10 to fall forward).
the actual acrobatics check says if you fail by less than 4 you get a DC 20 reflex save to grab the ledge.
The actual acrobatics check says if you fail by less than 4 you get a DC 20 reflex save to grab the ledge.
So we're already covered, in a sense. I'm less happy about a static save (so that you can't take 10), though.
I'm inclined to house rule that if you meet the DC exactly (e.g., score a 15 when leaping across a 15-ft. pit), then you roll an Acrobatics check at the same DC to fall forward, instead of stumbling back on landing. (Of course, if your check exceeds the pit width by 1 or more, you make it no problem.)
If you've ever watched a long jump competition, there's always some poo schleb who has a good jump ruined by falling backwards when he lands. The chances of this are very low for better long jumpers (mirrored by the fact the second check after scoring low on the first one is quite unlikely, and is less likely the easier the jump is) -- and really good ones will never fall backwards at all except in extreme cases (e.g., take 10 to exactly clear a pit, then take 10 to fall forward).
Yup. this is what I posted a looooong time ago...
the actual acrobatics check says if you fail by less than 4 you get a DC 20 reflex save to grab the ledge.I'm inclined to house rule that if you meet the DC exactly (e.g., score a 15 when leaping across a 15-ft. pit), then you roll an Acrobatics check at the same DC to fall forward, instead of falling in. If your check exceeds the pit width by 1 or more, you make it no problem.
If you've ever watched a long jump competition, there's always some poo schleb who has a good jump ruined by falling backwards when he lands. The chances of this are very low for better long jumpers (mirrored by the fact the second check after scoring low on the first one is quite unlikely, and is less likely the easier the jump is) -- and really good ones will never fall backwards at all except in extreme cases (e.g., take 10 to exactly clear a pit, then take 10 to fall forward).
That also works. But you are hanging by your fingertips/elbows from the ledge then; an exact roll would at least mean your feet were at ground level...
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this was brought up and talked about a long time ago. many people feel he is being "safe" and that he does not actually deny the possibility of a DC 10.
It's true that it was brought up and discussed. But in the absence of any other DEV input what we still have are two rules in Acrobatics that seem to conflict with each other and the words of a Developer who gives weight and favor to the second one.
So unless/until another DEV somewhere has provided input or clarity to this matter, it appears the DC 11 argument is holding the most weight out of the three...that the Acrobatics check result reflects the distance traveled and you must travel/cross 11+ feet to get past a 10ft gap.
But all that aside, again I don't think it really matters. So what if a GM wants to give me a DC of 10 instead of 11 or 15. Easier for my guy to make the jump. I'm ok with that. :)
this was brought up and talked about a long time ago. many people feel he is being "safe" and that he does not actually deny the possibility of a DC 10.It's true that it was brought up and discussed. But in the absence of any other DEV input what we still have are two rules in Acrobatics that seem to conflict with each other and the words of a Developer who gives weight and favor to the second one.
So unless/until another DEV somewhere has provided input or clarity to this matter, it appears the DC 11 argument is holding the most weight out of the three...that the Acrobatics check result reflects the distance traveled and you must travel/cross 11+ feet to get past a 10ft gap.
But all that aside, again I don't think it really matters. So what if a GM wants to give me a DC of 10 instead of 11 or 15. Easier for my guy to make the jump. I'm ok with that. :)
he really only clarified that he didn't believe DC 15 was correct.
on your last statement this is why I have yet to FAQ this.a GM will have their own ruling one way or another and the game isn't worse off for any of them.
If you want to jump 5' you need to jump 10'.
... thats an outright contradiction.
To be fair, to move through an occupied 5ft square, you consume 10ft of movement.
If you are adjacent to a 5ft hole and you take a 5ft step, you are going to fall.
Except when the player assumes one thing and the GM assumes another and the Player takes 10 with his +2 to jump the pit and the GM knows he needs 15, so he falls.
Or alternately, the GM is wondering why the PCs are coming up with elaborate plans to get safely across the pit they can easily just jump.
first case, the GM probably tells you that you can't take 10 and succeed. I know i don't let people take 10 if it spells doom.(what's even at the bottom of this pit, snakes? spikes? moat of crocodiles? a trampoline?)
the second case, I'd probably not let people take 10 on jumping and I'd be fine with this as it could mean they can escape in combat more readily.
Official Rules Response
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Jumping: If I want to jump over a 10-foot pit, is the DC 10, like the table says, or is it higher, since I need to move a total of 15 feet to reach a non-pit square?
The DC is still 10 to jump over a 10-foot pit. You do move a total of 15 feet when you make that jump, but some of that is not required to be part of the jump. One way to visualize it is to think of it as walking/running the 2–1/2 feet from the center of your original square to the edge of the pit, jumping the pit right to the other edge, and then walking the 2–1/2 feet to the center of the new square.
Thanks for the double special!
AAAANNNNNDDDD Scene!
NEFREET YOU WASTED SO MUCH TIME.
but i love you for it so it's okay.
Can't close the scene until the big "NOOOOOOOOO!"
Didn't you take ANY ranks in perform drama?
Or tragedy ... not sure which..
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now we just need to move onto the important issues.
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The rules are actually pretty clear if we take them at face value, using straightforward interpretation of the words used.
"The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical)."
To cross: "To go from one side of (something) to the other." That's from wiktionary. Different dictionaries have different wording, but they all boil down to the same thing.
To cross a 10' pit, that is, to go from one side of it to the other side of it, you need to make a DC 10 acrobatics check (if you have a running start of course).
And that's all there's to it. It makes for a simple and elegant rule too: jump over an obstacle x feet wide, make a DC x acrobatics check.
That's absolutely one way to interpret the Acrobatics description.
The other is found later, covering total "distance traveled".
Just as with movement, if your figurine is placed 3 squares away from its starting square, that is 15ft of distance traveled.
And, so, believing that jumping over a 10ft pit requires a DC higher than 10 is equally as valid of an interpretation.
(whether that makes the DC 11, or 15, can also be up for debate. Although I'm personally leaning more towards 11, now, not everyone is, and so the 3 possibilities up for FAQ are all still equally valid)
FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOM!
BigNorseWolf we know it's you!
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Can I try a third camp of explanation? Totally abstract, just looking at the movement.
Let's just consider the movement, ignoring, just for a moment, the fact that you leave the ground. You pay out movement and suffer penalties or have to make acrobatics rolls for moving based on the square you move to, not from, correct? Let's do a 5ft pit first. We're going to move 20ft total.
(Start)(Clear)(Clear)(Pit)(Clear)
Moving to a clear square is 5ft movement, no roll required.
Move to another clear square, 5ft movement, no roll.
Moving into a pit square costs 5ft movement and requires a DC 5 Acrobatics check, because it is only 5ft wide, to not fall in. Can't stop movement here or you fall no matter how high you roll (for the sake of this demo).
Moving to the next open square is 5ft movement, no roll required.
Total traveled 20ft, DC 5 for the pit. No muss, no fuss, movement rules complied with. Now we try a 10ft pit, moving 25ft.
(Start)(Clear)(Clear)(Pit)(Pit)(Clear)
Moving to a clear square is 5ft movement, no roll required.
Move to another clear square, 5ft movement, no roll.
Moving into a pit square costs 5ft movement and requires a DC 10 Acrobatics check, because the pit is now 10ft wide, to not fall in and to be able to continue to move to the next square. Can't stop movement here or you fall no matter how high you roll (for the sake of this demo).
Moving into the next pit square costs 5ft movement, and you are moving here only because you made the DC 10 check, otherwise >5 but <10 and you are falling here instead. Same no stopping here.
Moving to the next open square is 5ft movement, no roll required.
Done and done. No calculations, just movement. Square to square, center to center.
This still requires the "Looney Tunes floating in midair" tactic that many of us just simply cannot accept.
stuff
we already won.
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Nefreet can take his own space. As 750 posts in 2 1/2 days show. But he is still playing in minecraft world. Edit: just adding a :) to show that i am not angry, bitter, mad or somthing else along that Line....
Give Nefreet some space as there is support for his claim. He is not making this stuff up.
=)
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welp i guess this is going to make it to 800 posts before nefreet reads the designer post.
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welp i guess this is going to make it to 800 posts before nefreet reads the designer post.
Well he needs to work his way down from his last seen and respond to things before he gets to that one.
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welp i guess this is going to make it to 800 posts before nefreet reads the designer post.Well he needs to work his way down from his last seen and respond to things before he gets to that one.
I'm excited for the big reveal.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yay!
>'.'<