I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere, I hadn't seen an instance of this.
I've become more and more disillusioned with the balancing of dex melee users requiring so much to get set up compared to pretty much any other starting build. The idea of the balance makes sense at very low levels (AC, Combat Reflexes, etc.), but as the levels get higher it very quickly becomes irrelevant. Two feats, dipping into classes you don't want, or enchantments that could be better utilized to make it work at all seems like too high of a price to pay.
Randall the Rogue is definitely gonna be better off than Bernice the Barbarian at lvl 1 without the required two feat investment. That's not gonna be the case once they start getting to about lvl 5 though because of various other options.
At the end of the day, i know as the GM i can rule whatever way i want to, but no matter which way I look at this, I can't seem to justify the decision. Am I missing something?
you must be, I'll take a Dex based melee over a STR any day of the week.
For rogue type builds, you go max DEX, TWF, for pure rogue Kukri's are nice, if combined with Knife master. be sure to do your best to get sneak, either a travel item to get into flanking, or an invisibility method.
this base idea works well with ninjas and arcane tricksters
For a fighter type build, go max dex, do pure archery build, by 11th level you should be shooting 6 arrows round, and doing about 100 damage. About this time you don't need any more archery feats, so switch to TWF, shortswords work great, be sure to look into effortless lace.
I'll admit Andre the barbarian will do more damage in a single hit, but you will get far more hits than he does, and you will go before him.
the archer builds in my group got so bad that we had to ban them, as they would kill the BBEG before anyone, even the bad guys go to go.
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Take a look on what Strength gives, without any feats or features:
-Bonus to Hit in melee
-Bonus to Damage in melee and thrown, with one and a half to two-handed or two-weapons
-Bonus to Climb and Swim
-Bonus to CMB and CMD
-Carry capacity
-Break objects
Now, take a look on what Dexterity gives:
-Bonus to AC
-Bonus to Initiative
-Bonus to Reflexes
-Bonus to Hit in ranged
-Bonus to Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth
-Bonus to CMD
Strength is all about combat and offense. Climb and Swim are usually irrelevant and can spells can solve obstacles involving them from level 1. Carry capacity is also seldom used, many times ignored, and also solvable with minimum resources. Many classes have no use for Strength and dump it.
Dexterity is much more versatile, involving defense (AC, Ref, CMD, and to an extent Init) as well as many useful skills. Everyone needs Dexterity and the only ones that can deal with a low score are combatants in heavy armor, but even so they do so reluctantly.
All Strength-based combatants want a good Dexterity if possible, while Dexterity-based combatants want a good Strength if possible. Considering just the baseline, they are pretty balanced.
Now there is the difference between melee and ranged. With melee you are more vulnerable and need to spend more actions moving around, while with ranged the opposite occur. This favours ranged (and Dexterity) a lot. Dex-based characters are thus both good in melee and ranged, being much more versatile.
Strength-based feats and abilities usually focus on increasing damage, while Dexterity-based feats and abilities usually focus on increasing the number of attacks, which indirectly also increase damage. While this might seem balanced, it is important to point out that many class features that involve damage are a bonus to each attack, so to get the most of them you need more attacks (cavalier's challenge, fighter's weapon training, paladin's smite, ranger's favored enemy, rogue's sneak attack, and so on), which make Dex-based more efficient.
Now we can look at abilities and feats that let you use one stat over another. There are very few ways to use Strength in place of Dexterity modifiers, while it is pretty trivial to get to use Dexterity in place of Strength to Hit and damage, which are basically what Strength is for, so Dex-based builds basically can use the points spend in Str into other stats to gain even more value.
All in all, I actually believe Dex-based builds are way to common and efficient and should sooner be nerfed with house rules. If you buff them you basically invalidate Strength-based builds entirely, leading to even less variation in the table.
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The 2 classes that are more or less designed to be dex based melee (swashbuckler, unchained rogue) get weapon finesse for free, and rogue gets Dex to damage at 3rd.
There are feats for Dex to damage, and certain abilities boost weapon damage if dex is used to attack and str to damage, which will often give a higher bonus to damage than Dex would have
The real difference lies in available build paths, I suppose. And how people tend to build their DEX characters.
People who dump their STR to 7 because they know they'll get DEX-to-dmg later on deserve to suck at the early levels. And it's often compounded by DEX builds choosing small races with STR penalties in addition to lower dmg dice, while already being limited to weapons with low dmg dice.So what we're really trying to "balance" is a medium sized Barbarian who put their focus in a Stat made for dmg, and a small sized twerp who dumped theirs.
I've seen a number of low-Str, high-Dex builds, but dumping Str can be risky: If you get hit by even a tiny amount of Str penalty or damage, you could suddenly find yourself encumbered or even overloaded. It also severely limits the type and amount of weapons and armor you can carry--especially at low levels, before you can afford things like mithral armor, bracers of armor, or a handy haversack. And when your limits are that low, each of those solutions still takes up a significant portion of your carrying capacity.
Another poster pointed out that carrying capacity is often ignored in play, but if some players are consistently dumping Str, that could be a sign that those limits need to be enforced a bit more often.
Not long after I started playing PFS, I wondered why Merisiel's stat block gave her a 14 Str when she's obviously a Dex-based rogue. Then I calculated the weight of her gear, and she actually needed that high a Str to stay at a light load. Granted, she does carry an excessive number of daggers, which add up quickly, but she also had a reasonable assortment of practical adventuring gear. Her build doesn't stand up (literally!) if she lacks the Str to carry what she needs to succeed in the dungeon.
If something is expensive to do and then many people proceed to do that thing anyway, then it's probably not too weak.
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Another poster pointed out that carrying capacity is often ignored in play, but if some players are consistently dumping Str, that could be a sign that those limits need to be enforced a bit more often.
I agree with you. In truth, we as GMs should endeavor to use all the presented rules, but some of them, as written, are just so crunchy and time consuming that it soon becomes impractical.
What I usually do is take a look on my players and see if there is anyone I need to keep a closer look in regards to encumberment. As an example, in a Reign of Winter game I'm GMing, I have two Dex-based characters, one is a rogue with 12 Str/18 Dex and the other a magus with Str 8/23 Dex, so I know I need to make sure the magus is not abusing it.
While you have to invest more for a DEX based melee character you get a high return on the investment. All STR provides is offensive ability and some utility (climb, swim, carrying capacity etc.). DEX without any investment provides a lot of defensive ability and significant utility. That is why you rarely see anyone buying down DEX. STR on the other hand is one of the few stats that you do see characters buying down. A lot of arcane casters or DEX based characters end up buying down STR.
Full BAB DEX based melee classes can often dump STR to boost up DEX even higher. I have seen a lot of Swashbuckler builds posted on the forums with a STR of 7. I have never seen a STR based fighter build posted on the forums with a DEX of 7. Usually, the STR based melee combatant has a 12-13 DEX.
Take a 2nd level fighter using a 20 point buy as an example. Both fighters have a 14 CON and 12 in CHA or WIS. The first fighter dumps STR to 7 and has a 20 DEX (after racial adjustment), The second fighter dumps DEX to 7 and has a 20 STR (after racial adjustment). The first fighter takes weapon finesse, weapon focus (rapier) and fencing grace. The second fighter takes power attack, weapon focus falchion, and Furious focus. The first fighter uses a masterwork rapier and leaf armor, the second has a masterwork falchion and masterwork banded mail. The first fighter has a AC of 18 one attack at +9 doing 1d6+5 damage and a reflex save of +5. The second fighter has an AC of15 one attack at +9 doing 2d4+10 damage and a reflex save of -2. The first fighter has an initiate of +5 to the seconds. The first fighter has a move of 30 to the seconds 20.
The first fighter has a lot better survivability than the second one. He is going to be taking a lot more damage than the first. Spells like entangle, grease and ray of enfeeblement are going to affect him a lot more. He takes a -7 on his acrobatics or stealth compared to a +5 for the first fighter.
Hmmm... I'm seeing a few things I was unaware of. I appreciate the input everyone :)
The poor Monk has no options for Dex to damage with unarmed strike and they are a Dex based class.
I hate that the Dex to damage feats are too specialized. There should have been only one feat that lets you pick any one weapon that is a finesse weapon(including unarmed strike and natural attacks) plus the requirements should only be weapon finesse and Dex 13.
The poor Monk has no options for Dex to damage with unarmed strike and they are a Dex based class.
I hate that the Dex to damage feats are too specialized. There should have been only one feat that lets you pick any one weapon that is a finesse weapon(including unarmed strike and natural attacks) plus the requirements should only be weapon finesse and Dex 13.
I'm pretty sure a Monk is more STR based than DEX based, and Even more WIS based than either of those.
While you can do a DEX based build, with an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile enhancement, it seems the STR build is somewhat better.
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Monk is Dex-based as much as a fighter, ranger and paladin, which is to say they are not unless you want to make it so. Un-Rogue and Swashbuckler are Dex-based and this is obvious because they even get Weapon Finesse for free! Hell, Weapon Finesse isn't even on the list of feats they gain as bonus and a big part of the flurry of blows feature is that you get multiple attacks even with a poor Dex!
I completely disagree about the idea of having easier Dex to damage options. All attributes should be important. Sure, having some options to use one instead of the other here and there is cool, but too much and it is ruined.
If you are building a DPR monk you probably want to go with Dragon Style and take Power Attack. That is not a DEX based build. Even a DEX based monk is probably not going to want to dump STR because it also affects thrown weapons like shuriken.
While a DEX based build should require some investment maybe Piazo did restrict DEX to damage too much. I don’t think it would have hurt to allow a combat feat that allowed any single weapon that works with weapon finesse to get DEX to damage.
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Kinda like what Sir Longears said, it's all about balance.
Should there be an armor property to add STR to AC?
Should there be a feat to add STR to Initiative?
Should there be a feat to add STR to Reflex saves?
Even if your answer is "yes" then should STR-based classes be able to get them for free? There are options to add Dex to hit (Weapon Finesse), Dex to damage (agile weapon property), and scaling damage with BAB (Piranha Strike, the equivalent of Power Attack but intended for Dex builds). Or you could be a "balanced" build - a mix of strength and dexterity. It's all about what you choose to prioritize.
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Monks want dex because they can't wear any armor. So they need to pump their AC anyway they can.
I love dex builds but it is a lot easier to build str based characters. EITR helps by giving Weapon Finesse for free, but it also gives Power Attack for free so that balances out.
Monks can’t wear armor but their wisdom to armor puts them on par with light or medium armor users. And they can still benefit from mage armors to stay pretty competitive as far as armor goes.
I think the real draw to dexterity is that they don’t have a maximum dexterity bonus to armor like an actual armor user has.
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Kinda like what Sir Longears said, it's all about balance.
Should there be an armor property to add STR to AC?
Should there be a feat to add STR to Initiative?
Should there be a feat to add STR to Reflex saves?Even if your answer is "yes" then should STR-based classes be able to get them for free? There are options to add Dex to hit (Weapon Finesse), Dex to damage (agile weapon property), and scaling damage with BAB (Piranha Strike, the equivalent of Power Attack but intended for Dex builds). Or you could be a "balanced" build - a mix of strength and dexterity. It's all about what you choose to prioritize.
This is exactly my point. Balance depends on trade offs.
As a base, you need both Str and Dex (and Con) for being effective in combat. You want to focus on Str? No problem, but your defense will suffer. Do you want to focus on Dex? No problem, but your damage will suffer. But I don't want to deal less damage (or have a poor defense)! Ok, then you'll need to spend some some other resources like feats and gold to compensate.
IMO, it is somewhat balanced as it is. If I'm completely honest, I feel that there are many more feats/options to help with Dex-based builds than Str-based builds, but nothing is too broken. Dex do NOT need any more help, but if you do it as a house-rule, it would only be fair to buff Str-based options as well.
Wanting DEX is not the same thing as being DEX based. Most classes actually want DEX. Unless you are using heavy armor all classes benefit from DEX. Many arcane casters prioritize DEX after their casting stat. That does not make sorcerers and wizards DEX based.
An unchained monk is better off prioritizing WIS over DEX. They will still want a decent DEX, but WIS will be higher. Since the unchained monk has poor Will saves, WIS boost that as well as AC and most of their other class features.
I'm playing a DEX based fighter in a new campaign. I chose the Two Weapon Warrior archetype for the express purpose of using DEX to hit via Weapon Finesse (he only uses light weapons) and the GM let me dig way back to D&D 3.0 fo the Ambidextrous feat (eliminates off-hand penalties). I don't think I'll do DEX for damage, though. His STR is less than his DEX but not by enough to invest in a feat to swap the abilities.
This is a difficult debate because it tends to hinge on subjective opinions or generalized assessments. It's made that much more complicated by the fact that the game encourages players to max out or tank their characters' ability scores in a way that serves optimization more so than "realism."
Having looked at the spreadsheet breakdowns the smarter people on these boards have done over the years, I think the gap in damage between Dexterity- and Strength-based builds is a lot narrower than most posters might expect. The real difference, as many have said on this thread, comes down to the other applications of each ability score.
I think there's far more of a case to be made for melee builds in general being inferior to ranged builds in general... and I'd offer that this is even more true where mounted archers are concerned. For that bunch, moving and attacking--to include full attacks, and to include with multiple move actions--are not only possible, but the default. At the same time, it's the means by which they stay out of harm's way. Compared to those disparities, I think considerations like 1-2 points of AC or having to drop a backpack before combat (something that is just as true today) become wholly secondary.
(And yes, I totally get that I closed off my post with a subjective, generalized opinion. Mea culpa!)
Isn't melee DPR for Dex builds based more around # of attacks/round and add-ons like Sneak Attack though?
It's not directly about dex, it's about limiting weapons. Strength-based builds with two-handed weapons have a high base damage from the weapon, Str, and PA. You can't have too much bonus damage or to many bonus attacks with that without it becoming imbalanced. Thus, such options need to limit what weapon they can be used with, and many of those options coincide with 'finessability'.
There are str-based builds with high damage bonus (e.g. Jabbing Style) and high number of attacks (e.g. natural weapons, Monks).
If you are building a DPR monk you probably want to go with Dragon Style and take Power Attack.
No, if you want to build a (good) DPR cMonk, you go Pummeling Style. Power Attack is not actually good for cMonk. And by the way, Dragon Style is actually the one unMonk build where you don't want Power Attack (not counting Jabbing Style which doesn't want it but has to take it).
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also theres a few things that add damage to attacks that use dex to hit and str to damage, which out paces dex to damage numbers. Otherwise uc rogue gets dex to damage, or theres feats like dervish dance, or the "grace" feats
Trained Grace (Ex)
When the fighter uses Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with a weapon, using his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls. The fighter must have Weapon Finesse in order to choose this option.
Shifter's Edge
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, shifter claws class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you use Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with your claws or a natural attack augmented by your claws, and you use your Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you also add half your shifter level to the damage.
Precise Strike (Ex)
At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her off hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit.
Graceful Strike (Ex)
At 4th level, when the warrior poet uses Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack that adds her Dexterity bonus to attack rolls and her Strength bonus to damage rolls, she also adds half her samurai level to damage rolls.
Finesse Training (Ex)
At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.
Fencing Grace (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier).
Benefit: When wielding a rapier one-handed, you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The rapier must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or anytime another hand is otherwise occupied.
In addition, if you have the panache class feature, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMD against attempts to disarm you of your rapier while you have at least 1 panache point.
Slashing Grace (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
Dervish Dance (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Agile
Aura moderate transmutation CL 7th
Slot none; Price +1 bonus; Weight —
A character with Weapon Finesse can apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons. This weapon special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
The hidden benefit to STR build is that you typically just need combat reflexes and power attack to be viable, and can then use remaining feats for other things.
You can also keep improving your offense (Felling smash is eventually a semi pounce, against targets that can be tripped) or more importantly your defense (toughness, Iron will, steadfast personality for cha melees).
Meanwhile, adding these feats to a dex build is simply harder.
If elephant in the room is active, I freuqently go for some mild CMB abilities on a str based melee character, if it is not I go for stuff to pass saves, become faster (improved init), to gain more utility (f.e. extra background traits) or to get more options (combat stamina).
Some basic feat should have been written thus:
You’re an expert with weapons that rely on your agility.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: When using Weapon Finesse, you may also use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on your damage rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty doesn’t apply to either the attack rolls or the damage rolls.
Then you can get Dex-to-Damage on an elven curved blade or on both an elven leafblade and elven thornblade. Lots of options rather than just rapier or scimitar or applying slashing grace multiple times to multiple weapons that are piercing and slashing.
And adding Agile on a TWF build is just so expensive and inflexible for weapon choices in a game with so many types of DR. I'd rather spend this mythical feat and can now get the Dex to damage with a pair of saps for non-lethal fights, some light maces for bludgeoning, etc.
Unfortunately, this feat that I copied above is only available in Mythic Adventures as Weapon Finesse (Mythic).
Note that for TWF you will need each of these:
TWF
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Finesse (Mythic) [or your choice of one weapon as per Fencing Grace/Slashing Grace/Dervish Dance/Unchained Rogue levels 3-10 Finesse Training]
Double-Slice [which as-written works with a Strength bonus and not a Dex bonus despite having a Dex requirement]
Given the static damage modifiers that a two-handed martial can put out with just a good Strength and Power Attack [with their own options to take weapon focus/furious focus to improve To Hit], I don't think getting Dex to Damage on the finesse weapons is overpowered.
However, it is true that a character with a Strength of 7 really shouldn't be able to wear any armor and should have to take the penalties to hit and damage. There should basically be a minimum Strength of 10 required for martials [which my GM set as the minimum in our home game with a generous 25-point buy].
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Personally I believe there is no better argument to prove how out of line, in terms of balance, a single feat that easily gives Dex to damage is then showing there is a Mythical feat that does just that, as these are notoriously overpowered by design.
Seriously, with just two feats you turn one ability score basically irrelevant. Which are the two feats that would let a Str-based build get armor, initiative and reflexes?
My problem with dex to damage is that strength is removed entirely.
Besides magic, there's really no excuse for strength not being a factor in how much damage you do.
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Just mentioning that the feat two weapon grace exists...
Two-Weapon Grace (Combat)
Source Villain Codex pg. 224
You can fight using agility instead of brute strength, even while fighting with two weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 15; Fencing GraceUI, Slashing GraceACG, or Starry GraceUI; Two-Weapon Fighting; Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: You can gain the benefit of the Fencing GraceUI, Slashing GraceACG, or Starry GraceUI feats while fighting with two weapons. Your penalties from two-weapon fighting increase by 2 on all attack rolls you make when doing so, and you can’t decrease the penalties to less than –2 even if other abilities would reduce the penalties further. Add 1/2 your Dexterity bonus to damage with your off-hand weapon instead of 1/2 your Strength modifier. If you attack without using your off-hand weapon, you can use the aforementioned feats despite your other hand being occupied.
In addition, Two-Weapon Grace counts as Double Slice for the purposes of qualifying for the Two-Weapon Rend feat.
Normal: You gain no benefit from the listed feats if you don’t have a free hand.
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Just mentioning that the feat two weapon grace exists...
Two-Weapon Grace (Combat)
Source Villain Codex pg. 224
You can fight using agility instead of brute strength, even while fighting with two weapons.Prerequisites: Dex 15; Fencing GraceUI, Slashing GraceACG, or Starry GraceUI; Two-Weapon Fighting; Weapon Finesse.
Benefit: You can gain the benefit of the Fencing GraceUI, Slashing GraceACG, or Starry GraceUI feats while fighting with two weapons...
That is true and that is fine because you need: "Weapon" Grace, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus.
I'm totally fine with Dex to damage as long as you make an effort for it. There are many ways to do it and you've pointed out earlier and I'm ok with those. I just do not want a generic Dex to damage feat that requires only Weapon Finesse as a tax.
I have to agree that a DEX based build should require some effort. In reality DEX based builds are on par with STR based builds and maybe even a little more powerful. I wrote up a couple of DEX based paladins and inquisitors with the existing rules, and they all turned out to be incredibly good. Neither class has good reflex saves or touch AC. The higher DEX fixed those weaknesses. If you can manage to get evasion on the inquisitor, he pretty much ignores most spells after 11th level.
My problem with dex to damage is that strength is removed entirely.
Besides magic, there's really no excuse for strength not being a factor in how much damage you do.
Having trained as a fencer in college, I can assure you that you can deal a bunch of damage with mostly dex, and little str, simply by hitting the right spot.
I have to agree that a DEX based build should require some effort. In reality DEX based builds are on par with STR based builds and maybe even a little more powerful. I wrote up a couple of DEX based paladins and inquisitors with the existing rules, and they all turned out to be incredibly good. Neither class has good reflex saves or touch AC. The higher DEX fixed those weaknesses. If you can manage to get evasion on the inquisitor, he pretty much ignores most spells after 11th level.
At the end of the day, I think it's worth recognizing that the designers' intent behind designing these builds is largely aimed at ensuring game balance (in this case, relative to Strength builds). Given that different designers worked on different aspects of the game at different times, it's perhaps inevitable that certain builds will outperform others.
Having trained as a fencer in college, I can assure you that you can deal a bunch of damage with mostly dex, and little str, simply by hitting the right spot.
With respect, citing real-world attributes in a generalized manner isn't going to resolve a debate on tabletop mechanics.
If we go down the realism rabbit hole, we inevitably end up at the fact that one's ability to damage a human body with a quick thrust with a light piercing weapon has historically had more to do with the presence or absence of armor than one's ability to do so despite having little "muscle and physical power" (which is how the game measures Strength). "Strength builds" are inspired by a historical need to batter aside heavy weapons and/or shields, and to penetrate increasingly resilient and sophisticated armor. "Dexterity builds" are inspired by the increasing obsolescence of "Strength builds" given the corresponding obsolescence of armor. "Strength builds" and "Dexterity" builds nonetheless coexist because Paizo, like Wizards of the Coast and TSR before them, don't mind settings were technologies from two or more distinct eras overlap.
In either case, at no point in real world time did professional melee combatants "tank" their "muscle and physical power" to the point that they were well below that of the average person so as to somehow increase their damage output. Training and experience can certainly allow combatants to overcome such a deficit, but that's a different matter.
Having trained as a fencer in college, I can assure you that you can deal a bunch of damage with mostly dex, and little str, simply by hitting the right spot.My problem with dex to damage is that strength is removed entirely.
Besides magic, there's really no excuse for strength not being a factor in how much damage you do.
Maybe. But hitting those spots with more or less force will do more or less damage. Also that sounds more like precision damage or favored enemy than dexterity to damage. Could you use those same skills to fight a bear or a wolf?
I don’t mean to offend anyone with what I am about to say so please do not take what I am about to say personally. Another big problem with using your own experiences is that most people overestimate themselves. Taking a fencing class in college does not make you a high or even mid-level fighter. Most people are going to be commoners or at best experts and will be fairly low level. Peoples stats are also going to be far lower than what is commonly seen in the game.
A college student is probably in game terms a 1st commoner. Unless you are trying to qualify for the Olympics your physical stats are not going to be that high, probably a 12 at most. Modern life puts more emphasis on mental stats so a person from modern times will probably have better INT than those is the past, but their physical stats will probably be lower. With only 4 HP the average damage from a rapier with no bonus to damage will likely take out the typical college student.