I'm making a greek mythology campaign and need imput


Homebrew and House Rules

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Well I need input on classes would be allowed how they would be allowed like how would wizards work? Or would smaller crossbows have been invented yet and yes I know of scorpions.


More information would be nice, like which books are allowed, 3PP, how mythological you want it to be. As for classes, fighter, cleric, bard or orlace would fit


You might want to check this out. It was written back in the 3.5 days, but shouldn't require a whole lot of tweaking to make work.


Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Sorcerer should all work perfectly, as should Magus, Oracle, or Witch. Any of the hybrid classes of those groups should work perfectly too. The martial artist archetype of Monk should work, as should the brawler.

If you want a heroes-are-non-magical vibe to it (as was traditional in Greek myths), then take the casters out of that list. On the other hand, Orpheus and his near-magical music is part of myth, as is Medea and her magic, so I don't think this is necessary.


Their is 3rd party material listing a class called the Hellenic Sorceress... Very Kirke (Circe) of the Odyssey fame.

Pretty much re-flavoring of most classes should get you something Greek-esque feeling. I might avoid the Wizard/Magus classes only because learning magic via study seems contrary to the ancient greek myth. Seems like "the gods" were always the ones giving divine inspiration for those things.

Scarab Sages

You might also want to check out Relics & Rituals: Olympus. I've looked at the book before, and it looks like a great resource to reference.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1318/Relics--Rituals-Olympus?term=relic s+%26+Rituals%3A+&it=1

Also checkout The Trojan War Sourcebook from Green Ronin. This might help you out, as well.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/19168/Trojan-War?cPath=1487_4975&it =1

Tarrintino


Basic classes like bard, cleric, fighter, and rogue would work. Probably you could have rangers. Oracles would definitely fit, though they might work a bit differently than usual. Witches could be possible as might sorcerers (particularly of some divine bloodline). Greeks had cavalry so cavaliers could happen. The magus might be possible.

You definitely want to avoid paladins. Greeks were into various wrestling and other forms of hand to hand combat, so it just might be possible to tweak the monks. Druids, barbarians, and wizards are more on the fence. Most of the stories in Greek myths involve fighter types, though there are some oracles, bards, and witches.


What's in the box? wrote:
I might avoid the Wizard/Magus classes only because learning magic via study seems contrary to the ancient greek myth.

I dunno, that seems to me pretty much like the Telchines' [q.v.] schtick. Remember that in Greek, the word for sorcery and for drugs is the same: pharmaekia. I could pretty easily justify an alchemist in ancient Greece -- he's a student of pharmaekia.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The archetypal wizard actually owes a lot of it's trappings to the mystery cults of the Greeks. In fact, the term "hermetic" meaning secret or occult refers to magical societies such as those surrounding figures like the god Hermes. The blaster wizard isn't a Greek mythological archetype, but then, it's not commonly encountered in Northern European sagas, either.

Barbarian - This was a stereotype held by the Greeks of the people we now call Chinese and Malays, and to a lesser extent, the Latins and central Africans (particularly the mythical Amazons). Some characters like Herakles also make sense as barbarians.
Bards - Orpheus is the notable example, outside of Celtic lore
Cleric - Not usually a part of myth, simply because to the Greeks, high priests and oracles were not found on the battlefield. I cannot think of any character in the Greek myths who acted like a cleric, excepting perhaps the gods Ares and Athene themselves.
Fighter - Lots of fighters.
Monk - Rare, but the Greeks were fond of both unarmed martial arts (and may have indirectly created kung fu) and esoteric religious practices, so they don't seem completely out of place. However, the Hellenic era predates the Shao Lin monks themselves.
Paladin - Not without substantial modification. Heroes in Greek myth weren't blessed by the gods, they were fated.
Ranger - There are many examples of exceptional hunters in Greek myth, including some capable of feats similar to minor spells. Archetypes that replace spellcasting with Ex abilities make this a no-brainer.
Rogue - Odysseus and Paris are both arguably fighter/rogues; Perseus almost certainly is. In any case, every society has its thug and burglars.
Sorcerer - Most sorcerers were not precisely human, but you could always tweak that, or simply emphasis the Bloodline concept more strongly. Circe is a notable sorcerer.
Wizard - Medea springs to mind as an inspiration, as well as Daedalus, the architect of the Labyrinth.


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Not much to change about the classes. Although you could ban all classes except for Rogue Genius Games' Godlings.

Sovereign Court

Warpriests and clerics can make decent of champion of X god. Use god of war games for inspiration...they have some pretty nice stuffs in there.

Grand Lodge

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Here is a Greek Source Book. It may help in your adventures.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DarkxInitiative wrote:
Well I need input on classes would be allowed how they would be allowed like how would wizards work? Or would smaller crossbows have been invented yet and yes I know of scorpions.

I would highly recommend that you buy and download Sean Reynold's Games,"The New Argonauts D20" supplement sold here. It's about 5 bucks and will be an excellent resource for doing the Classical Age Greek flavor. It's got maps, background, character options, and classes easily importable to Pathfinder mechanics.

Also has excellent guidelines for running an Olympic (or Heraic for female athetes) Games.


One thing to bear in mind is how equipment may change. Heavy armor of the sort that is standard in more medieval fantasy (plate mail, etc.) was not developed by the Greeks, who went about more lightly armored. This is great news for the non-martials, but will impact martials quite a lot (particularly Fighters). It will be even more noticeable if you set this in a Bronze-Age era. You might need to compensate by giving some alternative type of armor bonus (such as has been used in systems like d20 modern and the like).

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cthulhudrew wrote:
One thing to bear in mind is how equipment may change. Heavy armor of the sort that is standard in more medieval fantasy (plate mail, etc.) was not developed by the Greeks, who went about more lightly armored. This is great news for the non-martials, but will impact martials quite a lot (particularly Fighters). It will be even more noticeable if you set this in a Bronze-Age era. You might need to compensate by giving some alternative type of armor bonus (such as has been used in systems like d20 modern and the like).

D20 Argonauts has extensive guidelines for bronze age armor and arms. It's great five buck investment for running a campaign like this.


LazarX wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:
One thing to bear in mind is how equipment may change. Heavy armor of the sort that is standard in more medieval fantasy (plate mail, etc.) was not developed by the Greeks, who went about more lightly armored. This is great news for the non-martials, but will impact martials quite a lot (particularly Fighters). It will be even more noticeable if you set this in a Bronze-Age era. You might need to compensate by giving some alternative type of armor bonus (such as has been used in systems like d20 modern and the like).
D20 Argonauts has extensive guidelines for bronze age armor and arms. It's great five buck investment for running a campaign like this.

That's what I linked upthread, and it's free.


I would allow just about any class.

Obviously some are a big stretch, such as gunslinger or ninja. Gunslinger is out because I assume there are no firearms in the world. However, I would allow a ninja if it is roleplayed appropriately. As long as immersion in the world is not disrupted, just allow it.

Oh, I think that the oracle is derived in part from greek history/mythology, so I hope someone plays an oracle. Some of the iconic heroes of the greek mythos cannot be represented simply by a single class, so tell those who seek that to multiclass. As the GM it will be your responsibility to drop demi-god worthy magic items here and there.

Look into the mythic rules too.


Here you go:

http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html

This was done as if D&D were based on classical myths, as opposed to.. pseudo Northern European stuff.

If memory serves it was done with a kind of BECMI ruleset.

These sourcebooks are really, really good, and you can't beat the price (free).

"As most of you probably remember, the year 1972 saw the release of MAZES & MINOTAURS, the first ever-published fantasy roleplaying game, opening a new era of heroic adventure and mythic odysseys…

Fifteen years later, in 1987, Legendary Games Studio published a fully revised, streamlined and expanded version of M&M (which became known as Revised Mazes & Minotaurs or RM&M for short) in the form of three core books (the Players Manual, the Maze Masters Guide and the massive Creature Compendium) and a fourth optional book (the M&M Companion), all with full-color covers and quality B&W interior art.

In 2007, to celebrate the 20th anniversary of this mythic event, the resurrected Legendary Games Studio is happy to bring you Revised Mazes & Minotaurs in PDF format (yes, the whole four books !)… FOR FREE.

All you have to do is to right-click and select "save as" on the images or on the download links below. "


Thanks you have all been very helpful

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you're going for that Greek classical feel, Magic is a very rare thing. Greek Heroes are either Strong He-Man types, (Hercules, Atalanta) Smart and Clever He-Man types, (Theseus) or Strong, Smart, and Clever He-Man types, (Odysseus)

Magic plays very very litle role, outside of innate divine gifts, magical gifts or curses from the Gods. There are only two spellcasters in the entire Mythos, Circe and Medea. And the Hellenic Sorceress class in Argonauts depicts them to a Tee. Too compensate for healing issues, Argonauts has rccovery rules and expanded use of the Heal skill which is made a class skill for all characters.


sunbeam wrote:

Here you go:

LINK

This was done as if D&D were based on classical myths, as opposed to.. pseudo Northern European stuff...

LINKIFICATION COMPLETE.

Scarab Sages

Don't overlook Green Ronin's Trojan War, and Sword & Sorcery's Relics & Rituals: Olympus 3.5 sourcebooks!


The Guide Ranger or Guide-Skirmisher Ranger is a great base for the classical hero. Being limited to medium armor is an organic feature for a Ranger, and you can go TWF with weapon and shield using the TWF Ranger style (which IMO is better than the weapon and shield style by far, even if you're using a shield). Ranger's Focus and at higher levels Inspired Moment make you a god of melee a couple times a day (for when it's time to battle the big monster); your magic is minimal and nature-based, or with skirmisher it's replaced with really, really nice battle tricks that fit the cunning/strong/blessed/all-of-the-above theme really well. Plus, you get to aid your allies strategically, which is also fitting.

A while ago I made a "Classical Arcadian Hero" who used Guide-Skirmisher/ Master of Many Style Monk 1, using two weapon style with falcata and unarmed strikes while carrying a heavy shield, and then adding Dragon Style and Snake Style/Ferocity.

Dark Archive

Nit sure hiw.much transparancy their is between PF domains and D&D 5E domains but the players handbook for 5E has a Greek mythology pantheon with some game stats, think it was eachs gods favored weapon, portfolio and domains. They have the same info for Nordic mythology, and a few other mythologies.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Late to this but I was thinking about this for awhile.

These are classes I would use, were it my campaign:

Barbarian (e.g., Herakles)
Bard (e.g., Orpheus)
Brawler (e.g., Polydeukes the boxer; generally I think the brawler class would be best used to make a pankriatist, far more over the monk)
Druid (e.g., Proteus)
Cavalier (e.g., Kastor the horse-tamer)
Fighter (e.g., most of the cast of the Iliad)
Oracle (e.g., Oracle of Delphi)
Ranger (e.g., Orion, with his animal companion Sirius)
Rogue (e.g., Perseus -- he uses sleight of hand to steal the Gray Sisters' eye and stealth to kill Medusa)
Slayer (e.g., perhaps, Theseus)
Witch (e.g., Medea or Kirke)

Brawler and Slayer are from the Advanced Class guide.

Some caveats:
- Rangers should probably be skirmishers (non spellcasting archetype). You also have to consider favored enemies -- some are going to be waaaaaay more useful in a typical Greek mythology based world than others; for example, there's lots of fey and magical beasts, not so many undead or oozes.)

- For Oracles, you might need to make one or two custom mysteries (I always felt like mysteries were lacking a bit anyway) so all the gods have a few mysteries that might be connected to them. For example, a "Passion" mystery with emotion themed powers for gods like Aphrodite (goddess of love) and Dionysus (god of madness and revelry). A "Community" or "Family" one might be suitable too (or the Ancestor one tweaked), for gods like Hestia (goddess of the home) and Hera (goddess of marriage and motherhood).

I don't think the other classes suit the flavor or feel of a Greek mythological world and the kind of magic/supernatural events seen. (Yes, wizards are inspired by the Order of Hermes but they're not exactly from the age of mythology).

You also might consider races -- human only could be obvious, but otherwise you might want to use the race builder in the ARG to make playable (at a normal Player Character level) nymphs, half-gods, etc. Unfortunately the core races are very distinctly Norse-derived, if not Tolkien derived.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to go against the grain and suggest that Oracles should should not be using the Oracle class. Greek oracles don't cast spells, they simply breathe mildly toxic volcanic vapors, and make foreshadowing pronouncements.

A greek campaign really should not be one where the heroes do any spellcasting.


LazarX wrote:


A greek campaign really should not be one where the heroes do any spellcasting.

Orpheus says "hello."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
RJGrady wrote:

The archetypal wizard actually owes a lot of it's trappings to the mystery cults of the Greeks.

What you're thinking of is mostly post-classical with a mixture of Egyptian and Roman influences. Magic is definitely not part of the classic hero trope, which is why it's only seen in two characters in the entire mythos, both of whom are essentially NPC encounters.

What IS much more common are folks who stand aside, and give advice at the right moments, prophets, talking owls, oracles who sit on top of volcanic vents. None of them ever cast spells or exhibit any qualities other than uncanny (or divine in the case of gods like Athena tagging along in disguise) insight.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Orfamay Quest wrote:
LazarX wrote:


A greek campaign really should not be one where the heroes do any spellcasting.
Orpheus says "hello."

And outside of bardic performances, he does what again???

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I would personally allow spellcasting in a PF sword and sandals game simply because the mechanics/adventure designs generally presume some availability of magical healing. I've played PF-based systems without magical healing and it's just boring. For me it's a matter of "what I would use without having to change the system too much." (If I wanted to be truly "realistic" I'd probably not use Pathfinder--but the question at hand is "what would you use in Greek mythology themed Pathfinder game?")

You can always fluff some of the spellcasting as, if divine gifts granted by deities (which certainly abounded), mastery of certain mysteries or ancient "science." Spell choice matters too and may have to be paid attention to.

Come to think of it, I was just reviewing the story of Medea and she is described as using unguents and herbs for her "magic" so perhaps she would be best depicted as an alchemist. I would allow vivisectionist only since alchemist bombs would not be an appropriately flavored mechanic. I think spells are bendy enough to refluff, but not explosives. :)

But I've talked about what works for me. If YOU wouldn't allow spellcasting, LazarX, what classes WOULD you use, and how would you handle certain supernatural abilities, events, and healing?

Grand Lodge

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DeathQuaker wrote:

I would personally allow spellcasting in a PF sword and sandals game simply because the mechanics/adventure designs generally presume some availability of magical healing. I've played PF-based systems without magical healing and it's just boring. For me it's a matter of "what I would use without having to change the system too much." (If I wanted to be truly "realistic" I'd probably not use Pathfinder--but the question at hand is "what would you use in Greek mythology themed Pathfinder game?")

You can always fluff some of the spellcasting as, if divine gifts granted by deities (which certainly abounded), mastery of certain mysteries or ancient "science." Spell choice matters too and may have to be paid attention to.

Come to think of it, I was just reviewing the story of Medea and she is described as using unguents and herbs for her "magic" so perhaps she would be best depicted as an alchemist. I would allow vivisectionist only since alchemist bombs would not be an appropriately flavored mechanic. I think spells are bendy enough to refluff, but not explosives. :)

But I've talked about what works for me. If YOU wouldn't allow spellcasting, LazarX, what classes WOULD you use, and how would you handle certain supernatural abilities, events, and healing?

There's a reason I hype SKR's Argonaut book for this. It addresses all those concerns. If you're looking to do a Greek heroes type campaign, you're barking up the wrong tree in running Greece like Golarion. Greek campaigns should be the ultimate martial campaign, where the stars are Fighters, fighter/rogues, not spellcasters.

Supernatural events are either monster encounters or signs from the Gods. Since most Greek classical heroes are scions of the Gods, it's not that unusual for the Gods to descend from Mt. Olympus and meet them personally, although it's usually in disguise and they never reveal themselves. Athena in particular ususally shows up in the guises of trusted male prophets known to the heroes personally.

The classical stories are full of encounters with magical animals, such as bulls that deliver children from danger, and are usually sacrificed to the Gods, with wondrous items made from their fleeces or hides. Hercules wrestles the Nemean tiger to death and wears it's invulnerable skin. Centaurs snatch maidens, and heroes are set to recover them.

Something worth noting. The Greek cultures were in the main intensely misogynistic societies, who literally kept their women in dark rooms, the hyperemphasis on physical manliness, the depiction of female gods and mortals pretty much reflects this. Which is why strong women such as the Amazons and the women of Lemnos, and the two spellcasters I mentioned are essentially close to monsters in the eyes of Greek heroes because they are far outside the norm. So clear it up with your players first.


It wouldn't be that hard to make a wizard be something like a Presocratic philosopher. That might actually be kind of fun. Particularly some sort of elementalist.

Heraclitus could be an awesome transmuter :-)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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So what you're saying is you would use the Argonauts book. Got it, LazarX, thanks!

Everyone has their own preferences and vision for what they want to see happen in a given game. Even parameters like "inspired by Greek mythology" can be pretty damn broad; the OP didn't say, "I need this to be exactly as Homer wrote it." After all, you could say the Xenaverse is definitely "inspired by Greek mythology" given the presence of Olympian gods, the Three Fates, the base setting in Greece, etc. but that particularly nutballs universe also contains several different forms of magic, Judeo-Christian angels and demons, what are effectively qin-gong monks, reincarnation, and the very important fish fighting style (one handed, two handed, two-fish, with reach, and thrown).

Generally, there's no right or wrong way to run a fantasy campaign. I can say how I would do it, but that doesn't make another person's take any less valid---and more to the point, potentially any less entertaining.


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I've made an exhaustive list of what monsters from the Bestiaries belong in what mythologies or literary mythos. Here's what I've got for the Greco-Roman world:

Mediterranean - The Greco-Roman region
Bestiary 1
Centaur, chimera, cyclops, dryad, cloud giant, storm giant, gorgon (khalkotauri), griffon, harpy, hydra, lamia, medusa, minotaur, nymph, pegasus, satyr, sphinx (gynosphinx);

Bestiary 2
amphisbaena, catoblepas, charybdis, daemons, hippocampus, nereid, oread, scylla, siren, titans, triton, undine

Bestiary 3
cerberi, great cyclops, unfettered eidolon, faun, stimphalidies, hekatonkheires

Bestiary 4
argus (argus panoptes), demon lord, dossenus, drakainia, graeae, hamadryad, karkinoi, lampad, maenad, oceanid, vanth psychopomp, udaeus (spartoi), xanthos

Universal (All Climates)

CRB:
Human;

Bestiary 1
Aasimar, Giant Ant, Dire Bat, Bat Swarm, Dire Bear, boar, dire boar, centipede, giant centipede, riding dog, dog, true dragon, eagle, giant eagle, elementals, giants, half-celestial, half-dragon, half-fiend, hell hound, horse, pony, invisible stalker, lycanthrope, phoenix, dire rat, rat swarm, shadow, greater shadow, constrictor snake, venomous snake, giant spider, spider swarm, tiefling, vampire, giant wasp, wasp swarm, will-o'-wisp;

Bestiary 2
attic whisperer, giant bee, giant queen bee, goliath stag beetle, slicer beetle, giant whiptail centipede, titan centipede, giant cockroach, cockroach swarm, primal dragon, giant dragonfly, fetchling, giant fly, giant maggot, hellcat, ram, petitioner, poltergeist, ravener (dracolich), giant black widow spider, giant tarantula, giant tick, tick swarm;

Bestiary 3
animal lord, broken soul creature, bogeyman, globster, hellwasp swarm, giant owl, snake swarm, venemous snake swarm, giant crab spider, ogre spider, vulture, giant vulture;

Bestiary 4
divine guardian, outer dragons, empyreal lord, giant flea, mammoth flea, guardian dragon, stag, living topiary, giant locust, locust swarm, shadow creature, goliath spider, scarlet spider, immense tortoise, dire weasel, giant weasel, wyvaran,

Universal (Aquatic)

Bestiary 1
giant crab, crab swarm, dolphin, orca, electric eel, giant moray eel, giant leech, leech swarm, merfolk, octopus, giant octopus, sea serpent, shark, dire shark, squid, giant squid

Bestiary 2
giant jellyfish, jellyfish swarm, manta ray, stingray, snapping turtle, giant snapping turtle, whale, great white whale;

Bestiary 3
cecaelia, shark-eating crab, shipwrecker crab, death's head jellyfish, sapphire jellyfish, giant sea anemone, deep sea serpent, giant seahorse, killer seahorse, bull shark, great white shark, walrus, emperor walrus, giant water strider, nymph water strider,

---

It should be noted that the Werewolf originates from Greco-Roman mythology, specifically King Lycan, so even though it's generally viewed as a European monster, it fits fine in a Greek-styled campaign.


The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.
Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joynt Jezebel wrote:

The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.

Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.

It should be noted that the boys who participated, or were made to participate in man-boy love affiars were essentially ruined for life as far as their participation in society goes.

The classical greeks did not stone men for homosexual relations, but saw them as one man yielding his power to another. This would change considerably after the Classical period.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

chbgraphic arts -- I would suggest adding clockwork creatures to your list (Bestiary 4 I think?); as the term "automaton" goes back to Greek mythology, and the general theory is they reflect a clockwork construction (although I guess you could interpret them as golems instead, but they were crafted by engineers, smiths, and inventors, e.g., Hephaestus, Daedalus). While dated later than the "mythological" age, one of the oldest known clockwork items is Greek.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:

So what you're saying is you would use the Argonauts book. Got it, LazarX, thanks!

Everyone has their own preferences and vision for what they want to see happen in a given game. Even parameters like "inspired by Greek mythology" can be pretty damn broad; the OP didn't say, "I need this to be exactly as Homer wrote it." After all, you could say the Xenaverse is definitely "inspired by Greek mythology" given the presence of Olympian gods, the Three Fates, the base setting in Greece, etc. but that particularly nutballs universe also contains several different forms of magic, Judeo-Christian angels and demons, what are effectively qin-gong monks, reincarnation, and the very important fish fighting style (one handed, two handed, two-fish, with reach, and thrown).

Generally, there's no right or wrong way to run a fantasy campaign. I can say how I would do it, but that doesn't make another person's take any less valid---and more to the point, potentially any less entertaining.

The OP asked for campaign suggestions that would echo the feel of the Homeric Mythos. I gave him answers for that question, not for running Forgotten Realms in the Agean, nor Xena D20.

In every setting every put forward for D+D or Pathfinder, spellcasters dominate, they are the main stars of the show, the central figures of the mythology. I assumed the OP was looking for a change of pace in choosing the Homeric setting. I may well have been wrong.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.

Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.

Eh, it was a little more complex than that, but, yeah - it was fairly different than today.

There was no real concept of "homosexuality" vs. "heterosexuality"; rather, things weren't cut-and-dry at all, and from what archaeologists have gathered, bisexuality was so commonplace that it wasn't even given a title at all - it was just assumed that men and women had sexual partners of both genders throughout their lives, especially men (vs the modern view where women are the more sexually liberated).

The only real taboos for the Greeks were maternal/paternal incest and bestiality.

I feel like I shouldn't even have to mention necrophilia, but for those dingbats who would ask - yes, okay, necrophilia was also taboo.

So three things were off limits: parents, animals, and dead things.


Joynt Jezebel wrote:

The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.

Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.

Classical Athens is not at all the same where these matters are concerned as Mycenaean Greece. And there's nothing in the Iliad to suggest that Achilles and Patroklos had a sexual relationship; much later, Classical Greeks saw that relationship through the lens of their own cultural assumptions, and couldn't imagine Achilles freaking out so much about Patroklos' death if they weren't lovers, but that tells us more about the Classical Greeks than it does about Homeric sexuality.

And for the record, I'm not ideologically troubled if Achilles and Patroklos were lovers; I'm just saying the text doesn't support the claim.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:
chbgraphic arts -- I would suggest adding clockwork creatures to your list (Bestiary 4 I think?); as the term "automaton" goes back to Greek mythology, and the general theory is they reflect a clockwork construction (although I guess you could interpret them as golems instead, but they were crafted by engineers, smiths, and inventors, e.g., Hephaestus, Daedalus). While dated later than the "mythological" age, one of the oldest known clockwork items is Greek.

The Greeks had a very courious view about such things. Automatons and moving statues (not clockwork though, just animate, and sometimes like Talos with a single organic component that would be their Achilles heel) were a part of the mythology, but Hero's steam engine was seen as nothing more than a toy, since such work would be done more cheaply with slaves.

Archimedes, who was the first Greek inventor known for practical inventions, comes from a later period.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
chbgraphic arts -- I would suggest adding clockwork creatures to your list (Bestiary 4 I think?); as the term "automaton" goes back to Greek mythology, and the general theory is they reflect a clockwork construction (although I guess you could interpret them as golems instead, but they were crafted by engineers, smiths, and inventors, e.g., Hephaestus, Daedalus). While dated later than the "mythological" age, one of the oldest known clockwork items is Greek.

The Greeks had a very courious view about such things. Automatons and moving statues (not clockwork though, just animate, and sometimes like Talos with a single organic component that would be their Achilles heel) were a part of the mythology, but Hero's steam engine was seen as nothing more than a toy, since such work would be done more cheaply with slaves.

Archimedes, who was the first Greek inventor known for practical inventions, comes from a later period.

If you're thinking of the clockwork owl in "Wrath of the Titans", that was a movie invention. In the original tales, the owl was Athena. Also in those tales Perseus never rode Pegasus but borrowed Mercury's sandals to fly. Much of what we read from Bullfinch and other sources is a matter of rewrites between the Classical and Midieval period.


LazarX wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:

The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.

Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.

It should be noted that the boys who participated, or were made to participate in man-boy love affiars were essentially ruined for life as far as their participation in society goes.

The classical greeks did not stone men for homosexual relations, but saw them as one man yielding his power to another. This would change considerably after the Classical period.

[Warning: I teach a university course on this material, so I could get really pedantic. I'm going to try to control myself.]

It's a bit more complicated than this, though you're right that the Greek homoerotic relationship was typically not between equals; there'd be an older male (the "erastes", or lover) who was expected to be sexually attracted to the younger male (the "eromenos", or beloved), who was expected *not* to be sexually attracted to the erastes. Also, the Classical Athenians made several distinctions that shaped how they reacted to various relationships. Age was important; younger boys were not appropriate targets for "legitimate" eros, though exactly what constitutes "too young" is a bit controversial. James Davidson, one of the foremost scholars on the topic, asserts that to be legitimate targets, young men needed to be about what we would consider 18. (The ancients didn't track birthdays like we do; it's complicated :-p)

Also, the way in which the relationship was conducted mattered a lot; was it exclusive? Was it long-term? Was it discrete? It's true that the eromenos (the younger man) could lose his citizenship rights if things went badly, but it appears that for that to happen it had to be established that the young man had acted like a prostitute, for instance by overtly trading his affections to a series of different men for a price. It also would count against him if he appeared to positively want sexual activity with his lovers for the sake of the sex itself. (A useful analog is the ideal Victorian woman who was supposed to lie there and allow unspeakable things to be done to her for the sake of God and England.)

So, if the erastes and the eromenos were discrete about their relationship (which didn't, btw, require them to hide the fact of the relationship), had an exclusive relationship over a long term, and kept up the appropriate appearances concerning who was desiring what, the relationship might not only not do any harm to the standing of either party, it could actually make them objects of public approval.

Like I said, it's complicated.


Cleanthes wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:

The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.

Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.

It should be noted that the boys who participated, or were made to participate in man-boy love affiars were essentially ruined for life as far as their participation in society goes.

The classical greeks did not stone men for homosexual relations, but saw them as one man yielding his power to another. This would change considerably after the Classical period.

[Warning: I teach a university course on this material, so I could get really pedantic. I'm going to try to control myself.]

It's a bit more complicated than this, though you're right that the Greek homoerotic relationship was typically not between equals; there'd be an older male (the "erastes", or lover) who was expected to be sexually attracted to the younger male (the "eromenos", or beloved), who was expected *not* to be sexually attracted to the erastes. Also, the Classical Athenians made several distinctions that shaped how they reacted to various relationships. Age was important; younger boys were not appropriate targets for "legitimate" eros, though exactly what constitutes "too young" is a bit controversial. James Davidson, one of the foremost scholars on the topic, asserts that to be legitimate targets, young men needed to be about what we would consider 18. (The ancients didn't track birthdays like we do; it's complicated :-p)

Also, the way in which the relationship was conducted mattered a lot; was it exclusive? Was it long-term? Was it discrete? It's true that the eromenos (the younger man) could lose his citizenship rights if things went badly, but it appears that for that to happen it had to be established that the young man had acted like a prostitute, for instance by overtly trading his affections to a series of different men for a price. It also would count against him if he appeared to positively want sexual activity with his lovers for the sake of the sex itself. (A useful analog is the ideal Victorian woman who was supposed to lie there and allow unspeakable things to be done to her for the sake of God and England.)

So, if the erastes and the eromenos were discrete about their relationship (which didn't, btw, require them to hide the fact of the relationship), had an exclusive relationship over a long term, and kept up the appropriate appearances concerning who was desiring what, the relationship might not only not do any harm to the standing of either party, it could actually make them objects of public approval.

Like I said, it's complicated.

Indeed, Greeks were and are complicated. Many of the cited examples of the eromenos being 'shunned' or cast out of proper society were an effort to attack, damage or otherwise harm the erastes. In general, erastes were older men of high standing, and nothing temps the typical Greek more then the option to tear someone down off their pedastal. A good way to strike a blow without the kind of open declaration that direct slander or attacks would entail, is to go after their younger lovers.

Social combat if you will has always been a principle art of the Helenic peoples.


As for the difficulties of roleplaying in such a world, I dont particualrly see why it would be an issue. You can include as much or as little of it as you want in your campaign. You can go the 300(film) route and only mention it in cheap but unexplained jokes, or you could dive into the depths of the complexity of such relationships or anywhere in between. Its no different then the presense and acting on sexual relationships of various types in any campaign. Do what works for your group. Its not like EVERY person in classical Greece was involved in such a relationship. Players need to participate in it if they wish to be. Its hardly different then a campaign (such as say Golarion) where LBGT characters exist.

Edit:

To the OP, are you familiar with the Godling classes from the 3rd party publisher Rogue Genius games? They are meant to help portray characters descended from the gods, and are great for that style of game. And between the 4 of them you can actually have a complete party using only those classes. They also happen to be exceptionally flexible, so using them, is only barely limiting options. It would be my personal choice to use them in part or in whole if I was running a Greek Myth style game.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

LazarX wrote:
LazarX wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
chbgraphic arts -- I would suggest adding clockwork creatures to your list (Bestiary 4 I think?); as the term "automaton" goes back to Greek mythology, and the general theory is they reflect a clockwork construction (although I guess you could interpret them as golems instead, but they were crafted by engineers, smiths, and inventors, e.g., Hephaestus, Daedalus). While dated later than the "mythological" age, one of the oldest known clockwork items is Greek.

The Greeks had a very courious view about such things. Automatons and moving statues (not clockwork though, just animate, and sometimes like Talos with a single organic component that would be their Achilles heel) were a part of the mythology, but Hero's steam engine was seen as nothing more than a toy, since such work would be done more cheaply with slaves.

Archimedes, who was the first Greek inventor known for practical inventions, comes from a later period.

If you're thinking of the clockwork owl in "Wrath of the Titans", that was a movie invention. In the original tales, the owl was Athena. Also in those tales Perseus never rode Pegasus but borrowed Mercury's sandals to fly. Much of what we read from Bullfinch and other sources is a matter of rewrites between the Classical and Midieval period.

The first link I provided clearly illustrates and provides sources for what I was talking about: Hephaestus's automatons and Daedalus's inventions.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cleanthes wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:

The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.

Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.

It should be noted that the boys who participated, or were made to participate in man-boy love affiars were essentially ruined for life as far as their participation in society goes.

The classical greeks did not stone men for homosexual relations, but saw them as one man yielding his power to another. This would change considerably after the Classical period.

[Warning: I teach a university course on this material, so I could get really pedantic. I'm going to try to control myself.]

It's a bit more complicated than this, though you're right that the Greek homoerotic relationship was typically not between equals; there'd be an older male (the "erastes", or lover) who was expected to be sexually attracted to the younger male (the "eromenos", or beloved), who was expected *not* to be sexually attracted to the erastes. Also, the Classical Athenians made several distinctions that shaped how they reacted to various relationships. Age was important; younger boys were not appropriate targets for "legitimate" eros, though exactly what constitutes "too young" is a bit controversial. James Davidson, one of the foremost scholars on the topic, asserts that to be legitimate targets, young men needed to be about what we would consider 18. (The ancients didn't track birthdays like we do; it's complicated :-p)

They'd have to be younger. If I recall correctly, they stop being eligible targets once the beard starts growing in. Beards are about as much an item to a Greek hero as they were to a proper dwarf.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joynt Jezebel wrote:

The real challenge will be getting your average group of Pathfinder players to role play ancient Greek sexual mores, where most the accepted forms of sex were between man and wife and mature man and adolescent boy.

Like Socrates and Alcibiades or Achilleus and Patroclus. I don't like your chances.

In the epic of Troy, Achillies gets into a funk over a Trojan priestess that was given to Ajax as a spoil of war. He refuses to get into the fight again until his eromeno, Patroclus gets killed wearing his armor into battle.

As Hector would find out the hard way, he took the loss rather personally.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you want to get your players properly psyched for this, you gotta give them a night of Ray Harryhausen classics. And be amazed at just how good you can get with stop-motion animation.

Jason and the Argonauts.

Wrath of the Titans. (the original version)


I think you mean Clash of the Titans?

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