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I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
1. You get TONS of summon monsters per day even at level 1. An average summoner with 16 Charisma can summon monster 6 times a day at level 1 where most spellcasters don't have that many spells at level 1. Summon monster is a better spell that a 1d4/1d6 bolt from a wizard school or sorcerer bloodline. This does not include that they can also spend their normal spell slots to summon as well.
2. It makes the Conjurer wizard/sorcerer totally underpowered builds. A summoner's summoned monsters last MINUTES instead of ROUNDS. Why bother even playing a summoner-style wizard/sorcerer if the Summoner can summon better than them?
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
4. Summoners slow down the game WAY too much. When you have tons of summoned monsters on the field being controlled, you have to include the actions of each summoned monster.
5. The Summoner's Eidolon has more combat potential than most fighters and druid animal companions. It also can't be permanently killed. A summoner can just summon it back later if it dies.
SO what's your opinion on the Summoner?
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Let your players wipe the floor with enemies a few times. After that, the word gets out and enemies plan their ambushes and defenses accordingly. There's no real problem here.
As for the Summoner/Wizard debate, my take on it is that Wizards' greatest asset is their flexibility when it comes to preparing the right spells they need for a given day. Summoners' greatest asset is their flexibility when it comes to summoning the right thing(s) for the right job. Both can coexist, and you could even have them both in the same party. Summoners are powerful in their own ways, but they do not get access to all of the most powerful Wizard spells.
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Any decent party is going to totally gimp a planned encounter against unprepared enemies. If those goblins had one fireball that summoner would have blown all his summons for nothing and would've been swinging his long-spear in vain while goblins ate him.
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I dislike how the eidolon is a better fighter than the fighter with higher saves and more skill points. The eidolon doesn't even need gear, just some buffs from the summoner. Take the fighter and give him an equal level adept cohort with full WBL, and you would still have a weaker combo than the eidolon + summoner.
A well built and well played wizards with a more RAW leaning GM will out-pace the summoner.
Anyone who is literate can make a really strong and powerful synthesist summoner that is well equiped to handle whatever reasonable challenge the GM throws their way. It requires basic reading comprehension to do that with a normal summoner (who if build right will be stronger than the synthesist).
The Master Summoner works more like wizard. Her limit is turn speed and enforced via meta, "GM: don't take forever!".
I just ban the summoner and would recommend any new-ish GM to do the same.
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I also ban the summoner.
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It's worse then the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer or Wizard.
If you think Summoner is unbalanced, it's because the optimization floor for the class is high, not because it's actually overpowered. Full casters... now those the truly powerful classes. Though in fairness, I would put Summoner next in line behind them.
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I think summoners are fine, but I do have issue with their spell list being robbed by other classes. I just houserule that when pulling spell list shenanigans you have to use the Wizard/Cleric/Druid level and only get to use the Bard or Summoner level if it doesn't exist higher level somewhere else. I also will tell someone taking much much longer turns than the others to do their homework, and if they don't they get uninvited to game.
I haven't run into problems in PFS because they ban Master Summoner and Synthesist and Multiweapon Fighting and I only run into small mounted Summoners who ride their eidolons.
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I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
1. You get TONS of summon monsters per day even at level 1. An average summoner with 16 Charisma can summon monster 6 times a day at level 1 where most spellcasters don't have that many spells at level 1. Summon monster is a better spell that a 1d4/1d6 bolt from a wizard school or sorcerer bloodline. This does not include that they can also spend their normal spell slots to summon as well.
2. It makes the Conjurer wizard/sorcerer totally underpowered builds. A summoner's summoned monsters last MINUTES instead of ROUNDS. Why bother even playing a summoner-style wizard/sorcerer if the Summoner can summon better than them?
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
4. Summoners slow down the game WAY too much. When you have tons of summoned monsters on the field being controlled, you have to include the actions of each summoned monster.
5. The Summoner's Eidolon has more combat potential than most fighters and druid animal companions. It also can't be permanently killed. A summoner can just summon it back later if it dies.
SO what's your opinion on the Summoner?
1. Those level 1 bloodline are weak are not intended to be on part with summoning
2. The summoner is based on summoning. He should be a better summoner, but he is not on par with a wizard or sorcerer that that is really optimized.
3. Full casters can do the same thing with regard to gimping encounters. This is not theorycraft. I have seen it and been part of it at times. :)
4. As a GM and player I have no problems getting the creatures through their actions quickly. To me this is a player issue. I really dont see how tigers summoner from a druid taking longer to handle than ones summoned by a summoner.
5. They are supposed to be better than the animal companion, and yes they are better than some fighters, but that is also a fighter issue.
I understand you don't like the class. I just don't agree with your reasons.
The bigger they get the more trouble they have moving around inside of buildings. As long as they are large or smaller it keeps their damage down. You can also use DR to drop the damage.
I don't mind the base summoner. The master summoner requires more work on the part of the GM because of all the extra minions it brings, so I would not allow it unless I had the free time to account for it.
PS: I do think they are to easy to optimize, and in some campaigns they can cause a lot of trouble, so I am not saying you should not ban them.
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I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
You are only aloud to have one summon out at a time with their ability.
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You are only aloud to have one summon out at a time with their ability.I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
The key words there are Master Summoner.
The only thing that is annoying about Summoners is
A) How insanely strong the Eidolon is.
B) They make crafting kinda wacky with their lower spell levels.
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If you don't like the summons, why don't you just have the player use one of the archetypes that replaces summon monster rather than just banning the entire class? Spirit Summoner for example.
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I think summoners are fine, but I do have issue with their spell list being robbed by other classes.It's the other way around, mate.
It is the robbing back via being a Samsaran or Pathfinder Delver or however that is the worse problem, but I do understand your point.
Haste at 4th because of Summoner is bad, Haste at 3rd because of Samsaran Wizard/Witch is worse.
You are only aloud to have one summon out at a time with their ability.I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
Not true for the Master Summoner archetype.
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It's worse then the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer or Wizard.
If you think Summoner is unbalanced, it's because the optimization floor for the class is high, not because it's actually overpowered. Full casters... now those the truly powerful classes. Though in fairness, I would put Summoner next in line behind them.
While not as powerful, I would say that the Summoner disrupts party dynamics and is in that way more imbalanced than the Sorcerer or the Wizard. A good God Wizard, while powerful, is still a member of the team; his presence elevates everyone else he plays with, assuming you're using martials that also contribute to the party like a Paladin or Barbarian.
The Summoner, Druid, and Cleric overlap with martials and each can effectively make up a party of one, and the Summoner is the worst of these with both the eidolon and standard action summons. Party dynamics are thrown out the window when the Summoner is supplying everything required for victory on his turn.
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Ah yes, an oldie but goodie
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I think everyone agrees that the Master Summoner is a problem. If not for power, then for ability to grind combat to a halt.
But as far as the base summoner, its power is mostly overblown. I do find it questionable that they get buff spells early. But the early conjuration spells make sense for a class named Summoner. The eidolon isn't really that great and is overshadowed by summon monster, which can be done just as well by multiple classes.
But really, any complaint about Master Summoner should be laid on that archetype and not the class as a whole.
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I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
I, Evil Lincoln, do allow the summoner class. Though I respect your authority to ban things you do not like, please consider the following counterpoints, as I believe you have some incorrect information informing your decision.
1. You get TONS of summon monsters per day even at level 1. An average summoner with 16 Charisma can summon monster 6 times a day at level 1 where most spellcasters don't have that many spells at level 1. Summon monster is a better spell that a 1d4/1d6 bolt from a wizard school or sorcerer bloodline. This does not include that they can also spend their normal spell slots to summon as well.
You do indeed get the summon monster power at level one, but since you can only have one summon active from this power at a time, that seriously mitigates the effectiveness of this power compared to the eidolon, or say, a wizard who can theoretically spam summons.
2. It makes the Conjurer wizard/sorcerer totally underpowered builds. A summoner's summoned monsters last MINUTES instead of ROUNDS. Why bother even playing a summoner-style wizard/sorcerer if the Summoner can summon better than them?
Because nine levels of spells on a fast progression is better than fast long summons.
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
Actually, this isn't really all that great. If I understand correctly, the summoner can only have ONE summon SLA active at a time, and can't have their eidolon summoned for this.
Useful? Yes, situationally. Game breaking? I don't believe so.
4. Summoners slow down the game WAY too much. When you have tons of summoned monsters on the field being controlled, you have to include the actions of each summoned monster.
This is all true for any class capable of casting summon. Druids especially.
5. The Summoner's Eidolon has more combat potential than most fighters and druid animal companions. It also can't be permanently killed. A summoner can just summon it back later if it dies.
Poppycock. Yes, low-level summoners are very front-loaded because the HD progressions have not diverged yet. But diverge they do! By the middle levels, the difference between an eidolon and, well, ANY full base attack class is quite evident. All those scary pounce attacks will start whiffing where the simple fighter hits every time.
Yes, Pounce is ridiculously underpriced, and available way too early. But it's all downhill from there. By 5th level, you can expect any martial class to out perform the eidolon, and they don't have to give up defenses to do so. Which brings me to my next point:
They can't be killed, but their defenses are crap. This is why everyone seems to make super-glass-cannon eidolons with a jillion attacks. Attacks are subsidized by the evolution point assignments. However, it is really, really hard to make an eidolon with decent defenses, and shared item slots basically guarantee it's either the summoner or the eidolon who's vulnerable.
They're also hyper vulnerable to a handful of common spells, not to mention Ability Damage is a total pain in the eidolon.
SO what's your opinion on the Summoner?
I think the summoner is a great concept. It has some pricing issues (pounce and extra attacks are all dirt cheap, while ANYTHING interesting is impossibly expensive).
But I think banning it outright is an overreaction, personally. It's no more readily abused than a druid is, and most of the problems with the class stem from two issues:
1) it looks super scary at first level, so people never let it play long enough to fall behind.
2) people misread or omit rules to their benefit.
summoners aren't really as bad as people make them out to be, their spell list is very limited, even if it does get a few extremely worthwhile spells for the level they are acquired at a rate comparable to wizards, they do mess with the prices of consumables, and the only time the levels thing is really an issue is if you use one specific race with 2 unsynergistic racial attribute bonuses, an extremely crippling and build slaughtering racial attribute penalty and has little else besides the ability to poach spells from the lists of other classes. which generally allows little more than the equivalent to providing the wizard a few cleric spells to bring back the downed cleric in a pinch. the Samsaran Wizard poaching the summoner list to get discounts is most likely doing it to get access to haste at 3rd level or gate at 11th level. when those spells already have other limitations. the poached cheaper slots via racial ability means you are likely eating up the costs at a lower level or rarely using them.
I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
1. Houserule that 6xL minutes into 6 minutes per day, spent in 1 minute intervals. See rage & bardic performance.
2. See 1, it puts it on par with many buff spells.3. EDIT as others have said.
4. Agreed. So do bad mathematicians, many new players, poor attention spans, and spotlight hogs. Each can be sped up with the practice.
5. Agreed. I added stunning or dazed to the summoner when an eido goes down. The eido can't come back until the summoner has had a full night's rest. Usually once a day. (Also no pounce at early levels).
But outright ban? Nah... What's next, no leadership? no one-handed broad swords? no trolls? no half-dragons? no half-dragon trolls? Who wants to play in that game? [/sarcasm] Seriously though if a player wants to play something, I work to balance the concept with the other players & encounters.
This
Poppycock. Yes, low-level summoners are very front-loaded because the HD progressions have not diverged yet. But diverge they do! By the middle levels, the difference between an eidolon and, well, ANY full base attack class is quite evident. All those scary pounce attacks will start whiffing where the simple fighter hits every time.
Yes, Pounce is ridiculously underpriced, and available way too early. But it's all downhill from there. By 5th level, you can expect any martial class to out perform the eidolon, and they don't have to give up defenses to do so. Which brings me to my next point:
They can't be killed, but their defenses are crap. This is why everyone seems to make super-glass-cannon eidolons with a jillion attacks. Attacks are subsidized by the evolution point assignments. However, it is really, really hard to make an eidolon with decent defenses, and shared item slots basically guarantee it's either the summoner or the eidolon who's vulnerable.
They're also hyper vulnerable to a handful of common spells, not to mention Ability Damage is a total pain in the eidolon.
and ditto to whomever pointed out the quadruped eidolon's terrible will save.
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I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
1. You get TONS of summon monsters per day even at level 1. An average summoner with 16 Charisma can summon monster 6 times a day at level 1 where most spellcasters don't have that many spells at level 1. Summon monster is a better spell that a 1d4/1d6 bolt from a wizard school or sorcerer bloodline. This does not include that they can also spend their normal spell slots to summon as well.
2. It makes the Conjurer wizard/sorcerer totally underpowered builds. A summoner's summoned monsters last MINUTES instead of ROUNDS. Why bother even playing a summoner-style wizard/sorcerer if the Summoner can summon better than them?
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
4. Summoners slow down the game WAY too much. When you have tons of summoned monsters on the field being controlled, you have to include the actions of each summoned monster.
5. The Summoner's Eidolon has more combat potential than most fighters and druid animal companions. It also can't be permanently killed. A summoner can just summon it back later if it dies.
SO what's your opinion on the Summoner?
1. Summons have severe restrictions. Dispel magic is a save or die regardless of what you summon.
2. Not at all. If you imagine conjuration wizards to be only summoners, you have extremely narrow views of the class and specialization.
3. This is only true for the master summoner and not the other archetypes or base summoner. Banning a class for an archetype is extreme. Also, I'm willing to bet you let the player run the dogs when, in fact, they are GM controlled creatures. This is covered in the Issues of Control section. In short, you ran the encounter incorrectly.
4. Summoners are fine with a prepared player. If a player can't prepare to the point where their turn doesn't take forever compared to other turns, force them to make a new character. This is not a failing of the class.
5. Conditions on it persist and must be removed normally unless you use the purified calling spell. Also, you can't use your summon monster sla with the eidolon summoned except for the master summoner and then you can only have one summoned creature out at a time with your eidolon.
My opinion is the class is fine, you didn't read up on it to check your player when they did things that weren't correct, and let a poorly prepared player play one which can make any class look bad.
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I'd say a certain point has been made. Note that the obvious worst offenders, Synthesist and Master Summoner, are both banned in PFS play.
Why is synthesist banned actually? It's more balanced than a standard summoner.
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The following is a sample level 5 synthesist summoner. I've embedded mage armor, power attack, and arcane strike into the stat blocks since they should be in use the vast majority of the time. I made a biped, but I could've easily made a quadruped with pounce instead.
I'm finding it hard to believe that any martial of level 5 can compete. I suspect that it'd be about level 11 when the martial gets its 3rd attack that the gap closes with the synthesist.
I don't much care what other classes look like. Fact is, a ray of enfeeblement, couple scorching rays, touch of idiocy, ray of exhaustion, and stinking cloud among others are all still very strong against your character. In some cases, like stinking cloud, they basically shut you down.
Eh, it really depends on where one puts the bar for brokenness. As I don't generally ban wizards and the like for being too broken I see no reason to ban the summoner.
Hmm, are the advantages of the synthesist over a bog standard eidolon really worth the loss of a whole other character's worth of actions.The hell it is. It's Druidzilla reborn. Look up the term.I'd say a certain point has been made. Note that the obvious worst offenders, Synthesist and Master Summoner, are both banned in PFS play.Why is synthesist banned actually? It's more balanced than a standard summoner.
In a word? Yes. Tank the everloving crap out of your physical stats, because they no longer matter, bump up your casting stats, your Wis, and then, wear your Eidolon.
Suddenly, your physical stats are as good, or better than, the martials, with a better to-hit chance, gobs of abilities, and spells to back it up.
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Eh, this topic has cropped up before with the following tl;dr:
Summoner is a strong class that can simply optimized in a way that steals/dominates the spotlight. The class has its flaws, but people don't like having to laterally think to handle problems (which is why this thread keeps popping up). Eidolons are comically glass cannon and if they aren't the summonersummoner goes squish. The offending characters people mention are the result of two poorly balanced archetypes (which in my opinion need a sit and rework) or class misunderstanding (summoners and eidolons suffer from a wide array of misunderstandings, such as the grab evolution working differently from the grab monster rule). All-in-all, wizards still win out (even in games of rocket tag with eidolons). Most of the time I'd rather see and play a conjuration spec'd wizard in a party than a summoned but it's not because of the summons.
1. You get TONS of summon monsters per day even at level 1. An average summoner with 16 Charisma can summon monster 6 times a day at level 1 where most spellcasters don't have that many spells at level 1. Summon monster is a better spell that a 1d4/1d6 bolt from a wizard school or sorcerer bloodline. This does not include that they can also spend their normal spell slots to summon as well.
2. It makes the Conjurer wizard/sorcerer totally underpowered builds. A summoner's summoned monsters last MINUTES instead of ROUNDS. Why bother even playing a summoner-style wizard/sorcerer if the Summoner can summon better than them?
A summoner's spell list is extremely poor and they're the one spontaneous spell casting class that doesn't receive bonus spells known. Effectively, that spell-like ability IS their bonus spell known, and they can cast it often as a result.
Sorcerer/wizards have much better spell access and bloodline powers. Witches have hexes.
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
They cannot. You can only have one instance of summon monster, gate, or your eidolon active at a time unless you have the master summoner archetype. That's more of a problem with the master summoner than the class itself.
4. Summoners slow down the game WAY too much. When you have tons of summoned monsters on the field being controlled, you have to include the actions of each summoned monster.
This is true of any class that is able to summon creatures, or any monster for that matter. Demons can really bog the game down when they get a butt load of summon demons off. Its all about preplanning. A good summoner has the stat blocks of every creature he/she can summon ready and knows what he/she wants to do each round. If you don't have that level of preparation, then summoner isn't right for you.
5. The Summoner's Eidolon has more combat potential than most fighters and druid animal companions. It also can't be permanently killed. A summoner can just summon it back later if it dies.
Having a better companion than a druid or ranger isn't a big deal, as those classes are better at spell casting and/or martial combat than the summoner himself is.
The eidolon itself would be fine if it had better restrictions on which evolutions it can take. As designed, most players tend to min-max their eidolon then use it to design their favorite outsider creature. If the spiritualist's phantom is any indication of Pathfinder Unchained's rewrite, then this problem (which is really the only major problem that the summoner has besides its wonky spell list) will likely go away.
SO what's your opinion on the Summoner?
There is a class similar to the summoner but better balanced in occult adventures (I think it was the spiritualist). So if someone wants to play one use that one.
Apart from that: Banning it is the best thing you can do with the summoner because it has a build in "destroy party fun" that can't be disabled without rewriting the whole class.
If the spiritualist's phantom is any indication of Pathfinder Unchained's rewrite, then this problem (which is really the only major problem that the summoner has besides its wonky spell list) will likely go away.
I have to disagree. The summon SLA is much too strong as is. Too many uses, too short casting time, too long duration. If the summoner had either spells or the summoning SLA and stricter rules for the eidolon I might be ok with the class. But as is... no way.
Masser Summoner does not let you have multiple summons as Once via the ability. It only lets you have your Eidolon and 1 summon ability at a time.
I have never even written up my eidolon as a master summoner.
Because if it is not out, you CAN use the SLA multiple times with the effects stacking.
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I'd say a certain point has been made. Note that the obvious worst offenders, Synthesist and Master Summoner, are both banned in PFS play.Why is synthesist banned actually? It's more balanced than a standard summoner.
It is weaker. It is not more balanced.
Playing with a normal summoner is like playing with two characters. It does not really seem all that broken. Playing with a synthesist is like playing with one super character. It is vastly more apparent just how silly the summoner is when the two combine their forces.
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Since people seem confused as to the multiple summons of the Master Summoner in this thread:
Starting at 1st level, a master summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 5 + his Charisma modifier. The summoner can use this ability when his eidolon is summoned. Only one summon monster spell may be in effect while the eidolon is summoned. If the summoner’s eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day. This ability otherwise functions as the summoner’s normal summon monster I ability. Other than these restrictions, there is no limit to how many summon monster or gate spells the summoner can have active at one time.
Keep in mind this is only for the master summoner archetype.
Apart from that: Banning it is the best thing you can do with the summoner because it has a build in "destroy party fun" that can't be disabled without rewriting the whole class.
Conflation. I promise you you're wrong.
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SO what's your opinion on the Summoner?
It's a class that encourages you to make a background story about your main class feature. That I really love about the class and enables many interesting character concepts.
However, my biggest problem with summoners lies with the fact they're incredibly self-sufficient. They can fulfill the role of a fighter and a wizard at the same time without either of their weaknesses. They can send summons or their immortal eidolon to do risky stuff a monk or a rogue might be tasked to do. They have poor skills, but they can easily make up for it by granting skills to their eidolon or granting evolutions that negate the need for skills altogether. Summoners can fulfill every role at the same time without the risks and sacrifices other classes make. It's incredibly easy for a player to optimize a summoner as a one-man party. For a game all about working as a team, that's a bad thing.
In addition, the eidolon is not only stronger than familiars and animal companions, but also they have none of the risks of possessing a companion. They're immortal. They're hard to kill. And there's little consequence to the summoner if they die. The eidolon comes back the next day. In the meantime, the summoner can use their standard action summon monster SLA.
Overall, I feel the class is flavorful, but broken. When I mean "broken," I mean it's not well designed to the point of running contrary to the game's overall design goals. The summoner is a class unhealthy for a team game. Honestly, I feel like this serves as the core reason why many people don't like summoners, even if they do not explicitly articulate this. I wouldn't necessarily ban the summoner from my campaigns. I only GM for trusted friends that I can count on to make the game fun for everyone.