Rogue Ranged SAP Adept / Master


Advice


I am looking at rogue builds and noticed that the Sap Adept/Master feats do not specify that the attack needs to be a melee attack so I have been exploring builds that use ranged blunt non-lethal attacks and stacking the Sap tree damage with the bonus from Snipers Goggles

I did a brief search of the boards and didn't find anything, but if anyone has already explored this, please point me in the right direction. If not, here is what I got so far. Please feel free to add suggestions.

First we need to find a way to make a ranged attack that deals non-lethal blunt damage.

The easy/cheap way is to get a sling and some softstone bullets. This has the advantage of being cheap and available at low level. If this route is taken, eventually consider the Ammo Drop and Juggle Load feats

Another option would be a merciful bow with blunt arrows. More expensive, but you could get multiple attacks with it without additional feat investments. This would also allow you to use the various archer feats. Since smart rogues make better skill monkeys, a couple level ranger dip to get Focused Shot might be worth exploring.

If I am reading things correctly, a merciful Ioun Strike(Deep Magic) would also qualify. This would have the additional advantages of being a touch attack and possibly causing blindness, allowing you to sneak attack the next round... The Ion Strike could either come from a wand via UMD or a single level magus dip (anyone thinking of a way to do this with a Paizo spell would be welcome)

Of course we also need to consider how to consistently get sneak attack with a ranged weapon, some things to come to mind are Improved Invisibility, or some combination of Obscuring mist/Darkness with Snipers Eye/ShadowStrike and Darkvision/Cloud Gazer. As I said above, other suggestions would be welcome...


Couldn't a Slayer do this better?


A Slayer has fewer sneak attack die, for them the class feature is more of a circumstantial bonus damage than something to build around.

Hmm... Does Empower Metamagic increase sneak attack dice if you sneak attack with a spell? "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls." I believe sneak attack die would count as a bonus to the dice rolls, correct?

A Wizard 1/Rogue (Thug+Rake) X build could be amusing. With Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage you can fill up your 1st level slots with Merciful Empowered Rimed Rays of Frost and cast Merciful Empowered Ray of Frost as a cantrip. I doubt that this combination is anywhere near optimal, but on the other hand it could be potentially hilarious to say "I cast Ray of Frost" and toss a crap ton of dice. You probably want to do this with an Admixtured Acid Splash, actually, since there's no way you're bypassing SR.

But to be honest at this point you might as well just make a Kineticist.


Slayer loses a lot of potential damage if you want to focus on this combo, and you have to wait until level 9 to get Sap Master. At level 9 you're losing 4d6 sneak damage per attack compared to rogue, though the Slayer's +5 hit and +2 dmg could come out better depending on the AC of your enemies.

However I don't even know if this works with a ranged character? How are you going to get the enemies to be flat footed past the first round? Enforcer > Shatter Defense combo doesn't work because Enforcer requires a melee weapon, though I suppose if you or the party has another way of applying Shaken/Frighten/Panic you can roll with Shatter Defense.


Ninja Vanishing Trick, but that would only work with 1 arrow, maybe more if you took Manyshot, but I'm not sure about that. Better to take Deadly Aim.

With a few levels in Fighter with the Archer Archetype, you can Feint with your bow. You take a -5 on your bluff check, but the Mask of the Stony Demeanor is a very cheap magic item that gives you a +5.

There are the feats Dazzling Display Shatter Defenses. You can make every opponent within 30' Flatfooted and Shaken.


far as i know, there's a trait or feat that lets you deal nonlethal with any bludgeoning weapon--this should apply to blunt arrows without needing the merciful enchant iirc.


Arschnofiend, Unless you could somehow get the ray of frost to be "bludgeoning", you'll lose the the Sap Adept/Master effects

If I am reading the Skirmisher ability right, an 8th level rogue(scout) who moves 10' treats his target as flat footed for his first attack, sure, its just one attack, but each sneak attack die becomes 2d6+4 (or 2d6+8 if you can convince your DM that Sap master effectively gives you extra dice...) so one attack per round is still decent damage, and with a rogue BAB, your chance of landing the second shot is pretty low anyways.

If you really want multiple attacks, I think the best way would be improved invis. I'd have to re-read it, but I recall somewhere that creature that can't see the attacker, can't react to it, thus can be subject to sneak attack, I am not sure if they are just denied dex or are actually considered flat footed. I'd have to double check. If they are not flat footed you'd lose the Sap Master, but keep the Sap Adept. Scotts vanishing trick, a successful stealth check as part of a move/5' step would suffice for 1 shot per round. Full concealment either via obscuring mist or darkness would be effectively improved invis so long as you can see them and they can't see you (darkvision, cloudgazer etc)

As to Shatter Defense, you could use a regular sap and the enforcer feat for the first round, and get them shaken for a good long time. Then withdraw, or tumble away and use Shatter defense from a range to keep them flat footed.

Lastly, I am not terribly familiar with psionics or gunpowder and my group doesn't use either, so I haven't explored either, but if a merciful firearm could be made, it might make for an interesting combo.


Like the Scout 8, was mentioned, but build for strength not dex, or use items to pump strength to 19. Take the Racial Heritage feat-Ogre. Grab Vital Strike and Savage Crtical feat. Along with Bludgeoner & Sap feat tree.


The Mist Assassin build (Get a race w/a SLA of a 2nd level arcane spell, then level as Deaf Water Oracle 1/Rogue or Ninja 3/Arcane Trickster X, fire from inside mist or fog which you can see thru) should work just fine with this.

On the other hand Merciful Spell on Stone Discus sounds perfect & oracles don't get it, though practically every other spellcster does.


Bludgeoner a really good idea that would allow us to use a bow instead of the sling early. Strength vs Dex is always an interesting tradeoff, since in this case the bulk of the damage is due to sneak, I suspect the plus to hit from dex will work better than a plus to damage. I'll run some DPS calculations for that and vital strike when I am more awake.


I made a goblin ninja with a doublebarraled pistol that used this trick. Even with a normal pistol he would be ok just make sure to have mercyfull and distance on it. Attacking touch is amazing if you want to hit with all the attacks.


I think of a Gun as sort of like a Bludgeoning Ray Spell. It's a ranged touch attack at ray ranges.

And I want to play a goblin ninja with a gun!


Bolas & also the spell Ki Arrow which allows you to do your unarmed strike damage (a wand perhaps?).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/ki-arrow

I think this approach would be workable for an Arcane Trickster.


JustABill wrote:


If I am reading the Skirmisher ability right, an 8th level rogue(scout) who moves 10' treats his target as flat footed for his first attack,

This seems like the only reliable way to activate Sap Master as an archer. I'm pretty sure invis or other methods of getting sneak attacks do not make a target flat footed, even if they deny dex bonus.

That would mean any other classes or even dipping are pretty much out for a while, you have to get Rogue Scout 8 ASAP for the character to function as desired.


Does archer-fighter allow ranged feints? If so that could allow sneak attacks.


Still doesn't make the opponent flat-footed.


Point on the flat-footed condition. I guess you need Shatter Defences, which is quite an investment of feats, to make full use of Sap Master.


Scout's Charge/Pounce is the best way, but that's not an option for ranged characters.

Eigengrau's first suggestion is probably the best for ranged characters.


This might not work, but I'll post it anyway. Uses 1 archetype for Swashbuckler and 2 Archetypes for Rogue.
Human, Picaroon-(Swashbuckler) 3/Scout-Swashbuckler (Rogue) 5

Feats I guess here are Rapid Reload, Quickdraw, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Weapon Focus Pistol, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses. Blade of Mercy trait if you want.

Free feats from classes are Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting. Picaroon also gives me Firearm prof.

Using Rogues Swashbuckler archetype to gain 2 combat tricks for feats.

Need a Merciful Pistol and Alchemical cartridges or whatever you do to get faster reloads.

Using the 3rd level Swashbuckler deed called Menacing Swordplay, which doesn't say you have to use it in melee combat. Throw a dagger at your opponent, hope it hits, if it does use the Swift Action from the Deed to Intimidate, Shatter Defenses now kicks on, use the remainder of your attacks that round to fire your merciful pistol which does bludgeoning damage to turn Sap Master sneak attack damage on. Merciful adds +1d6, Sap Tree feats do 6d6+12 and whatever the pistol does 1d8+1? plus whatever your dagger did.

3 more levels in Scout will allow you to move 10ft and get sneak attack with the pistol as well, at that level you'll do 8d6+16 from SA dice.

You could just also skip that stuff and go with Stealth hides to Snipe, by grabbing the Warning Shot feat. You'll have to forgo the 1st round attack damage and somehow keep the shaken condition going. You'll still need Shatter Defenses and a bludgeoning weapon though or Merciful weapon.


So here's a start at a build thru level 8 we'll keep it all rogue(scout)

R1 - Feat Sap adept, Use Sling/Softstones close/flank with sap
R2 - Talent Finesse Rogue (hit better with your sap)
R3 - Feat improved initiative(might get 2 flat footed attacks with suprise)
R4 - Scouts Charge, Talent Suprise Attacks
R5 - Feat Sap Master
R6 - Talent combat trick, Enforcer
R7 - Feat Bludgeoner Now switch to shortbow/blunt arrows and lt mace
R8 - Skirmisher Feat Point Blank Shot. Now moving allows you to treat target as Flat Footed the Improved Init/and Suprise Attacks are not as needed and may be retrained out.

From this point forward, focus on archery feats, consider a ranger(archer) dip.
Alternatively grab a level in magus (greensting or possibly Spire) and use the merciful Ioun Strike.

As always comments and suggestions are welcome...


Eigengrau wrote:
Does archer-fighter allow ranged feints? If so that could allow sneak attacks.

Yes, it does.


avr wrote:
Point on the flat-footed condition. I guess you need Shatter Defences, which is quite an investment of feats, to make full use of Sap Master.

Shatter Defenses only requires Dazzling Display. And Dazzling Display requires Weapon Focus. Sap Master Requires Sap Adept. That's 5 Feats: you have a point. I don't thinks that's so bad for what you're getting, though. Dazzling Display makes all opponents within 30' Shaken. That's pretty cool in and of itself. Then all the opponents you can hit the next round will be flatfooted the next round, then all those will that you hit take double sneak attack damage +1.

Actually, come to think of it, Sap Master really does seem more like the cherry on the sundae and less like the hot fudge. I do prefer to acquire cheap and effective feat/ability combos first, like Ranged Feint, Improved Initiative, Sap Adept, and Ninja Vanishing Trick all to augment Sneak Attack. Or maybe instead of levels in Archer Archetype for Ranged Feint, take levels in Gunslinger to go along with Ninja Vanishing Trick, so you will be always targeting your opponents' Flatfooted, TOUCH AC. That would be just unfair. Firearms have lower rate of fire, anyway, so the fact that Ninja Vanishing Trick would only work 1 shot per round is not such a big deal. Get Deadly Aim to maximize that one bullet.

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