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One thing that irked me of 3.5 was that there was not way to quickly sheath weapons, this concern was shared with many friend who also let quick draw to work as quick sheath as a houserule. When i turned to pathfinder i hoped they had a similar feat. However havent found something like that and im wondering why at this stage it hasnt been createad. Im guessing that free action swaping weapons could lead to shenaningans or maybe infinity loops but im not sure is that because a good wording could solve all those problems. Its such a fundamental feat because its such a basic action that im really wondering if the implications of a feat like this are so dangerous that it was not created or else is just that people is just not concerned with it enough
In 3.0 Oriental Adventures, I could see the risk, since they had the iajutsu focus skill/system that only worked on a draw from the sheath.
Unless there are other powers now that only work on the draw, I can't see the harm of it now. If it ever became an issue, I'd likely let quick draw, or during a move with +1 bab work for it.
Yeah, but the Swordsaint doesn't really actually benefit from it much, unless they're Order of the Flame-- they can only use it once a day on any given target, and only has a very small number of challenges per day. Order of the Flame is the only loophole with multiple targets per challenge, but that's extremely situational, at best.
I don't know exactly how it works, but I can only assume this makes free action-spamming Gunslingers even crazier.
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Sorry, but I disagree. I think that not having a 'quick-sheath' option makes sense. It is much easier to unsheath as it requires very little precision while sheathing would.
Then shouldn't quick-draw be something everyone can do, while quick-sheath is a feat?
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Quick sheathing requires a level of precision that is not really plausible especially when moving. It might also interact with the gunslinger in ways that won't go well.
Yeah I know someone will come in with the "dragons and fireball" statement, but that does not mean that people don't have limitations on what they can do with regard to dexterity(not the game term).
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Sorry, but I disagree. I think that not having a 'quick-sheath' option makes sense. It is much easier to unsheath as it requires very little precision while sheathing would.Then shouldn't quick-draw be something everyone can do, while quick-sheath is a feat?
Again, no.
For example, Iaijutsu, the art of quick-drawing a sword, was something that a samurai became skilled at through training. A swordsman who was skilled at Iaijutsu could use the motion of drawing his sword as the first slash attack at an opponent (and very effectively). Therefore, making Quick Draw a feat does make sense to me as it is a skill that would not be common to everyone.
Quick Sheath does not feel right in a regular game. I can see it in a anime-themed RPG or a Mythic campaign, but it did not sound like you were asking for those types of games.
So, make the requirements something like 20 dex and ability to cast any kind of spells I guess, so you can't make the "it's not realistic" argument?
I don't think the ability to cast spells should have any impact on this, nor should your dex. It is just the point that it would be highly improbable(impossible IMO) for anyone to be able to do it.
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or:
Quickdraw (modified)
Prerequisites: BAB 1+ or Sleight of Hand 1 rank
Benefit: You may draw a weapon as a free action, sheathe a weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity, or draw a concealed weapon (see Sleight of Hand) as a move action.
no "quick-sheathing" but it enables golfclubbin' better'n current rules without making it totally carte blanche.
maybe "quick-sheathing" could be a Sleight of Hand skill DC 30, with a +10 if you have Quickdraw feat?
It gets to the point where too many mundane Things require a feat. See feat taxes such as combat expertise. Vital strike, something that could have enhanced the zystem if Integrated, or bracing.
As you say, let Quick Draw do this. Too mich mundane feat bloating as it is.
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Quick sheathing requires a level of precision that is not really plausible especially when moving. It might also interact with the gunslinger in ways that won't go well.
Yeah I know someone will come in with the "dragons and fireball" statement, but that does not mean that people don't have limitations on what they can do with regard to dexterity(not the game term).
Amusingly, Gunslingers actually have a Feat for this, and are the only ones who do.
Amusingly, Gunslingers actually have a Feat for this, and are the only ones who do.Quick sheathing requires a level of precision that is not really plausible especially when moving. It might also interact with the gunslinger in ways that won't go well.
Yeah I know someone will come in with the "dragons and fireball" statement, but that does not mean that people don't have limitations on what they can do with regard to dexterity(not the game term).
From a conceptual point of view I think it is more difficult to sheathe a sword, but since it is already in the game for gunslingers then everyone may as well have it.
So, make the requirements something like 20 dex and ability to cast any kind of spells I guess, so you can't make the "it's not realistic" argument?I don't think the ability to cast spells should have any impact on this, nor should your dex. It is just the point that it would be highly improbable(impossible IMO) for anyone to be able to do it.
You really think this'd be impossible to do for a person who is more dexterious than it's humanly possible, is literally magical, and has explicitly trained for it?
That's... amazing, in a way.
Being able to cast spells has nothing to do with your physical ability so that is why casting spells is a non-factor.
As for dexterous part, even that has its limits. You are likely to stab yourself in the leg even with a dex of over 30 IMO especially while moving.
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I don't know exactly how it works, but I can only assume this makes free action-spamming Gunslingers even crazier.
Actually as someone said before gunslinger already have "quick sheath"
Quick Sheath does not feel right in a regular game. I can see it in a anime-themed RPG or a Mythic campaign, but it did not sound like you were asking for those types of games.
Well its not even a mythic feat and i dont particulary dislike anime. I mean we have androids with railguns in Golarion fighting Samurais with magic. That doesnt sound like a "Lord of the rings like" setting to me.
And again if the problem is "realism" then there is no need to be selective. I mean monks can turn you to stone with a hit, would it be ok for you we make quick sheath a spell or a Su ability?
As for dexterous part, even that has its limits. You are likely to stab yourself in the leg even with a dex of over 30 IMO especially while moving.
Isnt 10 standard human? I think you understimate what dex 30 means, or what talented humans (18 dex?) can accomplish. Google "People are awesome". Bizzare Precision, inhuman almost..yet they are.
I don't know exactly how it works, but I can only assume this makes free action-spamming Gunslingers even crazier.Actually as someone said before gunslinger already have "quick sheath"
Quick Sheath does not feel right in a regular game. I can see it in a anime-themed RPG or a Mythic campaign, but it did not sound like you were asking for those types of games.Well its not even a mythic feat and i dont particulary dislike anime. I mean we have androids with railguns in Golarion fighting Samurais with magic. That doesnt sound like a "Lord of the rings like" setting to me.
And again if the problem is "realism" then there is no need to be selective. I mean monks can turn you to stone with a hit, would it be ok for you we make quick sheath a spell or a Su ability?
Sometimes when people reference realism they mean it breaks verisimilitude for them or it is to say that certain elements while truly not realistic are easier to accept than other things.
I personally don't care for the ability to turn people to stone with a punch, but I try to remember that monks are supernatural in nature.
Basically referencing an unreal thing that they do accept is not likely to change someone's perception of the unreal thing that they do not want to accept.
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Isnt 10 standard human? I think you understimate what dex 30 means, or what talented humans (18 dex?) can accomplish. Google "People are awesome". Bizzare Precision, inhuman almost..yet they are.
As for dexterous part, even that has its limits. You are likely to stab yourself in the leg even with a dex of over 30 IMO especially while moving.
I have seen people do amazing things, and I stand by my statement. You are not running and quick sheathing in real life. Well you might get lucky once, but the majority of the time I expect for the person to fail. I also dont see it happening in mid-combat even if you are not running.
If you have a video of someone quick-sheathing a sword I would like to see it. Other acts of dexterity are impressive but they are not sheathing a sword.
Do you understand what 30 DEX means? You are literally untouchable by common people while naked and not wearing any sort of armor, short of one of them rolling a nat 20. If you are trained in any dex skill to the same extent, you can literally steal from the gods themselves, should you run into one while drinking in the tavern you just stole.
You think someone with that amount of body control and, well, dexterity could not sheath a sword fast? Seriously?
Oh hey, another example: You can have a reach fighter with whirlwind attack attack up to, well, infinity creatures because how any number of tiny ones can fit in one square with the same precision and you have problem with a guy sheathing weapons fast?
You can have a barbarian rage so hard he grows wings, but you can't have a guy sheath weapons fast?
I'm sorry, this is just breaking my mind here.
Commoners are not all that impressive in Pathfinder, and a nat 20 touches anyone.
A statted out deity may have some anti steal power. He may even be able to read you mind so I doubt that is happening.
That is a by product of the whirlwind feat, and nobody expecting it to be used again tiny creatures, and the amount is far from infinite.
Growing wings which is magical has nothing to do with quick sheathing.
One thing does not make another automatically true. By that logic anything can be possible without mythic feats.
A person is more likely to find his way to a place 1000 miles with no eyes and no help than he is to survive swimming in lava(which the game allows), but that does not mean I am going to expect for him to consistently find a place 1000 miles away in that condition.
The same thing applies to quick sheathing.
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Isnt 10 standard human? I think you understimate what dex 30 means, or what talented humans (18 dex?) can accomplish. Google "People are awesome". Bizzare Precision, inhuman almost..yet they are.
As for dexterous part, even that has its limits. You are likely to stab yourself in the leg even with a dex of over 30 IMO especially while moving.I have seen people do amazing things, and I stand by my statement. You are not running and quick sheathing in real life. Well you might get lucky once, but the majority of the time I expect for the person to fail. I also dont see it happening in mid-combat even if you are not running.
If you have a video of someone quick-sheathing a sword I would like to see it. Other acts of dexterity are impressive but they are not sheathing a sword.
Considering most people are 2nd level or so... It makes sense they are not capable of doing that. Hell the world's greatest acrobat must be a 5th level expert with Skill Focus on Acrobatics and Dex 21...
I fail to see why a guy who is far better trained for combat and capable of defeating a whole pride of lions by himself should be limited by what real people can do.
The point here is that it is beyond human. Whirlwind attack, pushing Assault, manyshot/rapidshot/archery in pf, reload times of guns, dodging a stream of fire (evasion), carrying 10 weapons a bedroll pots extra clothes wearing z cloak and still being able to swing a sword 5 times or sprint. Unthinkable and unrealistic. And that is just martial stuff.
This isnt a realism question anymore.
Anything above 15 dex starts to be awesome, by 20 it's unreal. 30? Youre having paper rock scissor games With Neo while you Dodge bullets for breakfast.
Ps: no sheathing videos but some stuff people pull off is way more impressive. Plus, some weapons are very easy to sheathe, where the Equipment has been modified to make it fast. Sorry for the horrible autocaps/correct btw.
Isnt 10 standard human? I think you understimate what dex 30 means, or what talented humans (18 dex?) can accomplish. Google "People are awesome". Bizzare Precision, inhuman almost..yet they are.
As for dexterous part, even that has its limits. You are likely to stab yourself in the leg even with a dex of over 30 IMO especially while moving.I have seen people do amazing things, and I stand by my statement. You are not running and quick sheathing in real life. Well you might get lucky once, but the majority of the time I expect for the person to fail. I also dont see it happening in mid-combat even if you are not running.
If you have a video of someone quick-sheathing a sword I would like to see it. Other acts of dexterity are impressive but they are not sheathing a sword.
Considering most people are 2nd level or so... It makes sense they are not capable of doing that. Hell the world's greatest acrobat must be a 5th level expert with Skill Focus on Acrobatics and Dex 21...
I fail to see why a guy who is far better trained for combat and capable of defeating a whole pride of lions by himself should be limited by what real people can do.
I think it is that difficult to place the weapon in that tiny slot while running even for most fantasy humans.
Isnt 10 standard human? I think you understimate what dex 30 means, or what talented humans (18 dex?) can accomplish. Google "People are awesome". Bizzare Precision, inhuman almost..yet they are.
As for dexterous part, even that has its limits. You are likely to stab yourself in the leg even with a dex of over 30 IMO especially while moving.I have seen people do amazing things, and I stand by my statement. You are not running and quick sheathing in real life. Well you might get lucky once, but the majority of the time I expect for the person to fail. I also dont see it happening in mid-combat even if you are not running.
If you have a video of someone quick-sheathing a sword I would like to see it. Other acts of dexterity are impressive but they are not sheathing a sword.
You're not in real life. You're in a fantasy game, playing much larger than life heroes.
The test here is much closer to "Would you accept it in an action flick (maybe better a martial arts movie)?" than "Can someone do it in real life?"
I have different allowance for different media and specific stories.
Some things I see in movies I would allow in pathfinder and not other and vice versa. As an example if Conan goes swimming in lava or is hit by a giant(huge or bigger) I expect for him to be dead.
The point here is that it is beyond human. Whirlwind attack, pushing Assault, manyshot/rapidshot/archery in pf, reload times of guns, dodging a stream of fire (evasion), carrying 10 weapons a bedroll pots extra clothes wearing z cloak and still being able to swing a sword 5 times or sprint. Unthinkable and unrealistic. And that is just martial stuff.
This isnt a realism question anymore.
Anything above 15 dex starts to be awesome, by 20 it's unreal. 30? Youre having paper rock scissor games With Neo while you Dodge bullets for breakfast.Ps: no sheathing videos but some stuff people pull off is way more impressive. Plus, some weapons are very easy to sheathe, where the Equipment has been modified to make it fast. Sorry for the horrible autocaps/correct btw.
I answered the "realism" think a few post ago. Realism is basically a convenient word for the following which I will post again:
"Sometimes when people reference realism they mean it breaks verisimilitude for them or it is to say that certain elements while truly not realistic are easier to accept than other things.
I personally don't care for the ability to turn people to stone with a punch, but I try to remember that monks are supernatural in nature.
Basically referencing an unreal thing that they do accept is not likely to change someone's perception of the unreal thing that they do not want to accept."
I don't think it is "wrong" for the ability to exist, and I would not ban it, unless someone tried to abuse it. I just give it a higher difficulty than other people are.
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Some anecdotal addition then. I work with knives in sometimes unpredictable, unbalancing, sometimes stressful, situations. I can assure you i can sheathe a 25 cm blade knife om the run nå problems. I can do it hanging somewhere stupid. Small thing, but know it inside out and i know where to guide it on the sheathe.
Thats a fairly average human being.
Now increase dex to inhuman Levels and years of weapon training.
As per difficulty, Yeah perhaps if Quick Draw let you do it above Dex 16 or such itd represent the challenge more, i do get your point.
Edit: abuse of the feat is another thing, if abused you can put limits. Remember as GM you say how many free actions players cam have. Example, if you are aheathing you may only do it once/turn or as part of another action(move). It perhaps isnt that broken though, blink back belt does the sheathing of thrown weapons itself.
this is funny, a few days ago (friday i think), i decided to make a swordsaint samurai for a game a friend of mine was putting together, and I basically wanted to play Jetstream Sam from Metal Gear revengence, and thus wanted to do it mid battle, and not at the start, and was disheartened to find it wasn't rules legal.
When it comes right down to it if I had to choose between the believability of quick sheathing and the believability of someone walking around with more than a dozen weapons readily available without it interfering with their movement I'd be more inclined to choose the former over the latter. And really having over a dozen weapons is probably a minimum for a character who wants to make quick draw a worth while feat.
Also I'm not sure why there is so much focus on the idea of sheathing while running. If quick sheath were to parallel quick draw then it would be more like sheathing so quickly that the effort it takes is trivial within a six second time span.
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I don't think that quick-sheathing should exist in terms of a free action. Perhaps if it cost an extra feat (psst. btw, one does exist). Maybe, instead of quick draw making sheathing a weapon as free action, it made it a swift action, it would be balanced.
I don't think that quick-sheathing should exist in terms of a free action. Perhaps if it cost an extra feat (psst. btw, one does exist). Maybe, instead of quick draw making sheathing a weapon as free action, it made it a swift action, it would be balanced.
Feat bloating restricts character options, it doesnt expand i believe. Roll it into Quick Draw or Lightning reflexes, mobility, something useful. Gets to the point that you need a special feat for every little thing and ruling while number of feats aatainable is static.
I don't think that quick-sheathing should exist in terms of a free action. Perhaps if it cost an extra feat (psst. btw, one does exist). Maybe, instead of quick draw making sheathing a weapon as free action, it made it a swift action, it would be balanced.
what if, I want to sheathe a weapon so I can draw it again?
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I don't think that quick-sheathing should exist in terms of a free action. Perhaps if it cost an extra feat (psst. btw, one does exist). Maybe, instead of quick draw making sheathing a weapon as free action, it made it a swift action, it would be balanced.
Wow thats actually pretty good and it looks pretty balanced, more points for Dreamscarred Press :D
I feel quick draw should allow sheathing as a swift action. If you have dual wielding you can sheath your two weapons simultaneously as a swift action. A new feat would have to something greater than just sheath to be worth it.
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So to make things clear what annoys me is not the feat bloating or realism argument. Its actually the option doesnt exist in any way, not even in the form of something magical (which pretty much everyone agrees if its magical it can break verosimilitude). It would certaitly be annoying to have to eat more feat tax for someting so underwhelming but at least if it exists someone can make use of it, diversity is good for the game
I don't think that quick-sheathing should exist in terms of a free action. Perhaps if it cost an extra feat (psst. btw, one does exist). Maybe, instead of quick draw making sheathing a weapon as free action, it made it a swift action, it would be balanced.what if, I want to sheathe a weapon so I can draw it again?
So it would be a swift action to sheath it, and then a free action to draw it?
I don't understand the question.
Some anecdotal addition then. I work with knives in sometimes unpredictable, unbalancing, sometimes stressful, situations. I can assure you i can sheathe a 25 cm blade knife om the run nå problems. I can do it hanging somewhere stupid. Small thing, but know it inside out and i know where to guide it on the sheathe.
Thats a fairly average human being.Now increase dex to inhuman Levels and years of weapon training.
As per difficulty, Yeah perhaps if Quick Draw let you do it above Dex 16 or such itd represent the challenge more, i do get your point.
Edit: abuse of the feat is another thing, if abused you can put limits. Remember as GM you say how many free actions players cam have. Example, if you are aheathing you may only do it once/turn or as part of another action(move). It perhaps isnt that broken though, blink back belt does the sheathing of thrown weapons itself.
If this feat ever exist it would work on any weapon, and I am not sure of the context upon which your weapon is being sheathed. I am searching google for videos.
So far I found a video showing how to do so without looking, and a guy in his loosing 4 fingers. He is also going very slow, so I am still looking.
When it comes right down to it if I had to choose between the believability of quick sheathing and the believability of someone walking around with more than a dozen weapons readily available without it interfering with their movement I'd be more inclined to choose the former over the latter. And really having over a dozen weapons is probably a minimum for a character who wants to make quick draw a worth while feat.
Also I'm not sure why there is so much focus on the idea of sheathing while running. If quick sheath were to parallel quick draw then it would be more like sheathing so quickly that the effort it takes is trivial within a six second time span.
My GM put a limit on how many weapons you can carry at once depending on their size. It is a houserule, but it did make sense, and I agree that some things the game does allow make less sense than quick sheathing, and no I am not talking about magic or dragons. That is why I would not ban it.
I think a swift action is a good compromise, and it can be added to the quickdraw feat. I really don't think it(quick sheathing) is worth its own feat except for specialized builds.
Thumbs up to Squirrel_Dude.