Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I do see this as a paid Beta, personally, and it does make me more forgiving.
I see MVP by the end of Nov, and by Mid 2015, I see the game being very robust.
Cheatle, would you be forgiving, if your Internet provider made you pay for a beta access, because they are not ready to give you a professional service ?
I can't understand how one can be forgiving, for something labelled "beta", even though you pay the same amount as if it wasn't labelled "beta".
Goblin Squad Member
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I feel like the selling point of MVP is if you believe this game will become a big enough deal that the extra time to advance your character is worth the time and money.
I feel like the biggest mistake Goblinworks is making is in believing a half baked MMO is MVP.
I realize it's too late to go back and do this now but they should have gone the route of Star Citizen or Life is Feudal and released something smaller first then build toward an MMO.
Their "Pit Fighter" program that they canceled probably should have been their feature product for the first year or two. Focus on creating a really great combat system and giving various PvE and PvP arenas to test it in. Implement all the core classes and races, real character customization. Once you have a really great combat system with all the core classes then you build and launch an MMO with territorial control, feuds, and siege warfare all in place.
That's where LiF has pulled so far ahead of PFO. They kept their ambitions reasonable and it allowed them to deliver a product that didn't feel soulless and is actually fun to play. Plus you wouldn't have the issue of players who want to play monks and druids having to save most of their XP or end up severely behind. That's always rubbed me very wrong.
Stay calm and be fabulous. Seriously, take a breath.
As I have said before, your points have validity and many of us (including myself) share some of your concerns. However, the way you're reacting is inappropriate for this stage of the game; we have a long way to go. Do you think it is easy for me, as a PvP veteran, to play this Alpha right now? Trust me, it's not, but why do you and I react so differently?
The proper method at this stage is to highlight your concerns and hope they are addressed. What you are doing is the opposite, you just want every feature important to you right now. And because of your experience in MMOs you know that Pathfinder's success depends on the implementation of said features. Open your eyes to reality though and try to grasp the concept of this being an indie MMO, the first this company has developed, and there will be mistakes and delays. Perhaps it is you setting yourself up for failure, not the developers?
Yes, you are your own worst enemy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dozens of offers of alpha invites left unused or outright rejected.
I have failed to get anyone interested in this game who was not already here on these forums since the release of alpha.
It seems, from a marketing perspective, as if your pool(s) of potential players might be at issue, rather than the game. If Goblinworks is pleased with their player-population, but your friends don't want to play, could that be saying more about their "fit" to the product than about the qualities of PFO?
You're interested in specific individuals wanting to play. Goblinworks is interested in generic individuals wanting to play. Statistically, they have the upper hand.
Just because Goblinworks wants someone to like the product, doesn't mean she will. The same is true for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How are you entitled to a refund?Well, you know, everyone isn't from the USA, and in Europ, consumers ARE protected. We have such a thing called "abusive clause", which basically gives 0 value to most of the video games contracts.
And concerning PFO, I could lawfully get a refound for my EE access and anything outside my alpha access and the KS. basically, I can ask for a refund for everything that's not delivered.
I don't have time and energy to lose doing that to get back 150 bucks, but I could.
Could you legally force a refund right now? Have you consulted a lawyer? Do you have a foundation for the terms with which you would win a lawsuit that you could share with us here on the forums?
Even if you had unlimited time and energy to 'lose' to get back your 150 bucks, do you have a legitimate case in your region that entitles you to a refund?
I understand that it's possible to be entitled. However, are you actually entitled at this point? I would really like to know your specific current legal status based on the contract you signed for any purchases related to this game you've made thus far.
Also if you have time how that contract relates to this thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Think about those that plunked down $5,000 for a Tavern if the server population never gets above 8-10,000.
There's no way to tell how many will be perfectly pleased vs those perfectly displeased. Each donor will have had an individual reason for the spend, and some, I expect, will not have considered it an investment, but a bet on the future of Goblinworks, or possibly even a gift.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cheatle, would you be forgiving, if your Internet provider made you pay for a beta access, because they are not ready to give you a professional service ?
If you mean by 'forgiving' that you must abide by whatever limited functionality is allowable during the purchase then of course he should. By definition, you should consider these limitations prior to purchase.
Google's high speed internet programs have Trusted Testers with NDA clauses. I think you're using internet access as a sample here because it implies a monopolized utility. Is it anymore 'absurd' to lose internet access more than any other service? Not at all.
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There's no way to tell how many will be perfectly pleased vs those perfectly displeased
That concept is what prompted my realization about the danger of large money value contributions to kickstarters.
Even if you make good progress on your software's development, by the nature of a bell curve of personality types and expectations you are practically guaranteed that a certain percentage of the population will be unhappy with progress/results. Some will be ridiculously over-supportive, and most will be somewhere in the middle.
If some members of high-money-contributing backers are in that unhappy subset, then you are sure to be in for a high dose of frustration from that group.
My guess is people like Andius and Audocet are probably more angry at themselves than GW, for having put that kind of money into a game that didn't yet exist, and have nowhere else but here to vent.
I can sympathize with them somewhat, I put down $150 for ArcheAge and the game changed right out from under me during Alpha. I ended up giving the entirety of my founders pack perks to a noob that got griefed out of his farmhouse on day 1 launch for North America. Mailed the goods, uninstalled the game, and never looked back. I'll take the karma and move on.
If I had plopped down $1000, well I'd probably be quite a bit more frustrated. No doubt. It's probably a mistake to contribute any amount of money to a kickstarter that you aren't willing to just shrug your shoulders at and walk away.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Think about those that plunked down $5,000 for a Tavern if the server population never gets above 8-10,000.
I don't need to think about them at all.
People paid $5,000 to have their name in a Leisure Suit Larry game. Even if their purchase was based on speculating future fame and name recognition value, why should I, as an end user reviewing a product from my purchase perspective, be sympathetic?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can sympathize with them somewhat, I put down $150 for ArcheAge and the game changed right out from under me during Alpha. I ended up giving the entirety of my founders pack perks to a noob that got griefed out of his farmhouse on day 1 launch for North America. Mailed the goods, uninstalled the game, and never looked back. I'll take the karma and move on.If I had plopped down $1000, well I'd probably be quite a bit more frustrated. No doubt. It's probably a mistake to contribute any amount of money to a kickstarter that you aren't willing to just shrug your shoulders at and walk away.
Oh sweet Yeshua, this a million times. I'm seeing some economic terms being thrown around with reckless abandon here.
1. There is a very big difference between a kickstarter and an investor.
2. There is a very big difference between speculation and supply and demand.
3. A person who loses $5,000 dollars as a speculator for a video game has about the same right to be mad as the dude who lost his NFL parlay on Sunday.
I am a PFO fanboi and proud of it. I've given PFO $140. When the game has proven more to me, I will give more. And back to the supply and demand, right now the market for DT's is saturated. You can't sell them at triple price now anymore than you could 6 months ago. Any SERIOUS speculator of PFO DT's is looking at another 6 months to several years for their profit. Otherwise you don't know what the heck you are doing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems, from a marketing perspective, as if your pool(s) of potential players might be at issue, rather than the game. If Goblinworks is pleased with their player-population, but your friends don't want to play, could that be saying more about their "fit" to the product than about the qualities of PFO?
My pool of potential players is formed from several MMOs that I play, and well over 300 players. Not all of these are PVP focused players, but most are multi-game MMO players.
Based not just on my own sampling, but from several other "guilds", PFO is not selling to the "generic MMO" player well enough.
All I can do is lead them to the water (handed out invites), of those that looked before they drank, they all said "No Thanks". Even with Alpha being free, they said "No Thanks".
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems, from a marketing perspective, as if your pool(s) of potential players might be at issue, rather than the game. If Goblinworks is pleased with their player-population, but your friends don't want to play, could that be saying more about their "fit" to the product than about the qualities of PFO?My pool of potential players is formed from several MMOs that I play, and well over 300 players. Not all of these are PVP focused players, but most are multi-game MMO players.
Based not just on my own sampling, but from several other "guilds", PFO is not selling to the "generic MMO" player well enough.
All I can do is lead them to the water (handed out invites), of those that looked before they drank, they all said "No Thanks". Even with Alpha being free, they said "No Thanks".
*shrug* Their loss.
Edit: to expand on this. It may be you are offering the invites to people who, by their nature, are not interested in the stated design goals of PFO. Especially if you are selecting out a group in hopes of offsetting what you perceive to be a certain bias in the existing population. My experience handing out invites has been very different, but the population I've gone to have tended to be older with limited small MMO experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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*shrug* Their loss.
No it isn't, it is GW's loss and ultimately it may be our loss as well. This fanboy arrogance will not get this game to OE. It might not get this game past its first subscription drop off, as soon as the KS Free Time ends.
I have always said it, PFO will have two significant drop offs in subs. One a few months after EE and the second (if they are lucky to get there) after OE. Yes I know that Ryan has said that won't happen, be he is shortsightedly wrong.
Yes, I do know better, I have had more involvement in MMOs than he has. I have alpha and beta tested dozens of MMOs, and I have played many, many for months and even years. I have watched servers and whole games lose their populations at predictable intervals and I have watched them decline rapidly due to no direct fault of their own.
There is only one that I have seen show steady growth, with only a few major dips in subscriptions. I have seen several have a resurgence after major revamps, but they never return to their highest population levels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even with 9.1, character motion is still jerky. They still run with a limp. Arrows still shoot in the air (from lower left to upper right of screen) and yet still hit the target at dead center of screen.
...
Here is a Chevy (Fallen Earth)
I'm with you on graphics Blud and hat has been harped on constantly the last few weeks: combat animations are the #1 thing that needs to be improved before EE. We have seen GW responses that they are on it. We'll see but so far I've been happy with the progress of the updates.
Re: Hugos and Chevys. I think there has to be a better metaphor for it because Hugos and Chevy doesn't communicate PFO's appeal which is the fact that it's an indie product with features that more expensive titles can't have.
But I'll play anyways. I've always understood that day 1 of EE was going to be a Hugo. Where I draw the line is that it has to be a fully functional Hugo. EE is a very simple product with just enough stuff in their for the hardcore base to have fun. In return we get to build the world from scratch, proto settlements and XP head starts. At some point the product becomes a "Chevy" and more people join the game and the savvy speculators get to be filthy rich.
EE is a sub product within the product. It is not meant for general consumption.
That's the plan and it was always the plan. If you don't agree fine, but you were told.
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Goblin Squad Member
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*shrug* Their loss.No it isn't, it is GW's loss and ultimately it may be our loss as well. This fanboy arrogance will not get this game to OE. It might not get this game past its first subscription drop off, as soon as the KS Free Time ends.
I have always said it, PFO will have two significant drop offs in subs. One a few months after EE and the second (if they are lucky to get there) after OE. Yes I know that Ryan has said that won't happen, be he is shortsightedly wrong.
Yes, I do know better, I have had more involvement in MMOs than he has. I have alpha and beta tested dozens of MMOs, and I have played many, many for months and even years. I have watched servers and whole games lose their populations at predictable intervals and I have watched them decline rapidly due to no direct fault of their own.
There is only one that I have seen show steady growth, with only a few major dips in subscriptions. I have seen several have a resurgence after major revamps, but they never return to their highest population levels.
No. It is their loss though I know you don't understand that. Considering you don't know me from a brick in the wall, calling me a fanboi cause I don't share your opinion kinda says more about you then me ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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No. It is their loss though I know you don't understand that. Considering you don't know me from a brick in the wall, calling me a fanboi cause I don't share your opinion kinda says more about you then me ;)
"Shrug" your loss. You see how that works, or doesn't work?
Shrugging off legitimate concerns is arrogance. It is GW loss because PFO is not giving a potential consumer of their product anything that the consumer can not get elsewhere.
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Sine the DT market is so saturated, I'm looking to take one off your hands for a decent price :)
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Yes, I do know better, I have had more involvement in MMOs than he has. I have alpha and beta tested dozens of MMOs, and I have played many, many for months and even years.
Bludd, from some of the posts of yours I've read I think you generally have some good points on a bunch of things. This one though is a bit of a stretch.
Driving cars does not make you an expert at building cars, or marketing cars, or running a car factory.
Just because you play a game, doesn't mean you know more or less than those who built/run it unless you are running sophisticated exit surveys (which many games do) and/or have access to said survey data (which I suspect you don't) - you're observations can be skewed or distorted due to things like confirmation bias, proximity bias, etc.
I certainly hope Ryan is looking at observations of MMOPRGs and shaping PFO accordingly. I don't see any reason to think he isn't, or that he is not acutely aware of various consumer trends shaping the industry.
Is there anything that should make me think otherwise, other than disagreements with players who may or may not have made an MMORPG before?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Could you legally force a refund right now? Have you consulted a lawyer? Do you have a foundation for the terms with which you would win a lawsuit that you could share with us here on the forums?
Even if you had unlimited time and energy to 'lose' to get back your 150 bucks, do you have a legitimate case in your region that entitles you to a refund?
I understand that it's possible to be entitled. However, are you actually entitled at this point? I would really like to know your specific current legal status based on the contract you signed for any purchases related to this game you've made thus far.
Also if you have time how that contract relates to this thread.
I'm entitled to a refund for anything not yet delivered. Even if I signed a contract saying otherwise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stability, tool-tips, and icons.
Who cares if the animations are slightly off if the game still crashes or de-syncs players?
I played for four hours last night and there were people in the chat constantly talking about how they couldn't interact with enemies, that they weren't taking damage, etc.
Three times a party member died because everyone else was de-synced and didn't know it before we attacked a group of enemies. Telling people to re-log or travel to another hex might work is not good enough.
I don't know what half of the feats actually do because the tool-tips are almost unreadable. The tool-tip window needs to be opaque, and the non-attack feat tool-tips need to have word-wrap.
The lack of icons makes it difficult to know what I actually have in my attack bar. Compared to animations, this is almost trivial work.
Fluid animations are a nice to have in a Beta, it is way easier to overlook less than awesome graphics in a Beta. What's hard, nay, impossible, to overlook is game-breaking bugs.
Now, saying all that, I really enjoyed playing the game and look forward to knocking down some escalations and crafting some stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No. It is their loss though I know you don't understand that. Considering you don't know me from a brick in the wall, calling me a fanboi cause I don't share your opinion kinda says more about you then me ;)"Shrug" your loss. You see how that works, or doesn't work?
Shrugging off legitimate concerns is arrogance. It is GW loss because PFO is not giving a potential consumer of their product anything that the consumer can not get elsewhere.
Arrogance is assuming your opinion is superior to others. My comment had nothing to do with the legitimate concerns voiced in this thread. You just assumed that. I actually find some merit in a lot of Andius's points, if not how he is expressing them. Overly restricted PvP is a particular concern of mine, but really isn't the issue. I simply believe that people who don't try PFO are ultimately missing out. So yeah, *shrug*. But I won't threadjack anymore.
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I know the devs are staying away from this latest flamewar of ours, but I just wanted to give a shoutout to them...you guys are doing a great job! The amount of work and care that has gone into this game is tremendous, and what you've achieved with such a small team and budget is mindblowing to me. Keep it up!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stability, tool-tips, and icons.
...and combat animations.
About a month ago that list was twice as long. That's why I'm feeling so confident we will have a pretty good game 2 weeks from now.
Tool tips is what I am least worried about. That can wait, the community is so close and small right now we can teach each other. The game has a steep learning curve, just like the former EVE players warned us it would, but it's addictive once you get rolling.
//edit I found stability great last night. So for me it's really just finish the icons and smooth the combat animations. Oh and the elf ears. God help us all, fix those elf ears.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game has a steep learning curve, just like the former EVE players warned us it would...
An eternal classic: Learning Curves
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know what that is without even clicking the link.
Since it's pretty bad form to start a thread about another game in the forums meant for this game, I feel this is a GREAT point to stop posting in this thread bumping it to the top and just let it die so we can go back to talking about what we need to do to build Pathfinder Online into the game we want to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I can agree on: Reinventing the wheel doesn't seem hardcore enough for GW. They've already reinvented the wheel and the inclined plane, and now they're combining them to reinvent the screw. I thought one of the reasons they chose Unity was the availability of off-the-shelf solutions. Sometimes GW seems devoted to building a 99% bespoke MMO instead.
Saying "I'll never stop fighting until Hitler is dead and the Nazis are defeated," or "They can put me in jail for decades, I won't quit until Apartheid is dismantled," is one thing. Saying "I'll keep paying for a video game subscription, even if I don't enjoy the game any more, just so I can keep opposing those Internet people I don't like," is something else.
People on the Internet lose any and all ability to affect your life the instant you stop going to the part of the Internet where they are. Continuing to pay for a game you enjoy is understandable. Declaring that you'll continue to pay long after the game has lost its fun, just because those people you don't like are still playing? That's where you lose me.
I enjoy the the game as-is, and I'm willing to wait four more weeks for the "meaning" behind "meaningful PVP" to arrive, before more robust PVP systems arrive.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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We chose Unity because it was the best available client-side solution. The asset store was not a factor.
For the most part, the stuff in the asset store isn't going to work with our tech without so much re-work that we would end up spending about as much time configuring it to work in our toolchain as making it ourselves. We were able to get a large package of weapons which we're using rather than spend time modelling "Pathfinder Specific" stuff (although we'll get to that eventually).
We are, in addition to using Unity, using an off-the-shelf animation package (which we had to integrate with Unity because Unity's built-in system is too slow for an MMO), we're using Havok Physics, we're using Grome, we're using an off-the-shelf content management system for the website, and an off-the-shell forum system that integrates with that CMS.
The two parts of the system where we have invested the most time are the art assets and the server and networking code. Those are essentially "the hard parts" of making an MMO.
We have also spent a lot of time working with Unity itself to determine how to maximize its visual performance. There's a lot of under-the-hood tech in Unity that has to be carefully tweaked and configured and we're using it in a nonstandard way. Our objective is to find a mixture of good quality and a large number of moving entities (usually games are either/or). We have a full-time staff position called a Tech Artist who works almost exclusively on that kind of thing.
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Cool, thanks for the insight Ryan. Appreciated
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So basically Decius, what you are saying is the availability of accounts purchased during the first Kickstarter which people have come to regret exceeds the number of new players who are seriously excited for this title but missed the first Kickstarter over a year ago.
That we've lost more serious players than we've gained in that time.
This isn't raising any red flags to you?
I swear you and Nihimon will be in the middle of defending every decision GW has ever made when the server shuts down for good.
No. I said that everyone who wants to pay $85 for EE (and is rational and has knowledge) has already done so.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm entitled to a refund for anything not yet delivered. Even if I signed a contract saying otherwise.Could you legally force a refund right now? Have you consulted a lawyer? Do you have a foundation for the terms with which you would win a lawsuit that you could share with us here on the forums?
Even if you had unlimited time and energy to 'lose' to get back your 150 bucks, do you have a legitimate case in your region that entitles you to a refund?
I understand that it's possible to be entitled. However, are you actually entitled at this point? I would really like to know your specific current legal status based on the contract you signed for any purchases related to this game you've made thus far.
Also if you have time how that contract relates to this thread.
I find that surprising; I thought contracts for future delivery were required for basic trade to happen at all.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I find that surprising; I thought contracts for future delivery were required for basic trade to happen at all.
Takasi precised "in your region", so I am answering about my region.
You can find it surprising, but we have a lot of consumer protection. We are not an Anglo-Saxon type of society, there is a lot of differences.
If I wanted to sue, the question would be about which country law is used, which is if I'm not mistaken mainly based on who is the initiator of the transaction. So essentially, if I was the one approached, for example by publicity in my email, well it would be my country law. If I spontaneously went on GW.com of my own initiative, it wouldn't.
Which one was it ? I have no idea, and I don't care, because the actual possibility of suing GW never was my point. My point was just that it doesn't go without saying, that you are screwed once you paid, and that it wasn't necessarily "normal" and evident, to pretend that the customer is automatically wrong. That's just a cultural bias.
For example, I can totally buy a car tomorrow, and I can get my money back until seven days after the transaction, and the seller can't do anything about it.
About a virtual service like a MMO subscription, there is no delay, I can't ask for a refund once the service has begun.
Anyway, I am not arguing that I could win a lawsuit here, I have no idea and I don't care (I never sued anyone for anything anyway), I am just stating that no, it's not "obvious", that the customer is the automatic loser.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In UK (an anlgo saxon society) consumer protection provisions apply to kickstarter launches just as they do any other product sold. Seller has obligation to deliver goods sold, false/misleading advertising is grounds for complaint, etc. I'm pretty sure the tax authorities see Kickstarter funds as advance sales and subject to sales tax the same as any other transaction. Statute takes precedence over contract terms and conditions. In practice I doubts its particularly easy to progress a claim.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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In UK (an anlgo saxon society) consumer protection provisions apply to kickstarter launches just as they do any other product sold. Seller has obligation to deliver goods sold, false/misleading advertising is grounds for complaint, etc. I'm pretty sure the tax authorities see Kickstarter funds as advance sales and subject to sales tax the same as any other transaction. Statute takes precedence over contract terms and conditions. In practice I doubts its particularly easy to progress a claim.
Yep, I doubt too !
By the way, the French government is actually legislating about kickstarter, limiting it in some way. 1 million euros is the maximum limit here, now, if the TV news were accurate.
I dunno if I can say the graphics are better or whatever, but if both PFO and LiF were in the state they are in without any possible issues (like crashing to desktop level issues), I would play LiF.Celestialiar, it may just be me, or a basic facet of your personality on the boards, but it feels like you've never had a single positive thing to say about the game in all the time you've been posting. I'm confused about why you are still bothering if it such a poor fit for you?
I explained it: hope. Albeit a small 85dollar nugget of hope.
I want to see it. It's not about food but flavor. I also thought the crafting system would have more flavor. I see this game is being built, but the systems... seem like they won't get much deeper. The only thing that is going to get deeper is TC.
I've been positive, at times, when I felt excited about something. I came into the game w/ an open mind, but the thing is... it's disappointing to see what is happening.
If PFO turned out to be a great game, I would be like man was I short sighted! And play it.
I didn't think we'd be finding nodes or... farming recipes for crafting. I kind of thought that would be a temporary measure until the environment was made more alive. alas.
Like I said, I will keep checking in. I was facetious when I said "I am hoping for them to come say, 'We are making the game deeper!'" But I keep waiting for depth, something to latch onto and say, "The person who is creative... not the person who grinds, will be successful."
The map could be 1000x what it is. It could have 10000 different types of resources, weapons, recipes, races, classes, skills... but if the base model is what it is, that's too simple.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The map could be 1000x what it is.
I'm not sure why that's a good thing, when people are already worried about how well we're going to be able to find each other--for both good and bad reasons--once we're all spread out to our Settlements, and travel-time is five minutes per hex. The current map is 28x29 hexes, so it'll take over two hours to go from one end to another; the full PFO map is 61x47, so travel time, even on the shorter dimension, is just short of four hours.
It could have 10000 different types of resources, weapons, recipes, races, classes, skills... but if the base model is what it is, that's too simple.
Again, how does this make things "better"? Today, people who are deeply involved with the public data are having trouble keeping 105 resources; 140 weapons; 1293 recipes; three races; four Roles; and 560 Feats, Skills, and Abilities straight, not to mention that more of most of those are coming, and we're trying to teach it all to newcomers.
Don't forget to add in 213 keywords, 24 proficiencies, and 239 Achievements...so far.
My plate feels full for now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think his point is that there isn't enough stuff in the game, it sounds like the variety of stuff feels shallow and grindy to him.
He doesn't want *more* stuff, he wants *better* stuff. I think the game will change pretty heavily around the Tier 2 equipment game. We'll see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe 1 minute.
Oops, I should've compensated somewhat for my unfortunate tendency to gather close-by nodes, kill singletons, and follow roads, mapping shrines and cross-roads as I go.
EDIT:
...travel-time is a minute per hex. The current map is 28x29 hexes, so it'll take almost a half-hour to go from one end to another; the full PFO map is 61x47, so travel time, even on the shorter dimension, is the best part of an hour.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TBH it's not 5 minutes to cross a hex. Maybe 1 minute.
Closer to 90 seconds if sprinting.
A hex is 680m side to side (780m corner to corner). Normal movement speed (not sprinting, not walking) is ~4.44 m/s. Sprinting appears to increase movement by +2/3.
(680m)/(4.44m/s*5/3)~91.9s
That assumes you can just go in a straight line in that hex. If not, then a little longer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, how many people have actually tried Life is Feudal?
I have logged in about 12 hours.
So having played both what is your impression of each?
I've tried it of course but I'm curious to hear a new perspective.
I have not tested LiF's combat system, other than getting attacked and nearly killed by a wolf.
That was very impressive. The wolf gave me lacerations, and fractured ribs. I was left unconscious at around 35 hp and the wolf continued to eat me down to about 25 points. The wolf wondered off a bit, and I was finally able to get up and slip away, back to my camp. It took me about 3 hours of game time to recover from disabled status. Another 9 hours to recover hit points to maximum. I don't currently have healing abilities.
Gathering / Crafting are far more detailed and intuitive than in PFO.
I do not know how the two companies compare, size and budget. I don't know what engine LiF is using either. Their business model seems to be: two modes of servers / game play: Your Own is a 64 player server and LiF: MMO with be 10k+. Both server types are open world, PvP, full loot.
Once I test out the combat system in a few days, I'll be able to speak more to it.
The map could be 1000x what it is.I'm not sure why that's a good thing, when people are already worried about how well we're going to be able to find each other--for both good and bad reasons--once we're all spread out to our Settlements, and travel-time is five minutes per hex. The current map is 28x29 hexes, so it'll take over two hours to go from one end to another; the full PFO map is 61x47, so travel time, even on the shorter dimension, is just short of four hours.
It could have 10000 different types of resources, weapons, recipes, races, classes, skills... but if the base model is what it is, that's too simple.Again, how does this make things "better"? Today, people who are deeply involved with the public data are having trouble keeping 105 resources; 140 weapons; 1293 recipes; three races; four Roles; and 560 Feats, Skills, and Abilities straight, not to mention that more of most of those are coming, and we're trying to teach it all to newcomers.
Don't forget to add in 213 keywords, 24 proficiencies, and 239 Achievements...so far.
My plate feels full for now.
Hm.
I can go at it from a different angle. What I was saying was "they could continue to stack more stuff, but if the basic idea does not change, it is too simple for me." You can plug whatever you want to into a formula, but I guess the base formula is not what I expected.
So if you go to a piece of rock protruding from the ground, fondle it for awhile, and it gives you... whatever. Then you do the plants, the trash, etc. You tiptoe around enemies. Maybe farm them a bit if you actually want a recipe, then you go home and make your item.
My issue is I feel the backbone of that... the "pve" element or the non-combat pvp element is not enough to support a great war game. Some might argue that as long as the soldiers are getting geared, it won't matter how flavorless the gearing is. Maybe. We shall see.
I don't see how adding pvp is going to make everything that is here now... so much more awesome. Main point.
But yeah peace...
Edit: @ Bludd. I must have met the same wolf. I got away from it once. Met some guy on the game and we were going to fight it, but it wrecked us. Hilariously, I died and then I saw it laying there after I res'd, and asked him, "Did you kill it?" And he was like nah... I think it's asleep. It was asleep. It just stopped in the middle of the fight and took a nap. heh.
Mind you, I don't care as much about terraforming. I just really thought PFO was going to have a similar level of environmental interaction as well as more interesting crafting. Possibly something where you could 'discover' new things. Sandbox to me is about discovery... and feeling as though the world is something you can reach out and touch with a mouse-click.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I didn't think we'd be finding nodes or... farming recipes for crafting. I kind of thought that would be a temporary measure until the environment was made more alive. alas.
So rather than sitting back passively, like a spectator, take an active role. Make suggestions toward your vision in the Ideascale crowdforging tool, Celest. What was you vision? However nebulous and unformed it might have been it was inspiring enough for you to make a meaningful commitment. If you manage to capture us with your vision we could well find our GW devs grow caught up in a brilliant idea and eventually it may become a milestone realized in our shared history.
But if you don't, if you allow it to lapse and fade, engulfed and fed upon in a parasitic mass of writhing disappointments and painful cynicisms we may never see its like again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At this point we have nothing more than a contentless theme-parkNo, we have the beginnings of a sandbox builder game with minimal PVE elements and the potential for PvP.
Being, perhaps you don't realize it but this statement sounds to me like you're saying PFO basically delivers almost nothing.
In comparison, Life is Feudal is delivering far more and likely by a similarly sized company and with a similar budget.
I unfortunately am at work and I can not research the specifics. However, what I hope the Devs (particularly Ryan) does is to look at this game, and many others, because they are all PFO's competition.
As I have said Minimal Viable Product is not "what can GW produce" it is "what are consumers willing to spend their money on".