Pathfinder Online vs. Life is Feudal


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

Yes, but I was wondering if the work on the demo was of use to them once they decided to use Unity in Jan '13. Can you simply port art work and such things over?

If you can start to count from right after the first Kickstarter, then things are looking somewhat worse from PFO's viewpoint.

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:

64 connections, not 64 players.

I remember the golden age of NWN. A 64 slots server was CROWDED, by people you never had the chance to actually know.

That's a hugely important distinction a lot of people overlook. Generally the communities for these kind of servers number in the hundreds. Honestly this community barely feels larger than the community I played Freelancer on.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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Tyncale wrote:

There is also the hope that for a Crafter/Trader like me, I can take *calculated* risks in PFO, and try to minimize them till a level that is still fun.

I am not sure if the level of PvP is still a little ( or a lot) on the hard side with the games you mention.

These are key points for me as well. (Substitute bard/writer for crafter/trader, though.) I'm just dipping a toe into the sandbox experience with PFO and that's mainly down to GoblinWorks' explicit commitment not to turn PFO into a murder sim, and their efforts to allow individuals to, as Tyncale puts it, calculate and minimize risk to our taste.

Goblin Squad Member

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Audoucet wrote:
Schedim wrote:

No, I mean on a personal level, if you are as few as 64, a person missing for a week can have great impact. In PFO you I can be missing out and there may always be a lot of other to fill in.

And about the atmo, yeah, I understand that...

64 connections, not 64 players.

I remember the golden age of NWN. A 64 slots server was CROWDED, by people you never had the chance to actually know.

And just like NWN, I'm pretty sure LiF will offer the possibility to link a few servers.

I completely agree with Andius, mono-servers are overrated.

Shards is the game I am keeping an eye on. It seems like finally 10 years later somebody figured out how to make money off the NWN model (it was really easy). A 64 slots shard in theory houses about 300-1000 players and that's really the perfect size for a tight knit community in an online game (no coincidence PFO settlements clock in with similar #'s). LiF is certainly not for me, too much farmville/minecraft elements that don't interest me.

Single shard does have its advantages though, a 64 or 128 slot server is simply incapable of large scale economies or politics that truly feel global. I remember back in my beloved NWN server, whenever we held server wide events half the players base couldn't get in to play it. And war at those #'s doesn't really feel like war, more like a West Side Story turf scrum.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ah, NWN, god what I loved that game. I spent endless hours in Aurora tinker-tink with stuff ... never got anything really produced, but I still having a warm feeling in my stomach thinking of my goblin warren under the dryad glen... mmmmmm ...

Goblinworks Executive Founder

T7V Avari wrote:

Shards is the game I am keeping an eye on. It seems like finally 10 years later somebody figured out how to make money off the NWN model (it was really easy). A 64 slots shard in theory houses about 300-1000 players and that's really the perfect size for a tight knit community in an online game (no coincidence PFO settlements clock in with similar #'s). LiF is certainly not for me, too much farmville/minecraft elements that don't interest me.

Single shard does have its advantages though, a 64 or 128 slot server is simply incapable of large scale economies or politics that truly feel global. I remember back in my beloved NWN server, whenever we held server wide events half the players base couldn't get in to play it. And war at those #'s doesn't really feel like war, more like a West Side Story turf scrum.

About the economy, my NWN servers, the one I made I mean, had a good economy, because I created a new money, without using gold coins, and giving it an actual weight.

Anyway, I am very interested in Shards Online yes, even though after PFO, I will never spend again more than 100$ in promises.

Goblin Squad Member

I hate that LiF used manual aim and twitch gameplay, yuk.

Have you ever watched a Darkfall PvP video? You can't even tell what's going on because they are twitching all over the place. Terrible.


Its not as much twitch as you may think... Nothing like Darkfall

Manual aim on the other hand is much better.

LiF is what I was expecting PFO to be. You actually build your settlement, you actually build your weapons and equipment.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ah ... twitch ... That ended my possibility to play that game as I have the hand-eye coordination of a MBT driven by a drunk sloth... that suffers from dementia

Goblin Squad Member

Schedim wrote:
Ah, NWN, god what I loved that game. I spent endless hours in Aurora tinker-tink with stuff ... never got anything really produced, but I still having a warm feeling in my stomach thinking of my goblin warren under the dryad glen... mmmmmm ...

I still have a NWN module I built. If you still have NWN installed there is a link at the very bottom of my personal web page. Just beware of my midi music there, as it isn't very popular in some circles. Well, almost all circles.

Goblin Squad Member

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Audoucet wrote:


About the economy, my NWN servers, the one I made I mean, had a good economy, because I created a new money, without using gold coins, and giving it an actual weight.

Anyway, I am very interested in Shards Online yes, even though after PFO, I will never spend again more than 100$ in promises.

I'm a bit of an economy buff and alternative currency fan so stuff like that makes me twinkle.

As for Shards, it looks even more bare than PFO at this point to actually play. All of the interesting stuff is back end, not systems the players will use. So while I am keeping an eye on it, I am going to wait until enough spiffy mods are available (steampunk ftw) and I think that's really the point to all of these games. NWN didn't get great until about 3 years of players mods were in. EvE by all accounts wasn't great until 3 years in. Shards will probably not be great for another 3 years and neither will PFO.

The big difference to me and where I think Mr. Steve Jobs of MMO game marketing Ryan Dancey (hardee har har) is going to win the battle is what we do waiting for the game to be great. PFO has already seen alliances made and crumble, rivalries have been made and played out, backstabbing, friends made etc etc. AND THE GAME HASN'T STARTED.

Why is that? Crowdforging. Plain and simple, the empowerment of the player base, however material that empowerment actually is. Throw in a couple gasoline canisters like the Land Rush and you have a game before the game. On the first day of EE there will be a mad rush to touch home base and start gearing up, not to be the first to do it, because there is already something on the line, player pride, which is more important than character husks.

I mean honestly, what the heck are you still doing hanging around Audocet? This is a message board for game that isn't even live and you hate it. The reason is because your emotional investment over the last 2 years far outweighs the economic one you keep crying about. THAT is the advantage of PFO as I see it right now. It's not a case of blinders its a case of having been around the block many, many times and knowing what is actually important for a visceral online experience.

Hint. It's not the grass.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Schedim wrote:
Ah, NWN, god what I loved that game. I spent endless hours in Aurora tinker-tink with stuff ... never got anything really produced, but I still having a warm feeling in my stomach thinking of my goblin warren under the dryad glen... mmmmmm ...
I still have a NWN module I built. If you still have NWN installed there is a link at the very bottom of my personal web page. Just beware of my midi music there, as it isn't very popular in some circles. Well, almost all circles.

I have non installed right now, as my gaming computer gave in years ago and nothing has incited me to cobbel a new one together.

But now I have gone looking in the storage and begun to collect parts.... So one day it will rise again!

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I am still here only because I'm not on any other forums, and it gives me something to do while playing, but you can see that I argue less and less, I don't respond to 90% of the things I would have something to say about. For example, a week ago, I would have argued about what you're saying here, but now, I just don't care.

I found out over the years, that I have more success in letting go of something, if I don't completely cut off from it, but rather just continue to follow it while I slowly lose interest, which is the case, here.

A week ago, I was still angry at people like Ryan. Now, I just don't care about him or PFO. I just don't see the point of it all, and I just can't conceive how people, can "have fun", more than playing Archage or Angry Birds.

Goblin Squad Member

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Audoucet wrote:

I am still here only because I'm not on any other forums, and it gives me something to do while playing, but you can see that I argue less and less, I don't respond to 90% of the things I would have something to say about. For example, a week ago, I would have argued about what you're saying here, but now, I just don't care.

I found out over the years, that I have more success in letting go of something, if I don't completely cut off from it, but rather just continue to follow it while I slowly lose interest, which is the case, here.

A week ago, I was still angry at people like Ryan. Now, I just don't care about him or PFO. I just don't see the point of it all, and I just can't conceive how people, can "have fun", more than playing Archage or Angry Birds.

You dropped of way too early my friend. I think you will come to regret your decision.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:


2. I would rather have the Developers respond to our issues and fix them, than our ideas and give them lip service. I'm not saying that the LiF Devs don't take suggestions, I believe they spend more time fixing bugs and adding content.

Srry Blud but I gotta call BS on this. Nobody has spent more energy on crowdforging these forums than you have over the last 2 years. Nobody has started more threads, pushed an agenda harder or had a bigger singular influence over any game mechanic (SAD's) than you have. So to turn around and say that you personally prefer and respond better to Devs who don't listen to your suggestions and just "give you service dammit" is either BS or utter lack of self awareness.

Or maybe you just hate to admit that Ryan knows how to pull your strings ;p.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

*Shrugs*

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:

I am still here only because I'm not on any other forums, and it gives me something to do while playing, but you can see that I argue less and less, I don't respond to 90% of the things I would have something to say about. For example, a week ago, I would have argued about what you're saying here, but now, I just don't care.

I found out over the years, that I have more success in letting go of something, if I don't completely cut off from it, but rather just continue to follow it while I slowly lose interest, which is the case, here.

A week ago, I was still angry at people like Ryan. Now, I just don't care about him or PFO. I just don't see the point of it all, and I just can't conceive how people, can "have fun", more than playing Archage or Angry Birds.

May you find gaming peace, my friend.

Goblin Squad Member

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T7V Avari wrote:

Or maybe you just hate to admit that Ryan knows how to pull your strings ;p.

What one person might call "string-pulling" another might call "getting jerked around". Semantics, I suppose.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I do, I'm using my 12x class XP on SWTOR, it's cool.

Goblin Squad Member

That is pretty old neat I have to admit. SWTOR has made some good moves recently. May they continue: I have room for more than one game at a time.

Goblin Squad Member

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Schedim wrote:
...I have the hand-eye coordination of a MBT driven by a drunk sloth... that suffers from dementia

My long-lost twin!

Goblin Squad Member

I just looked it up, I think there is 19 month difference between the first code being written for LiF (October 2010 vs June 2012) over PFO. Although, that gap actually might be a bit wider.

If we are going to compare the two games, why not wait? Compare what is in LiF to what we see in OE? I think these two points are much better, than having a huge gap, and saying one game is better over another. The truth is, there are a lot of games better than PFO at the moment, but PFO is attempt to have an MVP, which we all know isn't going to match other games in-depth, yet. So, lets wait and compare them on the amount of time they actually spent working on the game, before comparing.

Also, combat has to be different, because 1) This isn't catering specifically to only hardcore gamers with excellent connections and computers, and 2) Formation Combat will eventually be very very relevant.

Goblin Squad Member

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I have a singular selfish wish that this thread be redirected to a General Paizo forum for discussing "Non Paizo" supported games. It would fit nicely there.

Not because I feel that LIF is a threat. That concern died when I read reviews, comments, and rants by those playing LIF on a few forums.

I do feel that it is a desperate attempt to "force" GW into the "Best Design Course" according to "The Correct Schedule", as layed down by "The Ultimate Authorities in MMO Gaming", who happen to have learned at a young age that they are "Always Right".

<Still Laughing at Youth>

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Schedim wrote:
...I have the hand-eye coordination of a MBT driven by a drunk sloth... that suffers from dementia
My long-lost twin!

Triplets!


Being wrote:
celestialiar wrote:
Please do not question my effort or devotion to *anything.* I am not the developer of PFO. This is not my fault. My words are only words.

I wasn't pointing toward fault, but toward responsibility.

celestialiar wrote:
I believe unless what I suggested was something they could easily program in, they wouldn't do it.

Difficulty will increase cost, but cost can be outweighed by value. That is a central tenet to project management, and the developer is unlikely to dismiss the difficult where there is sufficient promise of value.

celestialiar wrote:

Like I said this is shaping up to be a game that has nothing but players. And they think the players will keep it going. I personally don't. You have to motivate them in some way. Especially considering there are other sandbox MMOs. If this was the only game with TC, then sure it would be a selling point.

Like I said, required reading for your reply is... my...

I daren't make the same requirement of you before you can say something to me. The number of my posts is too great, and the majority of them say something. I confess I tend to attempt humor in too many of the rest.

But if you don't adequately value what you have to contribute ("words are only words"), then should I?

Words are not merely words: words carry meanings. Meanings suggest value. But then I am one of those odd people who believe that opinions are not all alike or of equal value. For me opinion is a human representation of practical truth, a.k.a. 'the Case', and that facts are characteristics of truth. The more an opinion is built from facts, the more like truth that opinion is bound to be.

I have been wandering elsewhere, so late:

Well, it is like this. Imagine I had written a book on a subject and you came up to me on the street and said, "What do you think of..." Some days, I may have responded.

Others, I may have said, "Get the book." Truly, the answers are there.

Especially if I am often on CNN promotion said book. It was not anything but that. I didn't mean in order to converse you had to read my post history. I meant if you want to know what I've said, you can find it. I have said it, manytim.

Goblin Squad Member

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Audoucet wrote:
and I just can't conceive how people, can "have fun", more than playing Archage or Angry Birds.

Queue Ryan saying something to the effect of "people who want to have fun are not really our target audience and we're fine with that."

Goblin Squad Member

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That's strange. I'm still having fun in alpha. I must be doing something wrong. :)

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:
That's strange. I'm still having fun in alpha. I must be doing something wrong. :)

I'm flipping back and forth between enjoying it, and getting impatient for the "real thing" to start. Lately, my impatience has been winning, so it's good to hear that someone's still having a good time.

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
...flipping back and forth between enjoying it, and getting impatient for the "real thing" to start.

The balance tipped for me; I want persistence. I still have fun when I play, but in case there's an unexpectedly limited well of it, I don't want to use any more up.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Papaver wrote:
Queue Ryan saying something to the effect of "people who want to have fun are not really our target audience and we're fine with that."

The game is already a BIG success then.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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The target audience is (I hope) people who have lots of fun making posts like Spreadsheets in Golarion.

(Note: All of the information in the linked post is obsolete, mostly because the generous sharing of the raw data made collecting that information manually inefficient.


As I have actually logged on for a change rather than spectating from a non logged on perspective a couple of points from someone who has more or less decided pathfinder is not a game to bother with currently

Those who are saying MVP is decided by customers not by the company are quite correct. If people come and look and find the game wanting they will not be back, MMO space is too crowded now to get a second chance this is why games like age of conan which launched as a buggy piece of crap haa not been able to recoup subscribers despite being a much better game now than it was then. First impressions count.

Secondly for all those who criticised me for pressing Dancey for details on numbers for mass battle...all I can say is if the game is struggling to cope with the numbers logged on now across a large number of hexes then dont expect epic scale battles anytime soon

Goblin Squad Member

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Given that another 15 months is probably the minimum time before Settlement Warfare is even a thing, I doubt many of us are expecting epic battles within a couple of months of EE...


Nihimon wrote:
Given that another 15 months is probably the minimum time before Settlement Warfare is even a thing, I doubt many of us are expecting epic battles within a couple of months of EE...

You mistook my statement...I am not saying within a month or two of ee, I mean within a couple of years. I personally don't believe there engine is going to support it from everything I am being fed back.

Only reason I am on tonight indeed is to pm all my agents within various companies to let them know that we are no longer believing that pathfinder is for us and offer them support for getting into eve as recompense for their loyalty

Goblin Squad Member

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How deliciously conspiratorial :)


Not conspiratorial at all. If we were coming into this game it would be conspiratorial. However we are unlikely too unless they get there act together. If you think we shouldn't try and help those who volunteered their services then that is your problem. I am merely extending an offer to those involved that they may take up if they wish as thanks for their support.

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
If you think we shouldn't try and help those who volunteered their services then that is your problem.

Hrm... I thought I remembered you being a bit more rational. That's a thoroughly bizarre pseudo-accusation. I actually think it's great that you're taking care of your people, that's a really generous - noble even - thing to do. You're a pretty swell guy.


Nihimon wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
If you think we shouldn't try and help those who volunteered their services then that is your problem.
Hrm... I thought I remembered you being a bit more rational. That's a thoroughly bizarre pseudo-accusation. I actually think it's great that you're taking care of your people, that's a really generous - noble even - thing to do. You're a pretty swell guy.

What else am I to deduce from you aspersion of being conspiratorial?

Perhaps if you phrased yourself better?

Nothing conspiratorial about assisting those that help you in a completely different game as far as I can see. We will take them in, train them in null sec tactics if they want to give it a go *shrugs* not sure why you think its a big deal and frankly I thought you would be glad to see the back of me

Goblin Squad Member

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Just casually browsing here. My take on this little "micro drama in the making" was that Nihimon was being friendly in a kind of "hey, long time no see" way.

Clearly, Steelwing, you have the right of it. Thanks for opening my eyes.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I believe "conspiratorial" was a reference to the somewhat veiled reference to your having placed spies in various companies before the game even started, not to the fact that you offered your spies some help getting established in EVE.

I did not get the feeling that Nihimon disapproved of your offer to help your spies. To me, he seemed more amused at the idea of infiltrating companies during Alpha.

Goblin Squad Member

No, it's understandable. I should have quoted the part I was referencing.

Steelwing wrote:
... all my agents within various companies...

Sorry for the confusion, I'm sure it's an easy mistake to make.


Bringslite wrote:

Just casually browsing here. My take on this little "micro drama in the making" was that Nihimon was being friendly in a kind of "hey, long time no see" way.

Clearly, Steelwing, you have the right of it. Thanks for opening my eyes.

You may well be right and I was reading too much into it :) As I have noted before I don't do empathy well so sometimes get the wrong message. A cross I have to live with unfortunately and it sometimes makes my responses inappropriate. Should I have got it wrong I apologise unreservedly.

@Karlbob

I didn't imfiltrate spies I had people offering. some I accepted some I turned down

Goblin Squad Member

Still nice to see you around again, Steelwing. Even if it is to pull out the troops. Check back later. The game may have improved to a level that is acceptable for you and yours. ;)


Bringslite wrote:
Still nice to see you around again, Steelwing. Even if it is to pull out the troops. Check back later. The game may have improved to a level that is acceptable for you and yours. ;)

I will be keeping an eye out and if the game becomes on I can recommend I shall do so. I am basing my opinion currently merely on feedback. I shall no doubt try it myself at some point before writing it off however I shall wait till much later to do so.

Goblin Squad Member

Steelwing wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
Still nice to see you around again, Steelwing. Even if it is to pull out the troops. Check back later. The game may have improved to a level that is acceptable for you and yours. ;)
I will be keeping an eye out and if the game becomes on I can recommend I shall do so. I am basing my opinion currently merely on feedback. I shall no doubt try it myself at some point before writing it off however I shall wait till much later to do so.

Not gonna sugar coat things. It is barebones stuff right now. Pretty much as they described it would be. I think that some are shocked by this and waiting or moving on. It seems almost spot on as described, though I admit a little behind schedule. That is not rare in game developement. Still there is enough in to have some meaningful fun if PVP is not ALL you care about.

I wish I had an invite left. I would offer it to you to try stuff out.


Bringslite wrote:
Steelwing wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
Still nice to see you around again, Steelwing. Even if it is to pull out the troops. Check back later. The game may have improved to a level that is acceptable for you and yours. ;)
I will be keeping an eye out and if the game becomes on I can recommend I shall do so. I am basing my opinion currently merely on feedback. I shall no doubt try it myself at some point before writing it off however I shall wait till much later to do so.

Not gonna sugar coat things. It is barebones stuff right now. Pretty much as they described it would be. I think that some are shocked by this and waiting or moving on. It seems almost spot on as described, though I admit a little behind schedule. That is not rare in game developement. Still there is enough in to have some meaningful fun if PVP is not ALL you care about.

I wish I had an invite left. I would offer it to you to try stuff out.

I have already been offered invites and declined. The reason being that if I saw in the state described to me I would probably not come back.

I will wait a bit instead and see if Dancey can pull a rabbit out of that hat.

What I want to se
1) settlement in and working
2) battles consisting of at least 200 a side
3) player looting
4) how threading works (*hint here if too much can be threaded it impacts negatively on a player driven economy)

Call me fussy if you like but all these to me are Miminum Viable Product till I can say to my corp hey there is this other game perhaps we should take a look and not get people coming back and telling me "why did you recommend this?"

Goblin Squad Member

Deianira wrote:
T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Schedim wrote:
...I have the hand-eye coordination of a MBT driven by a drunk sloth... that suffers from dementia
My long-lost twin!

Triplets!

Toss in Bi-polar and Arthritis and I'm in!


Summersnow wrote:
Deianira wrote:
T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Schedim wrote:
...I have the hand-eye coordination of a MBT driven by a drunk sloth... that suffers from dementia
My long-lost twin!

Triplets!

Toss in Bi-polar and Arthritis and I'm in!

Is there anyone full able and mentally stable looking at this game I sometimes wonder by the litany of ailments:) Speaking as an hfa myself

Goblin Squad Member

Deianira wrote:
T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Schedim wrote:
...I have the hand-eye coordination of a MBT driven by a drunk sloth... that suffers from dementia
My long-lost twin!

Triplets!

quadruplets :D

Goblin Squad Member

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I think half the board doesn't have outstanding coordination, and that's part of why PFO is so appealing: same big sandbox style game, but with a targeting system that's more user friendly for them.

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