Cthulhu's unspeakable presence question.


Rules Questions

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FLite wrote:
PS: the idea that you can just casually convince what is basically a uber succubus to mark you, place her pact upon you, and then *NOT EXPLOIT THIS IN ANY WAY* says that you expect your GM to basically play the monsters as moveable stat blocks that you get to line up and knock down.

Call it, bind it, knock it unconscious once you have the pact via casting Flesh to Stone. It's unconscious per the spell, so the pact still functions and it can't take the boost off you.

If you're desperate to avoid the Blood Reservoir, replace it with +6 inherent from the orc or abyssal bloodline (Improved Eldritch Heritage will get the ability for you, and the +6 will be online at 19th level) and be an angelkin aasimar (+2 racial to STR). So you end up with:

10 (base) + 2 (racial) + 6 (inherent; bloodline) + 6 (enhancement; item) + 10 (morale; Blood Rage) + 10 (size; Form of the Dragon III) + 4 (profane; Profane Pact) + 6 (effective, via the Ring of Inner Fortitude) = 54 STR.

If the lilitu worries you because it's kind of powerful (I don't see why it would, since to a 19th to 20th level full caster it's a joke), then just use a succubus for the profane gift instead. It's only +2, but that's enough to get you over the line to 52, and if you can't keep a succubus under control at this point then you don't deserve to be a wizard.

If the GM is really permissive and/or you've been in WotR, snag Arueshalae's +2 sacred boost from Anarchic Gift. "I need your help to fight an unspeakable horror from the dawn of time, Desna would approve of defeating it because she fights against the Dark Tapestry, and you can take your gift back once it's defeated if you like."

If he isn't and it turns out that you don't deserve to be a wizard, a one-level dip in Alchemist will get you mutagens that grant a +4 alchemical bonus instead.


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I'm sorry man, a lot of your solutions, or even creative approaches to these problems, require you to have a spineless GM. The kind of stuff that gets posted about this is violating the spirit of the game for niggling rules-lawyering of the worst kind, intentionally to make the game as little fun as possible for anyone but yourself, it seems.


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That is literally how Simulacrum and Explosive Runes work. Have Dazing spell and Gate become exploits now as well? This is just what high level casters do. And again this is before we even consider that an Astral Projection has copies of consumables. That would get out of hand fast...


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Anzyr wrote:
That is literally how Simulacrum and Explosive Runes work. Have Dazing spell and Gate become exploits now as well? This is just what high level casters do. And again this is before we even consider that an Astral Projection has copies of consumables. That would get out of hand fast...

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Walter Sobchack.


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Dude, if you really go down that path, then like I said in the other thread, as your GM, I'd do the same thing to you. Only, as the GM, I effectively have infinite resources, and can show you, in detail, why exactly nobody in the game world is willing to do what you're suggesting here, as everyone else who has had the brains, time, and power (and in any world you run in, there's always at least a double handful of them, not even including demigods and the like) hasn't done it.

At best they don't because the recognize the incredible arrogance and risk of backfiring of this idea. At worst they can see how a single instance of doing this would cause everyone else who is capable of doing so to view you as a threat, and summarily deal with you.

Yes, it's heavy-handed, unfair, and very railroady.

What's your point?


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Go down what path? The path of playing a spellcaster as they are intended to be played? Since when is dazing spell and gate anything new? Have you ever even played a game past level 15? Sure you can throw enemy casters that use similar tactics, thats fine. Just be prepared to obviate any martials in the campaign.


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I'm going to point out a few things. So you're fighting Cthulhu and you drop 600 pieces of paper with exploding runes on them and since both you and Cthulu are in the air they fall so he's out of your range, second the exploding runes only have a 50% chance of hitting him unless of course they have true seeing...


The summon has a readied action to detonate them once times resume. And that readied action is "Greater Dispel once the Explosive Runes are by Cthulhu." And I'm ok with a 50% miss chance. There is no kill like overkill so drop enough explosive runes to make sure that even once 60% of them miss he's quite dead.


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I think we've established pretty well that Schrodinger's Wizard can trivially defeat any monster whose stats are known, in a preplanned engagement, in an empty field. In an actual game, however, an Explosive Runes bomb is a Hail Mary play because:

1. Information. Legend Lore reveals only "legends," and when you're starting with next to nothing, it takes 2d6 weeks just to get information that is "vague and incomplete." Other forms of information gathering are also limited. How much you know depends on exactly how you choose to proceed, but the minimum would likely be the name of the beastie (not "Cthulhu" but something I made up for this campaign. "Hector" perhaps.), the fact that it's extremely resistant to magic, a few other things it's resistant or immune to, and the fact that it has an aura that spreads terror and madness. Under no circumstances would you know the full list of immunities and resistances, its SR or hp, the exact range or DC of the aura, or anything else that is "game speak."

2. Attrition pt. 1. For 1-2 months before Cthu... I mean Hector arrives you'll be fighting a pretty intense war against Hector cultists, several of which are also god wizards. If you've ever used an Explosive Runes bomb before, they'll make a concerted effort to find and destroy your stash (which might give you a clue that it's useful). You'll also have to deal with various natural disasters of moderate intensity. Divination of any kind will start becoming less reliable, and your cleric friend tells you that attempts to get information from the gods aren't working very well either, as if they're afraid to even mention the name "Hector."

3. Attrition pt. 2. For 2-3 days before Hector arrives, the cultists will be joined by Starspawn and various other horrors that you'll have to deal with. Natural disasters are more frequent and more powerful. Magic starts to be unreliable; a couple of spells you cast have unexpected and disturbing effects. Even getting enough rest to stay on your feet during this period will be difficult.

4. Attrition pt. 3. You find out when and where the cultists are trying to open the door for Hector and have just barely enough time to get there. If you manage to stop them, pat yourself on the back; you won't need those Explosive Runes. In the more likely event that they're able to complete the ritual, Hector arrives. If you guess right that Explosive Runes will stop him, and if you can manage to deliver the attack, and if your magic is working well enough in the midst of reality breaking down, you just might be able to defeat Hector. If not, I hope you have a Plan B.

5. The Final Twist. Once Hector is defeated, the surviving cultists break out in rejoicing. Upon questioning, they reveal that the destruction of the harbinger (Hector) has started the countdown to the arrival of the Dread One Himself - Hector's Boss, and the collapse of the entire multiverse into primordial chaos. This will happen in three days. Good luck!


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How do you command the summoned during the time stop? Do you tell him after time resumes? I hope he's immune to death effects and or gets a nat 20. And just as a reminder you can't target him before time resumes you seem to have forgotten that earlier with your greater heroism post.


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You summon it in advance and give it Heroism. We covered this.

Grand Lodge

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Xavier, I assume Anzyr is planning on hitting him while he is on the ground or using a boat. Not utterly uncommon as Cthulhu is often depicted arising from the water and crawling onto land before taking flight. (At least in the post lovecraft gaming depictions.)

Miss chances don't typically apply to area effect attacks.

Anzyr. Well, I think I would describe the path you have been advocating as "carelessly meddling in forces far beyond their control, confident that their magic and superior intellect will protect them."

So yeah. Pretty much how post level 15 spellcasters are meant to be played :)

Where we differ, is that in the games I have ever been involved in that reached that level (or in some cases started there) there are consequences to that sort of hubris.

By the way, Demons powers do scale by hit dice. Demons progress from form to form, eventually becoming Demon lords, as they gain hit dice (and experience, and evil). And their powers advance in kind. That is part of the lore of pathfinder.

So in much the same way as if you simulacrum a 20th level paladin, he would only have the powers of a level 10 paladin, if you simulacrum a 30 hd demon, he only has the powers of a 15 hd demon (or closest equivalent type.)

(Which raises an interesting question. If you simulacrum a paladin and have him commit an evil act, does the simulacrum "fall from grace.")


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Oh man. This thread has had me laughing so hard I've been getting funny looks from my co-workers.

After having read the entire thing I feel I can summerise foe the TL:DR crowd.

1) OP asks question that is derailed and completely forgotten
2) anzyr displays a level of exploitative system mastery that would make azmodeus proud
3) some posters argue against the 'bad' exploiting and some defend it.
4) thread devolves into an "you can" vs "but should you" debate of the rules.

While I'm sure some people are impressed with the depth of Anzyr's rules knowledge others will be less impressed. I myself fall into the group that feels it's about as useful as most magic tricks. Pretty but pointless.

I'm left with the feeling that some sort of validation is being sought on both sides. It'll cost nothing so here goes;

Pro system mastery crowd - congrats y'all on finding the loopholes in a very leaky game system. You all win RPGs. High fives and buttslaps all round. But now the game is over what will you spend all your time on?

Pro "a good GM wouldn't allow that exploiting" crowd - They are technically right but that's ok cause we'll be enjoying our RPGs the "right" way with "good" GMing.

Now you can all stop sniping each other and turn on that bastard that is mocking you both... Let the hating commence! :)


JoeJ wrote:

I think we've established pretty well that Schrodinger's Wizard can trivially defeat any monster whose stats are known, in a preplanned engagement, in an empty field. In an actual game, however, an Explosive Runes bomb is a Hail Mary play because:

Uh, none if this Schrodingers. It's like 3 common spells. Or just having Dazing Metamagic. Seriously Wish covers many a gap... This pretty ho-hum stuff here.

JoeJ wrote:

I think we've established pretty well that Schrodinger's Wizard can trivially defeat any monster whose stats are known, in a preplanned engagement, in an empty field. In an actual game, however, an Explosive Runes bomb is a Hail Mary play because:

1. Information. Legend Lore reveals only "legends," and when you're starting with next to nothing, it takes 2d6 weeks just to get information that is "vague and incomplete." Other forms of information gathering are also limited. How much you know depends on exactly how you choose to proceed, but the minimum would likely be the name of the beastie (not "Cthulhu" but something I made up for this campaign. "Hector" perhaps.), the fact that it's extremely resistant to magic, a few other things it's resistant or immune to, and the fact that it has an aura that spreads terror and madness. Under no circumstances would you know the full list of immunities and resistances, its SR or hp, the exact range or DC of the aura, or anything else that is "game speak."

This only take 18 seconds. IF you don't know why, go reread the thread, as I don't feel like continuously spoon-feeding information that has been covered.

JoeJ wrote:

Attrition pt. 1. For 1-2 months before Cthu... I mean Hector arrives you'll be fighting a pretty intense war against Hector cultists, several of which are also god wizards. If you've ever used an Explosive Runes bomb before, they'll make a concerted effort to find and destroy your stash (which might give you a clue that it's useful). You'll also have to deal with various natural disasters of moderate intensity. Divination of any kind will start becoming less reliable, and your cleric friend tells you that attempts to get information from the gods aren't working very well either, as if they're afraid to even mention the name "Hector."

They'll all be dead about 2 minutes after I spend the 18 seconds getting all the legends. If you can kill Cthulhu a bunch of wanna-bes are nothing.

JoeJ wrote:

Attrition pt. 2

See part 1. There's nothing in Cthulhu's description that magic doesn't function properly, so this is kind of a wash.

JoeJ wrote:

Attrition pt. 3.

See part 1. Though chances are that ya, those cultists will be long dead before Cthulhu needs dealt with.

JoeJ wrote:
The Final Twist. Once Hector is defeated, the surviving cultists break out in rejoicing. Upon questioning, they reveal that the destruction of the harbinger (Hector) has started the countdown to the arrival of the Dread One Himself - Hector's Boss, and the collapse of the entire multiverse into primordial chaos. This will happen in three days. Good luck!

Good maybe his boss will give more XP.


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Anzyr wrote:
Tarkeighas wrote:


2) anzyr displays a level of exploitative system mastery that would make azmodeus proud
Hardly, this is like... 8th grade system mastery, in my honest opinion. Not even College track stuff. If people find it impressive, it's not that I'm standing to high, it's that they're standing to low.

They have grades?!! Boy did I ever go to the wrong school. I only learned boring sums and stuff.

*Edit*
Way to burn your supporters! I love a bloke who's willing to slap the faces of his opponents and friends alike. I'm not sure why you deleted your post though. Have some conviction man!


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Anzyr wrote:
Go down what path? The path of playing a spellcaster as they are intended to be played? Since when is dazing spell and gate anything new? Have you ever even played a game past level 15? Sure you can throw enemy casters that use similar tactics, thats fine. Just be prepared to obviate any martials in the campaign.

I've played games that went all the way to level 80. I have been playing D&D since 1987. Yes, Dazing Spell is exploitative as Hell, should never have seen print, and is disgusting. Gate is an entire can of worms unto itself.

As for obviating martials, you've already done that, I'm just making the universe burn at this point. Your demiplane, and you, are simply the first targets.


Killed the thread...

Guys? Was it something I said?


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Anzyr wrote:
JoeJ wrote:

1. Information. Legend Lore reveals only "legends," and when you're starting with next to nothing, it takes 2d6 weeks just to get information that is "vague and incomplete." Other forms of information gathering are also limited. How much you know depends on exactly how you choose to proceed, but the minimum would likely be the name of the beastie (not "Cthulhu" but something I made up for this campaign. "Hector" perhaps.), the fact that it's extremely resistant to magic, a few other things it's resistant or immune to, and the fact that it has an aura that spreads terror and madness. Under no circumstances would you know the full list of immunities and resistances, its SR or hp, the exact range or DC of the aura, or anything else that is "game speak."

This only take 18 seconds. IF you don't know why, go reread the thread, as I don't feel like continuously spoon-feeding information that has been covered.

No, it would take 2d6 weeks. And if you can somehow find that much time, you'll still get only "vague and incomplete" information.

Anzyr wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
Attrition pt. 1. For 1-2 months before Cthu... I mean Hector arrives you'll be fighting a pretty intense war against Hector cultists, several of which are also god wizards. If you've ever used an Explosive Runes bomb before, they'll make a concerted effort to find and destroy your stash (which might give you a clue that it's useful). You'll also have to deal with various natural disasters of moderate intensity. Divination of any kind will start becoming less reliable, and your cleric friend tells you that attempts to get information from the gods aren't working very well either, as if they're afraid to even mention the name "Hector."
They'll all be dead about 2 minutes after I spend the 18 seconds getting all the legends. If you can kill Cthulhu a bunch of wanna-bes are nothing.

Good luck with that. I quote: "And even if casters are killed it's not like they die. That would be silly. Dying when you are killed is for chumps. My casters consider dying eight times before breakfast a minor inconvenience."

So you've managed to give them a minor inconvenience. Congratulations.

Anzyr wrote:
See part 1. There's nothing in Cthulhu's description that magic doesn't function properly, so this is kind of a wash.

So? Who said anything about Cthulhu? This is Hector.

Anzyr wrote:
See part 1. Though chances are that ya, those cultists will be long dead before Cthulhu needs dealt with.

You probably won't have killed them any more often than they'll have killed you. Dying is a minor inconvenience, remember?


JoeJ wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
JoeJ wrote:

1. Information. Legend Lore reveals only "legends," and when you're starting with next to nothing, it takes 2d6 weeks just to get information that is "vague and incomplete." Other forms of information gathering are also limited. How much you know depends on exactly how you choose to proceed, but the minimum would likely be the name of the beastie (not "Cthulhu" but something I made up for this campaign. "Hector" perhaps.), the fact that it's extremely resistant to magic, a few other things it's resistant or immune to, and the fact that it has an aura that spreads terror and madness. Under no circumstances would you know the full list of immunities and resistances, its SR or hp, the exact range or DC of the aura, or anything else that is "game speak."

This only take 18 seconds. IF you don't know why, go reread the thread, as I don't feel like continuously spoon-feeding information that has been covered.

No, it would take 2d6 weeks. And if you can somehow find that much time, you'll still get only "vague and incomplete" information.

Anzyr wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
Attrition pt. 1. For 1-2 months before Cthu... I mean Hector arrives you'll be fighting a pretty intense war against Hector cultists, several of which are also god wizards. If you've ever used an Explosive Runes bomb before, they'll make a concerted effort to find and destroy your stash (which might give you a clue that it's useful). You'll also have to deal with various natural disasters of moderate intensity. Divination of any kind will start becoming less reliable, and your cleric friend tells you that attempts to get information from the gods aren't working very well either, as if they're afraid to even mention the name "Hector."
They'll all be dead about 2 minutes after I spend the 18 seconds getting all the legends. If you can kill Cthulhu a bunch of wanna-bes are nothing.
Good luck with that. I quote: "And even if casters are killed it's not like they die. That...

This aptly demonstrates that you haven't been paying attention. Since if you don't know how getting all of Cthulhu's legends only take 18 seconds, there's no point in further discussion. Also, made up nonsense is just that. Made up nonsense. Congratulations you can make up nonsense?


Tarkeighas wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Tarkeighas wrote:


2) anzyr displays a level of exploitative system mastery that would make azmodeus proud
Hardly, this is like... 8th grade system mastery, in my honest opinion. Not even College track stuff. If people find it impressive, it's not that I'm standing to high, it's that they're standing to low.

They have grades?!! Boy did I ever go to the wrong school. I only learned boring sums and stuff.

*Edit*
Way to burn your supporters! I love a bloke who's willing to slap the faces of his opponents and friends alike. I'm not sure why you deleted your post though. Have some conviction man!

I didn't want anyone to misconstrue that as personal attack. But no really this isn't impressive system mastery, this is very basic stuff. Core only basic stuff. I can't imagine that anyone at all would find it impressive. I don't think anyone who is supporting me considers this particularly impressive though so...


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Anzyr wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Tarkeighas wrote:


2) anzyr displays a level of exploitative system mastery that would make azmodeus proud
Hardly, this is like... 8th grade system mastery, in my honest opinion. Not even College track stuff. If people find it impressive, it's not that I'm standing to high, it's that they're standing to low.
I didn't want anyone to misconstrue that as personal attack. But no really this isn't impressive system mastery, this is very basic stuff. Core only basic stuff. I can't imagine that anyone at all would find it impressive. I don't think anyone who is supporting me considers this particularly impressive though so...

No need for false modesty now Anzyr. You've blown away all opposition to your arguments on a rules basis. Now they are just arguing that winning RPGs isn't the right way to play. They are just coming at you with "made up nonsense" now.

Seriously guys. Fantasy role playing games is not the place for made up nonsense.

Rules are all that matters or there wouldn't be any rule books.

*Edit* because I lack sufficient system mastery of forum posting structure

Grand Lodge

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Umm... 18 seconds. 3 wishes. 150 str points. A rare spell written for an NPC from a book most GMs won't own, A binding to a simulacrum of a Demon Lord, and a trip to R'yleh, Cthulhu's door step. The second legend lore does not let you do the third anywhere *except* the target's presence or home.

This will be somewhat difficult, since at this point R'yleh will not actually have risen. So it since it is a prison to hold a transdimensional horror, "not Risen" may mean "does not exist in this reality"


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Come on FLite. Using rules against Anzyr won't end well.

I'm sure there's a perfectly rules legal way to have a 150+ Strength, or some other little known method of circumventing it. After all, this is basic, non impressive system mastery stuff here.


I don't think 150+ is possible in PF off the top of my head, at least without some serious dumpster-diving for sources and liberal application of fondue. I can stretch to STR 100 without too much trouble, but past that it'd be increasingly difficult to find things to stack on:

18 (base) + 2 (race; angelkin) + 4 (race; double alternate ability of +2 STR) + 5 (level) + 8 (inherent; blood reservoir) + 6 (enhancement; item) + 10 (morale; blood rage) + 14 (size; mythic augmented form of the dragon III) + 12 (mythic) + 6 (alchemist; ragechemist mutagen) + 6 (profane; profane ascension) + 4 (sacred; bracers of might) + 6 (effective with Ring of Inner Fortitude) = STR 101.

Because of the ring applying each time, it's technically giving you +12 if you buff all the way up and then cast two spells in a row.

All up, you need a 2-level dip in Ragechemist, 20 character levels, 10 mythic tiers, the right racial alternates and Nocticula's profane ascension, among other things. Past that I'm rapidly running out of stuff that I can recall offhand. You could try replacing some of the lower boosts with custom magic items, but that would only work in a few situations. For example, a custom magic item that grants +6 STR as a sacred bonus is plausible (another +2), as would be one that provides a circumstance or luck bonus (another +12, taken in tandem, and bringing you up to STR 115). But past that it kind of breaks down (e.g. a "+6 dodge bonus to STR" sounds patently ridiculous).

Grand Lodge

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well, technically he is taking 51 damage 3 times and having allies cast heal on him in between.


FLite wrote:
well, technically he is taking 51 damage 3 times and having allies cast heal on him in between.

That's the sensible way to go about it. I was answering the "can you get 150+ STR" assertion.

Grand Lodge

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well, the discussion on the other thread involved first going out and souljaring something with at least 30-40 strength.

Of course that means you are taking that body to R'yleh, and trusting your defences back home to keep any demon lords you may have pissed off by making copies of them from interfering with the boody you left behind...

Grand Lodge

High level full casters are broken, and can easily kill anything with stats given a day to prepare. High level play is not balanced, and trying to make it seem like it is is worse than pointless. The only reason the wizard in your high level game isn't ending every single encounter before the rest of the party can do anything is because he's a nice guy and wants everyone to have a chance to play the game. Getting all mad about this fact is just working yourself into a froth over nothing. It's how the rules work, and nothing's changing that.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Gotta say that's not true for everybody. Played in quite a few high level games, and yeah, the spellcasters are powerful, they're supposed to be. But they're not single handedly doing all the adventuring, sure they can end a few fights right away, but then we have more fights. My DM's in the past have been very against the whole 15 minute adventure day, you give the enemies an 8 hour break from the assault, and bad things happen.

In essence, That's not how "how the rules work" that's just how it's been for you..


Squeakmaan wrote:

Gotta say that's not true for everybody. Played in quite a few high level games, and yeah, the spellcasters are powerful, they're supposed to be. But they're not single handedly doing all the adventuring, sure they can end a few fights right away, but then we have more fights. My DM's in the past have been very against the whole 15 minute adventure day, you give the enemies an 8 hour break from the assault, and bad things happen.

In essence, That's not how "how the rules work" that's just how it's been for you..

15 minutes of adventure? Killing Cthulhu doesn't take that many spell slots, should be good for at least another hour. Also, at high levels you don't give the enemy a break of 8 hours. You give them a break of 4 hours (really 4.5 if you want to actually prepare spells), thanks to a fast time demiplane, or 1 hour if you Nap Stack. High level casters are stilling on over 20 high level spells and over 60 total spells. They aren't running out of spells before people are out of hp.


Still trying to make sense of it all.

To kill Cthulhu:
- Prepare in advance tons of Explosive Runes
- Know where Cthulhu is.
- Summon Nalfeshnee (so are we assuming an evil caster to match the alignment?)
- Buff Nalfeshnee with Greater Heroism
- Report Nalfeshnee next to Cthulhu (likely auto-staggered by Unspeakable Presence)
- Nalfeshnee uses single to *fail* greater dispel runes.
- Force Nuke, 10ft radius crater with Cthulhu now a puff of otherworldly vapor.

Question:

How do you teleport the Nalfeshnee?

Being a summoned creature, the Nalfeshnee's teleport/dimensional powers are disabled, and if the wizard casts teleport, he *has* to follow to ground zero. Which from his POV is a bad idea.


You don't teleport directly to Cthulhu's location, you teleport out a bit, summon it and then go start combat. Alternatively you could call a Nalfeshnee with Planar Binding prior to. Which would save you a spell slot.

Also, "know where Cthulhu" is sort of seems like a given.


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Anzyr wrote:

You don't teleport directly to Cthulhu's location, you teleport out a bit, summon it and then go start combat. Alternatively you could call a Nalfeshnee with Planar Binding prior to. Which would save you a spell slot.

Also, "know where Cthulhu" is sort of seems like a given.

Oh, then Cthulu's Combat Reflexes kick in, he AoOs the Nalfeshnee (whose untrained acrobatics cannot beat Cthulu's CMD of 97), then grabs the Nalfeshnee 35' away with his CMB of 62 verses the Nalfeshnee's 45. All Cthulu needs to do is not roll a 1 twice in a row.

Explosive Runes do nothing 35' away.

Planar Binding means you have to talk a Nalfeshnee into choosing to suicide for reals. Good luck with that: "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to."


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Anzyr wrote:
This aptly demonstrates that you haven't been paying attention. Since if you don't know how getting all of Cthulhu's legends only take 18 seconds, there's no point in further discussion. Also, made up nonsense is just that. Made up nonsense. Congratulations you can make up nonsense?

Don't blame me, I didn't write the spell description. It's very clear: 2d6 weeks. You don't get to reduce that by player fiat.


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FLite wrote:

Umm... 18 seconds. 3 wishes. 150 str points. A rare spell written for an NPC from a book most GMs won't own, A binding to a simulacrum of a Demon Lord, and a trip to R'yleh, Cthulhu's door step. The second legend lore does not let you do the third anywhere *except* the target's presence or home.

This will be somewhat difficult, since at this point R'yleh will not actually have risen. So it since it is a prison to hold a transdimensional horror, "not Risen" may mean "does not exist in this reality"

Nothing in the description of Wish says that you can use it to reduce the casting time of a spell. In the case of Legend Lore, since there's no DC to raise, the only effect of using Wish is that it costs a lot more. You'd be much better off just casting Legend Lore.


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Maybe it goes something like this?

Wizard: I wish I knew everything about Cthulhu.
GM: Really?
Wizard: No, wait... *brain fried*


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Simon Legrande wrote:

Maybe it goes something like this?

Wizard: I wish I knew everything about Cthulhu.
GM: Really?
Wizard: No, wait... *brain fried*

LOL! That would be appropriate.

The spell description for Wish says that it can "Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools." (emphasis mine) which is how you'd be using it to Legend Lore.

"Duplicate: v. 1. To make an identical copy of. 2. To double; make twofold. 3. To make or perform again; repeat." - American Heritage Dictionary.

Notice that spell description doesn't read, "duplicate except for the aspects you want to change." There are two specific changes spelled out in the text; save DCs are for a 9th level spell, and you only need material components that cost more than 10,000 gp. In every other way you duplicate the spell, which includes duplicating the casting time.

This is RAW. Given that long casting times are added to only a few spells as a balancing factor, it's a good bet that it's RAI as well.

If you want to use Wish to do anything more than this - like casting Legend Lore in 1 action - the part about greater effects applies. "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)"

Attempting to use a Wish to cast Legend Lore three times in 18 seconds specifically requires "GM discretion." And since limiting information is an important part of making this adventure fun and a challenge for everybody, the GM will use his or her discretion in a way that maintains that.


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JoeJ wrote:
FLite wrote:

Umm... 18 seconds. 3 wishes. 150 str points. A rare spell written for an NPC from a book most GMs won't own, A binding to a simulacrum of a Demon Lord, and a trip to R'yleh, Cthulhu's door step. The second legend lore does not let you do the third anywhere *except* the target's presence or home.

This will be somewhat difficult, since at this point R'yleh will not actually have risen. So it since it is a prison to hold a transdimensional horror, "not Risen" may mean "does not exist in this reality"

Nothing in the description of Wish says that you can use it to reduce the casting time of a spell. In the case of Legend Lore, since there's no DC to raise, the only effect of using Wish is that it costs a lot more. You'd be much better off just casting Legend Lore.

Wish duplicates a spell. It has a casting time of 1 standard action. Did you read it? Cause it totally does. It is not greater effects apply it is well within the safe limits of the spell. The effect of Wish is duplicate spell (in this case Legend Lore) in 1 standard action, that's literally *what the spell does*. Wish reducing casting time to a standard action is RAW.

@ Akerlof - The Nalfeshnee is never in range. Please actually read the strategy before commenting. Otherwise you make comments that make no sense. Since Cthulhu's reach not is the same as Greater Dispel Magic's minimum range even.


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Anzyr wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
FLite wrote:

Umm... 18 seconds. 3 wishes. 150 str points. A rare spell written for an NPC from a book most GMs won't own, A binding to a simulacrum of a Demon Lord, and a trip to R'yleh, Cthulhu's door step. The second legend lore does not let you do the third anywhere *except* the target's presence or home.

This will be somewhat difficult, since at this point R'yleh will not actually have risen. So it since it is a prison to hold a transdimensional horror, "not Risen" may mean "does not exist in this reality"

Nothing in the description of Wish says that you can use it to reduce the casting time of a spell. In the case of Legend Lore, since there's no DC to raise, the only effect of using Wish is that it costs a lot more. You'd be much better off just casting Legend Lore.

Wish duplicates a spell. It has a casting time of 1 standard action. Did you read it? Cause it totally does. It is not greater effects apply it is well within the safe limits of the spell. Wish reducing casting time to a standard action is RAW.

As I explained in my last post, RAW it doesn't reduce the casting time of a spell it duplicates. It's not "duplicates except for the aspects I don't like."


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Couple of problem with the explosive runes.
First is one of Cthulhu abilities is that he is non euclidran which means they have a 50% chance of missing. And since Explosive rune have to be placed near Cthulhu you are going to use magic to place the runes as I dont see anyone getting with in 10 feet of Cthulhu without a major beat down. And I would rule its an All or nothing. so either all your runes all hit or they all miss. And even then they will not be close enough that Cthulhu does not get a saving throw.
Also Cthulhu has an Int of 31 and has lived a long time so he should be played smart, not like a dimwitted Zombie. And he is a God to a host of nasty and powerful races, which means the FIRST time you knock Cthulhu down he going to be prepared for that trick the second time.How hard would it be for Cthulhu to get his minions to make a few tentacle rings to protect him from explosive runes. I would not be surprised if he has a few stuck in his sock drawer just in case.
Also 20 level characters are forces of Nature and the Big Bad guys are going to keep an eye on them. There a VERY GOOD chance on of Cthulhu minions will brief him on the favorite tactics and equipment of all 20 levels in the next 1000 miles


JoeJ wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
FLite wrote:

Umm... 18 seconds. 3 wishes. 150 str points. A rare spell written for an NPC from a book most GMs won't own, A binding to a simulacrum of a Demon Lord, and a trip to R'yleh, Cthulhu's door step. The second legend lore does not let you do the third anywhere *except* the target's presence or home.

This will be somewhat difficult, since at this point R'yleh will not actually have risen. So it since it is a prison to hold a transdimensional horror, "not Risen" may mean "does not exist in this reality"

Nothing in the description of Wish says that you can use it to reduce the casting time of a spell. In the case of Legend Lore, since there's no DC to raise, the only effect of using Wish is that it costs a lot more. You'd be much better off just casting Legend Lore.

Wish duplicates a spell. It has a casting time of 1 standard action. Did you read it? Cause it totally does. It is not greater effects apply it is well within the safe limits of the spell. Wish reducing casting time to a standard action is RAW.

As I explained in my last post, RAW it doesn't reduce the casting time of a spell it duplicates. It's not "duplicates except for the aspects I don't like."

Wish has it's own casting time. The effect of it is that it duplicates the spell. It doesn't duplicate Legend Lore's casting time because it has it's own. Note that for virtually every other category including range, target, effect, area, duration, and saving throw (but not SR) it says "See Text". You know what you don't see the text for. Casting time.


Degoon Squad wrote:

Couple of problem with the explosive runes.

First is one of Cthulhu abilities is that he is non euclidran which means they have a 50% chance of missing. And since Explosive rune have to be placed near Cthulhu you are going to use magic to place the runes as I dont see anyone getting with in 10 feet of Cthulhu without a major beat down. And I would rule its an All or nothing. so either all your runes all hit or they all miss. And even then they will not be close enough that Cthulhu does not get a saving throw.
Also Cthulhu has an Int of 31 and has lived a long time so he should be played smart, not like a dimwitted Zombie. And he is a God to a host of nasty and powerful races, which means the FIRST time you knock Cthulhu down he going to be prepared for that trick the second time.How hard would it be for Cthulhu to get his minions to make a few tentacle rings to protect him from explosive runes. I would not be surprised if he has a few stuck in his sock drawer just in case.
Also 20 level characters are forces of Nature and the Big Bad guys are going to keep an eye on them. There a VERY GOOD chance on of Cthulhu minions will brief him on the favorite tactics and equipment of all 20 levels in the next 1000 miles

Reading is tech. You approach while Time is Stopped via the aptly name Time Stop. You would rule it is all of nothing, but that's not how the rules of the game work so to put it bluntly I don't care how you'd rule. And a 50% miss chance just means you need to drop enough runes to account for that. I'm not having Cthulhu be played like a dimwitted zombie. It's just that he (or anyone else really) doesn't have much in the way of counters to this really. I'm genuinely curious what kind of tentacle ring you think could prevent this though.


Anzyr wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
FLite wrote:

Umm... 18 seconds. 3 wishes. 150 str points. A rare spell written for an NPC from a book most GMs won't own, A binding to a simulacrum of a Demon Lord, and a trip to R'yleh, Cthulhu's door step. The second legend lore does not let you do the third anywhere *except* the target's presence or home.

This will be somewhat difficult, since at this point R'yleh will not actually have risen. So it since it is a prison to hold a transdimensional horror, "not Risen" may mean "does not exist in this reality"

Nothing in the description of Wish says that you can use it to reduce the casting time of a spell. In the case of Legend Lore, since there's no DC to raise, the only effect of using Wish is that it costs a lot more. You'd be much better off just casting Legend Lore.

Wish duplicates a spell. It has a casting time of 1 standard action. Did you read it? Cause it totally does. It is not greater effects apply it is well within the safe limits of the spell. The effect of Wish is duplicate spell (in this case Legend Lore) in 1 standard action, that's literally *what the spell does*. Wish reducing casting time to a standard action is RAW.

@ Akerlof - The Nalfeshnee is never in range. Please actually read the strategy before commenting. Otherwise you make comments that make no sense. Since Cthulhu's reach not is the same as Greater Dispel Magic's minimum range even.

Quick question: who gets the bag of runes within range? Could you possibly list the steps of your plan in order rather than sprinkling them around throughout the thread? I just want to see the thing laid out. You can skip the part where you become familiar enough with a demon lord to build a simulacrum of it.


Step 1: Wizard becomes aware of Cthulhu rising from the depths and must prevent it from reaching the kingdom and driving everyone mad.
Step 2: Plane Shift off Greater Demiplane (being mean I could Astral Project then do this).
Step 3. Teleport Closer to Cthulhu's approach, but not close enough to trigger combat.
Step 4. Summon Monster IX for a Nalfeshnee.
Step 5. Cast Heroism on it and order it to drop it's True Seeing.
Step 6. Approach until initiative is triggered.
Step 7. You win initiative (guaranteed).
Step 8. Order Nalfeshnee to ready an action to greater dispel when it sees the runes by Cthulhu.
Step 9. Use Staff of the Master to Quicken Time Stop. Fly into range and toss out the individual runes (think it as "making it rain"). Move out of range.
Step 10. Normal Time resumes. Nalfeshnees ready action triggers. Greater Dispel is guaranteed to fail against the runes setting them all off.
Step 11. Watch the Fireworks.

I can go into more detail as needed.

Sczarni

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*knocks on door*

'Can us martials come and join for some good old 1v1 Chtulhu on Murderhobo action? There's a big queue behind me?'

*muffled sounds*

'Oh, there should be a new thread for that? This thread is about a simple rules question? Where's the new one? Great, now I have to deal with the big queue. Alright, everyone, wrong thread, wrong thread, nothing to see here but rules questions!'


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Anzyr wrote:
Wish has it's own casting time. The effect of it is that it duplicates the spell. It doesn't duplicate Legend Lore's casting time because it has it's own. Note that for virtually every other category including range, target, effect, area, duration, and saving throw (but not SR) it says "See Text". You know what you don't see the text for. Casting time.

Wish also has an entry for Spell Resistance. Are you also going to argue that you'd have to overcome the target's Spell Resistance, even though Legend Lore doesn't allow the target to resist? If so, you'd be incorrect because the spell description "details what the spell does and how it works." If you're using Wish for any of the other things it can do besides duplicating spells, that's when you have to use it's own casting time and allow SR.

Once the attacks start it would probably be a better use of time to hit the library than to try Legend Lore.


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Yes, I'd say a Wish duplicating Legend Lore allows for SR, because the rules say it does. Fortunately it doesn't target anything with SR so it's a wash. But yes I absolutely allow SR for Wish duplicating things that don't usually have SR like all conjuration spells for example.


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I don't understand how knowing legends about Cthulhu somehow means knowing every last bit of information about it.


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Anzyr wrote:

Step 1: Wizard becomes aware of Cthulhu rising from the depths and must prevent it from reaching the kingdom and driving everyone mad.

Step 2: Plane Shift off Greater Demiplane (being mean I could Astral Project then do this).
Step 3. Teleport Closer to Cthulhu's approach, but not close enough to trigger combat.

You are now in some arbitrary location in the world.

Cthulhu greater teleports into the city. Everyone there dies.


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alientude wrote:
I don't understand how knowing legends about Cthulhu somehow means knowing every last bit of information about it.

It doesn't.

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