Cthulhu's unspeakable presence question.


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Shadow Lodge

Dimminsy wrote:
Mmm, interesting. It just seems odd to me that it wouldn't count toward your WBL more than 400 gp and some days casting. In light of the Seeds Nerf I'd say this was not intentional. Now if it came out of your WBL I'd be (a little bit more) OK with this tactic, but as is I'd say one or two of the runes activate and destroy the rest or something like that. Also, SR isn't overcome by the spell level as far as I'm seeing (only 1d20 + caster level), so I'm not seeing the use of Highten Spell feat.
Well, looking back in this thread, you will see the main tactic for overcoming SR. And the 4 hundred GP could really be reduced to 1 hundred easy, by just cutting/tearing the paper/parchent into 4ths and casting a rune on each one.
Me wrote:
Nice. I prefer to put mine in a 3-ring binder[well, whatever the PF equivalent is anyhow], have it disguised as a spellbook with the title "Spellbook:Read at your own risk", and disguise my spellbook as a cookbook named something along the lines of "100 ways to cook a monster, for the adventurous chef", just so that if somebody tries to steal my spellbook at night they get the wrong one. But still, no accounting for personal taste.

Putting this in before Schrodinger's Wizard accusations get thrown at

My Personal Safety measures:
1:Keep multiple spellbooks.

2:Have each book of Runes hold only a maximum of 1 hundred Explosive Runes spells, so that if someone picks it up and reads it you don't lose your entire supply.
3:Have each Runebook and each Spellbook kept in separate Bags of Holding, with non-essential gear in the Runebook bags. Several reasons:
  • Prevents worrying about Greater Dispel Magic on the Runebooks, because the bag will block line of sight and simply blip them out of existence for a little bit
  • Prevents the worry of a Runebook blowing up your spellbook
  • Prevents worry of a Runebook blowing up other things you need

4:If you have a personal Demiplane, keep some of your spellbooks and runebooks there, guarded by your strongest Simulacrums.
5:Don't have too many spellbooks. 1 on your person, 1 on your Demiplane, and 3 in bags of holding should be enough, and too much more starts getting expensive.
6:Make sure to label each spellbook as a different book [such as One-Hundred ways to cook a monster, A precise and detailed guide history of the first crusade, complete with enumeration of forces and personnel, Volume 5 of 37 thanks for that one FLite, How to catch a Dragon, The Planar Planner, your guide to Plane Travel, etc], and have each one on a different topic.
7:Don't get a high Profession[Dragon-catcher, historian, planar travel preparation, gourmet chef, other related to book topic], to prevent the situation FLite described.
8:Have each Runebook the PF equivalent of a 3-ring binder, letting you only take out a few at a time, as needed.
9:Keep some sort of alchemical glue/tape near the runebooks so that you can apply these to things you want to punish people for seeing.
Also, I should say that I haven't actually tried this, I came up with these a couple of days ago[other than 7, again thanks FLite], and personally would only use the "Explosive Rune Encyclopedia" for comedic effect and paranoia. Not to do Cthulhu-ganking or game-breaking. And the occasionally to tape onto things that I don't want others to look at/read.


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Assuming you have 40-41 Int as Anzyr is suggesting, just with a level 20 wizard and bonus spells, crafting the two 75 Maximized Piercing Explosive Runes nukes would take 8 days, 4 in the double speed time plane. (19 level 7-9 spell slots). I'm sure with Echoing Metamagic Rods, Pearls or Power, increasing the caster level even higher, or whatever else it'd be even quicker. There are several other legitimate holes in the plan (mostly having to do with Legend Lore, BBEG having done absolutely 0 prep work even though he's lived since forever, etc.), but being about to do prep work for 4 in normal game days for enough damage to kill one of the most powerful creatures in the game twice over in one round is absurd. Hence why I point to the needed "Seed Nerf".

EDIT: Assuming you were to add in a +5 from Dweomer's Essence, +1 from Ioun Stone, and low-balling a +6 from Cha from the Deific Obedience to each casting gives you a +36, then Piercing spell makes them always overcome. So that 150 went down to 44, aka less than two and a half normal time days without any extra items. Even more reason for this to just be insanity and to call in the Errata Hammer.

Shadow Lodge

Matthulu wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:

I do have one thing I think at least throws a wrench in the projected strategy. By rules, Cthulhu is a Great Old One. As far as we've seen, Great Old Ones have cults. Ergo, it could be assumed that great and terrible Cthulhu has high level clerics who wish to do his bidding and defend him from non-believers.

At least the addition of this resource makes things possibly interesting.

Maybe, but the hypothetical wizard probably has hypothetical minions [a.k.a. his fellow party members] to deal with these cultists.

I love Cthulhu as much as anyone, but pathfinder is not his game. It's generally a game of smash and grab and stats mean mortality, which means you can be killed, or at least banished, very quickly. Unless he gets elevated to God status, but that's not part of this conversation.

He already is a deity. The fact that he can be killed isn't actually that surprising, after all, anything can be killed if it has stats. With enough planning, Schrodinger's Wizard can be killed. Its kinda a game fact that if it has stats, it can die[at least temporarily]. That is why the devs don't stat gods. That already seems to be taken into account due to his Immortality, saying that if you kill him, that aspect of his Non-Euclidean self just takes a few-thousand year nap in R'yleh and comes back somewhere else.


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Well in that case spellbane doesn't work against him, so Cthulhu can walk around with anti magic field going and a wizard can't touch him.


EvilPaladin wrote:
Matthulu wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:

I do have one thing I think at least throws a wrench in the projected strategy. By rules, Cthulhu is a Great Old One. As far as we've seen, Great Old Ones have cults. Ergo, it could be assumed that great and terrible Cthulhu has high level clerics who wish to do his bidding and defend him from non-believers.

At least the addition of this resource makes things possibly interesting.

Maybe, but the hypothetical wizard probably has hypothetical minions [a.k.a. his fellow party members] to deal with these cultists.

I love Cthulhu as much as anyone, but pathfinder is not his game. It's generally a game of smash and grab and stats mean mortality, which means you can be killed, or at least banished, very quickly. Unless he gets elevated to God status, but that's not part of this conversation.
He already is a deity. The fact that he can be killed isn't actually that surprising, after all, anything can be killed if it has stats. With enough planning, Schrodinger's Wizard can be killed. Its kinda a game fact that if it has stats, it can die[at least temporarily]. That is why the devs don't stat gods. That already seems to be taken into account due to his Immortality, saying that if you kill him, that aspect of his Non-Euclidean self just takes a few-thousand year nap in R'yleh and comes back somewhere else.

So, if I'm following the conversation correctly, Cthulhu and Schodinger's Wizard will eternally battle for ever and ever, each one only actually killing clones and simulacrums, or banishing the other to another plane for a few millennia?

Grand Lodge

Pretty much.


One of the things that Mutants and Masterminds did is give GMs advice on running what they call "Power Level X" characters, meaning that the character is basically a plot device and as such does not need or have stats. This is what IMO should have been done with Cthulhu; no stats, no possibility of killing him, but advice to the GM on how to use him in a campaign in a way that doesn't frustrate the players or ruin the game.

Shadow Lodge

Matthulu wrote:
EvilPaladin wrote:
Matthulu wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:

I do have one thing I think at least throws a wrench in the projected strategy. By rules, Cthulhu is a Great Old One. As far as we've seen, Great Old Ones have cults. Ergo, it could be assumed that great and terrible Cthulhu has high level clerics who wish to do his bidding and defend him from non-believers.

At least the addition of this resource makes things possibly interesting.

Maybe, but the hypothetical wizard probably has hypothetical minions [a.k.a. his fellow party members] to deal with these cultists.

I love Cthulhu as much as anyone, but pathfinder is not his game. It's generally a game of smash and grab and stats mean mortality, which means you can be killed, or at least banished, very quickly. Unless he gets elevated to God status, but that's not part of this conversation.
He already is a deity. The fact that he can be killed isn't actually that surprising, after all, anything can be killed if it has stats. With enough planning, Schrodinger's Wizard can be killed. Its kinda a game fact that if it has stats, it can die[at least temporarily]. That is why the devs don't stat gods. That already seems to be taken into account due to his Immortality, saying that if you kill him, that aspect of his Non-Euclidean self just takes a few-thousand year nap in R'yleh and comes back somewhere else.
So, if I'm following the conversation correctly, Cthulhu and Schodinger's Wizard will eternally battle for ever and ever, each one only actually killing clones and simulacrums, or banishing the other to another plane for a few millennia?

Potentially, if the Wizard decides its worth continuously saving Golarion, and Cthulhu kept going straight at the wizard each time he reforms. Though I doubt this would be the case. Either the wizard would go mad and just give up on humanity, ultimately losing to Cthulhu, or Cthulhu would give up on the wizard and move on. After all Cthulhu saves sometimes. Or Cthulhu would start pulling some Schrodinger's Cthulhu tactics out and kill the wizard.


JoeJ wrote:

One of the things that Mutants and Masterminds did is give GMs advice on running what they call "Power Level X" characters, meaning that the character is basically a plot device and as such does not need or have stats. This is what IMO should have been done with Cthulhu; no stats, no possibility of killing him, but advice to the GM on how to use him in a campaign in a way that doesn't frustrate the players or ruin the game.

I like that idea, it really isn't that hard to use. It would go something like: "RUNE NUKE"........no effect. "CHEESE SPRAY"......no effect. "SUPER SNEAK ATTACK OF DOOM"........no effect. Plot time ;)...... If we must......


aceDiamond wrote:

I do have one thing I think at least throws a wrench in the projected strategy. By rules, Cthulhu is a Great Old One. As far as we've seen, Great Old Ones have cults. Ergo, it could be assumed that great and terrible Cthulhu has high level clerics who wish to do his bidding and defend him from non-believers.

At least the addition of this resource makes things possibly interesting.

The clerics aren't going to be able to do anything to stop explosive rune suitcase strategy because their chance of beating the wizards initiative is even worse(unless they are also intelligent 20th level casters, but then you have this weird scenario where the clerics summoning Cthulhu are more dangerous than Cthulhu himself). And if you don't beat the wizards initiative, Cthulhu is already down one life before the clerics get to do anything.

I will note that while this is cheesy, an optimized martial character could probably kill Cthulhu in one turn as well.


EvilPaladin wrote:
Matthulu wrote:
EvilPaladin wrote:
Matthulu wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:

I do have one thing I think at least throws a wrench in the projected strategy. By rules, Cthulhu is a Great Old One. As far as we've seen, Great Old Ones have cults. Ergo, it could be assumed that great and terrible Cthulhu has high level clerics who wish to do his bidding and defend him from non-believers.

At least the addition of this resource makes things possibly interesting.

Maybe, but the hypothetical wizard probably has hypothetical minions [a.k.a. his fellow party members] to deal with these cultists.

I love Cthulhu as much as anyone, but pathfinder is not his game. It's generally a game of smash and grab and stats mean mortality, which means you can be killed, or at least banished, very quickly. Unless he gets elevated to God status, but that's not part of this conversation.
He already is a deity. The fact that he can be killed isn't actually that surprising, after all, anything can be killed if it has stats. With enough planning, Schrodinger's Wizard can be killed. Its kinda a game fact that if it has stats, it can die[at least temporarily]. That is why the devs don't stat gods. That already seems to be taken into account due to his Immortality, saying that if you kill him, that aspect of his Non-Euclidean self just takes a few-thousand year nap in R'yleh and comes back somewhere else.
So, if I'm following the conversation correctly, Cthulhu and Schodinger's Wizard will eternally battle for ever and ever, each one only actually killing clones and simulacrums, or banishing the other to another plane for a few millennia?
Potentially, if the Wizard decides its worth continuously saving Golarion, and Cthulhu kept going straight at the wizard each time he reforms. Though I doubt this would be the case. Either the wizard would go mad and just give up on humanity, ultimately losing to Cthulhu, or...

Well presumably the 20th level wizard is going to get some new artifacts and maybe even levels while Cthulhu is taking his first 1000 year nap.

At a minimum he is going to have an army of simulacrums, undead and crafted constructs who can handle Cthulhu for him. Because as good as Cthluhlu is, he only has DR 20 and isn't particularly well off against undead.

If you want even more fun cheese, teleportation circle lets you send a few hundred troops through in a single round with readied actions. That combined with all the summoning and crafting abilities wizards get allow you to have an army anyone in seconds.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:

I do have one thing I think at least throws a wrench in the projected strategy. By rules, Cthulhu is a Great Old One. As far as we've seen, Great Old Ones have cults. Ergo, it could be assumed that great and terrible Cthulhu has high level clerics who wish to do his bidding and defend him from non-believers.

At least the addition of this resource makes things possibly interesting.

The clerics aren't going to be able to do anything to stop explosive rune suitcase strategy because their chance of beating the wizards initiative is even worse(unless they are also intelligent 20th level casters, but then you have this weird scenario where the clerics summoning Cthulhu are more dangerous than Cthulhu himself). And if you don't beat the wizards initiative, Cthulhu is already down one life before the clerics get to do anything.

I will note that while this is cheesy, an optimized martial character could probably kill Cthulhu in one turn as well.

Cthulhu can grant spells to his clerics like any other deity, so I don't see any problem with him having 20th level casters in his cult. (Not all of the necessarily clerics, either. Wizards can be true believers just like anybody else.) Perhaps the stats in the book are just his Avatar, not his true extraplanar self.

And as for initiative, don't assume that the wizard is the one initiating combat. Among other things, both Cthulhu and his Star Spawn have a high enough CL to control a 20th level character that they just Gated to whichever plane they decided to traveled to.

Grand Lodge

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Actually, Cthulhu's clerics get (limited) wizard spells...

Cause Cthulhu is crazy like that.


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This had been fascinating to follow (though it's getting a little tired now). Not because of the content but because of how far people will argue to be "right" on the interwebs.

In the flagging stages it seems that people are more annoyed with the way Anzyr conveys his concepts than the concepts themselves. Truthfully just because it's wrapped in smug condescension doesn't make them wrong. I can see how that would irritate some people but that's the way of the world.

It boils down to two inevitable conclusions;

1) if you GM for Anzyr expect him to find "basic, simple and kinder garden reading levels of system mastery that everyone that isn't him is clearly just a little too dim to understand but if you are real lucky he'll patronizingly tease you toward but not actually tell you so it doesn't stunt your development" ways of trivializing every challenge you give the 20th level wizard you allowed him to have.

2) don't game with Anzyr, or dont give him a 20th level wizard.

People, you can't win the internets.

Of course you can win pathfinder if you really want to. Everyone knows the system is broken. That's why it can be gamed.

Some people want to win pathfinder and some just want to experience it. It's all good people. Like for like. Play the way you want and let them play theirs.

Anzyr's not wrong. He's just moderately clever with a talent for getting under the skin of people who insist that breaking PF down to its components is wrong.

If you bite then you are idiots.

More power to him. Well done Anzyr.


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I think there's more problems than just the suitcase nuke with the plan. Not to mention it's not the most original. Feed the troll's ego, feed the troll's ego, feed the...


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Well, it's been fun and informative to watch the batting back and forth of the little details.

For one thing, it's taught me that Explosive Runes and similar spells clearly need some house ruling.

Not because that would change the outcome of the conflict, but to prevent argument and confusion in games where PC's might try to overproduce free magical traps.

The fact of the matter is the hypothetical wizard, as many posters have explained, would only stand so much of a chance as the GM decided to allow.

Here's one silly, but entirely RAW legal example:

1) Cthluhu awakens, already briefed on any major foes or obstacles by the dreams of his worshipers.
2) Before he sits up to get breakfast he Wishes for all copies, clones, simulacrums and such of said wizard to be permanently stripped of any magical powers, reverting said wizard(s) into a powerless commoner(s).
3) This is an extraordinary use of Wish, so the GM must approve this use.
4) GM approves the Wish and applies it's effects.


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Inviktus wrote:


Here's one silly, but entirely RAW legal example:

1) Cthluhu awakens, already briefed on any major foes or obstacles by the dreams of his worshipers.
2) Before he sits up to get breakfast he Wishes for all copies, clones, simulacrums and such of said wizard to be permanently stripped of any magical powers, reverting said wizard(s) into a powerless commoner(s).
3) This is an extraordinary use of Wish, so the GM must approve this use.
4) GM approves the Wish and applies it's effects.

LOL!


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Inviktus wrote:


Here's one silly, but entirely RAW legal example:

1) Cthluhu awakens, already briefed on any major foes or obstacles by the dreams of his worshipers.
2) Before he sits up to get breakfast he Wishes for all copies, clones, simulacrums and such of said wizard to be permanently stripped of any magical powers, reverting said wizard(s) into a powerless commoner(s).
3) This is an extraordinary use of Wish, so the GM must approve this use.
4) GM approves the Wish and applies it's effects.

I see it now

Anzyr sits at the table

GM asks for Anzyr's character sheet, "ok, so Anzyr's wizard is dead and he won't be joining us. Everybody else please describe your characters as you meet in a generic Inn"

Anzyr "what the...?"

GM "sorry Anzyr. But it's within the rules. I'll let you think about why your character was dead before it began. It's pretty basic system mastery really..."

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Just put the Advanced template on Cthulhu and it's all good.


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The reference wizard that was suggested has an impressive 242 hp, but his AC is only 15. So I'm thinking:

1. Cthulhu wakes up and is briefed by his priests on who the most powerful non-cult wizards are.

2. Cthulhu uses Gate to travel to a plane of his choice.

3. Cthulhu summons 2d4 Star-Spawn, getting at least 2.

4. Cthulhu uses Gate again to summon the wizard. Because his caster level (30) is at least as high as the number of hit dice the wizard has, Cthulhu is able to control the wizard and keep him from attacking.

5. Cthulhu attacks. His 2 claws and 4 tentacles easily hit the wizard's lousy AC. Minimum possible damage is 198 hp. Cthulhu also has the Grab special ability with a CMB of +62, easily beating the wizards CMD of 29. Wizard is grappled.

6. One of the star-spawn sends the wizard a brief telepathic message (a free action). The wizard makes his save against Overwhelming Mind and is merely staggered for 1 round.

7. The star-Spawn attack with 2 claws (+32) and 6 tentacles (+27) each. All attacks hit. Minimum damage is 90 hp per star-spawn, or at least 180 hp for the pair.

At the end of round 1, the wizard has taken a minimum of 378 hp of damage. He is also staggered and grappled (Concentration 10 to cast any spell is 72 + spell level).

I'll leave it to somebody else to figure out what the damage is if some of those hits are criticals. I'm going to bed.


JoeJ wrote:


If you mean This One, that's character's not remotely legal, just looking at WBL alone.

Hi Joe, I see you are mentioning WBL, so I would like to ask some questions!

Lets say I am a level ten wizard in a game you are gming, and I learn the spell blood money. Does this mean my party and I can no longer find loot, because I can potentially create infinite wealth using blood money to cover the costs of expensive spell components?

If I take a few crafting feats, and craft a bunch of items so that the party is all significantly above wbl, does that mean We will no longer find loot?

Lets say I learn the spell fabricate, and we encounter an adamantine golem. If I fabricate all the adamantine into fullplate and sell it, does that mean I give up future loot? Does having fabricate on my spell list mean that my party and I can no longer find things made of metal because I can just turn it into fullplate at no cost?


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CWheezy wrote:
JoeJ wrote:


If you mean This One, that's character's not remotely legal, just looking at WBL alone.

Hi Joe, I see you are mentioning WBL, so I would like to ask some questions!

Lets say I am a level ten wizard in a game you are gming, and I learn the spell blood money. Does this mean my party and I can no longer find loot, because I can potentially create infinite wealth using blood money to cover the costs of expensive spell components?

If I take a few crafting feats, and craft a bunch of items so that the party is all significantly above wbl, does that mean We will no longer find loot?

Lets say I learn the spell fabricate, and we encounter an adamantine golem. If I fabricate all the adamantine into fullplate and sell it, does that mean I give up future loot? Does having fabricate on my spell list mean that my party and I can no longer find things made of metal because I can just turn it into fullplate at no cost?

Blood Money creates no problems whatsoever, since it doesn't exist in any world where I'm the GM.

For the other questions, WBL is only for starting characters. Once you're in the game I just give out treasure. (Usually with reference to the Treasure by Encounter table.) How the PCs spend it, and whether that leaves them below, at, or above the recommended WBL is for them to decide. Any adjustment in treasure, whether up or down, will be based on my judgment of how powerful the party is vs. how tough the challenges that I have planned are.

Remember that if I'm the GM, you can't find anything that I didn't put there, or create any magic items that I didn't approve, and I'll have considered the implications beforehand (or at least as many of them as I can think of).

If you were starting a character above 1st level, you'd find that I'm very strict about what you can bring in, but pretty flexible about what you can do after that. If you want to create a suitcase nuke, or your own demi-plane once you're high enough level, you can. You will have to expend the appropriate spell slots, however, which leaves you with fewer spells should anything else occur on the days you're working on your projects - you can't expect the rest of the world to just sit on hold while you're working.


Wealth by level is a part of the game for a reason. While it is a guideline an is there to help DMs decide appropriate treasure, the amount of gold someone's items are worth plays into how powerful they are. You cannot tell me that a +4 Keen Speed Greatsword is an inappropriate power level for a 5th level barbarian. By the same reasoning thousands of Simulacrum are an inappropriate power level for pretty much anyone. Hence why Blood Money is such a problem if the DM just allows unbridled use of it. I'm fine with it being used as long as any lasting effects count toward your WBL in some way. Because of the line "You cannot create magic items with blood money" the intention was to not allow lasting effects such as free Wishes, armies of simulacrum paid with Blood Money (assuming that even works RAW), etc.

I agree Item Crafting should increase your WBL somewhat. The fairest way I found to regulate created above level 1 characters was to increase the character's effective WBL by 10-20% per crafting feat then have the new character pay full price for their items. In normal adventuring you're not going to be able to convert all of your gold into items, so it's a nice balance between "Item Crafting is useful" and "Item Crafting is broken."

TL;DR: Don't use Blood Money or item crafting feats to go exorbantly far above WBL assuming you're playing a somewhat normal game.

Dark Archive

TL; DR - In Pathfinder, Cthulhu is a demigod, not a deity, which means he has stats and can be "killed" ("defeated"? not sure how to construct that sentence since he's immortal). If you don't like that, house rule him and make him a deity. Otherwise, house rule the Explosive Runes.

EvilPaladin wrote:
He already is a deity.

Technically Inner Sea Gods does NOT list him as a God (the page is 191) - it lists him as a Great Old One (the same as Bestiary IV). The only Lovecraftian horrors listed as Outer gods are: Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Shub-Niggurath, and Yog-Sothoth.

This makes the source consistent with Bestiary IV:

Quote:
The Great Old Ones themselves often serve and worship even greater powers, such as Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Shub-Niggurath, and Yog-Sothoth. Those creatures are the Outer Gods, and whereas the Great Old Ones can be thought of as akin to demigods, the Outer Gods are themselves true deities.

So he is _not_ a deity in Pathfinder but a demigod (which is why he has stats, in Pathfinder terms, true deities are never statted up, only demigods, and I believe every example of one of those demi-divine beings is effectively unkillable without GM fiat, meaning, in service to some grand campaign story goal). In Cthulhu's case he cannot die because the Great Old One subtype means he's immortal (and mythic, etc, etc)..

Though, like I pointed out earlier, if the dissonance in the entire combo is that it can be used against Cthulhu, it's easier to simply follow the suggestion of the Hastur entry in the same Bestiary IV.

Quote:
Hastur is the most mysterious of the Great Old Ones. In fact, the entity known as Hastur might actually be an Outer God. The physical manifestation of this entity is known as the King in Yellow, and though most consider this creature—a vaguely human-shaped figure draped in a yellow cloak—to be synonymous with Hastur himself, many scholars believe that the King in Yellow is nothing more than an avatar used by the true Hastur to move among the denizens of the physical world.

You could just apply the same logic to Cthulhu, making the enormous thing that sleeps in R'yleh his avatar and promote Cthulhu himself to Outer God (lore-wise, this makes no sense to me, but people seem attached to Cthulhu in a way that they aren't attached to, for example, Bokrug).

Personally, I think it's easier to house-rule the Explosive Runes - that is the root of the entire problem. He could do this same thing to, for example, mythic dragons or super high level liches. Explosive Runes allow for too much damage for their level. Personally, I think the easiest way to fix the exploit is to simply remove the dispel option completely. In general that slightly weakens spellcasters (they can't dispel it on tomes they pick up), but spellcasters are big boys and I'm sure they'll survive. Alternatively you could go with two other easy to implement methods that I can think of. Either make the second casting of Explosive Runes make the first one inert (like Alchemists and their Mutagens), and require someone to craft a magic trap to have a permanent version OR make the damage non-additive. The first one is probably enough for most games to stop it from becoming too broken, but if someone is really determined, they could still do it.

Again, though, if a player does it, it's only fair to allow him the moment (he did think of it after all), then house rule it between sessions and let him change his character so he doesn't rely on it any more.


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rooboy wrote:

Personally, I think it's easier to house-rule the Explosive Runes - that is the root of the entire problem. He could do this same thing to, for example, mythic dragons or super high level liches. Explosive Runes allow for too much damage for their level. Personally, I think the easiest way to fix the exploit is to simply remove the dispel option completely. In general that slightly weakens spellcasters (they can't dispel it on tomes they pick up), but spellcasters are big boys and I'm sure they'll survive. Alternatively you could go with two other easy to implement methods that I can think of. Either make the second casting of Explosive Runes make the first one inert (like Alchemists and their Mutagens), and require someone to craft a magic trap to have a permanent version OR make the damage non-additive. The first one is probably enough for most games to stop it from becoming too broken, but if someone is really determined, they could still do it.

Again, though, if a player does it, it's only fair to allow him the moment (he did think of it after all), then house rule it between sessions and let him change his character so he doesn't rely on it any more.

It's not really a spur of the moment thing, though. It takes significant time to prepare; it's not like everybody just has a big pile of Explosive Runes sitting around in their attic. If you really don't want a PC to do this, the time to stop it is when they first try to start stockpiling the runes.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Buri wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed some back and forth sniping and responses to it. This thread has been unraveling quite a bit, let's bring it back around to the rules question, please.

Gladly

Can you spend your wealth to gain advantage in this scenario, yes or no? If not, then PC wealth is out of the window. If yes, Cthulu gets to spend his treasure value to be genericly outfitted and not for this particular fight whatsoever.

The GM can, but they rarely do. One of the big issues Cthulhu runs into is that he can't wear most listed gear(see the Pathfinder FAQ on monsters wearing gear), so he would need to wear homebrewed equipment if you actually want to outfit him. If the party is supposed to fight him while he wears a wide area of expensive custom equipment, then the statblock should mention this. You would run into a similar issue with a large portion of the bestiary. Dragons, for instance, never seem to convert their horde into wearable magic items, even though they definitely could.

However, I do find the idea of Christmas Tree Cthulhu very entertaining.

I'm not finding this FAQ, can you point me to it? The PFSRD seems to suggest here that, for a biped like Cthulhu, most if not all item slots are open.

Dark Archive

JoeJ wrote:
It's not really a spur of the moment thing, though. It takes significant time to prepare; it's not like everybody just has a big pile of Explosive Runes sitting around in their attic. If you really don't want a PC to do this, the time to stop it is when they first try to start stockpiling the runes.

That is actually a great point. The thrust of my point was that you should let the character build OUT of the option, rather than leaving him with something you depowered. In this instance, it's just changing a spell, but lots of other times it's a feat or an archetype or something else, rather than force him to continue with the option that you just gimped, let him rebuild his sheet into something new (Within reason, I guess? I can't see someone needing to rebuild the entire thing for one third level spell, but if they have reasons, whatever.)


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Inviktus wrote:

Well, it's been fun and informative to watch the batting back and forth of the little details.

For one thing, it's taught me that Explosive Runes and similar spells clearly need some house ruling.

Not because that would change the outcome of the conflict, but to prevent argument and confusion in games where PC's might try to overproduce free magical traps.

The fact of the matter is the hypothetical wizard, as many posters have explained, would only stand so much of a chance as the GM decided to allow.

Here's one silly, but entirely RAW legal example:

1) Cthluhu awakens, already briefed on any major foes or obstacles by the dreams of his worshipers.
2) Before he sits up to get breakfast he Wishes for all copies, clones, simulacrums and such of said wizard to be permanently stripped of any magical powers, reverting said wizard(s) into a powerless commoner(s).
3) This is an extraordinary use of Wish, so the GM must approve this use.
4) GM approves the Wish and applies it's effects.

No, your wish didn't revert the wizard into a commoner. You only wished for the "copies clones, simulacrums and such" but you never actually wished to strip the wizard himself of his power. This would make things a little more difficult, but the wizard can still pull off the explosive rune suitcase trick.


This thread has convinced me not to include any Great Old Ones or Outer Gods in my campaigns. Nothing good ever seems to come of it.


rooboy wrote:
JoeJ wrote:
It's not really a spur of the moment thing, though. It takes significant time to prepare; it's not like everybody just has a big pile of Explosive Runes sitting around in their attic. If you really don't want a PC to do this, the time to stop it is when they first try to start stockpiling the runes.
That is actually a great point. The thrust of my point was that you should let the character build OUT of the option, rather than leaving him with something you depowered. In this instance, it's just changing a spell, but lots of other times it's a feat or an archetype or something else, rather than force him to continue with the option that you just gimped, let him rebuild his sheet into something new (Within reason, I guess? I can't see someone needing to rebuild the entire thing for one third level spell, but if they have reasons, whatever.)

It doesn't take that long to make the suitcase of explosive runes. Only a few weeks if you want to keep spell slots available just in case.

I find it odd that party members never have a few months of downtime between campaigns.

I mean, explosive runes is a 3rd level spell. Say the wizard grabs it at level 6. Thats 14 levels between 6 and 20 where he was constantly adventuring without taking time to himself.

For us, its the opposite. More like real intense professions. Lots of downtime where nothing is happening followed by brief periods of intense action.

Dark Archive

johnlocke90 wrote:
It doesn't take that long to make the suitcase of explosive runes. Only a few weeks if you want to keep spell slots available just in case.

It doesn't really matter if it's weeks, days, or months - I think his point was that it happens in downtime, which means you can rule on it before it happens.

FWIW, I agree, typically I prefer distinct adventures to have some downtime in between. It lets players connect better with the rest of the world (one of the reasons Ultimate Campaign is one of my fave sourcebooks).


rooboy wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
It doesn't take that long to make the suitcase of explosive runes. Only a few weeks if you want to keep spell slots available just in case.
It doesn't really matter if it's weeks, days, or months - I think his point was that it happens in downtime, which means you can rule on it before it happens.

Exactly. I'd also find out what the character hopes to use them for since, unless the player has hacked my laptop, he doesn't know what I'm planning to do in the next adventure.

Oddly enough, I actually like the idea of an Explosive Runes nuke. It's a clever idea and one that is extremely easy for a GM to turn from an automatic "I Win" button into a tense "Hail Mary" play.


JoeJ wrote:
rooboy wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
It doesn't take that long to make the suitcase of explosive runes. Only a few weeks if you want to keep spell slots available just in case.
It doesn't really matter if it's weeks, days, or months - I think his point was that it happens in downtime, which means you can rule on it before it happens.

Exactly. I'd also find out what the character hopes to use them for since, unless the player has hacked my laptop, he doesn't know what I'm planning to do in the next adventure.

Oddly enough, I actually like the idea of an Explosive Runes nuke. It's a clever idea and one that is extremely easy for a GM to turn from an automatic "I Win" button into a tense "Hail Mary" play.

An intelligently played wizard is sort of like Batman. He should develop as many contingency plans as he can think of and look through his spell list for every possible power or combination he can make, with special focus on permanent spells.

The explosive rune suitcase trick is a fairly simple one with a wide variety of uses. It can one shot a BBG, blow up a supertough wall. You can also use it as a powerful remote explosive or you can set it up above a door and explode it when the enemy walks back. The most important aspect is that it lets you deal effectively infinite damage to a target, which is just useful. With proper precautions its fairly safe as well.

The biggest danger is the GM starts using the tactic on you or decides he doesn't like it and has it backfire due to GM fiat.


JoeJ wrote:


For the other questions, WBL is only for starting characters.

Hi joe, thanks for your response!

So you are saying if I play a wizard from 1-15, and I craft, learn fabricate, and basically shoot my party's WBL way over, this is totally ok!

If I am creating a level 15 wizard with fabricate and crafting feats, I am assumed not to have crafted anything or fabricated anything and am strictly limited to WBL.

Thanks for letting me know your opinion!


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CWheezy wrote:
JoeJ wrote:


For the other questions, WBL is only for starting characters.

Hi joe, thanks for your response!

So you are saying if I play a wizard from 1-15, and I craft, learn fabricate, and basically shoot my party's WBL way over, this is totally ok!

If I am creating a level 15 wizard with fabricate and crafting feats, I am assumed not to have crafted anything or fabricated anything and am strictly limited to WBL.

Thanks for letting me know your opinion!

If you do a bunch of crafting during play and use it to help the party, more power to you. You're building the party's strength gradually and I can tweak the rest of the universe to keep things challenging and fun. And if it looks like things are trending in a bad direction, I've got time to figure out a remedy.

For starting at level 15, yep. You're limited to WBL. You can say that you crafted your gear if you want, but that just means the time you spent crafting was not spent making money, so it's a wash either way.


johnlocke90 wrote:
No, your wish didn't revert the wizard into a commoner. You only wished for the "copies clones, simulacrums and such" but you never actually wished to strip the wizard himself of his power. This would make things a little more difficult, but the wizard can still pull off the explosive rune suitcase trick.

...WHOOOSH...

Scarab Sages

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I think that the assumption has been made that initiative begins at 300ft away, where the telepathy and unspeakable presence kicks in.

If that assumption changes, then execution becomes much trickier.

Let's assume, for example, that initiative begins a thousand feet out. After the time stop ends, the Nalfeshnee will not be close enough to trigger the runes.

And here's something else interesting that I noticed. Cthulhu has triple treasure and the craft wondrous item feat. I don't see any reason why the majority of that loot wouldn't be items he'd forged at cost for himself. Why have the feat if he doesn't use it? It's in the stat block, so it must be intended. Anyone want to deck Cthulhu out with appropriate amount of silly gear?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
FLite wrote:

Yes, but the blaster magus is going to have to deal with Cthulhu's quickened feeblemind,

The 4 solars are going to meet 2d4 starspawn coming the other way

It is an interesting question whether a creature immune to mind effecting is immune to daze.

stacking Explosive runes requires you to know his exact path, several rounds in advance. It also requires you to touch each of the objects. God help you if you are still doing it when Cthulhu gets close enough to see what you are doing, and casts greater dispel magic...

How does one summon solars? I am trying to solo him as a 20 level sorcerer with 10 mythic tiers and I want backup


You use gate.


Easiest way to beat Cthulu is to beat him to the punch. Create your own demiplane, slow down time until you have 1000000 years passing by at a second of normal time, then pop back into the real world every so often to drop some Cursed Earth all over the place. You can spend your eternity in the Demi plane expanding it infinitely, meanwhile living long enough to research and know anything and everything. If he does show up and tries to cast dispel, you only need a caster level of 40 to beat it, and then you can shunt him away. Once he gets to your planet, sees everything burnt to s&~~, he'll just go home sad.


MMCJawa wrote:

Cthulhu is billions of years old and has Intelligence of 31...which means he would probably be able to anticipate most wizard tactics, including cheesy ones like exploding runes.

So this tactic seems like one that depends upon a GM playing Cthulhu as incredibly dumb and without any sort of support.

I'd also like to point out merely knowledge of Cthulhu is enough to simulacrum him. Let's see how Cthulhu fairs against 1,000 blood moneyed Cthulhu/Hastur snow jobs.


c sage wrote:
Easiest way to beat Cthulu is to beat him to the punch. Create your own demiplane, slow down time until you have 1000000 years passing by at a second of normal time, then pop back into the real world every so often to drop some Cursed Earth all over the place. You can spend your eternity in the Demi plane expanding it infinitely, meanwhile living long enough to research and know anything and everything. If he does show up and tries to cast dispel, you only need a caster level of 40 to beat it, and then you can shunt him away. Once he gets to your planet, sees everything burnt to s!@@, he'll just go home sad.

That's not how timeless demiplanes work.

Timeless wrote:
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished.


Yeah, about the closest you can come to a DBZ-style hyperbolic time chamber is making a demiplane where time flows twice as fast, letting you do two days worth of work in one day.

Timeless demiplanes have very interesting uses, but actually getting more time out of your day isn't one them.

Shadow Lodge

Icyshadow wrote:
This thread has convinced me not to include any Great Old Ones or Outer Gods in my campaigns. Nothing good ever seems to come of it.

If something good comes of it, you were playing them wrong anyway. Maybe try Nodens...then something vaguely neutral (or at least not overtly inherently hostile) might come of.it.

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