Party lacking in Trapfinding


Advice

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Party composed by:

-Paladin
-Cavalier
-Cleric
-Summoner
-Ranger

First suggestion they gave to me was "Rogue", but i.m not sure to wanna play that class, so i'm wondering if i can cover the "lack" with another class/archetype... i was oriented for Alchemist-Bard-Barbarian - Like class

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The only time you need Trapfinding is if you encounter magical traps. Training Disable Device is enough for mechanical ones.

Crypt-breaker Alchemist gains Trapfinding and can be an excellent rogue alternative.


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I would play an archeologist bard


You could consider the Archeologist Bard, which gains trapfinding and a whole host of other rogue-like abilities by trading out most Bardic abilities. With that many pure martials they might appreciate a bit of Inspire Courage though. If your GM will let you take the "Trap Finder" Trait from Mummy's Mask that an unarchetyped Bard with points in perception and disable device could work perfectly.

An Alchemist with the Trap breaker Archetype is also perfectly capable of filling the skill & trapfinding aspects of the Rogue.

The lack of a dedicated trapfinder depends on your GM and the adventure you're playing. Published Adventure Paths tend to have relatively few, not hugely dangerous traps. Honestly I'd consider the lack of a full arcane caster (Summoner argument ahoy...) to be a bigger hole in the party at present.


Wands of summon monster I are excellent for detecting most traps.

There's an alchemist archetype that not only has trapfinding, but can also use it's bombs as landmines. I've firgotten it''s name and can't look it up right now, but it immediately brought forth tye idea of a kobold trapmaster with that archetype...

Honestly, it it's just trapfinding you need, there's better than the rogue


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Well, firstly, if the group has no trapfinder, the GM shouldn't be using a lot of traps, that's common sense and GM 101.

Seconding Corvino on the Trapfinder trait.


Yeah a Bard of some type with either an archetype for trapfinding or the trapfinding trait is what I would recommend.

The above group + Haste + Inspire Courage + Heroism = Yumm

I am biased slightly however as I find Bard to be extremely attractive in almost all cases due to its flexibility.


Trapbreaker Vivisectionist Alchemist. Fantastic rogue replacement.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Anyone can use perception to find Mechanical Traps and Disable Device to remove them. Trapfind gives the character a bonus to Perception and Disable Device Check. For Magical Traps you can use Detect Magic to locate them, and either Dispel Magic to suppress it or various creative methods of setting it off. (Or just soak the damage in some cases)

Trapfinding is a nice bonus but there are many ways to deal with them.


Seeing your current five party members:
-Paladin - tank/smite evil stuff/lot's of sustain
-Cavalier - melee + tactics?
-Cleric - full 9 level divine caster
-Summoner - one extra party member + great buff spell
-Ranger - Ranged damage dealer I guess?

The Seeker archetype oracle has the "Tinkering (Ex)" class ability at level 1 that would be great fit but your team already has a 9th level divine caster.

I feel that your team is lacking a bit of arcane juice to compensate this here what you can do:

- Detective bard
- 3 levels of Wizard with 3 level of rogue and then full on arcane trickster
- Crypt-breaker Alchemist

But if your group feel comfortable with a bit less arcane mojo you can always pick up a Trapper ranger and go horizon walker.


Thanks for all those replies!

About Disable Device, maybe i'm wrong but i thought you can use it only with training.

Corvino is right, but seems we're running in a big dungeon now (For a Quest, same dungeon where my ex-PC is dead by a trap), so traps are at the order of the day.

I'm right with Darkwarriorkarg, usually summon monster could be used like this, but the summoner is a sensible gnome, who don't like that creatures like animals and monsters hurt themselves, so it will be a little complicated.

About the party:

Paladin - A good tank and a good smiter for evil.
Cavalier - Mounted combat without feats to do it, tactics.
Cleric - Of Sarenrae, Healing-Machine.
Summoner - Buffer + Eidolon, that's the best tank/DPR we have.
Ranger - Ranged combat, now the only we have (i was a gunslinger).

Lantern Lodge

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I don't think anyone mentioned another good choice: Seeker Archetype Sorceror. Full arcane caster which your group doesn't have.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orthodox Banjoist wrote:

Thanks for all those replies!

About Disable Device, maybe i'm wrong but i thought you can use it only with training.

Anyone can put a rank into it. Making it a class skill is a good idea for the +3, but once you have a rank you are considered trained.


If two characters each put a rank in it, one of them can use Aid Another to give the other a bonus.


Remember that you only need 1 level of a class with trapfinding to find magical traps. Regarding JoeJ's suggestion to use Aid Another, a familiar can Aid you with all the skills you know.


Devilkiller wrote:
Remember that you only need 1 level of a class with trapfinding to find magical traps.

Fairly certain you need Trapfinding to disable magic traps, not find them.


Captain Zoom wrote:
I don't think anyone mentioned another good choice: Seeker Archetype Sorceror. Full arcane caster which your group doesn't have.

I vote this. A very good point that the party does not yet have a wizard or sorcerer. For seeker you should pick a bloodline that has good bloodline spells and arcana but don't worry about bloodline powers because you lose most of those.

Note though that the sorcerer has low skill ranks, and you need certain ones as a sorcerer. You might want the Sage bloodline so you can use INT instead.

BTW the summoner already has a trapfinding ability called summon monster I. What you need is someone to disable them.

Note that you could also just take a trait that grants disable device in class. Dispel magic should deal with magical traps.

Peet

Sovereign Court

At the risk of sounding cynical... Trapfinding is often a trap.

When none of the PCs has it, GMs often don't put in all that many traps into their adventures. When a PC has Trapfinding, suddenly the GM feels a need to validate that choice by increasing the number of traps encountered.

---

If you still want Trapfinding, I'd go with the Archaeologist Bard. It's a solid archetype that does just fine even if no traps show up; it's still got spells, a very nice luck ability (especially with the Fortune's Favored trait), good skills and it's decent at combat.

I think the Seeker Sorcerer is too hindered by the low number of skill points, otherwise that'd be my recommendation as well.


thanks for writing, i'm really apreciating this partecipation!

The "Do not have trapfinding=No traps (or less)" is not working... we're facing some dangerous dungeons full of traps and monsters (i died just the day before yesterday :P), so we need to solve traps in anyway; as many said, i don't need trapfinding for traps, i can find otherways.

Sorcerer is a class i've never liked, till D&D3.5; i don't know why, maybe because i must select spells, maybe because i prefer wizard.

What about a witch? Too Arcaneless?

Sovereign Court

I'd go for Archaeologist then. At level 4 you can take a rogue talent, so take Trap Spotter; you receive checks to spot traps even if you weren't paying attention. And at level 6 you get to Take 10 on detection and disabling checks. It's about as reliable as it's gonna get.

Note though that the Archaeologist doesn't get Disable Device as a class skill, so you'll need a trait for that.

---

Alternatively, make a wizard and beg the GM to let you take the Trapspotting talent from Mummy's Mask. Then take the Seeker trait to also get Perception as a class skill, and you should be fine.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Wands of summon monster I are excellent for detecting most traps.

A wand of mount is better if you just want something to set off traps. Poor poor Dobbin.

You don't have a full arcane caster, I would consider a seeker sage sorcerer.

Liberty's Edge

Good Rogue replacements include, as mentioned, Trapbreaker Vivisectionist Alchemists and Archaeologist Bards, they also include Urban (or Trapper) Rangers, and (if the ACG playtest is allowed) Slayers and Investigators.

But none of those seem to fit what the party really needs. With that in mind, I'd go Seeker Sorcerer. That doesn't really do the skill-monkey thing or combat roe of a Rogue...but all you need from the Rogue is Trapfinding, and the Seeker gets that.


Making seeker a sage makes him a skill monkey very easily.


With or without a rogue the party will find the traps. Barbarians can be especially good at it.


Someone could always just take the Trap Finder trait.

It gives disable device as a class skill +1 and lets you disarm magical traps.


Build a dwarven inquisitor. You will not get trapfinding but you get lots of skills, good perception, bonuses to perception to notice traps in stone walls or floors as well as good saves vs some sorts of traps.
You can be a melee, a ranged guy, a buffer or a mix.
While it is true that you don't have a full 9th level arcane caster you do have a summoner. That has to be enough.

Grand Lodge

Check with the DM on Aid Another for traps, the ability specifically calls out that aid another does not work with disable device (locks) and says other checks are on a case by case basis. If the DM allows it (you say you want 2 people in range of the trap when it goes off? Sure :D) then have the Summoner's Eidolon take ranks in Disable Device to aid you.

Honestly, the Eidolon could just be the dang "trap-finder" anyway, slight loss of other skills and just max it's perception and disable device, then send it in first. It gets injured, heal it. It dies, re-summon it, etc... It sees the trap, have it disable it. Granted, unless it has hands and a set of thieves tools, it won't do well. But that also can be done with minimal tinkering.

Liberty's Edge

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andreww wrote:
Making seeker a sage makes him a skill monkey very easily.

His Class Skill list is still a bit shaky...but that'd certainly help, yeah.

Mir wrote:

Someone could always just take the Trap Finder trait.

It gives disable device as a class skill +1 and lets you disarm magical traps.

This is a Campaign Trait for Mummy's Mask specifically, and thus not available in many games. Just for the record.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Considering Trap Finder is a campaign trait, that may not be allowed for people who aren't in the campaign (and by default, isn't).

Ways to get the ability to disarm traps (that I know of) without being a Rogue:

Alchemist: Crypt Breaker archetype (Inner Sea Magic)
Alchemist: Trap Breaker archetype (Dungeoneer's Handbook)
Bard: Archaelogist archetype (Ultimate Combat)
Bard: Detective archetype (Advanced Player's Guide)
Oracle: Seeker archetype (Pathfinder Society Field Guide)
Ranger: Trapper archetype (Ultimate Magic)
Sorcerer: Seeker archetype (Pathfinder Society Field Guide)

Aspis Agent prestige class (Paths of Prestige)
Brother of the Seal prestige class (Paths of Prestige)
Pathfinder Field Agent prestige class (Pathfinder Society Primer)

An alchemist, bard, sorcerer, or wizard with access to the 2nd level spell Aram Zey's Focus (Pathfinder Society Field Guide)

A custom magic item (with the permission of the DM) that allows access to the above spell, either x/day, or permanently.

Also, if you take the Arcane Trap Suppressor feat (Dungeoneer's Handbook), you can use dispel magic to suppress a magical trap for minutes, rather than rounds, which may be all you need.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
andreww wrote:
Making seeker a sage makes him a skill monkey very easily.

His Class Skill list is still a bit shaky...but that'd certainly help, yeah.

It is a little sketchy although seeker gives you disable device as a class skill. If you grab the student of philosophy trait you also become an excellent group face.


Just want to add, that the (often repeated) advice to use Summon/Mount to 'set off traps' may not ALWAYS be a good idea - it really does depend on the type of trap encountered (of couse depends on the GM/dungeon/module)!
First of all the EFFECT of the trap may not always be/happen in the same location as the TRIGGER.
Not all traps are of the "go off, then hit/maim the exact person stepping on it, not harming anything else".
I know that in my games/many dungeons there can be plenty of traps that does a lot of others things, and that you DON'T want to deal with be setting them off. For example a trap could lock you in the room and have water coming in, or have the room floor going into the ceiling where spikes are coming out (thus maybe trapping not just the summoned creature but the entire group). Traps can also have such or other effects, but in earlier or later dungeon rooms, or maybe close-off the main entrance to the dungeon, or open up for rooms filled with hundreds of undead etc etc... And of course there are also the simple: Trap go off, fireball explodes - but maybe not exactly where the TRIGGER is...

Not saying it's not often a good idea to trigger a trap with a mount/summon, but its certainly not ALWAYS the case - if it is, then IMO traps are just useless/boring/predictive...

Grand Lodge

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Tell your GM To read the GameMastery Guide. One of the very first things it suggests is if there is "no one to find traps, consider not putting traps in your dungeon." It's unfair to the players to pigeon-hole the odd man out into making him play a class he wasn't going to play on his own.

And since everyone maxes perception, everyone should be able to spot traps, anyways. In the game I play, the druid has a higher perception than I do even with both of it having maxed and including my trapfinding.


The GMG is advice, nothing else, so reading it wouldn't/shouldnt "pigeonhole" the GM! :)
Also i personally dont agree that the dungeons/scenarioes shouldnt include traps if there are no trap-finders in the party..! For a variety of reasons:
1) There are others ways to handle traps, than trapfinding. As you mention using Perception, Dispel Magic, summons, and also common sense and caution works well too (!),
2) If you remove all traps because the party does not have a dedicated trap-finder, do you then also remove damage if they havent got a healer? or give out more magic items if they cant craft, or suddenly take out pits, chasms, clefts etc, if they forgot to buy rope/grappling hooks/ways of flying etc ?

Where is the challenge in that then?


What I like to do when I don't have trap finders is to put a type of trap that can be worked around. Like a spiked pit trap, for the characters that can't make the jump I place dungeon terrain that can be used as a makeshift balance beam.


i'm absolutely right with Lord of Muck; and i surely prefer a GM who doesn't get mad for reading and applying all the rules how they're write on the book (yeah, epic actions come!).

For this campaign we don't use traits, so i've not the possibility to gain disable device from em.

ACG is permitted, so no problem on playing one of these classes, but i've to say, for what i've already read about, they seems yummy, but i don't know if those classes are really effective and balanced (i've still seen a Beta).

@Daniel Thrace: First of all i'm not choosing instead of Friend who plays the summoner, so i think the choice on "how to make his Eidolon" is right to him.
If i need an Eidolon has a trap finder, i surely play a summoner then :).

So my party lack in Arcane Magic? We never noticed that...never had problems.


Orthodox Banjoist wrote:

@Daniel Thrace: First of all i'm not choosing instead of Friend who plays the summoner, so i think the choice on "how to make his Eidolon" is right to him.

If i need an Eidolon has a trap finder, i surely play a summoner then :).

Depending on what level you are, your summoner can use his lower level spell slots for summon monster I which lasts much longer than for other casters. He doesn't need his eidolon for that, and it does cost some resources to heal it, so I wouldn't use the eidolon to spring traps.

Orthodox Banjoist wrote:
So my party lack in Arcane Magic? We never noticed that...never had problems.

Well, the summoner is almost a full arcane caster, but with a narrower spell list. As to whether you need an arcane caster, it depends on your level. At low level a party full of fighters will do pretty well; you just need a bit of healing. What level are you, BTW?

But with a Paladin, a Calavier, a Ranger, a Cleric, and an Eidolon in the party, you probably don't want to play a front-line fighter character; the front line is probably pretty crowded already. If you did play a rogue you probably would want to play a ranged archer type. A full arcane caster though can also stand in the back and be pretty effective.

Peet

Sovereign Court

If ACG is permitted, maybe an Investigator?


If no trapfinder should mean no traps should no healer mean no damage? I must disagree with Paizo here and say it is a DM’s right (if not quite duty) to hit parties with traps. In fact, I’ve sometimes seen an opposite effect where DMs in a game with a Rogue or Arcane Trickster don’t bother putting in traps since they know somebody will just find and disarm them, “wasting time” and giving the party “free XP” (at least that’s how some DMs seem to feel)

If the OP wanted to try the Master Summoner archetype with a trap finding low power eidolon that might be a lot of fun. For combat you’d summon in monsters of the SM list while the other Summoner would probably use his full power eidolon. You’d have plenty of arcane spells plus various ways to deal with traps. Since Ryzoken is correct that you can find but not disable magical traps without trap finding you could probably just learn Dispel Magic to handle that (or send in a low level summoned monster)

At mid to high levels Summoners can also bring in quite a lot of healing via Azatas and other outsiders.


Devilkiller wrote:
If no trapfinder should mean no traps should no healer mean no damage? I must disagree with Paizo here and say it is a DM’s right (if not quite duty) to hit parties with traps. In fact, I’ve sometimes seen an opposite effect where DMs in a game with a Rogue or Arcane Trickster don’t bother putting in traps since they know somebody will just find and disarm them, “wasting time” and giving the party “free XP” (at least that’s how some DMs seem to feel)

Meh. Traps are two dice rolls and some damage that only 1 player can participate in besides setting off the trap through magic or other means.

I think they're a poor game mechanic at best.


If the party doesn't have a trap finder everybody gets to "participate" in the trap. Like I said though, it is when there's a PC who finds traps that most DMs I've seen tend to drop traps from the adventure (perhaps for the reasons you've mentioned)

It can be helpful to put traps in or near combat so that PCs run into them without searching and have to deal with their effects while also fighting monsters. Using crit cards for traps can be another way to keep their effects interesting.


Devilkiller wrote:

If the party doesn't have a trap finder everybody gets to "participate" in the trap. Like I said though, it is when there's a PC who finds traps that most DMs I've seen tend to drop traps from the adventure (perhaps for the reasons you've mentioned)

It can be helpful to put traps in or near combat so that PCs run into them without searching and have to deal with their effects while also fighting monsters. Using crit cards for traps can be another way to keep their effects interesting.

So...deal with the trap anyways even if you have a dedicated trap buster or get hit by traps even harder if you can't.

O.o


ACG is permitted, but i think can be already unbalanced, so i try to avoid...

Master summoner seems a good alternative, i will think of that


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Orthodox Banjoist wrote:

ACG is permitted, but i think can be already unbalanced, so i try to avoid...

Master summoner seems a good alternative, i will think of that

Did you just call the ACG potentially unbalanced and then went on with considering the master summoner? Really?


You can do what my group once did...they had a cleric, paladin, sorcerer, wizard and monk and then noticed they had nothing remotely rogue-like. So the pally just went on point and took whatever there was. Of course they did look around and used detect magic/detect traps occasionally (no point in being stupid), but the tank was actually the lightning rod. If they were certain there was a trap and could not get rid of it by other means, he stepped in and did what they thought would trigger it.

It is of course different if you do that with 2 arcane casters behind you or without. Featherfall alone has seen quite a lot of uses during that campaign.

All the past reminiscences aside, I agree that the group above would profit by a full arcane caster. It is a tough choice in PF, and I am really torn between sorcerer and wizard, but I would probably go with the wizard.


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Scavion wrote:

Meh. Traps are two dice rolls and some damage that only 1 player can participate in besides setting off the trap through magic or other means.

I think they're a poor game mechanic at best.

Ah then my friend, you haven't run in the classic days with dungeon chock full or deadly and fun Gygaxian traps, such as Tomb of Horrors. Ah those were the days. You guys have been spoiled by Pathfinder APs, where indeed traps are mostly "weak sauce". "Just take the hit" doesn't work if "the hit" teleports the PC nude into a pit full of nasties.

I am a proponent of the Rogue class*, but with those tanks (who need boosting) and no arcane caster, then yes, go for the Archaeologist bard.

While it true that things like summoned critters can find a few traps (and are even the best way to disarm a few) and diabolical DM worth his salt can easily design traps that will foil that idea.

For example, a chest full of scrolls soaked in oil with a explosive runes spell.

* of course!


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@DrDeth
It is the more involved traps, that will get the party. Exploding chests are fine for undead or summoned minions...you must get them personally involved.

Take this security setup for a high level caster:
You find a small room with a door like Fort Knox that opens easily. Opposite you see another such door and a set of runes next to it and the room is empty. If anyone is looking, he can see no magic, the runes are merely symbols. Once seen closely, they are buttons. The opposite door can only be opened if the first one has been closed. After closing it, an antimagic field activates and covers the room. Now you have 1 minute to enter the correct combination with the rune buttons. If you fail to do so, the trap activates to eliminate the intruder.
What the trap actually does can differ...poison gas, moving walls or ceiling or a 100' drop into acid or a piranha tank are all possibilities. If the AM field expires to allow a magical attack or not is also a factor.

(You can also insert "teleport gate" for the opposite door. In another variant the gate will lead to an unpleasant place if the wrong code was pressed, like the Negative Plane.)

There are many ways to get around that setup, but summoned critters won't.

Btw, I can use some ideas what to do with a rogue...I cannot think of much more than a rogue/fighter, split according to purpose, Conan to Grey Mouser so to speak.


DrDeth wrote:

For example, a chest full of scrolls soaked in oil with a explosive runes spell.

That won't burn unless you add an ignition source - Explosive Runes do force damage. They will turn the scrolls into confetti, though.

Fire Trap should get you the effect you're looking for.


Ryzoken wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
Remember that you only need 1 level of a class with trapfinding to find magical traps.
Fairly certain you need Trapfinding to disable magic traps, not find them.

This, this, this. So much this.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Urban Ranger gives basically full Rogue abilities, but with the combat power of a full BAB martial.

I recommend either a finesse melee, or an archer, as Dex is what you need for the traps themselves.

Still, I note you have a ranger, but two rangers can be built radically differently.


DrDeth wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Meh. Traps are two dice rolls and some damage that only 1 player can participate in besides setting off the trap through magic or other means.

I think they're a poor game mechanic at best.

Ah then my friend, you haven't run in the classic days with dungeon chock full or deadly and fun Gygaxian traps, such as Tomb of Horrors. Ah those were the days. You guys have been spoiled by Pathfinder APs, where indeed traps are mostly "weak sauce". "Just take the hit" doesn't work if "the hit" teleports the PC nude into a pit full of nasties.

I am a proponent of the Rogue class*, but with those tanks (who need boosting) and no arcane caster, then yes, go for the Archaeologist bard.

While it true that things like summoned critters can find a few traps (and are even the best way to disarm a few) and diabolical DM worth his salt can easily design traps that will foil that idea.

For example, a chest full of scrolls soaked in oil with a explosive runes spell.

* of course!

3.5 had more robust traps. Even so, the most deadly trap I faced in 3.5 was one that couldn't be disabled so...yeah, the Rogue really wasn't much use there. My opinion is based on what I know of Pathfinder. Usually these "diabolical" traps a DM comes up with are homebrew and don't follow the Trap Creation rules which aren't exactly well designed since a DC100 Perception check trap increases the CR+3 but you can make the Disable Device check below 15 and get a -1 CR. So a Rogue's ability to find it traps is effectively negated by the Trap creation rules themselves with relative ease.

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