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One problem with changing someone's race to add diversity is that there's a certain contingent of people who translate any criticism of the character into racism. On the IMDb board for the show, any vague criticism of Iris is immediately branded proof that the poster is a member of the KKK. I personally find her pretty damn clichéd and boring.
Not a big fan of Iris, but mostly because of the way they write the character. The chick is really very not bad looking.
I like having Jesse L. Martin's character more, although he's made up for the TV series. Mostly because I like Jesse L. Martin - been a minor fan ever since he was on Law and Order.
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Well, the green implies Sgt Fury, not SHIELD agent/Director Fury, but he didn't have a mustache either. Usually unshaven, but not a mustache.To me, Fury was always white, with a mustache, perpetually smoking and wearing green.Mustache? Wearing green? I think you're mixing Nick Fury with General Ross.
The one from the Punisher side scroller :D That was my first contact with Marvel.
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So if Ronnie or Stein get busy, does the other one feel it as well? Awkward.
I mused on the fact that maybe Stein would benefit from Ronnie's youthful exuberance, and Ronnie would likewise benefit from Stein's... experience.
And then I shook my head and thought this was the exact reason the writers decided to have them leave.
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I should never post late at night. Looking back at it, my earlier post was clearly more inflamatory than I had intended and I would like to appologize for it.
What I had meant to say was that people thoughout history have always had a tendancy to project themselves onto their heroes and gods and it would be very easy to see Norsemen conveniently forgetting that the Heimdale that once visted them wasn't nordic.
better example would have been how Checkov in Star Trek always claimed everyone famous was Russian
now this is interesting. No official title for it yet but it sounds like Brave and the Bold the TV series.
Could actually be a really good way to expand the DC TV universe without burying us in a multitude of spin-off shows.
looking at some interesting stuff coming up
Pretty excited to see Trickster and man LOL at the old costume
Love Firestorm and actually seeing a (super) ally.
People are just starting to dislike Iris now? LOL
This.I actually like Iris. She and the actor playing Barry really don't seem to have much chemistry though.
I think the most chemistry they have shown on screen is when she was jealous of him.
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I think the most chemistry they have shown on screen is when she was jealous of him.
That was my first hint that the actress, who I don't think I've ever seen on anything before, might actually have some degree of talent. Specifically, the moment where Barry cancels something with her because of Linda, and she manages a look that just screams "Why is he not hanging on my every word?!?!?"
I think the most chemistry they have shown on screen is when she was jealous of him.That was my first hint that the actress, who I don't think I've ever seen on anything before, might actually have some degree of talent. Specifically, the moment where Barry cancels something with her because of Linda, and she manages a look that just screams "Why is he not hanging on my every word?!?!?"
Yeah. I think the actress can act, but she hasn't had much to work with. She can do subtle emotions and doesn't come across as overacting like she is in a soap. The problem is that aside from Barry's crush and obsession with the Flash, she isn't being developed as a character on her own.That changed some these last few episodes.
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And so....
What an excellent episode. Where to start....
I loved the Thawne revelation, and how he killed Cisco. Don't get me wrong, I've grown to like Cisco. But that was a cool death scene, overall. Interesting thing about (a)him being trapped in that timeline for 15 years, and (b)the claim that killing Nora Allen was not something he was trying to do. That, instead, he was trying to kill Barry. I look forward to seeing where this can lead.
I have not been a big fan of the Barry/Iris relationship, but they did it justice last night. I loved the way he made his revelation to her. Not that it means anything, since apparently he then traveled back in time and merged with his self from a few days before so he can change a bunch of stuff.
But I'm still not liking the way they seem to have introduced Linda, just as a spring board to the Barry/Iris relationship. Will they then just cast her off, much like they did Wally West in the comics (who, by then, had been THE Flash for nearly 20 years, until Didio and friends reclaimed their childhood by resurrecting Barry Allen and memory holing Wally, but I'm not bitter or anything).
I enjoyed the new Weather Wizard. I like how he had much greater control of his powers.
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That episode!!!!
WOW!!!!
Aberz
Also
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Iris West, Laurel from Green Arrow and Barbara and Fish from Gotham should get together and do a spin off of their own. It would be called The Unlikeables. Also G R O D D!!!
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I don't think we need to worry too much about Cisco just yet
Several possible points of divergence to be exploited in the next episode, some of which may be mutually exclusive. The bowling alley scene(s), the coroner's murder by Mark Martin, Wells & Cisco watching an old Buster Keaton movie, all that should be fixed and unalterable.
Starting at 6:20 when Barry is running alongside himself for the "first" time, Barry can begin making changes, or possibly starting at 06:33 when they both stopped at the same point, saw the clock change from 9:59 to 10:00 and heard the woman screaming about being late. At that point [at least] one Barry ran off to the coroner's office.
7:15 Crime scene at coroner's office. Barry bumps into Capt. Singh and spills coffee on his new suit. If the two Barrys are still merged at this point, he will probably avoid this spill and realize he can change past events. Other than referencing Singh's fiancee, there's really no other reason to have had the coffee spill in the original scene.
7:22 Second later he's talking to Joe, only now he knows a lot more than he did originally and doesn't have to "guess" the coroner was killed by hail.
8:30 Back at STAR labs, pretty much everyone who knows Barry's secret all in the room. Barry making changes here could be complicated but the most likely point would be his side conversation with Wells about seeing himself the night before. Neither version of Barry knows about Wells being [a] Reverse Flash, or killing Cisco so there's no reason not to have that conversation again, only again, Barry knows more this time. Will the knowledge that Barry has broken the time barrier affect any actions Wells takes later in the episode?
10:10. Singh's office. Barry is present but probably wouldn't say anything to Joe until they've left the office and they "go to lunch." This time around, Barry could suggest it instead of Joe.
11:35 Eddie and Iris hash it out over the bowling alley. No reason to see this again since there's no reason it should be any different.
12:30 Joe and Barry in Joe's car. Barry would be ready for Martin's attack this time around and should be able to get to Martin's truck before the lightning strike, nabbing him instead of having to save Joe. But that would be very anticlimactic (also, anit-climatic) so either the writers will find some excuse for it not to happen, or the plot focus will shift entirely away from Martin and onto the consequences of altering the timeline. If the latter, Singh will never confine Joe to his desk, Martin won't show up at the precinct, Singh will never be injured, etc.
15:30 Iris will still get a file from her boss raising suspicions about Wells.
17:45 Iris talks to Barry about Wells and Stagg; Barry mentions it to Caitlin and Cisco. Again, neither version of Barry knows anythings against Wells at this point, so it's hard to see why this should go any differently.
19:45 (originally) Cicso tries to talk to Joe about Wells, but Joe's busy. If Barry nabs Martin out of his pickup the second time around, maybe Joe's not busy and they can actually have this conversation, which might possibly change Cisco's actions down the line.
20:15 (originally) Martin arrives at the precinct to attack Joe. Capt. Singh is badly injured. Again, if Barry captures Martin earlier, this never happens. Pretty much nothing involving Barry or Joe from the original timeline would be the same after this point. Joe doesn't go to Martin's old hideout, never gets taken to the waterfront, there's no tsunami, Barry doesn't reveal his Flash identity to Iris.
22:30 Cisco's conversation with Caitlin about Wells. Could be different based on any change with Cicso's (second iteration) conversation with Joe. But as long as he end up asking Caitlin to keep Wells out of the lab the next day, and repeats his same investigation, he should end up getting killed again. (Assuming Wells did succeed in killing him the first time around, and not triggering his transformation into Vibe.)
26:00 Barry talks to Mason about Wells. But both Barrys remain clueless about Wells's actions in the original timeline so why would he now choose to do anything differently here?
Throughout the whole plot as we saw it, there is no point where Iris, Eddie, Caitlin or Cicso are justified in changing any of their actions except (a) where directly influenced by Barry's changed actions to do so, or (b) if any of them experience a sense of deja vu during the reboot.
The first time through, Barry never actually found out anything to show Wells was bad. He doesn't know Wells effectively revealed himself to Caitlin by disappearing out of his wheelchair at Jitters. He doesn't know Wells killed Cisco. So even on the second pass, his only changes should relate to Martin and to the fact he now knows time travel is possible. I don't see how he'd end up changing anything Wells does.
Preview for next week makes it clear Cisco survives but no indication as to how. And how does wrapping up Martin more quickly result in Snart coming back?
Nice recap D.G.
Hmm.
If, for some reason, Mardon still gets away after the car attack, he could run into Snart & co. trying to research who saved Joe.
In the conversation at the lab, Barry could *ask* Cisco about a weapon to use against Mardon, thereby getting the wand early.
If Barry does tell Wells about the time loop, Wells could contact Mardon.
Finally, it loked like Joe was being threatened by Grodd. Is that a trap by Wells? Use Joe as bait?
And, just a minor issue: why did Mardon attack the coroner. All he really needed to do was check the paper from that day.
I wonder if the series writers are clever enough to write about time travel without turning the whole thing into a confusing mess with no consistent rules...
Time travel/manipulation is one of the most difficult things to include in a story... It's too easy to mess up and create plot holes and the (often deserved) sense that nothing has any consequence, since you can always go back in time and fix things up.
For those very reason, I end up hating most stories about time travel... There are only a few exceptions. Hopefully, this series will join them.
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Rule 1 of time travel: Don't THINK about time travel.
As much as I admire Commander Badass... Time travel is still too much of a mess for me. Any story that includes it has to be extra-entertaining to compensate for the downfalls of that particular trope...
Can I just say I LOVE Tom Cavanagh? He was great way back when in his own series, a nice bright spot on Scrubs and now, as Wells? 99% of this show has just been a fun DC-comic-in-real-life so far. The silly names, the obvious tropes; heck, even the sets are so obviously fake that I just run with it as pure entertainment.
Then there's Cavanagh's Wells.
He's like the one REAL guy living inside a comic book. I FREAKING love it. If anything has ever made me sympathize with a villain its this guy. The rest of the season should just be Flash and Wells, with cameos by Cisco and the Piper for flavor.
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I wonder if the series writers are clever enough to write about time travel without turning the whole thing into a confusing mess with no consistent rules...
Time travel/manipulation is one of the most difficult things to include in a story... It's too easy to mess up and create plot holes and the (often deserved) sense that nothing has any consequence, since you can always go back in time and fix things up.
For those very reason, I end up hating most stories about time travel... There are only a few exceptions. Hopefully, this series will join them.
I think as long as they don't overuse it, we should be ok.
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Very intriguing.....
I enjoyed the return of the Rogues, but had a few problems. I wasn't really impressed with Golden Glider. I mean, seriously, a gun that shoots gold (or turns the air into gold)? And Cisco was just able to whip it up? Just like that? Lame! And I wasn't too crazy about the whole conversation in the woods and Cold knowing Barry's identity. It doesn't make any sense, even for a comic.
I did love that revised scene between Wells/Thawne and Cisco. F*%%ing creepy.
Is it just me, or did Eddie and Barry have more chemistry (even if it was hostile/bromance) than Iris and Barry?
And poor Mason, I guess we know now who's skeleton they were digging up in that preview clip floating around.
Can't wait for next week's episode!
Aberzombie:
Still, Wells/Reverse-Flash/Professor Zoom did get to shove his hand through someone in this episode, after all.
As for Lisa, I thing the gun is better than skates that produce ice to glide on.
I think Glider's gun was more of an Ice Gun with gold dye added.
Cause if Cisco could make a Gun that creates gold from nothing, well....why would he be working anywhere when he can sit back and destroy the global economy from his sofa.
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I think Glider's gun was more of an Ice Gun with gold dye added.
Cause if Cisco could make a Gun that creates gold from nothing, well....why would he be working anywhere when he can sit back and destroy the global economy from his sofa.
That makes a bit more sense. Usually they go into a bit of the "science" behind these weapons, but they didn't for this case. Too much else going on.
That in itself could become a problem for the show - trying to squeeze too much storyline into a single episode, then taking forever to conclude the most simple of storylines.
I did really like the talk between Barry and Cold.
Flash has always had a different relationship with his villains than characters like Batman. DC did a story last year where the Crime syndicate appeared in the New52 universe and Captain Cold found himself up against Jonny Quick. Was a very interesting exchange. He respects the Flash, it's why the Rogues don't do things like
Freeze his legs solid and smash them to a million pieces
Cold didn't have the same respect for Jonny Quick.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think Glider's gun was more of an Ice Gun with gold dye added.
Cause if Cisco could make a Gun that creates gold from nothing, well....why would he be working anywhere when he can sit back and destroy the global economy from his sofa.
Could be a gold 'magic shell' gun, or it could be like Marvel's Chemestro, where stuff changed collapses to dust after a while.
I think Glider's gun was more of an Ice Gun with gold dye added.
Cause if Cisco could make a Gun that creates gold from nothing, well....why would he be working anywhere when he can sit back and destroy the global economy from his sofa.
That makes a bit more sense. Usually they go into a bit of the "science" behind these weapons, but they didn't for this case. Too much else going on.
That in itself could become a problem for the show - trying to squeeze too much storyline into a single episode, then taking forever to conclude the most simple of storylines.
That's why they invented time travel; to fit it all in.
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I love the way Flash deals with his enemies in the comics. Batman, Superman... they were never cops and really have no investment in the system. Sure, Barry was just a lab tech but at least he was in it. When he got powers he realized "Sure, I can duck the cold ray, punch this guy going 400 MPH and knock his jaw out of alignment, but then what? He spends weeks in traction, gets arraigned, does some time where all he thinks about is crime and possibly even breaks out using a homemade cold bomb from chemicals at the prison. He never gets rehabilitated."
For Flash beating up or stopping the Rogues was always secondary. He genuinely wanted to help people. By the time I was reading comics the mantle of the Flash had gone on to Wally who continued to work with Piper. Face it; the Flash is just a nice guy.
I hope they dial more into that with the TV show and dial back the "Creepy stalker of step sister" thing.
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I kinda wish they would kill Iris off, if only so the show could move past the endless pining. But it's a CW drama, so the chances of it moving past endless pining are pretty damn non-existent.
And yes, I realize that Barry Allen ends up with Iris West in the comics. But the show is an adaptation, and shouldn't chain itself to the comic book continuity.
And yes, I realize that Barry Allen ends up with Iris West in the comics. But the show is an adaptation, and shouldn't chain itself to the comic book continuity.
Agreed. Especially when events outside the writers' preconceptions may present alternatives, such as the unpredictable chemistry (or lack thereof) between performers. In this case, Gustin and Panabaker have shown more of it than Gustin and Patton, for instance, and I think that pairing (Barry/Caitlin) may have more legs than Barry/Iris does. Might have less drama, though, which writers hate.
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I wonder if the Captain Cold pledge of no killing is also setting him up to be one of the 7 supers in the new spin off show. Still wondering how they'll get more traditional hero types to work with a criminal like him.
Good catch, there. He is, IIRC, supposed to be part of that show, and I could see a 'no killing' pledge not sitting well with Heat Wave, who is a bit of a 'hothead.'